The dire climate of CA public university admissions for freshmen

[bearishgurl]

Three of my kid’s best friends (all HS Class of 2014) are currently attending Southwestern College (SWC) because SDSU reneged on their “Compact for Success” guaranteed admission promises and they couldn’t afford housing out-of-county. All three of them are currently “waitlisted” for Freshman English and Math.

I don’t know how these kids expect to transfer to university in a timely manner when they can’t even get the core GE’s they need at CC in order to transfer to UC/CSU.

From the looks of things, the CA CC budget cuts are only going to get worse with each passing academic year. All those HS students who had a dream of attending CC for two years and then transfer into UC/CSU as a junior (in order to “save money”) might find themselves attending 3-5 campuses across the county (2 simultaneously in any given semester) for three years or more in order to obtain an Associate of Transfer (Arts) or Associate of Transfer (Science). Those are the only two specific “Associate Degrees” which the CSU is currently accepting for transfer (not sure about UC). Worthless by themselves, these “degrees” are solely comprised of the core 60 units of GE’s needed to transfer into a BA or BS program at the CSU.

http://www.adegreewithaguarantee.com/

http://www.calstate.edu/transfer/degrees/

All the CSU admission rules have changed since Fall 2011 (remediation at the university level is now dwindling to nil). The last of these changes were implemented Fall 2014.

My advice to CA high-school students (and their parents) who aspire to graduate in 4-5 years is:

-Fvck CC. Do what it takes to get admitted to UC/CSU NOW!

-Spare no expense and apply for 8-12 schools using the common apps (or use app fee waivers if qualified for them) ON OR BEFORE November 30 of your senior year. The earliest apps are given more weight in the admissions process.

-DECLARE A MAJOR …. DO NOT APPLY UNDECLARED!

-Get a 4-year plan up front from the school your student accepts an admission offer from. Try to qualify for a “4-year graduation pledge” with those campuses who offer it (likely less impacted campuses). This will enable your student to register for classes for the next quarter/semester 2-6 weeks prior to the masses registering to ensure they get the exact classes they need which are already laid out on their 4-year plan from their orientation date forward.

-Keep an open mind and make sure some of your apps are to INLAND campuses which are LESS impacted due to “presumed” inferior location.

-Parents, don’t think that just because your kid has a ~4.0 GPA that they’re going to be automatically admitted to the CA public campus(es) of their choice. 4.0 is now the new 3.3 in CA. Your seemingly perfect HS student snowflake is not that special to the admissions boards and there are plenty of highly-qualified out-of-state/out-of country applicants willing and able to pay the “full freight” at most CA public university campuses (yes, even “inland” campuses).

-Convince your college-bound kid to apply out of state if you can swing it and they are willing and qualified. The WUE grants 20-30% discounts off non-resident tuition at public universities in its member states (in-state tuition to Alaskans and Hawaiians) and in most of the areas of these (out-of-state) campuses, the lower housing costs make the whole annual college expense just as much or less than in-state tuition, fees, room and board at on near CA campuses, depending on their respective locations.

http://wue.wiche.edu/search_results.jsp?searchType=all

-And of course, if you are a 1-5%er (or your kid has a deep-pocketed benefactor), convince your kid to apply to private schools both in and out of state. They will likely finish in four years and time is money.

-Lastly, if your kid absolutely cannot declare a major while still in HS, have him/her apply to smallish liberal arts public colleges out of state (where they will have up to 3 semesters to make up their minds without penalty) or a private liberal arts college.

FWIW, my last kid has been at their (out-of-county) public university campus now less than a month and already has a 21 hr per week job (off-campus), joined a club related to their major and has been officially “pinned” this week to the Greek organization of their choice. My kid is having the time of their life!

Those with K-12 kids in the pipeline might be interested to learn that the CA public university admissions process has become a very stressful jungle out there! There is no rhyme or reason to it and each campus conducts their three-month “rolling admissions” a little differently (for apps out of their “service areas,” which get special consideration for lower qualifications). Contrary to flu’s ideas he’s posted here previously, I don’t think “the system” can be (easily) gamed, that is … unless an applicant’s parent(s) was an alumni of a particular campus AND a BIG donor.

GOOD LUCK to everyone who has HS seniors applying for college this fall!

Any college admission tips, suggestions, etc are welcome.

[CA renter]

Thank you very much for your insights, BG. We were just talking to some other parents whose kids are in the university system and some whose kids have recently graduated about these issues. You’re right, unfortunately.

It’s a very different world, both at the college and at the professional/career level, than what you and I experienced in our youth. Not good changes, BTW.

[NotCranky]

Great public service post, BG.

How about kids declaring a major and then getting most of it finished and then having a hard time getting the last few classes. How much is that happening.

We know a kid who went through a guaranteed placement from high school into an engineering program. He was apparently kicking butt .Recently I found out that it has been taking him a few years to nail down the last requirements due to lack of classes.

Congrats on your kid doing so well!

[bearishgurl]

All CA CC’s are in the same boat, though I suspect that the more “rural” ones (such as Lake Tahoe CC) have far less students attempting to sign up for the same core GE’s so they can eventually transfer to university. It is a shame that these community institutions can no longer “guarantee” an associate degree in two years for FT students.

They still serve a need for training in the trades (ROP) and administering certificate programs for those who want/need to work FT in a particular field ASAP. Free day care for children is provided for those parents who qualify.

For the university bound, CA CC’s are a crapshoot, at best. It is far better to get accepted to a university ASAP after HS. If the one your student got accepted to is not their first choice, then they can always reapply to their preferred campus ONLY AFTER they finish the core GE’s (60 units for semester schedule or 90 units for quarter schedule) at their current university campus but NOT BEFORE! If they don’t get in at that late date, they should STAY WHERE THEY ARE. They are already “in.” No harm done.

I think too much attention is paid by freshman applicants for UC/CSU to location (often those campuses located at or near the coast) causing severe impaction of all degree programs offered on several campuses.

http://www.calstate.edu/SAS/impactioninfo.shtml

http://www.calstate.edu/sas/impactionsearch/

http://www.calstate.edu/SAS/impaction-campus-info.shtml

Here’s an interesting CSU “service area” recruitment list. Note that there is no mention in it of the “Compact for Success” program in SUHSD (for SDSU). Several other CSU campuses seriously consider their local “service area” freshman applicants using lesser admission standards than the rest of their applicants (out of county, state and country). This is as it should be to ensure university affordability to all freshman (not be forced into pricey on-campus housing contracts).

http://www.calstate.edu/sas/documents/CSULocalAdmission-ServiceAreas.pdf

Just like HS, IT DOESN’T matter where the kid gets his diploma/degree if a particular degree program offers the exact same 4 yr curriculum at several different local HS’s or CSU campuses. It’s really okay to graduate from an “inland” UC or CSU. The new bachelor’s degree graduate can accept their first FT job anywhere they wish (coastal CA or even another state).

[scaredyclassic]

mt san jacinto, cc in riverside, just had a bond measure on the ballot for about 300 million for new facility upgrades.

i voted against, ebcause, i dont know, it looked pretty nice when i went to visit a couple years ago. doesnt seem liek they need a construction project seems like they need to just run more classes with more profs. they’re barely paying these teachers anything. just keep the place running doubletime. am i out of line witht hat suggestion. jeez. you got a room, the library is unebelievably gorgreous, just fucking have some goddamn classes!!!! and stop building shit…and the shamelessness the way the ballot is tied to educating returning veterns.

come on…

ah, i guess it’s ok, dumber ways to spend 300 million than a college renovation

[bearishgurl]

[quote=Blogstar]Great public service post, BG.

How about kids declaring a major and then getting most of it finished and then having a hard time getting the last few classes. How much is that happening.

We know a kid who went through a guaranteed placement from high school into an engineering program. He was apparently kicking butt .Recently I found out that it has been taking him a few years to nail down the last requirements due to lack of classes.

Congrats on your kid doing so well![/quote]

Well thanks, Russ, but my kid hasn’t actually received any grades yet :-P. Social animal that they are, I had to counsel them at length this morning on budgeting properly to make their earnings last longer (their checking acct is tied to mine so I can see what they’re doing with their debit card :=0). I read them the riot act because the dad and me were recently asked to pay the first $400+ installment of “Greek” dues (incl application and initiation fee) when kid had the money several times over since May and blew it. We’ve agreed to cover this first bill and then they’re going to be on their own for the rest (~$500 for the rest of the year).

I had no idea Greek dues had risen this much when we applied online in early September to “rush.” My other kid(s) only paid <$500 for the whole academic year. I also had another discussion with my kid about time management this morning because I feel they are suddenly going to get so busy that their grades will slip, possibly making them ineligible for their continuing scholarship, which I am processing twice yearly. My kid may very well have to scale down to 14 hrs per week of work (two 7-hr shifts as opposed to their current three shifts) when they return to campus in January 2015.

[bearishgurl]

..

[bearishgurl]

[quote=Blogstar]Great public service post, BG.

How about kids declaring a major and then getting most of it finished and then having a hard time getting the last few classes. How much is that happening.

We know a kid who went through a guaranteed placement from high school into an engineering program. He was apparently kicking butt .Recently I found out that it has been taking him a few years to nail down the last requirements due to lack of classes.

Congrats on your kid doing so well![/quote]

Russ, I think I may have posted here a few years ago that I had a kid (a double-major with two business majors) who graduated from SFSU in May 2011 and could not get the last three classes in their senior year that they needed to graduate. They called me in late January of 2011 complaining that they had been crashing classes for a week and couldn’t get in and also could not sign up for the classes they needed online (couldn’t get priority sign up due to mismanagement of scholarship applications which paid the bursar late – that’s why I’m now handling this detail). I spoke to the Dean of the Business School who told me that he had to “lay off” several instructors and not replace several who had retired the previous summer. I told him that it’s not right for juniors to get into the (350+ and 400 level) classes when seniors who have already been in attendance 5-6 years can’t get the classes they need to graduate. He had his assistant find my kid the classes they needed from nearby CSU campuses (Concord and Hayward [CSUEB], who would transfer the credits back to SFSU) and my kid had to pay over $800 (over and above their tuition and fees to SFSU) to take the Hayward class online through their “extension program.” They did so and also attended the Concord campus classes and graduated May 2011. This kid had a great income (~40K) and “rent control” almost all through college. In earning this much, they lost their CalVet waiver for tuition fees, which was worth at that time about $2500 to $3600, but they didn’t care.

College Fee Waiver Program

NOW, the CalVet waiver is worth ~$5475 year at the CSU, payroll taxes are higher and jobs for students are much harder to find. So it is NOT WORTH IT anymore for the student to exceed the income limits, IMO.

My last kid was admitted to SFSU but their major program was impacted there and the SFSU Business School could not guarantee graduation in any of 8 disciplines they offer in even six years. Life is too short to repeat those frustrations so they are currently attending a CSU campus with more room (both classrooms AND open space) and more individual attention in which were very fortunate to be admitted to (considering the competition).

Folks, be prepared to “helicopter” a little bit for your UC/CSU-bound HS kid during the app process and while they’re a freshman. As a former bureaucrat myself, I consider myself a master at cutting through bureaucracy (2013/14 was the first time I tried this, except for the last semester of senior year for the above kid).

So far, so good. Ask me again next year :=0

[bearishgurl]

[quote=scaredyclassic]mt san jacinto, cc in riverside, just had a bond measure on the ballot for about 300 million for new facility upgrades.

i voted against, ebcause, i dont know, it looked pretty nice when i went to visit a couple years ago. doesnt seem liek they need a construction project seems like they need to just run more classes with more profs. they’re barely paying these teachers anything. just keep the place running doubletime. am i out of line witht hat suggestion. jeez. you got a room, the library is unebelievably gorgreous, just fucking have some goddamn classes!!!! and stop building shit…and the shamelessness the way the ballot is tied to educating returning veterns.

come on…

ah, i guess it’s ok, dumber ways to spend 300 million than a college renovation[/quote]

SWC recently completed the multimillion-dollar renovation of Devore Stadium.

http://www.swccd.edu/index.aspx?recordid=708&page=25

Many of the SUHSD schools use SWC’s auditorium and will also use this new stadium due to having no like facilities of their own.

Yes, scaredy, most of the CA CC’s instructors are “adjunct” instructors (who work a FT job elsewhere or are collecting a pension). They are actually paid by the class taught (as a yoga instructor at a gym would be, for example)!

I believe it is the duty of CA CC’s to prepare FT college freshman and sophomores for CA university admission. Since many CC campuses likely can no longer achieve this on a consistent basis with their many (expensive) classrooms sitting empty due to lack of (cheap) staff, it’s well past time to let the cat out of the bag and tell HS seniors the truth: that they would be MUCH better off applying for university NOW and getting the h@ll out of dodge if that’s what it takes to begin university classes right out of HS.

Bakersfield, Merced and Fresno are actually downright cheap to live in! (No, my kid isn’t attending those campuses but has friends that are.) As you know, several other UC/CSU campus locations only have a slightly higher off-campus cost of living than the above three. I’ve seen the recent improvements of Fresno State and the new UC Merced campus and they are both beautiful and state of the art!

Returning veterans should just enroll in UC/CSU (even if they have to move their families near campus). Many already have college credits from their shipboard and field assignments. They don’t need 60 core units to get admitted and can get admitted under different criteria. They have CalVet or Chapter 35 aid and/or the Montgomery GI Plan. Any UC/CSU would be most happy to have them and would assign them their very own personal academic advisor. As it should be.

I can see no good reason for a returning vet to waste their precious time after leaving active duty service (when many already have children to support) playing endless games at a CA CC unless they are dreaming of becoming an auto alignment specialist or going into construction trades.

[joec]

I’ve posted before that if you can go private, do so. I graduated from a “coastal” UC engineering program. As engineering classes 20 years ago have pre-reqs and you need to take them in order (usually), if you get a C- in any class, you’re guaranteed to stay another year since you need to retake it and they are only offered once a year and never during the summer.

For a UC system where some of your upper division engr classes are curved, this means 1/3 of the class will stay another year or drop out of the program.

Something to consider if you do a STEM major.

All that said, I think “UC” schools aren’t that great and if given the choice or if your kid has the choice, go to a nice private/ivy/stanford/cal-tech/mit/harvey mudd school/program.

I think the kids in those schools will be the future leaders of America and it’s best to be friends with those people.

Also, trying to get hired at the top tech companies or any company is easier at the Ivy’s I feel. Connections are worth a lot more to getting ahead, especially if you want to eventually leave the worker bee/engineer/tech/worker type field and move up to management. You can do a search for Fortune 500 CEOs and many come from elite universities due to connections. A lot of the UC students, I assume tend to be immigrant families (I was one) just looking to be a worker bee, etc…since that’s what their parents did/know/etc…

With grants/loans for kids who are great, a lot of private schools will also cover a lot more expenses now so you may pay a similar amount or even less than a UC or CSU school.

My 2 cents.

[bearishgurl]

Here’s an alternative to (impacted) UC/CSU campuses for your college-bound engineering major, folks.

ASU is now offering a 38.5% WUE discount off out-of-state tuition on three campuses for 33 BS majors (predominantly engineering) and 3 BA majors. The BS majors offered there are all in very employable fields!

How much would I save with WUE?
Resident tuition: $9484
Nonresident tuition: $23136
WUE rate (Resident x 150%): $14226
WUE Savings: $8910

Important: The rates shown are taken from WICHE’s Annual Tuition and Fees Report for AY2013 – 14 and do not include fees. Actual tuition rates may vary. These rates assume 30 credit hours per year. We strongly encourage you to verify these rates with the admissions office where you want to enroll.

http://wue.wiche.edu/profile.jsp?id=202

ASU is currently offering about 28 more majors (with a much larger WUE discount) than when I first heard about this program about four years ago!

I have a relative who is a retired HS teacher from the PHX area. She told me that most rural and semi-rural HS students in AZ do not have the qualifications to get admitted to university because they attended HS’s on Native American Indian reservations where the HS dropout rate is high. Although public outreach to convince tribal kids to graduate HS has been in place for several years, some of the tribal-member students and their families do not place a high priority on HS graduation.

Thus, the generous WUE offerings to out-of-state students by ASU, which was one of the first institutions to join the agreement.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=joec]I’ve posted before that if you can go private, do so. I graduated from a “coastal” UC engineering program. As engineering classes 20 years ago have pre-reqs and you need to take them in order (usually), if you get a C- in any class, you’re guaranteed to stay another year since you need to retake it and they are only offered once a year and never during the summer.

For a UC system where some of your upper division engr classes are curved, this means 1/3 of the class will stay another year or drop out of the program.

Something to consider if you do a STEM major.

All that said, I think “UC” schools aren’t that great and if given the choice or if your kid has the choice, go to a nice private/ivy/stanford/cal-tech/mit/harvey mudd school/program.

I think the kids in those schools will be the future leaders of America and it’s best to be friends with those people.

Also, trying to get hired at the top tech companies or any company is easier at the Ivy’s I feel. Connections are worth a lot more to getting ahead, especially if you want to eventually leave the worker bee/engineer/tech/worker type field and move up to management. You can do a search for Fortune 500 CEOs and many come from elite universities due to connections. A lot of the UC students, I assume tend to be immigrant families (I was one) just looking to be a worker bee, etc…since that’s what their parents did/know/etc…

With grants/loans for kids who are great, a lot of private schools will also cover a lot more expenses now so you may pay a similar amount or even less than a UC or CSU school.

My 2 cents.[/quote]

I agree, joec, but the ivies, Caltech, USC and Claremont Colleges, for example require big loans for most students and parents at some point in their college “career” (if not from day one), greatly hampering the graduate’s ability to get on with their lives after graduation (marriage, kids, home, newer vehicles, etc). Scholarship money is never guaranteed for the entire four years (while the tuition goes up).

My kid(s) were successful in life and can/will be able to support themselves solely BECAUSE they didn’t and will not take out any student loans.

The community work and charitable fund-raising that students who belong to Greek organizations do exposes them to possible internships and later, job interviews due to the “deep pocketed” and “well-connected” individuals who run the charitable organizations and regular interaction with their many regular donors. Becoming a Greek is a way for a kid to get a leg up in life where if they would have stayed home and gone to CC with their HS friends (many of whom they have known all their lives), they would have likely had a much different outcome, including early marriage and children … or just children. A university sophomore, junior or senior attending and out-of-county campus only has to visit their home turf and HS friends around holidays to observe the life they (unwittingly and unplanned) created for themselves.

For the 1-5%er parents or (qualified) kid with a benefactor, the expensive private colleges are a no brainer.

[CA renter]

[quote=scaredyclassic]mt san jacinto, cc in riverside, just had a bond measure on the ballot for about 300 million for new facility upgrades.

i voted against, ebcause, i dont know, it looked pretty nice when i went to visit a couple years ago. doesnt seem liek they need a construction project seems like they need to just run more classes with more profs. they’re barely paying these teachers anything. just keep the place running doubletime. am i out of line witht hat suggestion. jeez. you got a room, the library is unebelievably gorgreous, just fucking have some goddamn classes!!!! and stop building shit…and the shamelessness the way the ballot is tied to educating returning veterns.

come on…

ah, i guess it’s ok, dumber ways to spend 300 million than a college renovation[/quote]

Preach it, scaredy!

I’d add that colleges/universities should not be focusing so much of their money on athletics (especially if they’re a net drain on university finances) if students are not able to get all the classes they need. ALL resources should be dedicated to academics first, IMO.

[scaredyclassic]

fucking sports. it’s sick

first we keep kids in chairs too long for their entire schooling, like calves destined to become veal.

and then we lavish attention ont he fastest and strongest ones and let them run around and build stadiums.

i could vomit.

VOMIT!

[NotCranky]

Talked with some people today at a birthday party, both working SDSU students so few classes, classes offered only once a year so they are finding it very rough to work and finish school. They have to dump work to get the classes.

If a student had to retake anything, I guess that can be a huge setback. Of course none of our kids will ever have to retake anything.

[Author]

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