- This topic has 194 replies, 28 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 8 months ago by
ocrenter.
-
AuthorPosts
-
March 4, 2014 at 1:12 AM #771480March 4, 2014 at 1:48 AM #771483
CoronitaParticipant[quote=ocrenter]
+1
signed the petitions and writing e-mail to my assemblymember.
already a victim of affirmative action back in the early 90’s, not about to see it happen with my kid too.[/quote]
You know….When I was going through school. I wasn’t like all the other kids in my class, asian or caucasian…A lot of them were really smart and didn’t need to “study” that much… In a lot of ways, I probably (by today’s standards) had a learning disability.
In elementary, those “joke” standardized Iowa tests, most kids I knew consistently scored 90% and above, I was down there around in the 56% percentile. And I had a reading comprehension problem all the way throughout high school… I couldn’t read fast(er), and it would literally take me 1/2 hr to get through 20 pages or so….I had to work twice as much as the average kid to achieve the same level of competence as everyone else. But on the surface, no one could tell the difference since I liked what I did and even if it was hard, I stuck doing it.
It was a real shocker when I got into pedigree ivy college, and when I got there even more shocking that it would have been far easier if
1) My parents had money
or
2) I was one of those protected minoritiesSo in short, so yeah I totally get where you’re coming from….Been there done that, and yeah, ain’t gonna let this happen to my kid without a bloody fight…
A lot of asians have(d )the thought process that the status quo is that well, as long as my kid does better than your kid (that is also asian), it’s not my problem…. It appears these folks are finally getting what a big problem it really is…And that’s a good thing..
I don’t think anyone is even asking for anything close to preferential treatment. I think what people are asking for is a level playing field…
Anyway, I’m done writing a dozen or so letters, and soliciting for a dozen or so organizations to pass the word around tonight…
And a few of the folks here that signed the petition as a result of this original thread I started, I’m very greatful that you took the time to do it. Thank you… Good night.
March 4, 2014 at 2:00 AM #771484CA renter
Participant[quote=AN][quote=CA renter]Students/job seekers are being fed the myth that *they* are the problem, when (IMO) the problem is our global economic system. We have an oversupply of labor, globally-speaking, and demand for the goods and services being sold is drying up in many cases. So now, parents are expected to shell out upwards of six figures for their children’s educations without any guarantee of a decent job…or even if the decent job exists today, no guarantee that the specialized training will be able to qualify that person for a job in another field if the job market should change.[/quote]Really? Upward of 6 figures? CSU tuition are only ~$6k/year while UC are about $12k/year. That’s hardly 6 figures. Now, if you waste your money on private school for a degree that doesn’t pay, well, that’s essentially your own fault for wasting that money. No one forces you to pay $40k/year for a BA in underwater basket weaving.
[quote=CA renter]And let’s just consider for a moment what would happen if *everybody* got an engineering degree. What would happen to wages for those job applicants? Would our economy, or the job market, be any better off? If we compare the “innovations” of the past few years with the innovations from our “glory days” in the 1940s-1960s, we’re not doing so well. If Facebook is what we consider to be innovation and progress, then we’re in serious trouble, IMHO.[/quote]There’s much more than just Facebook. How about iPhone, Android phones, iPad, autonomous cars, drones, computing power that far exceed desktop computers from 10 years ago in the palm of your hand, 24/7 connectivity, ability to communicate and see people across the globe, voice recognition, nano-tech, biotech, etc. I can go on and on and on. You seriously need to open your eyes if you think Facebook is the only innovation we got in the last few years.
As for if everyone has an engineering degree, you fail to see that it’s not a zero sum game. Even more start ups will occur and maybe we’ll find new markets and new innovations. Maybe we’ll have EV cars that can drive 1000 miles and cellphones that’ll last a month. Maybe we’ll have a cure for cancer and AIDS. Maybe we’ll be able to do things we never would have thought of.[/quote]I agree that CSU is relatively inexpensive, especially if the students live at home (which is what we’re planning to do), but for students who want to attend a private university, or a university that specializes in a particular major (can’t live at home), the costs increase quite a bit.
According to the CSU Standard Student Expense Budget (and I think their estimates are on the conservative side), the *current* annual cost for a student to attend college is $15K-$16K if they live at home, $20K-$24K if they live on campus, and $22K-$24K if they live off campus. If the student attends only four years, the cost will run between $60K and $96K for just a B.A./B.S. If they aren’t able to get all of their classes when they need them, or if they change majors, or if they pursue an advanced degree, the costs go up from there. And this is basically the least expensive option.
http://www.calstate.edu/sas/costofattendance/documents/2013-14COA.pdf
We must also note that today’s “in” major could very well be tomorrow’s over-saturated major when everyone rushes to get the same degree and/or the job market shifts. Look at what’s happened to nursing, for instance. So people might start out in the “right” major, only to enter a saturated job market with few prospects. That’s every bit as “worthless” as an underwater basket weaving degree, especially if the major is highly specialized, so it can’t really transfer easily (one of the benefits of a liberal arts major).
———
As for those innovations, while I respect the fact that many people are in love with their iPhones, the main innovation was getting a mobile phone into a person’s hand. That was done well before this past decade. Navigation is cool, but the rest is just “fluff” as far as I’m concerned. We had notebook/laptop computers decades ago, so the iPad isn’t such a big deal, IMO. And 24/7 connectivity is as much a burden as it is a blessing. We had voice recognition decades ago, TV cards for computers were available back then, too. And “Picturephones”/teleconferencing was available decades ago, as well. There have been some advances in biotech, but with cancer, for instance, we’re still using many of the same drugs and treatments that we were using decades ago. Drones???? Don’t get me started on drones! 🙁
Sorry, but I’m just not seeing the life-altering innovations that you seem to be seeing. Of course, I’ll admit that you are more tech-focused than I am, so you’re more likely to notice the incremental changes that might be a big deal to you (and others like you), but not nearly as impressive to me (and others like myself).
I also think you greatly underestimate the extent to which our economy IS zero-sum.
March 4, 2014 at 2:13 AM #771486ParticipantHere’s an article about the dismal job market for new lawyers — historically, a very “useful” degree.
Now, in fairness, Burk concedes that the jobs available will not be “top dollar” jobs. But in my experience, telling prospective law students they won’t make “top dollar” is one thing, telling them they won’t be able to take the jobs available without needing government financial assistance to pay their debts is quite another.
March 4, 2014 at 2:22 AM #771487ParticipantAnd I believe that there are some issues in medicine, too. That’s hardly a “worthless degree.”
The Medscape survey documents declining compensation in a number of specialties, like general surgery, which is down 12%, orthopedic surgery, down 10% and radiology, also down 10%.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2012/04/27/why-do-so-many-doctors-regret-their-job-choice/
March 4, 2014 at 2:35 AM #771488ParticipantBut there’s at least one group that has done very well for themselves over the past few decades!
We’ve made progress on a lot of things since the 1950s and so have CEOs — in their quest for more money that is.
The ratio of CEO-to-worker pay has increased 1,000 percent since 1950, according to data from Bloomberg. Today Fortune 500 CEOs make 204 times regular workers on average, Bloomberg found. The ratio is up from 120-to-1 in 2000, 42-to-1 in 1980 and 20-to-1 in 1950.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/30/ceo-to-worker-pay-ratio_n_3184623.html
March 4, 2014 at 2:37 AM #771489ParticipantSo, how are we supposed to guide tomorrow’s generation? Or, do we overhaul the system so that it works better for the greatest possible number of people?
March 4, 2014 at 5:22 AM #771490flyer
ParticipantCAR, I don’t think there is any definitive answer as to how to guide future generations. We can all try to make “educated guesses,” but, with so many variables in life, there will never be any guarantees–regardless of the path one’s child chooses.
I think a step in the right direction would be for the masses to stop believing education necessarily “guarantees” one a better or even perfect life. In some cases it may, in others, it may not–you make your bets and you take your chances.
IMO that “guarantee” is a myth many Americans (and others) have been sold for reasons that, should I share my thoughts, might be construed as bordering on a conspiracy theory–so I won’t elaborate–but let’s not
forget–education is as as much a “business,” as any other “for-profit” endeavor–and the more “buyers” the merrier.The choices we, and our kids made happened to have worked out as planned, but, even though we crossed every “t” and dotted every “i” to the best of our abilities, we knew it could have been otherwise.
That said, and, again, only IMO, every individual and family should be honest with themselves concerning the abilities of their children, as well as their own resources, before they commit to, and invest, in any particular path for their children.
At that point, you can only hope you have made the right decision(s),and, unfortunately, nothing but time will prove if the right choices were made.
March 4, 2014 at 5:39 AM #771491CoronitaParticipantBump… How the fvck did this thread go from this topic….
[quote=ocrenter][quote=flu]For folks that are interested in writing to your congressman, but aren’t sure what to write, here’s a tip/sample letter…
Enough said…
[img_assist|nid=17929|title=no on sca 5|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=461|height=600][/quote]
Dude, you need to mail this letter to that Hernandez clown. That’s powerful, flu, you should be proud.[/quote]
…to this….a rant about CEO’s pay????Talk about thread hijack….
[quote=CA renter]But there’s at least one group that has done very well for themselves over the past few decades!
We’ve made progress on a lot of things since the 1950s and so have CEOs — in their quest for more money that is.
The ratio of CEO-to-worker pay has increased 1,000 percent since 1950, according to data from Bloomberg. Today Fortune 500 CEOs make 204 times regular workers on average, Bloomberg found. The ratio is up from 120-to-1 in 2000, 42-to-1 in 1980 and 20-to-1 in 1950.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/30/ceo-to-worker-pay-ratio_n_3184623.html%5B/quote%5D
But I’ll stretch…CEO’s wouldn’t dare to pass a blatantly discriminatory law as some of our most racists politicians would…. Funny how people continue to attack CEOs, and wealthy and redirect the real root of the problem, while the biggest threat to equality is staring right in front of them…
Of course, I guess for some (not all) if you’re not affected by these ridiculous prejudice laws, I guess it doesn’t matter to you.. So I guess for some, we haven’t learned anything for the past 50 years about civil rights and basic principles of right versus wrong….They might move an entire company to a lower cost area, and in the process screw everyone at the company under, but it’s not personal it’s business. It’s not targeted because you are white, black, hispanic, and/or asian…
But whatever…. IF you think these STEM jobs or what have you aren’t important enough for your kids, then fine… Please give tell your kids not to bother to apply so people who really do want them have a better chance…Because I’m sure there are plenty of people who would want them…
March 4, 2014 at 5:55 AM #771492CoronitaParticipant….this will be a constitutional issue eventually…
It’s unavoidable..http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/24/politics/scotus-texas-affirmative-action/
Washington (CNN) — The Supreme Court sidestepped a sweeping decision on the use of race-conscious school admission policies, ruling Monday on the criteria at the University of Texas and whether it violates the equal protection rights of some white applicants.
The justices threw the case back to the lower courts for further review. The court affirmed the use of race in the admissions process, but made it harder for institutions to use such policies to achieve diversity. The 7-1 decision avoids the larger constitutional issues.Abigail Noel Fisher individually sued the flagship state university after her college application was rejected in 2008 when she was a high school senior in Sugar Land, Texas. She claims it was because she is white and that she was being treated differently than some less-qualified minority students who were accepted.
In a statement after the ruling Fisher said, “I am grateful to the justices for moving the nation closer to the day when a student’s race isn’t used at all in college admissions.”
The decision comes as the justices work toward wrapping up a busy term.
Among the big issues yet to be resolved: federal enforcement of the Voting Rights Act and the politically blockbuster constitutionality of same-sex marriage.
The Supreme Court plans to meet again on Tuesday to issue additional opinions.
In the Texas case, the school defended its policy of considering race as one of many factors, such as test scores, community service, leadership, and work experience, designed to create a diverse campus.
University encouraged by decision
The university said it was encouraged by the decision.
“We remain committed to assembling a student body at The University of Texas at Austin that provides the educational benefits of diversity on campus while respecting the rights of all students and acting within the constitutional framework established by the court,” said school President Bill Powers.
The Obama administration agreed with the school, saying to grow a nation built on differing complexions and backgrounds will depend on future leaders “who possess the understanding of diversity that is necessary to govern and defend the United States.”
In ruling narrowly, the court reaffirmed earlier decisions allowing for a limited use of race-conscious public policies.
“The attainment of a diverse student body serves values beyond race alone, including enhanced classroom dialogue and the lessening of racial isolation and stereotypes,” wrote Justice Anthony Kennedy in the majority opinion.
Ex-student challenges university’s affirmative action policy
But Kennedy said that such admissions programs must withstand close review.
Kennedy said the “university must prove that the means chosen” to attain diversity “are narrowly tailored to that goal,” adding that the highest level of legal standard must be met before institutions use diversity programs.
“Strict scrutiny (of the policy) imposes on the university the ultimate burden of demonstrating, before turning to racial classification, that available, workable race-neutral alternatives do not suffice,” he said.
The Supreme Court in recent decades has established a three-pronged test to balance the government’s interest against a constitutional right or principle, and decide which laws may go too far. These standards of review are rational basis scrutiny, heightened scrutiny, and strict scrutiny.
Kennedy said the appropriate standard was not applied properly by the lower federal courts in the Fisher case.
He said state universities must demonstrate to the courts that no workable race-neutral alternatives would produce the desired educational and social benefits.
Justices Stephen Breyer and Sonia Sotomayor, who are more left-leaning, agreed with the Supreme Court’s five conservatives.
Justices Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas also agreed with the limited reach of the ruling, but separately suggested continuing use of diversity programs in the classroom were unconstitutional.
“Although cloaked in good intentions, the university’s racial tinkering harms the very people it claims to be helping,” said Thomas, the court’s only African-American, who himself benefited from affirmative action programs early in his academic and professional career.
Only Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg disagreed with the majority’s conclusion lower courts should take another look at the Fisher case.
“Government actors need not be blind to to the lingering effects of an overtly discriminatory past,” she said. “I have said before and reiterate here that only an ostrich could regard the supposedly neutral alternative as race unconscious.”
Justice Elena Kagan did not participate in the case because she apparently had been briefed on the issue as the Obama administration’s solicitor general before joining the high court.The justices said in 2003 that state universities can, in limited circumstances, tailor their admissions policies to consider an applicant’s race.
And this court was clearly divided along ideological lines during last October’s oral arguments about whether affirmative action essentially has run its social and legal course, and should no longer be used in the way schools like the Texas university has done.
The state of Texas provides for a hybrid admissions policy: Automatic acceptance to its university’s main campus in Austin for in-state students finishing in the top 10 percent of their high schools, ensuring a measure of non-subjective diversity. Three-fourths of the in-state student body get in this way.
Fisher just missed that opportunity, so had to compete in a separate pool of students seeking to attend the highly competitive school. It is that selection process that was before the court.
The school, with 52,000 students, has touted its “holistic” policy of considering race as one of many factors.
African-Americans in Texas as a whole represent about 12 percent of the overall population, but only make up about 5 or 6 percent of University of Texas admissions.
The high court will get another crack at the issue this fall in a separate appeal.
The justices will decide the constitutionality of a voter referendum in Michigan banning race- and sex-based discrimination or preferential treatment in public university admission decisions. Oral arguments are likely in October.
The case is Fisher v. University of Texas at Austin (11-345).
March 4, 2014 at 6:10 AM #771493ocrenter
Participant[quote=flu][quote=ocrenter]
+1
signed the petitions and writing e-mail to my assemblymember.
already a victim of affirmative action back in the early 90’s, not about to see it happen with my kid too.[/quote]
You know….When I was going through school. I wasn’t like all the other kids in my class, asian or caucasian…A lot of them were really smart and didn’t need to “study” that much… In a lot of ways, I probably (by today’s standards) had a learning disability.
In elementary, those “joke” standardized Iowa tests, most kids I knew consistently scored 90% and above, I was down there around in the 56% percentile. And I had a reading comprehension problem all the way throughout high school… I couldn’t read fast(er), and it would literally take me 1/2 hr to get through 20 pages or so….I had to work twice as much as the average kid to achieve the same level of competence as everyone else. But on the surface, no one could tell the difference since I liked what I did and even if it was hard, I stuck doing it.
It was a real shocker when I got into pedigree ivy college, and when I got there even more shocking that it would have been far easier if
1) My parents had money
or
2) I was one of those protected minoritiesSo in short, so yeah I totally get where you’re coming from….Been there done that, and yeah, ain’t gonna let this happen to my kid without a bloody fight…
A lot of asians have(d )the thought process that the status quo is that well, as long as my kid does better than your kid (that is also asian), it’s not my problem…. It appears these folks are finally getting what a big problem it really is…And that’s a good thing..
I don’t think anyone is even asking for anything close to preferential treatment. I think what people are asking for is a level playing field…
Anyway, I’m done writing a dozen or so letters, and soliciting for a dozen or so organizations to pass the word around tonight…
And a few of the folks here that signed the petition as a result of this original thread I started, I’m very greatful that you took the time to do it. Thank you… Good night.[/quote]
Flashing back to college application process, I’m thinking, how come everything is so racial, didn’t the fact that we overcame downright poverty make any difference to these people? And don’t even get me started on the hypocrisy of La Raza once I’m in college.
Have you contacted some of the fobbie media outlet out there? If not I’m going start looking them up and calling, at least the Chinese speaking ones first, afterall, they managed to have a state senator from the 626 pull this on us and didn’t do a thing Bout it, I am still in shock!!!
March 4, 2014 at 6:16 AM #771495Participant[quote=flu]….this will be a constitutional issue eventually…
It’s unavoidable..http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/24/politics/scotus-texas-affirmative-action/
[/quote]Agree, I followed that case with eager anticipation last year, was not too pleased when they essentially just avoided the issue.
I think it all goes to the fear of the “yellow plague” dominating the upper crust of society. They are perfectly fine letting the Jews dominate because at the end, they are still white.
March 4, 2014 at 6:17 AM #771494CoronitaParticipant[quote=ocrenter][quote=flu][quote=ocrenter]
+1
signed the petitions and writing e-mail to my assemblymember.
already a victim of affirmative action back in the early 90’s, not about to see it happen with my kid too.[/quote]
You know….When I was going through school. I wasn’t like all the other kids in my class, asian or caucasian…A lot of them were really smart and didn’t need to “study” that much… In a lot of ways, I probably (by today’s standards) had a learning disability.
In elementary, those “joke” standardized Iowa tests, most kids I knew consistently scored 90% and above, I was down there around in the 56% percentile. And I had a reading comprehension problem all the way throughout high school… I couldn’t read fast(er), and it would literally take me 1/2 hr to get through 20 pages or so….I had to work twice as much as the average kid to achieve the same level of competence as everyone else. But on the surface, no one could tell the difference since I liked what I did and even if it was hard, I stuck doing it.
It was a real shocker when I got into pedigree ivy college, and when I got there even more shocking that it would have been far easier if
1) My parents had money
or
2) I was one of those protected minoritiesSo in short, so yeah I totally get where you’re coming from….Been there done that, and yeah, ain’t gonna let this happen to my kid without a bloody fight…
A lot of asians have(d )the thought process that the status quo is that well, as long as my kid does better than your kid (that is also asian), it’s not my problem…. It appears these folks are finally getting what a big problem it really is…And that’s a good thing..
I don’t think anyone is even asking for anything close to preferential treatment. I think what people are asking for is a level playing field…
Anyway, I’m done writing a dozen or so letters, and soliciting for a dozen or so organizations to pass the word around tonight…
And a few of the folks here that signed the petition as a result of this original thread I started, I’m very greatful that you took the time to do it. Thank you… Good night.[/quote]
Flashing back to college application process, I’m thinking, how come everything is so racial, didn’t the fact that we overcame downright poverty make any difference to these people? And don’t even get me started on the hypocrisy of La Raza once I’m in college.
Have you contacted some of the fobbie media outlet out there? If not I’m going start looking them up and calling, at least the Chinese speaking ones first, afterall, they managed to have a state senator from the 626 pull this on us and didn’t do a thing Bout it, I am still in shock!!![/quote]
Actually, there is already heavy campaigning going on the chinese news media, and even at the bigger enrichment/ saturday schools in San Diego County….
The problem is that most other news media (mainstream) aren’t covering it….I think that’s where the shock and awe factor would be helpful…
March 4, 2014 at 6:22 AM #771497CoronitaParticipant[quote=ocrenter][quote=flu]….this will be a constitutional issue eventually…
It’s unavoidable..http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/24/politics/scotus-texas-affirmative-action/
[/quote]Agree, I followed that case with eager anticipation last year, was not too pleased when they essentially just avoided the issue.
I think it all goes to the fear of the “yellow plague” dominating the upper crust of society. They are perfectly fine letting the Jews dominate because at the end, they are still white.[/quote]
I’m not sure it’s that really. I think it’s more of the path of least resistance. I think some of our politicians were gambling on the fact that asians would just take it and move on…What’s more surprising to me is which politicians it’s coming out of…. I mean some of these fine politicians sure seem to be doing a pretty fine job of setting back civil rights 50+years or so…..
The most hypocritical thing about this is at the same time UC regents are heavily recruiting foreign students from asia..Simply because the can pay the full tuition cost….The irony….
March 4, 2014 at 6:25 AM #771498Participant[quote=flu]Bump… How the fvck did this thread go from this topic….
…to this….a rant about CEO’s pay????Talk about thread hijack….
[quote=CA renter]But there’s at least one group that has done very well for themselves over the past few decades!
We’ve made progress on a lot of things since the 1950s and so have CEOs — in their quest for more money that is.
The ratio of CEO-to-worker pay has increased 1,000 percent since 1950, according to data from Bloomberg. Today Fortune 500 CEOs make 204 times regular workers on average, Bloomberg found. The ratio is up from 120-to-1 in 2000, 42-to-1 in 1980 and 20-to-1 in 1950.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/30/ceo-to-worker-pay-ratio_n_3184623.html%5B/quote%5D
But I’ll stretch…CEO’s wouldn’t dare to pass a blatantly discriminatory law as some of our most racists politicians would…. Funny how people continue to attack CEOs, and wealthy and redirect the real root of the problem, while the biggest threat to equality is staring right in front of them…
Of course, I guess for some (not all) if you’re not affected by these ridiculous prejudice laws, I guess it doesn’t matter to you.. So I guess for some, we haven’t learned anything for the past 50 years about civil rights and basic principles of right versus wrong….They might move an entire company to a lower cost area, and in the process screw everyone at the company under, but it’s not personal it’s business. It’s not targeted because you are white, black, hispanic, and/or asian…
But whatever…. IF you think these STEM jobs or what have you aren’t important enough for your kids, then fine… Please give tell your kids not to bother to apply so people who really do want them have a better chance…Because I’m sure there are plenty of people who would want them…[/quote]
New thread created for further discussion regarding CEO pay:
http://piggington.com/ceo_pay_declining_compensation_for_mds_and_lawyers
-
AuthorPosts
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.