$4 gas, free market, tax burden question

[Dukehorn]

I’m a tech lawyer so my econ background is pretty mediocre.

President Bush today said he hadn’t heard about the predictions for $4 gas, but that the proposed 18 billion dollar tax increase on the oil industries from Congress was going to bump the price up.

From a free market perspective, does the tax increase really matter? The gas companies turned in another quarter of record profits so I’m trying to figure out the supply and demand question for something that literally everyone needs (due to the sad state of public transportation in this country).

Since this is a market area where the consumers have limited options and therefore will pay whatever price is being charge (to a certain extent), the only possibility is if one of the companies decides to undercut the others price-wise, but what’s the incentive to do so? This isn’t a luxury item so in essence the market is an oligopoly (isn’t it)?

De-regulation is great in industries where you have to compete for consumers but that really isn’t the oil industry.

[Nor-LA-SD-guy]

I believe we are very close to being done with Oil as far as transportation is concerned, The more they raise the price of Gas, the faster we will be free of the need for it.

There are several technologies that are very close ie.. cheap lithium ion batteries.
nanoparticles that could make hydrogen cheaper than gasoline..

and sereral others

The Mid east will just be a other spot on the map in 10 years IMO,

Maybe a religious vacation spot who knows.

[bsrsharma]

technologies that are very close ie.. cheap lithium ion batteries. nanoparticles that could make hydrogen cheaper than gasoline..

Sadly, as a technologist, I should disagree with the "very close" description. We still have to depend on public transport, rail and conservation for near future. Battery and Hydrogen are nowhere near maturity to replace oil. The capital costs to build & replace the batteries and charging systems are still not well understood. e.g. we all know about CO2 emission/green house effect/global warming etc, but can anyone tell the effect of scrapping, say, tens of millions of high capacity lithium batteries per year? What are its impacts on air & water pollution? health impacts (cancer/birth defects/mental retardation? – Lithium is used in psychiatric medicine) We may get stuck with problems like nuclear waste or asbestos.

[bsrsharma]

technologies that are very close ie.. cheap lithium ion batteries. nanoparticles that could make hydrogen cheaper than gasoline..

Sadly, as a technologist, I should disagree with the "very close" description. We still have to depend on public transport, rail and conservation for near future. Battery and Hydrogen are nowhere near maturity to replace oil. The capital costs to build & replace the batteries and charging systems are still not well understood. e.g. we all know about CO2 emission/green house effect/global warming etc, but can anyone tell the effect of scrapping, say, tens of millions of high capacity lithium batteries per year? What are its impacts on air & water pollution? health impacts (cancer/birth defects/mental retardation? – Lithium is used in psychiatric medicine) We may get stuck with problems like nuclear waste or asbestos.

[bsrsharma]

technologies that are very close ie.. cheap lithium ion batteries. nanoparticles that could make hydrogen cheaper than gasoline..

Sadly, as a technologist, I should disagree with the "very close" description. We still have to depend on public transport, rail and conservation for near future. Battery and Hydrogen are nowhere near maturity to replace oil. The capital costs to build & replace the batteries and charging systems are still not well understood. e.g. we all know about CO2 emission/green house effect/global warming etc, but can anyone tell the effect of scrapping, say, tens of millions of high capacity lithium batteries per year? What are its impacts on air & water pollution? health impacts (cancer/birth defects/mental retardation? – Lithium is used in psychiatric medicine) We may get stuck with problems like nuclear waste or asbestos.

[bsrsharma]

technologies that are very close ie.. cheap lithium ion batteries. nanoparticles that could make hydrogen cheaper than gasoline..

Sadly, as a technologist, I should disagree with the "very close" description. We still have to depend on public transport, rail and conservation for near future. Battery and Hydrogen are nowhere near maturity to replace oil. The capital costs to build & replace the batteries and charging systems are still not well understood. e.g. we all know about CO2 emission/green house effect/global warming etc, but can anyone tell the effect of scrapping, say, tens of millions of high capacity lithium batteries per year? What are its impacts on air & water pollution? health impacts (cancer/birth defects/mental retardation? – Lithium is used in psychiatric medicine) We may get stuck with problems like nuclear waste or asbestos.

[bsrsharma]

technologies that are very close ie.. cheap lithium ion batteries. nanoparticles that could make hydrogen cheaper than gasoline..

Sadly, as a technologist, I should disagree with the "very close" description. We still have to depend on public transport, rail and conservation for near future. Battery and Hydrogen are nowhere near maturity to replace oil. The capital costs to build & replace the batteries and charging systems are still not well understood. e.g. we all know about CO2 emission/green house effect/global warming etc, but can anyone tell the effect of scrapping, say, tens of millions of high capacity lithium batteries per year? What are its impacts on air & water pollution? health impacts (cancer/birth defects/mental retardation? – Lithium is used in psychiatric medicine) We may get stuck with problems like nuclear waste or asbestos.

[Arraya]

“There are several technologies that are very close”

Close is not the issue. The issue is scaleble.

Hydrogen is an energy carrier, not an energy source. It is that you need to generate the energy to create the hydrogen somehow (which is problematic if energy becomes scarcer) and that this process is wasteful as there are losses at each stage of the energy conversion process.

The car of the future is a railroad car and a bike at the other end. Except for maybe 1% of the population.

[Arraya]

“There are several technologies that are very close”

Close is not the issue. The issue is scaleble.

Hydrogen is an energy carrier, not an energy source. It is that you need to generate the energy to create the hydrogen somehow (which is problematic if energy becomes scarcer) and that this process is wasteful as there are losses at each stage of the energy conversion process.

The car of the future is a railroad car and a bike at the other end. Except for maybe 1% of the population.

[Arraya]

“There are several technologies that are very close”

Close is not the issue. The issue is scaleble.

Hydrogen is an energy carrier, not an energy source. It is that you need to generate the energy to create the hydrogen somehow (which is problematic if energy becomes scarcer) and that this process is wasteful as there are losses at each stage of the energy conversion process.

The car of the future is a railroad car and a bike at the other end. Except for maybe 1% of the population.

[Arraya]

“There are several technologies that are very close”

Close is not the issue. The issue is scaleble.

Hydrogen is an energy carrier, not an energy source. It is that you need to generate the energy to create the hydrogen somehow (which is problematic if energy becomes scarcer) and that this process is wasteful as there are losses at each stage of the energy conversion process.

The car of the future is a railroad car and a bike at the other end. Except for maybe 1% of the population.

[Arraya]

“There are several technologies that are very close”

Close is not the issue. The issue is scaleble.

Hydrogen is an energy carrier, not an energy source. It is that you need to generate the energy to create the hydrogen somehow (which is problematic if energy becomes scarcer) and that this process is wasteful as there are losses at each stage of the energy conversion process.

The car of the future is a railroad car and a bike at the other end. Except for maybe 1% of the population.

[sdduuuude]

Nor-LA-SD-guy

Do you think it would be easy to produce batteries without oil? You gonna lubricate the machines with whale blubber or something?

[sdduuuude]

Nor-LA-SD-guy

Do you think it would be easy to produce batteries without oil? You gonna lubricate the machines with whale blubber or something?

[sdduuuude]

Nor-LA-SD-guy

Do you think it would be easy to produce batteries without oil? You gonna lubricate the machines with whale blubber or something?

[sdduuuude]

Nor-LA-SD-guy

Do you think it would be easy to produce batteries without oil? You gonna lubricate the machines with whale blubber or something?

[sdduuuude]

Nor-LA-SD-guy

Do you think it would be easy to produce batteries without oil? You gonna lubricate the machines with whale blubber or something?

[Nor-LA-SD-guy]

I believe we are very close to being done with Oil as far as transportation is concerned, The more they raise the price of Gas, the faster we will be free of the need for it.

There are several technologies that are very close ie.. cheap lithium ion batteries.
nanoparticles that could make hydrogen cheaper than gasoline..

and sereral others

The Mid east will just be a other spot on the map in 10 years IMO,

Maybe a religious vacation spot who knows.

[Nor-LA-SD-guy]

I believe we are very close to being done with Oil as far as transportation is concerned, The more they raise the price of Gas, the faster we will be free of the need for it.

There are several technologies that are very close ie.. cheap lithium ion batteries.
nanoparticles that could make hydrogen cheaper than gasoline..

and sereral others

The Mid east will just be a other spot on the map in 10 years IMO,

Maybe a religious vacation spot who knows.

[Nor-LA-SD-guy]

I believe we are very close to being done with Oil as far as transportation is concerned, The more they raise the price of Gas, the faster we will be free of the need for it.

There are several technologies that are very close ie.. cheap lithium ion batteries.
nanoparticles that could make hydrogen cheaper than gasoline..

and sereral others

The Mid east will just be a other spot on the map in 10 years IMO,

Maybe a religious vacation spot who knows.

[Nor-LA-SD-guy]

I believe we are very close to being done with Oil as far as transportation is concerned, The more they raise the price of Gas, the faster we will be free of the need for it.

There are several technologies that are very close ie.. cheap lithium ion batteries.
nanoparticles that could make hydrogen cheaper than gasoline..

and sereral others

The Mid east will just be a other spot on the map in 10 years IMO,

Maybe a religious vacation spot who knows.

[kewp]

When I moved 3 years ago I picked a place that was within walking distance of free transportation to my place of business.

Expect this trend to increase with gas prices (and jingle mail).

There is also the chance of a ‘black swan’ type tech event that is game changing. Like a sub 10k biodiesel roadster that gets 100 mpg. Or hyper-efficient batteries, solar cells, teleporters, whatever.

The real problem, however, is its not just a transportation issue. Oil is used in shipping, industry, farming, manufacture, etc. So even jerks like me that don’t drive every day end up paying for it one way or another.

[svelte]

When I moved 3 years ago I picked a place that was within walking distance of free transportation to my place of business.

Expect this trend to increase with gas prices (and jingle mail).

The real problem, however, is its not just a transportation issue. Oil is used in shipping, industry, farming, manufacture, etc. So even jerks like me that don’t drive every day end up paying for it one way or another.

I agree with kewp – homes close to employment centers will continue to become more and more valuable as energy costs rise. Whether it is oil or some other energy source, energy can’t help but become more and more expensive as time passes.

That is one of the primary reasons we decided not to buy or even look much in Fallbrook, Ramona or Temecula. Too far from our employment – and most potential future buyer’s employment – which would increase commute time/costs and decrease our future resale value.

Which energy source we use is something for the various technologies to duke out. Where you choose to live in order to be best prepared for future increases in energy costs is more a choice you can make.

One thing that may offset this somewhat but not completely: the increased use of telecommuting.

[Arraya]

One thing that may offset this somewhat but not completely: the increased use of telecommuting.

This is a good point. We need a re-organization of most things that require transport. My negativity is mostly from lack of recognition of a quickly approaching global crisis. The longer we ignore it the worse it will be.

Mankind has lived with war, famine and disease as constant facts of life for thousands of years. Any study of history before the Age of Fossil Fuels will show this quite clearly. That many now live in situations which are isolated from these facts is a consequence of the rapid use of the stored energy capital in FFs and those of us who live this way have all come to expect this to be normal.

The trouble is, all those high energy lifestyles are not normal. Once the party is over, well, it will be back to business as usual, unless, by way of some yet unknown discovery, another source of energy can be found to keep the game going. While I doubt that the high energy lifestyles can continue, as an engineer I do know of ways to produce useful energy at lower concentrations. The other problem is that we should have started a worldwide effort to make use of these sources after the first OPEC Embargo and the Iranian Crisis. Instead, we let the greedy idiots have their way and people like Ronnie RayGun kept feeding the illusion of Eternal Oil and the party kept rocking. Maybe this time, the party really is over but we won’t know until after the crowds have gone home and we wakeup with a permanent hangover…

It is better to dig the well when you are not thirsty

[Arraya]

One thing that may offset this somewhat but not completely: the increased use of telecommuting.

This is a good point. We need a re-organization of most things that require transport. My negativity is mostly from lack of recognition of a quickly approaching global crisis. The longer we ignore it the worse it will be.

Mankind has lived with war, famine and disease as constant facts of life for thousands of years. Any study of history before the Age of Fossil Fuels will show this quite clearly. That many now live in situations which are isolated from these facts is a consequence of the rapid use of the stored energy capital in FFs and those of us who live this way have all come to expect this to be normal.

The trouble is, all those high energy lifestyles are not normal. Once the party is over, well, it will be back to business as usual, unless, by way of some yet unknown discovery, another source of energy can be found to keep the game going. While I doubt that the high energy lifestyles can continue, as an engineer I do know of ways to produce useful energy at lower concentrations. The other problem is that we should have started a worldwide effort to make use of these sources after the first OPEC Embargo and the Iranian Crisis. Instead, we let the greedy idiots have their way and people like Ronnie RayGun kept feeding the illusion of Eternal Oil and the party kept rocking. Maybe this time, the party really is over but we won’t know until after the crowds have gone home and we wakeup with a permanent hangover…

It is better to dig the well when you are not thirsty

[Arraya]

One thing that may offset this somewhat but not completely: the increased use of telecommuting.

This is a good point. We need a re-organization of most things that require transport. My negativity is mostly from lack of recognition of a quickly approaching global crisis. The longer we ignore it the worse it will be.

Mankind has lived with war, famine and disease as constant facts of life for thousands of years. Any study of history before the Age of Fossil Fuels will show this quite clearly. That many now live in situations which are isolated from these facts is a consequence of the rapid use of the stored energy capital in FFs and those of us who live this way have all come to expect this to be normal.

The trouble is, all those high energy lifestyles are not normal. Once the party is over, well, it will be back to business as usual, unless, by way of some yet unknown discovery, another source of energy can be found to keep the game going. While I doubt that the high energy lifestyles can continue, as an engineer I do know of ways to produce useful energy at lower concentrations. The other problem is that we should have started a worldwide effort to make use of these sources after the first OPEC Embargo and the Iranian Crisis. Instead, we let the greedy idiots have their way and people like Ronnie RayGun kept feeding the illusion of Eternal Oil and the party kept rocking. Maybe this time, the party really is over but we won’t know until after the crowds have gone home and we wakeup with a permanent hangover…

It is better to dig the well when you are not thirsty

[Arraya]

One thing that may offset this somewhat but not completely: the increased use of telecommuting.

This is a good point. We need a re-organization of most things that require transport. My negativity is mostly from lack of recognition of a quickly approaching global crisis. The longer we ignore it the worse it will be.

Mankind has lived with war, famine and disease as constant facts of life for thousands of years. Any study of history before the Age of Fossil Fuels will show this quite clearly. That many now live in situations which are isolated from these facts is a consequence of the rapid use of the stored energy capital in FFs and those of us who live this way have all come to expect this to be normal.

The trouble is, all those high energy lifestyles are not normal. Once the party is over, well, it will be back to business as usual, unless, by way of some yet unknown discovery, another source of energy can be found to keep the game going. While I doubt that the high energy lifestyles can continue, as an engineer I do know of ways to produce useful energy at lower concentrations. The other problem is that we should have started a worldwide effort to make use of these sources after the first OPEC Embargo and the Iranian Crisis. Instead, we let the greedy idiots have their way and people like Ronnie RayGun kept feeding the illusion of Eternal Oil and the party kept rocking. Maybe this time, the party really is over but we won’t know until after the crowds have gone home and we wakeup with a permanent hangover…

It is better to dig the well when you are not thirsty

[Arraya]

One thing that may offset this somewhat but not completely: the increased use of telecommuting.

This is a good point. We need a re-organization of most things that require transport. My negativity is mostly from lack of recognition of a quickly approaching global crisis. The longer we ignore it the worse it will be.

Mankind has lived with war, famine and disease as constant facts of life for thousands of years. Any study of history before the Age of Fossil Fuels will show this quite clearly. That many now live in situations which are isolated from these facts is a consequence of the rapid use of the stored energy capital in FFs and those of us who live this way have all come to expect this to be normal.

The trouble is, all those high energy lifestyles are not normal. Once the party is over, well, it will be back to business as usual, unless, by way of some yet unknown discovery, another source of energy can be found to keep the game going. While I doubt that the high energy lifestyles can continue, as an engineer I do know of ways to produce useful energy at lower concentrations. The other problem is that we should have started a worldwide effort to make use of these sources after the first OPEC Embargo and the Iranian Crisis. Instead, we let the greedy idiots have their way and people like Ronnie RayGun kept feeding the illusion of Eternal Oil and the party kept rocking. Maybe this time, the party really is over but we won’t know until after the crowds have gone home and we wakeup with a permanent hangover…

It is better to dig the well when you are not thirsty

[svelte]

When I moved 3 years ago I picked a place that was within walking distance of free transportation to my place of business.

Expect this trend to increase with gas prices (and jingle mail).

The real problem, however, is its not just a transportation issue. Oil is used in shipping, industry, farming, manufacture, etc. So even jerks like me that don’t drive every day end up paying for it one way or another.

I agree with kewp – homes close to employment centers will continue to become more and more valuable as energy costs rise. Whether it is oil or some other energy source, energy can’t help but become more and more expensive as time passes.

That is one of the primary reasons we decided not to buy or even look much in Fallbrook, Ramona or Temecula. Too far from our employment – and most potential future buyer’s employment – which would increase commute time/costs and decrease our future resale value.

Which energy source we use is something for the various technologies to duke out. Where you choose to live in order to be best prepared for future increases in energy costs is more a choice you can make.

One thing that may offset this somewhat but not completely: the increased use of telecommuting.

[svelte]

When I moved 3 years ago I picked a place that was within walking distance of free transportation to my place of business.

Expect this trend to increase with gas prices (and jingle mail).

The real problem, however, is its not just a transportation issue. Oil is used in shipping, industry, farming, manufacture, etc. So even jerks like me that don’t drive every day end up paying for it one way or another.

I agree with kewp – homes close to employment centers will continue to become more and more valuable as energy costs rise. Whether it is oil or some other energy source, energy can’t help but become more and more expensive as time passes.

That is one of the primary reasons we decided not to buy or even look much in Fallbrook, Ramona or Temecula. Too far from our employment – and most potential future buyer’s employment – which would increase commute time/costs and decrease our future resale value.

Which energy source we use is something for the various technologies to duke out. Where you choose to live in order to be best prepared for future increases in energy costs is more a choice you can make.

One thing that may offset this somewhat but not completely: the increased use of telecommuting.

[svelte]

When I moved 3 years ago I picked a place that was within walking distance of free transportation to my place of business.

Expect this trend to increase with gas prices (and jingle mail).

The real problem, however, is its not just a transportation issue. Oil is used in shipping, industry, farming, manufacture, etc. So even jerks like me that don’t drive every day end up paying for it one way or another.

I agree with kewp – homes close to employment centers will continue to become more and more valuable as energy costs rise. Whether it is oil or some other energy source, energy can’t help but become more and more expensive as time passes.

That is one of the primary reasons we decided not to buy or even look much in Fallbrook, Ramona or Temecula. Too far from our employment – and most potential future buyer’s employment – which would increase commute time/costs and decrease our future resale value.

Which energy source we use is something for the various technologies to duke out. Where you choose to live in order to be best prepared for future increases in energy costs is more a choice you can make.

One thing that may offset this somewhat but not completely: the increased use of telecommuting.

[svelte]

When I moved 3 years ago I picked a place that was within walking distance of free transportation to my place of business.

Expect this trend to increase with gas prices (and jingle mail).

The real problem, however, is its not just a transportation issue. Oil is used in shipping, industry, farming, manufacture, etc. So even jerks like me that don’t drive every day end up paying for it one way or another.

I agree with kewp – homes close to employment centers will continue to become more and more valuable as energy costs rise. Whether it is oil or some other energy source, energy can’t help but become more and more expensive as time passes.

That is one of the primary reasons we decided not to buy or even look much in Fallbrook, Ramona or Temecula. Too far from our employment – and most potential future buyer’s employment – which would increase commute time/costs and decrease our future resale value.

Which energy source we use is something for the various technologies to duke out. Where you choose to live in order to be best prepared for future increases in energy costs is more a choice you can make.

One thing that may offset this somewhat but not completely: the increased use of telecommuting.

[kewp]

When I moved 3 years ago I picked a place that was within walking distance of free transportation to my place of business.

Expect this trend to increase with gas prices (and jingle mail).

There is also the chance of a ‘black swan’ type tech event that is game changing. Like a sub 10k biodiesel roadster that gets 100 mpg. Or hyper-efficient batteries, solar cells, teleporters, whatever.

The real problem, however, is its not just a transportation issue. Oil is used in shipping, industry, farming, manufacture, etc. So even jerks like me that don’t drive every day end up paying for it one way or another.

[kewp]

When I moved 3 years ago I picked a place that was within walking distance of free transportation to my place of business.

Expect this trend to increase with gas prices (and jingle mail).

There is also the chance of a ‘black swan’ type tech event that is game changing. Like a sub 10k biodiesel roadster that gets 100 mpg. Or hyper-efficient batteries, solar cells, teleporters, whatever.

The real problem, however, is its not just a transportation issue. Oil is used in shipping, industry, farming, manufacture, etc. So even jerks like me that don’t drive every day end up paying for it one way or another.

[kewp]

When I moved 3 years ago I picked a place that was within walking distance of free transportation to my place of business.

Expect this trend to increase with gas prices (and jingle mail).

There is also the chance of a ‘black swan’ type tech event that is game changing. Like a sub 10k biodiesel roadster that gets 100 mpg. Or hyper-efficient batteries, solar cells, teleporters, whatever.

The real problem, however, is its not just a transportation issue. Oil is used in shipping, industry, farming, manufacture, etc. So even jerks like me that don’t drive every day end up paying for it one way or another.

[kewp]

When I moved 3 years ago I picked a place that was within walking distance of free transportation to my place of business.

Expect this trend to increase with gas prices (and jingle mail).

There is also the chance of a ‘black swan’ type tech event that is game changing. Like a sub 10k biodiesel roadster that gets 100 mpg. Or hyper-efficient batteries, solar cells, teleporters, whatever.

The real problem, however, is its not just a transportation issue. Oil is used in shipping, industry, farming, manufacture, etc. So even jerks like me that don’t drive every day end up paying for it one way or another.

[DWCAP]

There is a speculative bubble in oil right now and it will continue for a while. What little change taxes may have had on the price of oil are easily overshadowed by this bubble. Supplies are higher, demand is down and prices are spiking? I dont mean at the pump where switches from winter to summer blends may have a few % influence, I mean the wall street market where oil is priced.
The companies will scream bloody murder over it and Bush will make retarded predictions about it that are scary but he is so far behind the curve I really question how he got an MBA. But in the end the dust will clear, and nothing will have changed cept the Federal gov will just spend another 14billion and the oil companies will keep going on making record profits until this bubble goes pop.

It kinda seems that the bubbles are going more and more to the markets that have very steep demand curves. Huge swings in prices affect demand for gas very little. Our population growth easly outpaces this change. It started in Tech stocks which have very gradual demand curves, they are not necessities. Then to housing, which is much steeper but has alternatives (rent, move, downsize), now to oil which has very few viable alternatives right now. In the long run itll be good because itll make alternatives viable, but it hurts now. The next ones are in Food and healthcare, which have no alternatives. Corn and wheat are the base of modern societies and prayer sessions are not viable alternatives to a regular checkup.

[Arraya]

There is a speculative bubble in oil right now and it will continue for a while. What little change taxes may have had on the price of oil are easily overshadowed by this bubble

Bubble would indicate a disconnect from fundamentals which could not be further from the truth.

If anything oil is way underpriced.

Also RE: Lithium, it is also a finite resource.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/01/30/beyond-peak-oil-are-we-facing-peak-lithium/

[afx114]

If GWB really wants “free market” rules to govern the oil industry, he should take away all those government subsidies they have.

[afx114]

If GWB really wants “free market” rules to govern the oil industry, he should take away all those government subsidies they have.

[afx114]

If GWB really wants “free market” rules to govern the oil industry, he should take away all those government subsidies they have.

[afx114]

If GWB really wants “free market” rules to govern the oil industry, he should take away all those government subsidies they have.

[afx114]

If GWB really wants “free market” rules to govern the oil industry, he should take away all those government subsidies they have.

[Arraya]

There is a speculative bubble in oil right now and it will continue for a while. What little change taxes may have had on the price of oil are easily overshadowed by this bubble

Bubble would indicate a disconnect from fundamentals which could not be further from the truth.

If anything oil is way underpriced.

Also RE: Lithium, it is also a finite resource.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/01/30/beyond-peak-oil-are-we-facing-peak-lithium/

[Arraya]

There is a speculative bubble in oil right now and it will continue for a while. What little change taxes may have had on the price of oil are easily overshadowed by this bubble

Bubble would indicate a disconnect from fundamentals which could not be further from the truth.

If anything oil is way underpriced.

Also RE: Lithium, it is also a finite resource.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/01/30/beyond-peak-oil-are-we-facing-peak-lithium/

[Arraya]

There is a speculative bubble in oil right now and it will continue for a while. What little change taxes may have had on the price of oil are easily overshadowed by this bubble

Bubble would indicate a disconnect from fundamentals which could not be further from the truth.

If anything oil is way underpriced.

Also RE: Lithium, it is also a finite resource.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/01/30/beyond-peak-oil-are-we-facing-peak-lithium/

[Arraya]

There is a speculative bubble in oil right now and it will continue for a while. What little change taxes may have had on the price of oil are easily overshadowed by this bubble

Bubble would indicate a disconnect from fundamentals which could not be further from the truth.

If anything oil is way underpriced.

Also RE: Lithium, it is also a finite resource.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/01/30/beyond-peak-oil-are-we-facing-peak-lithium/

[DWCAP]

There is a speculative bubble in oil right now and it will continue for a while. What little change taxes may have had on the price of oil are easily overshadowed by this bubble. Supplies are higher, demand is down and prices are spiking? I dont mean at the pump where switches from winter to summer blends may have a few % influence, I mean the wall street market where oil is priced.
The companies will scream bloody murder over it and Bush will make retarded predictions about it that are scary but he is so far behind the curve I really question how he got an MBA. But in the end the dust will clear, and nothing will have changed cept the Federal gov will just spend another 14billion and the oil companies will keep going on making record profits until this bubble goes pop.

It kinda seems that the bubbles are going more and more to the markets that have very steep demand curves. Huge swings in prices affect demand for gas very little. Our population growth easly outpaces this change. It started in Tech stocks which have very gradual demand curves, they are not necessities. Then to housing, which is much steeper but has alternatives (rent, move, downsize), now to oil which has very few viable alternatives right now. In the long run itll be good because itll make alternatives viable, but it hurts now. The next ones are in Food and healthcare, which have no alternatives. Corn and wheat are the base of modern societies and prayer sessions are not viable alternatives to a regular checkup.

[DWCAP]

There is a speculative bubble in oil right now and it will continue for a while. What little change taxes may have had on the price of oil are easily overshadowed by this bubble. Supplies are higher, demand is down and prices are spiking? I dont mean at the pump where switches from winter to summer blends may have a few % influence, I mean the wall street market where oil is priced.
The companies will scream bloody murder over it and Bush will make retarded predictions about it that are scary but he is so far behind the curve I really question how he got an MBA. But in the end the dust will clear, and nothing will have changed cept the Federal gov will just spend another 14billion and the oil companies will keep going on making record profits until this bubble goes pop.

It kinda seems that the bubbles are going more and more to the markets that have very steep demand curves. Huge swings in prices affect demand for gas very little. Our population growth easly outpaces this change. It started in Tech stocks which have very gradual demand curves, they are not necessities. Then to housing, which is much steeper but has alternatives (rent, move, downsize), now to oil which has very few viable alternatives right now. In the long run itll be good because itll make alternatives viable, but it hurts now. The next ones are in Food and healthcare, which have no alternatives. Corn and wheat are the base of modern societies and prayer sessions are not viable alternatives to a regular checkup.

[DWCAP]

There is a speculative bubble in oil right now and it will continue for a while. What little change taxes may have had on the price of oil are easily overshadowed by this bubble. Supplies are higher, demand is down and prices are spiking? I dont mean at the pump where switches from winter to summer blends may have a few % influence, I mean the wall street market where oil is priced.
The companies will scream bloody murder over it and Bush will make retarded predictions about it that are scary but he is so far behind the curve I really question how he got an MBA. But in the end the dust will clear, and nothing will have changed cept the Federal gov will just spend another 14billion and the oil companies will keep going on making record profits until this bubble goes pop.

It kinda seems that the bubbles are going more and more to the markets that have very steep demand curves. Huge swings in prices affect demand for gas very little. Our population growth easly outpaces this change. It started in Tech stocks which have very gradual demand curves, they are not necessities. Then to housing, which is much steeper but has alternatives (rent, move, downsize), now to oil which has very few viable alternatives right now. In the long run itll be good because itll make alternatives viable, but it hurts now. The next ones are in Food and healthcare, which have no alternatives. Corn and wheat are the base of modern societies and prayer sessions are not viable alternatives to a regular checkup.

[DWCAP]

There is a speculative bubble in oil right now and it will continue for a while. What little change taxes may have had on the price of oil are easily overshadowed by this bubble. Supplies are higher, demand is down and prices are spiking? I dont mean at the pump where switches from winter to summer blends may have a few % influence, I mean the wall street market where oil is priced.
The companies will scream bloody murder over it and Bush will make retarded predictions about it that are scary but he is so far behind the curve I really question how he got an MBA. But in the end the dust will clear, and nothing will have changed cept the Federal gov will just spend another 14billion and the oil companies will keep going on making record profits until this bubble goes pop.

It kinda seems that the bubbles are going more and more to the markets that have very steep demand curves. Huge swings in prices affect demand for gas very little. Our population growth easly outpaces this change. It started in Tech stocks which have very gradual demand curves, they are not necessities. Then to housing, which is much steeper but has alternatives (rent, move, downsize), now to oil which has very few viable alternatives right now. In the long run itll be good because itll make alternatives viable, but it hurts now. The next ones are in Food and healthcare, which have no alternatives. Corn and wheat are the base of modern societies and prayer sessions are not viable alternatives to a regular checkup.

[DWCAP]

If anything oil is way underpriced.

Arraya, you are kidding right? Future supply disruptions caused by demand that India and China will have in the future are being priced in today, even though they are not drawling on supply like they WILL be. If you wanted to benifit from future gains in demand, you should buy oil stocks or oil land, not oil that is gonna be used in 10 weeks.

From:http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/28/markets/oil_prices.ap/index.htm?postversion=2008022815

On Wednesday, oil prices fell $1.24 a barrel after the Energy Department reported crude inventories rose more than expected last week. But that reflected a rare reaction by oil investors to supply and demand fundamentals. Oil prices have been far more affected in recent months by dollar- and interest rate-driven investment decisions, analysts say.

“[Fundamentals] have no relationship to price right now,” Flynn said. If prices were responding to supply and demand, fundamentals, they would be falling, he said. Several recent forecasters have lowered oil demand growth predictions for this year due to the slowing economy, and domestic oil inventories have been growing.
Oil prices have received some support in recent days from word of a technical glitch that temporarily disrupted the flow of a small amount of crude out of Nigeria. Eni SpA denied earlier reports that its Brass River oil terminal had been attacked by rebels. Turkey’s recent invasion of Northern Iraq in search of Kurdish rebels has also been supportive, Flynn said, but these stories are not enough in and of themselves to explain why oil continues to trade above $100.

Many analysts believe it’s just a matter of time until the fundamentals reassert themselves on the market, pushing prices down

[Arraya]

Arraya, you are kidding right?

Let me break it down:

A barrel of oil contains 42 gallons. It can be made into about 20 gallons of gasoline (give or take, depending on the grade of the oil). Each gallon of gasoline contains about 36 kilowatt-hours of chemical energy (kilowatt-hours are the number of kilowatts, a measure of power, times the number of hours, yielding a measure of energy). An efficient internal combustion engine turns about one quarter of that energy into useful work, with the rest lost as heat. One horsepower is equivalent to about 3/4 of a kilowatt. However, one human working hard continuously can only put out about 1/10 to 1/5 of a kilowatt (compare the power output of a human to a one-horsepower horse). A recent article in Bicycling on the Tour de France showed that the average power output (during the several hours per day of the race) of a top-finishing bike racer, Floyd Landis, was 0.23 kilowatts, or about 1/3 horsepower, continuous. In a 75 minute time trial, the same cyclist was able to put out 0.38 kilowatts continuously — a full 1/2 horsepower!

The 20 gallons of gasoline made from one barrel of oil contains about 180 useful kilowatt-hours. If we divide that by say, 1/8 of a kilowatt — a generous continuous output for a fit person — we get 1440 hours of hard human work. Let’s assume that a person can put out this 1/8 of a kilowatt for 6 hours per day. That is, half of the output of a top Tour de France cyclist for a continuous 6 hours (not counting breaks) per day. This means that you would need 240 days to get 180 kilowatt-hours (or more, if you are a dimmer bulb), which is minimally equivalent to one year of 5-days-a-week very hard labor by a fit human. This boils down conveniently to: ONE BARREL of oil = ONE YEAR of hard human labor.

Couple this with the fact that for the first time in history we are about to have not enough go around. Yeah, I’d say it was underpriced, the market has just not figured it out yet.

[sdduuuude]

arraya – you have done an excellent job of spelling out the upper bound of the value of oil.

Sadly, this has little to do with the price.

[sdduuuude]

arraya – you have done an excellent job of spelling out the upper bound of the value of oil.

Sadly, this has little to do with the price.

[sdduuuude]

arraya – you have done an excellent job of spelling out the upper bound of the value of oil.

Sadly, this has little to do with the price.

[sdduuuude]

arraya – you have done an excellent job of spelling out the upper bound of the value of oil.

Sadly, this has little to do with the price.

[sdduuuude]

arraya – you have done an excellent job of spelling out the upper bound of the value of oil.

Sadly, this has little to do with the price.

[Arraya]

Arraya, you are kidding right?

Let me break it down:

A barrel of oil contains 42 gallons. It can be made into about 20 gallons of gasoline (give or take, depending on the grade of the oil). Each gallon of gasoline contains about 36 kilowatt-hours of chemical energy (kilowatt-hours are the number of kilowatts, a measure of power, times the number of hours, yielding a measure of energy). An efficient internal combustion engine turns about one quarter of that energy into useful work, with the rest lost as heat. One horsepower is equivalent to about 3/4 of a kilowatt. However, one human working hard continuously can only put out about 1/10 to 1/5 of a kilowatt (compare the power output of a human to a one-horsepower horse). A recent article in Bicycling on the Tour de France showed that the average power output (during the several hours per day of the race) of a top-finishing bike racer, Floyd Landis, was 0.23 kilowatts, or about 1/3 horsepower, continuous. In a 75 minute time trial, the same cyclist was able to put out 0.38 kilowatts continuously — a full 1/2 horsepower!

The 20 gallons of gasoline made from one barrel of oil contains about 180 useful kilowatt-hours. If we divide that by say, 1/8 of a kilowatt — a generous continuous output for a fit person — we get 1440 hours of hard human work. Let’s assume that a person can put out this 1/8 of a kilowatt for 6 hours per day. That is, half of the output of a top Tour de France cyclist for a continuous 6 hours (not counting breaks) per day. This means that you would need 240 days to get 180 kilowatt-hours (or more, if you are a dimmer bulb), which is minimally equivalent to one year of 5-days-a-week very hard labor by a fit human. This boils down conveniently to: ONE BARREL of oil = ONE YEAR of hard human labor.

Couple this with the fact that for the first time in history we are about to have not enough go around. Yeah, I’d say it was underpriced, the market has just not figured it out yet.

[Arraya]

Arraya, you are kidding right?

Let me break it down:

A barrel of oil contains 42 gallons. It can be made into about 20 gallons of gasoline (give or take, depending on the grade of the oil). Each gallon of gasoline contains about 36 kilowatt-hours of chemical energy (kilowatt-hours are the number of kilowatts, a measure of power, times the number of hours, yielding a measure of energy). An efficient internal combustion engine turns about one quarter of that energy into useful work, with the rest lost as heat. One horsepower is equivalent to about 3/4 of a kilowatt. However, one human working hard continuously can only put out about 1/10 to 1/5 of a kilowatt (compare the power output of a human to a one-horsepower horse). A recent article in Bicycling on the Tour de France showed that the average power output (during the several hours per day of the race) of a top-finishing bike racer, Floyd Landis, was 0.23 kilowatts, or about 1/3 horsepower, continuous. In a 75 minute time trial, the same cyclist was able to put out 0.38 kilowatts continuously — a full 1/2 horsepower!

The 20 gallons of gasoline made from one barrel of oil contains about 180 useful kilowatt-hours. If we divide that by say, 1/8 of a kilowatt — a generous continuous output for a fit person — we get 1440 hours of hard human work. Let’s assume that a person can put out this 1/8 of a kilowatt for 6 hours per day. That is, half of the output of a top Tour de France cyclist for a continuous 6 hours (not counting breaks) per day. This means that you would need 240 days to get 180 kilowatt-hours (or more, if you are a dimmer bulb), which is minimally equivalent to one year of 5-days-a-week very hard labor by a fit human. This boils down conveniently to: ONE BARREL of oil = ONE YEAR of hard human labor.

Couple this with the fact that for the first time in history we are about to have not enough go around. Yeah, I’d say it was underpriced, the market has just not figured it out yet.

[Arraya]

Arraya, you are kidding right?

Let me break it down:

A barrel of oil contains 42 gallons. It can be made into about 20 gallons of gasoline (give or take, depending on the grade of the oil). Each gallon of gasoline contains about 36 kilowatt-hours of chemical energy (kilowatt-hours are the number of kilowatts, a measure of power, times the number of hours, yielding a measure of energy). An efficient internal combustion engine turns about one quarter of that energy into useful work, with the rest lost as heat. One horsepower is equivalent to about 3/4 of a kilowatt. However, one human working hard continuously can only put out about 1/10 to 1/5 of a kilowatt (compare the power output of a human to a one-horsepower horse). A recent article in Bicycling on the Tour de France showed that the average power output (during the several hours per day of the race) of a top-finishing bike racer, Floyd Landis, was 0.23 kilowatts, or about 1/3 horsepower, continuous. In a 75 minute time trial, the same cyclist was able to put out 0.38 kilowatts continuously — a full 1/2 horsepower!

The 20 gallons of gasoline made from one barrel of oil contains about 180 useful kilowatt-hours. If we divide that by say, 1/8 of a kilowatt — a generous continuous output for a fit person — we get 1440 hours of hard human work. Let’s assume that a person can put out this 1/8 of a kilowatt for 6 hours per day. That is, half of the output of a top Tour de France cyclist for a continuous 6 hours (not counting breaks) per day. This means that you would need 240 days to get 180 kilowatt-hours (or more, if you are a dimmer bulb), which is minimally equivalent to one year of 5-days-a-week very hard labor by a fit human. This boils down conveniently to: ONE BARREL of oil = ONE YEAR of hard human labor.

Couple this with the fact that for the first time in history we are about to have not enough go around. Yeah, I’d say it was underpriced, the market has just not figured it out yet.

[Arraya]

Arraya, you are kidding right?

Let me break it down:

A barrel of oil contains 42 gallons. It can be made into about 20 gallons of gasoline (give or take, depending on the grade of the oil). Each gallon of gasoline contains about 36 kilowatt-hours of chemical energy (kilowatt-hours are the number of kilowatts, a measure of power, times the number of hours, yielding a measure of energy). An efficient internal combustion engine turns about one quarter of that energy into useful work, with the rest lost as heat. One horsepower is equivalent to about 3/4 of a kilowatt. However, one human working hard continuously can only put out about 1/10 to 1/5 of a kilowatt (compare the power output of a human to a one-horsepower horse). A recent article in Bicycling on the Tour de France showed that the average power output (during the several hours per day of the race) of a top-finishing bike racer, Floyd Landis, was 0.23 kilowatts, or about 1/3 horsepower, continuous. In a 75 minute time trial, the same cyclist was able to put out 0.38 kilowatts continuously — a full 1/2 horsepower!

The 20 gallons of gasoline made from one barrel of oil contains about 180 useful kilowatt-hours. If we divide that by say, 1/8 of a kilowatt — a generous continuous output for a fit person — we get 1440 hours of hard human work. Let’s assume that a person can put out this 1/8 of a kilowatt for 6 hours per day. That is, half of the output of a top Tour de France cyclist for a continuous 6 hours (not counting breaks) per day. This means that you would need 240 days to get 180 kilowatt-hours (or more, if you are a dimmer bulb), which is minimally equivalent to one year of 5-days-a-week very hard labor by a fit human. This boils down conveniently to: ONE BARREL of oil = ONE YEAR of hard human labor.

Couple this with the fact that for the first time in history we are about to have not enough go around. Yeah, I’d say it was underpriced, the market has just not figured it out yet.

[DWCAP]

If anything oil is way underpriced.

Arraya, you are kidding right? Future supply disruptions caused by demand that India and China will have in the future are being priced in today, even though they are not drawling on supply like they WILL be. If you wanted to benifit from future gains in demand, you should buy oil stocks or oil land, not oil that is gonna be used in 10 weeks.

From:http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/28/markets/oil_prices.ap/index.htm?postversion=2008022815

On Wednesday, oil prices fell $1.24 a barrel after the Energy Department reported crude inventories rose more than expected last week. But that reflected a rare reaction by oil investors to supply and demand fundamentals. Oil prices have been far more affected in recent months by dollar- and interest rate-driven investment decisions, analysts say.

“[Fundamentals] have no relationship to price right now,” Flynn said. If prices were responding to supply and demand, fundamentals, they would be falling, he said. Several recent forecasters have lowered oil demand growth predictions for this year due to the slowing economy, and domestic oil inventories have been growing.
Oil prices have received some support in recent days from word of a technical glitch that temporarily disrupted the flow of a small amount of crude out of Nigeria. Eni SpA denied earlier reports that its Brass River oil terminal had been attacked by rebels. Turkey’s recent invasion of Northern Iraq in search of Kurdish rebels has also been supportive, Flynn said, but these stories are not enough in and of themselves to explain why oil continues to trade above $100.

Many analysts believe it’s just a matter of time until the fundamentals reassert themselves on the market, pushing prices down

[DWCAP]

If anything oil is way underpriced.

Arraya, you are kidding right? Future supply disruptions caused by demand that India and China will have in the future are being priced in today, even though they are not drawling on supply like they WILL be. If you wanted to benifit from future gains in demand, you should buy oil stocks or oil land, not oil that is gonna be used in 10 weeks.

From:http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/28/markets/oil_prices.ap/index.htm?postversion=2008022815

On Wednesday, oil prices fell $1.24 a barrel after the Energy Department reported crude inventories rose more than expected last week. But that reflected a rare reaction by oil investors to supply and demand fundamentals. Oil prices have been far more affected in recent months by dollar- and interest rate-driven investment decisions, analysts say.

“[Fundamentals] have no relationship to price right now,” Flynn said. If prices were responding to supply and demand, fundamentals, they would be falling, he said. Several recent forecasters have lowered oil demand growth predictions for this year due to the slowing economy, and domestic oil inventories have been growing.
Oil prices have received some support in recent days from word of a technical glitch that temporarily disrupted the flow of a small amount of crude out of Nigeria. Eni SpA denied earlier reports that its Brass River oil terminal had been attacked by rebels. Turkey’s recent invasion of Northern Iraq in search of Kurdish rebels has also been supportive, Flynn said, but these stories are not enough in and of themselves to explain why oil continues to trade above $100.

Many analysts believe it’s just a matter of time until the fundamentals reassert themselves on the market, pushing prices down

[DWCAP]

If anything oil is way underpriced.

Arraya, you are kidding right? Future supply disruptions caused by demand that India and China will have in the future are being priced in today, even though they are not drawling on supply like they WILL be. If you wanted to benifit from future gains in demand, you should buy oil stocks or oil land, not oil that is gonna be used in 10 weeks.

From:http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/28/markets/oil_prices.ap/index.htm?postversion=2008022815

On Wednesday, oil prices fell $1.24 a barrel after the Energy Department reported crude inventories rose more than expected last week. But that reflected a rare reaction by oil investors to supply and demand fundamentals. Oil prices have been far more affected in recent months by dollar- and interest rate-driven investment decisions, analysts say.

“[Fundamentals] have no relationship to price right now,” Flynn said. If prices were responding to supply and demand, fundamentals, they would be falling, he said. Several recent forecasters have lowered oil demand growth predictions for this year due to the slowing economy, and domestic oil inventories have been growing.
Oil prices have received some support in recent days from word of a technical glitch that temporarily disrupted the flow of a small amount of crude out of Nigeria. Eni SpA denied earlier reports that its Brass River oil terminal had been attacked by rebels. Turkey’s recent invasion of Northern Iraq in search of Kurdish rebels has also been supportive, Flynn said, but these stories are not enough in and of themselves to explain why oil continues to trade above $100.

Many analysts believe it’s just a matter of time until the fundamentals reassert themselves on the market, pushing prices down

[DWCAP]

If anything oil is way underpriced.

Arraya, you are kidding right? Future supply disruptions caused by demand that India and China will have in the future are being priced in today, even though they are not drawling on supply like they WILL be. If you wanted to benifit from future gains in demand, you should buy oil stocks or oil land, not oil that is gonna be used in 10 weeks.

From:http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/28/markets/oil_prices.ap/index.htm?postversion=2008022815

On Wednesday, oil prices fell $1.24 a barrel after the Energy Department reported crude inventories rose more than expected last week. But that reflected a rare reaction by oil investors to supply and demand fundamentals. Oil prices have been far more affected in recent months by dollar- and interest rate-driven investment decisions, analysts say.

“[Fundamentals] have no relationship to price right now,” Flynn said. If prices were responding to supply and demand, fundamentals, they would be falling, he said. Several recent forecasters have lowered oil demand growth predictions for this year due to the slowing economy, and domestic oil inventories have been growing.
Oil prices have received some support in recent days from word of a technical glitch that temporarily disrupted the flow of a small amount of crude out of Nigeria. Eni SpA denied earlier reports that its Brass River oil terminal had been attacked by rebels. Turkey’s recent invasion of Northern Iraq in search of Kurdish rebels has also been supportive, Flynn said, but these stories are not enough in and of themselves to explain why oil continues to trade above $100.

Many analysts believe it’s just a matter of time until the fundamentals reassert themselves on the market, pushing prices down

[Disgruntled Patriot]

Before getting too carried away in demonizing the oil industry, consider the following:

– Crude oil alone makes up 54 percent of pump prices. Refining for 20 percent. Retailing another 11 percent. Taxes for 15 percent.

– The latest published data for the third quarter 2007 show the oil and natural gas industry earned 7.6 cents for every dollar of sales compared to 5.8 cents for all U.S. manufacturing and 9.2 cents for U.S. manufacturing, excluding the financially challenged auto industry.

– Earnings within the oil industry rank well below Beverage and Tobacco, Pharma, Electronics, Computer, Chemical, Aero, Apparel, and Machinery.

– The oil industry has spent $98 billion in emerging energy technologies since 2000—almost 73 percent of the total $138 billion spent by U.S. companies and the federal government combined.

– Company stock in the oil industry is owned by virtually all americans: 29.5% mutual funds, 27% pension funds, 23% individual investors, 14% IRA’s, 5% institutional, 1.5% corporate insiders.

– The average effective tax rate (current taxes) of the top 27 energy companies was 37.1 percent in 2006 ($81.5 billion). The effective tax rate for the market as a whole is 32.3 percent, or 3.3 percent less than the top energy companies.

– Petrochemicals are used not only for liquid and gas fuels, but also lubricants, plastics, and fertilizers.

The relationship of Big Oil to our society at large might be considered through the words of the great philosopher Ayn Rand “I don’t build in order to have clients. I have clients in order to build.” If you don’t like a product or service then it is the law of our wonderful land that you have a right to utilize your God-given talents to develop a better product or service. Complaining about the success of your industrious countrymen (be they corrupt or not) serves no useful purpose and fails to improve the circumstance of you or your community.

Disgruntled Patriot

[Disgruntled Patriot]

Before getting too carried away in demonizing the oil industry, consider the following:

– Crude oil alone makes up 54 percent of pump prices. Refining for 20 percent. Retailing another 11 percent. Taxes for 15 percent.

– The latest published data for the third quarter 2007 show the oil and natural gas industry earned 7.6 cents for every dollar of sales compared to 5.8 cents for all U.S. manufacturing and 9.2 cents for U.S. manufacturing, excluding the financially challenged auto industry.

– Earnings within the oil industry rank well below Beverage and Tobacco, Pharma, Electronics, Computer, Chemical, Aero, Apparel, and Machinery.

– The oil industry has spent $98 billion in emerging energy technologies since 2000—almost 73 percent of the total $138 billion spent by U.S. companies and the federal government combined.

– Company stock in the oil industry is owned by virtually all americans: 29.5% mutual funds, 27% pension funds, 23% individual investors, 14% IRA’s, 5% institutional, 1.5% corporate insiders.

– The average effective tax rate (current taxes) of the top 27 energy companies was 37.1 percent in 2006 ($81.5 billion). The effective tax rate for the market as a whole is 32.3 percent, or 3.3 percent less than the top energy companies.

– Petrochemicals are used not only for liquid and gas fuels, but also lubricants, plastics, and fertilizers.

The relationship of Big Oil to our society at large might be considered through the words of the great philosopher Ayn Rand “I don’t build in order to have clients. I have clients in order to build.” If you don’t like a product or service then it is the law of our wonderful land that you have a right to utilize your God-given talents to develop a better product or service. Complaining about the success of your industrious countrymen (be they corrupt or not) serves no useful purpose and fails to improve the circumstance of you or your community.

Disgruntled Patriot

[Disgruntled Patriot]

Before getting too carried away in demonizing the oil industry, consider the following:

– Crude oil alone makes up 54 percent of pump prices. Refining for 20 percent. Retailing another 11 percent. Taxes for 15 percent.

– The latest published data for the third quarter 2007 show the oil and natural gas industry earned 7.6 cents for every dollar of sales compared to 5.8 cents for all U.S. manufacturing and 9.2 cents for U.S. manufacturing, excluding the financially challenged auto industry.

– Earnings within the oil industry rank well below Beverage and Tobacco, Pharma, Electronics, Computer, Chemical, Aero, Apparel, and Machinery.

– The oil industry has spent $98 billion in emerging energy technologies since 2000—almost 73 percent of the total $138 billion spent by U.S. companies and the federal government combined.

– Company stock in the oil industry is owned by virtually all americans: 29.5% mutual funds, 27% pension funds, 23% individual investors, 14% IRA’s, 5% institutional, 1.5% corporate insiders.

– The average effective tax rate (current taxes) of the top 27 energy companies was 37.1 percent in 2006 ($81.5 billion). The effective tax rate for the market as a whole is 32.3 percent, or 3.3 percent less than the top energy companies.

– Petrochemicals are used not only for liquid and gas fuels, but also lubricants, plastics, and fertilizers.

The relationship of Big Oil to our society at large might be considered through the words of the great philosopher Ayn Rand “I don’t build in order to have clients. I have clients in order to build.” If you don’t like a product or service then it is the law of our wonderful land that you have a right to utilize your God-given talents to develop a better product or service. Complaining about the success of your industrious countrymen (be they corrupt or not) serves no useful purpose and fails to improve the circumstance of you or your community.

Disgruntled Patriot

[Disgruntled Patriot]

Before getting too carried away in demonizing the oil industry, consider the following:

– Crude oil alone makes up 54 percent of pump prices. Refining for 20 percent. Retailing another 11 percent. Taxes for 15 percent.

– The latest published data for the third quarter 2007 show the oil and natural gas industry earned 7.6 cents for every dollar of sales compared to 5.8 cents for all U.S. manufacturing and 9.2 cents for U.S. manufacturing, excluding the financially challenged auto industry.

– Earnings within the oil industry rank well below Beverage and Tobacco, Pharma, Electronics, Computer, Chemical, Aero, Apparel, and Machinery.

– The oil industry has spent $98 billion in emerging energy technologies since 2000—almost 73 percent of the total $138 billion spent by U.S. companies and the federal government combined.

– Company stock in the oil industry is owned by virtually all americans: 29.5% mutual funds, 27% pension funds, 23% individual investors, 14% IRA’s, 5% institutional, 1.5% corporate insiders.

– The average effective tax rate (current taxes) of the top 27 energy companies was 37.1 percent in 2006 ($81.5 billion). The effective tax rate for the market as a whole is 32.3 percent, or 3.3 percent less than the top energy companies.

– Petrochemicals are used not only for liquid and gas fuels, but also lubricants, plastics, and fertilizers.

The relationship of Big Oil to our society at large might be considered through the words of the great philosopher Ayn Rand “I don’t build in order to have clients. I have clients in order to build.” If you don’t like a product or service then it is the law of our wonderful land that you have a right to utilize your God-given talents to develop a better product or service. Complaining about the success of your industrious countrymen (be they corrupt or not) serves no useful purpose and fails to improve the circumstance of you or your community.

Disgruntled Patriot

[Disgruntled Patriot]

Before getting too carried away in demonizing the oil industry, consider the following:

– Crude oil alone makes up 54 percent of pump prices. Refining for 20 percent. Retailing another 11 percent. Taxes for 15 percent.

– The latest published data for the third quarter 2007 show the oil and natural gas industry earned 7.6 cents for every dollar of sales compared to 5.8 cents for all U.S. manufacturing and 9.2 cents for U.S. manufacturing, excluding the financially challenged auto industry.

– Earnings within the oil industry rank well below Beverage and Tobacco, Pharma, Electronics, Computer, Chemical, Aero, Apparel, and Machinery.

– The oil industry has spent $98 billion in emerging energy technologies since 2000—almost 73 percent of the total $138 billion spent by U.S. companies and the federal government combined.

– Company stock in the oil industry is owned by virtually all americans: 29.5% mutual funds, 27% pension funds, 23% individual investors, 14% IRA’s, 5% institutional, 1.5% corporate insiders.

– The average effective tax rate (current taxes) of the top 27 energy companies was 37.1 percent in 2006 ($81.5 billion). The effective tax rate for the market as a whole is 32.3 percent, or 3.3 percent less than the top energy companies.

– Petrochemicals are used not only for liquid and gas fuels, but also lubricants, plastics, and fertilizers.

The relationship of Big Oil to our society at large might be considered through the words of the great philosopher Ayn Rand “I don’t build in order to have clients. I have clients in order to build.” If you don’t like a product or service then it is the law of our wonderful land that you have a right to utilize your God-given talents to develop a better product or service. Complaining about the success of your industrious countrymen (be they corrupt or not) serves no useful purpose and fails to improve the circumstance of you or your community.

Disgruntled Patriot

[sdduuuude]

I think your assumption that consumers will “pay whatever price is being charged” is simply not correct.

Make sure you don’t mix up the idea of a monopoly/ogilopoly and price sensitivity.

Just because oil is needed, and there are a small number of sellers, doesn’t mean there is 100% insensitivity to price and that demand will not drop if the price is increased.

Also, given how much oil we use (waste?), I think usage could be reduced significantly with little loss in lifestyle. Thus, the price will have an effect on demand, especially when people are starting to feel poorer as they are now.

Not sure what you mean by “does the tax increase really matter?”

It does matter. It makes gas more expensive and lowers the profits of the oil industry.

The math works out to show that a tax manifests itself as both a price increase to buyers and a profit reduction to sellers. I forget the details, but the slope of the supply/demand curves affect what ratio of the new tax is absorbed by the buyers and the sellers. If buyers will buy at any price, they absorb the cost.

Again, this is related to price sensitivity, not to the number of sellers in the market. Even a tax in a monopolistic market can reduce the profits of the monopoly if the demand curve allows for it.

[sdduuuude]

I think your assumption that consumers will “pay whatever price is being charged” is simply not correct.

Make sure you don’t mix up the idea of a monopoly/ogilopoly and price sensitivity.

Just because oil is needed, and there are a small number of sellers, doesn’t mean there is 100% insensitivity to price and that demand will not drop if the price is increased.

Also, given how much oil we use (waste?), I think usage could be reduced significantly with little loss in lifestyle. Thus, the price will have an effect on demand, especially when people are starting to feel poorer as they are now.

Not sure what you mean by “does the tax increase really matter?”

It does matter. It makes gas more expensive and lowers the profits of the oil industry.

The math works out to show that a tax manifests itself as both a price increase to buyers and a profit reduction to sellers. I forget the details, but the slope of the supply/demand curves affect what ratio of the new tax is absorbed by the buyers and the sellers. If buyers will buy at any price, they absorb the cost.

Again, this is related to price sensitivity, not to the number of sellers in the market. Even a tax in a monopolistic market can reduce the profits of the monopoly if the demand curve allows for it.

[sdduuuude]

I think your assumption that consumers will “pay whatever price is being charged” is simply not correct.

Make sure you don’t mix up the idea of a monopoly/ogilopoly and price sensitivity.

Just because oil is needed, and there are a small number of sellers, doesn’t mean there is 100% insensitivity to price and that demand will not drop if the price is increased.

Also, given how much oil we use (waste?), I think usage could be reduced significantly with little loss in lifestyle. Thus, the price will have an effect on demand, especially when people are starting to feel poorer as they are now.

Not sure what you mean by “does the tax increase really matter?”

It does matter. It makes gas more expensive and lowers the profits of the oil industry.

The math works out to show that a tax manifests itself as both a price increase to buyers and a profit reduction to sellers. I forget the details, but the slope of the supply/demand curves affect what ratio of the new tax is absorbed by the buyers and the sellers. If buyers will buy at any price, they absorb the cost.

Again, this is related to price sensitivity, not to the number of sellers in the market. Even a tax in a monopolistic market can reduce the profits of the monopoly if the demand curve allows for it.

[sdduuuude]

I think your assumption that consumers will “pay whatever price is being charged” is simply not correct.

Make sure you don’t mix up the idea of a monopoly/ogilopoly and price sensitivity.

Just because oil is needed, and there are a small number of sellers, doesn’t mean there is 100% insensitivity to price and that demand will not drop if the price is increased.

Also, given how much oil we use (waste?), I think usage could be reduced significantly with little loss in lifestyle. Thus, the price will have an effect on demand, especially when people are starting to feel poorer as they are now.

Not sure what you mean by “does the tax increase really matter?”

It does matter. It makes gas more expensive and lowers the profits of the oil industry.

The math works out to show that a tax manifests itself as both a price increase to buyers and a profit reduction to sellers. I forget the details, but the slope of the supply/demand curves affect what ratio of the new tax is absorbed by the buyers and the sellers. If buyers will buy at any price, they absorb the cost.

Again, this is related to price sensitivity, not to the number of sellers in the market. Even a tax in a monopolistic market can reduce the profits of the monopoly if the demand curve allows for it.

[sdduuuude]

I think your assumption that consumers will “pay whatever price is being charged” is simply not correct.

Make sure you don’t mix up the idea of a monopoly/ogilopoly and price sensitivity.

Just because oil is needed, and there are a small number of sellers, doesn’t mean there is 100% insensitivity to price and that demand will not drop if the price is increased.

Also, given how much oil we use (waste?), I think usage could be reduced significantly with little loss in lifestyle. Thus, the price will have an effect on demand, especially when people are starting to feel poorer as they are now.

Not sure what you mean by “does the tax increase really matter?”

It does matter. It makes gas more expensive and lowers the profits of the oil industry.

The math works out to show that a tax manifests itself as both a price increase to buyers and a profit reduction to sellers. I forget the details, but the slope of the supply/demand curves affect what ratio of the new tax is absorbed by the buyers and the sellers. If buyers will buy at any price, they absorb the cost.

Again, this is related to price sensitivity, not to the number of sellers in the market. Even a tax in a monopolistic market can reduce the profits of the monopoly if the demand curve allows for it.

[DWCAP]

Sdduuuude,

My point wasnt that we are not sensitive to oil prices. We most certainly are. My point was that relative to Tech stocks, the demand curve is alot higher. We double the price of a gallon of gas and most people will still pay. (2000 proved that isnt true of stocks) They will cut back, some, but they will still pay most of the time. Housing is even steeper than oil because we dont all need gasoline (we all use oil in someway, everyday) look at people in downtown areas that are close to work. Many just bike or walk. We all do need some form of housing. (I know all about delivery trucks and moving vans and such, but I am talking about peoples personal decisions to buy, not macroeconomic interactions)
But those with big houses in the country that have to commute will still have to pay, they just may cut back on that ski trip to mammoth or that fishing trip. So demand will fall, but not as much as other things would.
Food is even a steeper demand curve. We may trade down from Steak to hamburger, but we still need to buy SOMETHING.

I dont have to buy your stock, I can move to cheaper areas if I dont like your housing, I can ride a bike if I dont want to pay for gas, but I have to eat something. No matter if it is processed grains themselves or something we fed grains too and then processed, we still have to eat.

[sdduuuude]

DWCAP – my reply was to the original poster.

[afx114]

Gas IS under priced, especially in the US, due to all of the government subsidies. Let see you get some ‘petrol’ in Europe for $4 a gallon.

[Dukehorn]

Interesting replies.

Sdude. I don’t necessarily agree with you on the dismissal of the oligopoly issue. Price sensitivity can only carry you so far. Folks need heating oil to survive in the NE. Yes, they can try not to heat their homes, but I don’t think that’s the argument you want to make. As for alternative transportation, there’s a certain flexibility to move to public transportation, but I, for example, am not going to move back to DC so I can use the Metro and I can’t move to LaJolla from 4S Ranch so that I can bike to work–I’d like to, but I can’t afford it (and for safety purposes, I wouldn’t want to make that bike ride at night on weekdays).

Disgruntled Patriot. You had a reasonable post till that “corrupt” tangent. Are you suggesting that my friends at the SEC and EPA not enforce the laws or that we not get upset if “corrupt” folks take advantage of others? I’m sure the ex-employees at Enron would disagree. However, IF, as this President states, we’re in a time of war, it is certainly unseemly that certain corporations profit off of it (War is supposedly about national sacrifice while our troops are dying-not about generating record profits)

As for “true pricing”
I’ve driven enough in Europe to understand that gas is underpriced. I’d rather have high pricing just to force some of the gas-guzzlers off the road.

My question is whether any economists here can resolve the issue of “record profits” with government subsidies (and the side issue of whether the tax increase is appropriate on these entities).

If this is a bubble, are the speculative costs being passed proportionately down to the consumers? It obviously doesn’t feel that way if Exxon is pulling in a few straight quarters of record profits.

[Arraya]

“If this is a bubble, are the speculative costs being passed proportionately down to the consumers? It obviously doesn’t feel that way if Exxon is pulling in a few straight quarters of record profits”

Oil is NOT a bubble.

-World production is flat and has been for 2+ years
-Exporting countries are using more of their oil internally thus exporting less.
-Even though there is a world economic slowdown demand is still higher than last year.
-Oil prices are very in-elastic
-The high quality oil is becoming harder to get and being replaced with lower quaility oil that is more expensive to refine.
-a 4% decline in the 70s and caused a 400% spike
-EIA put world demand down to 87 million bbl per day from 88 while production is still at 85ish.
-This trend will not stop with the exception of a serious recession/population reduction etc

All these so called analyists do a disservice by not explaining in more detail the supply/demand dynamic.

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/512436-oil-could-reach-us300-claims-expert

Just and FYI if read the article Matt Simmons was on the Cheney energy task force that is so so secretive.

[Aecetia]

Perhaps Congress should sponsor shale oil development, now that it is more affordable (at the current cost of oil). That should limit the oil hegemony.

[Arraya]

Perhaps Congress should sponsor shale oil development, now that it is more affordable (at the current cost of oil). That should limit the oil hegemony.

You have to understand EROEI(energy returned on energy invested). Shale is negative. They have pretty much given up on shale.

[Aecetia]

I found this on the Econbrowser, apparently oil was on $66. a barrel then…. something for the politicos to ponder.

“September 27, 2005
Oil shale report
A number of observers have been pointing to oil shale as the solution to all our energy problems. If oil shale does turn out to be the resource of the future, then our problems are only beginning.

Instapundit sees a ‘plan to put Middle East oil producers out of business’ in this story from the Rocky Mountain News:

[W]ith crude oil above $66 a barrel at the close of trading [on Sept. 20], oil shale is a promising alternative to crude. The Green River shale deposits in Colorado, Utah and Wyoming are estimated to contain 1.5 trillion to 1.8 trillion barrels of oil, and while not all of it can be recovered, half that amount is nearly triple the proven oil reserves of Saudi Arabia.”

[Arraya]

Methinks the Econbrowser does not understand energy….

You read about “oil from shale”, right? You heard about 1,000 billion barrels of oil out west? Don’t get excited, it’s going to stay there. Dr. Hubbert told the Senate Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs it wouldn’t work, three years ago this month.
It really sounds simple. You “simply” dig up such enormous quantities of shale (1.88 million tons a day,) that it’s equal to digging a Panama Canal every week. You crush it fine and heat to 1,100 degrees in a retort to boil off the oil locked in the rock. Then you get rid of the rock. Only now it’s turned caustic and has increased in bulk by 20% to 33%. So you back-fill the leftovers, called tailings, into the hole you dug it out of. Since you still have a lot left over, you dump it into the empty scenic canyons of the west. To do this you need to grab off 89% of the undeveloped water of Colorado and Utah and half of Wyoming’s. Oh yes, and you turn the Colorado River system into alkaline salts which means you wreck the agriculture in Colorado, Arizona and southern California. What will this get you? 1-1/2 million barrels of oil a day out of the 17 million per day that the U.S. is using!

A news item in the Milwaukee Journal of August 29, 1976,25 says that the last of the oil shale development companies, Standard Oil, Gulf, Shell and Ashland, have walked away from the projects in Colorado and Utah, asking the Department of the Interior to release them from paying any more on their leases. Standard and Gulf have already paid $126 million of the $210 million they bid, and Shell and Ashland have paid about $70 million of the $117.8 million they bid. You have to admit they tried, really tried and they spent a big buck to make it work, but it won’t

-Theoildrum

[Aecetia]

Perhaps clean energy is more to your liking:
How about this? Toshiba’s building a “Micro Nuclear” reactor for your garage?
Posted Dec 19th 2007 11:40AM by Paul Miller
Filed under: Household

Alright, details are slim, and we really have no idea if Toshiba has any plans whatsoever to sell these nuclear reactors to consumers — in fact, we hope it doesn’t — but it does seem like the company is well on its way to commercializing the design. Toshiba’s Micro Nuclear reactors are designed to power a single apartment building or city block, and measure a mere 20-feet by 6-feet. The 200 kilowatt reactor is fully automatic and fail-safe, and is completely self-sustaining. It uses special liquid lithium-6 reservoirs instead of traditional control rods, and can last up to 40 years, making energy for about 5 cents per kilowatt hour. Toshiba has been testing the reactors since 2005, and hopes to install its first reactor in Japan in 2008, with marketing to Europe and America in 2009.

[Arraya]

Feasible but it does nothing for transportation, which is the big issue.

What this all boils down to is we have to give up our cars. Also, air travel will only be for the rich.

I have a feeling will start a lot of new wars before we come to this realization though.

[Arraya]

Feasible but it does nothing for transportation, which is the big issue.

What this all boils down to is we have to give up our cars. Also, air travel will only be for the rich.

I have a feeling will start a lot of new wars before we come to this realization though.

[Arraya]

Feasible but it does nothing for transportation, which is the big issue.

What this all boils down to is we have to give up our cars. Also, air travel will only be for the rich.

I have a feeling will start a lot of new wars before we come to this realization though.

[Arraya]

Feasible but it does nothing for transportation, which is the big issue.

What this all boils down to is we have to give up our cars. Also, air travel will only be for the rich.

I have a feeling will start a lot of new wars before we come to this realization though.

[Arraya]

Feasible but it does nothing for transportation, which is the big issue.

What this all boils down to is we have to give up our cars. Also, air travel will only be for the rich.

I have a feeling will start a lot of new wars before we come to this realization though.

[Aecetia]

Perhaps clean energy is more to your liking:
How about this? Toshiba’s building a “Micro Nuclear” reactor for your garage?
Posted Dec 19th 2007 11:40AM by Paul Miller
Filed under: Household

Alright, details are slim, and we really have no idea if Toshiba has any plans whatsoever to sell these nuclear reactors to consumers — in fact, we hope it doesn’t — but it does seem like the company is well on its way to commercializing the design. Toshiba’s Micro Nuclear reactors are designed to power a single apartment building or city block, and measure a mere 20-feet by 6-feet. The 200 kilowatt reactor is fully automatic and fail-safe, and is completely self-sustaining. It uses special liquid lithium-6 reservoirs instead of traditional control rods, and can last up to 40 years, making energy for about 5 cents per kilowatt hour. Toshiba has been testing the reactors since 2005, and hopes to install its first reactor in Japan in 2008, with marketing to Europe and America in 2009.

[Aecetia]

Perhaps clean energy is more to your liking:
How about this? Toshiba’s building a “Micro Nuclear” reactor for your garage?
Posted Dec 19th 2007 11:40AM by Paul Miller
Filed under: Household

Alright, details are slim, and we really have no idea if Toshiba has any plans whatsoever to sell these nuclear reactors to consumers — in fact, we hope it doesn’t — but it does seem like the company is well on its way to commercializing the design. Toshiba’s Micro Nuclear reactors are designed to power a single apartment building or city block, and measure a mere 20-feet by 6-feet. The 200 kilowatt reactor is fully automatic and fail-safe, and is completely self-sustaining. It uses special liquid lithium-6 reservoirs instead of traditional control rods, and can last up to 40 years, making energy for about 5 cents per kilowatt hour. Toshiba has been testing the reactors since 2005, and hopes to install its first reactor in Japan in 2008, with marketing to Europe and America in 2009.

[Aecetia]

Perhaps clean energy is more to your liking:
How about this? Toshiba’s building a “Micro Nuclear” reactor for your garage?
Posted Dec 19th 2007 11:40AM by Paul Miller
Filed under: Household

Alright, details are slim, and we really have no idea if Toshiba has any plans whatsoever to sell these nuclear reactors to consumers — in fact, we hope it doesn’t — but it does seem like the company is well on its way to commercializing the design. Toshiba’s Micro Nuclear reactors are designed to power a single apartment building or city block, and measure a mere 20-feet by 6-feet. The 200 kilowatt reactor is fully automatic and fail-safe, and is completely self-sustaining. It uses special liquid lithium-6 reservoirs instead of traditional control rods, and can last up to 40 years, making energy for about 5 cents per kilowatt hour. Toshiba has been testing the reactors since 2005, and hopes to install its first reactor in Japan in 2008, with marketing to Europe and America in 2009.

[Aecetia]

Perhaps clean energy is more to your liking:
How about this? Toshiba’s building a “Micro Nuclear” reactor for your garage?
Posted Dec 19th 2007 11:40AM by Paul Miller
Filed under: Household

Alright, details are slim, and we really have no idea if Toshiba has any plans whatsoever to sell these nuclear reactors to consumers — in fact, we hope it doesn’t — but it does seem like the company is well on its way to commercializing the design. Toshiba’s Micro Nuclear reactors are designed to power a single apartment building or city block, and measure a mere 20-feet by 6-feet. The 200 kilowatt reactor is fully automatic and fail-safe, and is completely self-sustaining. It uses special liquid lithium-6 reservoirs instead of traditional control rods, and can last up to 40 years, making energy for about 5 cents per kilowatt hour. Toshiba has been testing the reactors since 2005, and hopes to install its first reactor in Japan in 2008, with marketing to Europe and America in 2009.

[Arraya]

Methinks the Econbrowser does not understand energy….

You read about “oil from shale”, right? You heard about 1,000 billion barrels of oil out west? Don’t get excited, it’s going to stay there. Dr. Hubbert told the Senate Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs it wouldn’t work, three years ago this month.
It really sounds simple. You “simply” dig up such enormous quantities of shale (1.88 million tons a day,) that it’s equal to digging a Panama Canal every week. You crush it fine and heat to 1,100 degrees in a retort to boil off the oil locked in the rock. Then you get rid of the rock. Only now it’s turned caustic and has increased in bulk by 20% to 33%. So you back-fill the leftovers, called tailings, into the hole you dug it out of. Since you still have a lot left over, you dump it into the empty scenic canyons of the west. To do this you need to grab off 89% of the undeveloped water of Colorado and Utah and half of Wyoming’s. Oh yes, and you turn the Colorado River system into alkaline salts which means you wreck the agriculture in Colorado, Arizona and southern California. What will this get you? 1-1/2 million barrels of oil a day out of the 17 million per day that the U.S. is using!

A news item in the Milwaukee Journal of August 29, 1976,25 says that the last of the oil shale development companies, Standard Oil, Gulf, Shell and Ashland, have walked away from the projects in Colorado and Utah, asking the Department of the Interior to release them from paying any more on their leases. Standard and Gulf have already paid $126 million of the $210 million they bid, and Shell and Ashland have paid about $70 million of the $117.8 million they bid. You have to admit they tried, really tried and they spent a big buck to make it work, but it won’t

-Theoildrum

[Arraya]

Methinks the Econbrowser does not understand energy….

You read about “oil from shale”, right? You heard about 1,000 billion barrels of oil out west? Don’t get excited, it’s going to stay there. Dr. Hubbert told the Senate Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs it wouldn’t work, three years ago this month.
It really sounds simple. You “simply” dig up such enormous quantities of shale (1.88 million tons a day,) that it’s equal to digging a Panama Canal every week. You crush it fine and heat to 1,100 degrees in a retort to boil off the oil locked in the rock. Then you get rid of the rock. Only now it’s turned caustic and has increased in bulk by 20% to 33%. So you back-fill the leftovers, called tailings, into the hole you dug it out of. Since you still have a lot left over, you dump it into the empty scenic canyons of the west. To do this you need to grab off 89% of the undeveloped water of Colorado and Utah and half of Wyoming’s. Oh yes, and you turn the Colorado River system into alkaline salts which means you wreck the agriculture in Colorado, Arizona and southern California. What will this get you? 1-1/2 million barrels of oil a day out of the 17 million per day that the U.S. is using!

A news item in the Milwaukee Journal of August 29, 1976,25 says that the last of the oil shale development companies, Standard Oil, Gulf, Shell and Ashland, have walked away from the projects in Colorado and Utah, asking the Department of the Interior to release them from paying any more on their leases. Standard and Gulf have already paid $126 million of the $210 million they bid, and Shell and Ashland have paid about $70 million of the $117.8 million they bid. You have to admit they tried, really tried and they spent a big buck to make it work, but it won’t

-Theoildrum

[Arraya]

Methinks the Econbrowser does not understand energy….

You read about “oil from shale”, right? You heard about 1,000 billion barrels of oil out west? Don’t get excited, it’s going to stay there. Dr. Hubbert told the Senate Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs it wouldn’t work, three years ago this month.
It really sounds simple. You “simply” dig up such enormous quantities of shale (1.88 million tons a day,) that it’s equal to digging a Panama Canal every week. You crush it fine and heat to 1,100 degrees in a retort to boil off the oil locked in the rock. Then you get rid of the rock. Only now it’s turned caustic and has increased in bulk by 20% to 33%. So you back-fill the leftovers, called tailings, into the hole you dug it out of. Since you still have a lot left over, you dump it into the empty scenic canyons of the west. To do this you need to grab off 89% of the undeveloped water of Colorado and Utah and half of Wyoming’s. Oh yes, and you turn the Colorado River system into alkaline salts which means you wreck the agriculture in Colorado, Arizona and southern California. What will this get you? 1-1/2 million barrels of oil a day out of the 17 million per day that the U.S. is using!

A news item in the Milwaukee Journal of August 29, 1976,25 says that the last of the oil shale development companies, Standard Oil, Gulf, Shell and Ashland, have walked away from the projects in Colorado and Utah, asking the Department of the Interior to release them from paying any more on their leases. Standard and Gulf have already paid $126 million of the $210 million they bid, and Shell and Ashland have paid about $70 million of the $117.8 million they bid. You have to admit they tried, really tried and they spent a big buck to make it work, but it won’t

-Theoildrum

[Arraya]

Methinks the Econbrowser does not understand energy….

You read about “oil from shale”, right? You heard about 1,000 billion barrels of oil out west? Don’t get excited, it’s going to stay there. Dr. Hubbert told the Senate Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs it wouldn’t work, three years ago this month.
It really sounds simple. You “simply” dig up such enormous quantities of shale (1.88 million tons a day,) that it’s equal to digging a Panama Canal every week. You crush it fine and heat to 1,100 degrees in a retort to boil off the oil locked in the rock. Then you get rid of the rock. Only now it’s turned caustic and has increased in bulk by 20% to 33%. So you back-fill the leftovers, called tailings, into the hole you dug it out of. Since you still have a lot left over, you dump it into the empty scenic canyons of the west. To do this you need to grab off 89% of the undeveloped water of Colorado and Utah and half of Wyoming’s. Oh yes, and you turn the Colorado River system into alkaline salts which means you wreck the agriculture in Colorado, Arizona and southern California. What will this get you? 1-1/2 million barrels of oil a day out of the 17 million per day that the U.S. is using!

A news item in the Milwaukee Journal of August 29, 1976,25 says that the last of the oil shale development companies, Standard Oil, Gulf, Shell and Ashland, have walked away from the projects in Colorado and Utah, asking the Department of the Interior to release them from paying any more on their leases. Standard and Gulf have already paid $126 million of the $210 million they bid, and Shell and Ashland have paid about $70 million of the $117.8 million they bid. You have to admit they tried, really tried and they spent a big buck to make it work, but it won’t

-Theoildrum

[Aecetia]

I found this on the Econbrowser, apparently oil was on $66. a barrel then…. something for the politicos to ponder.

“September 27, 2005
Oil shale report
A number of observers have been pointing to oil shale as the solution to all our energy problems. If oil shale does turn out to be the resource of the future, then our problems are only beginning.

Instapundit sees a ‘plan to put Middle East oil producers out of business’ in this story from the Rocky Mountain News:

[W]ith crude oil above $66 a barrel at the close of trading [on Sept. 20], oil shale is a promising alternative to crude. The Green River shale deposits in Colorado, Utah and Wyoming are estimated to contain 1.5 trillion to 1.8 trillion barrels of oil, and while not all of it can be recovered, half that amount is nearly triple the proven oil reserves of Saudi Arabia.”

[Aecetia]

I found this on the Econbrowser, apparently oil was on $66. a barrel then…. something for the politicos to ponder.

“September 27, 2005
Oil shale report
A number of observers have been pointing to oil shale as the solution to all our energy problems. If oil shale does turn out to be the resource of the future, then our problems are only beginning.

Instapundit sees a ‘plan to put Middle East oil producers out of business’ in this story from the Rocky Mountain News:

[W]ith crude oil above $66 a barrel at the close of trading [on Sept. 20], oil shale is a promising alternative to crude. The Green River shale deposits in Colorado, Utah and Wyoming are estimated to contain 1.5 trillion to 1.8 trillion barrels of oil, and while not all of it can be recovered, half that amount is nearly triple the proven oil reserves of Saudi Arabia.”

[Aecetia]

I found this on the Econbrowser, apparently oil was on $66. a barrel then…. something for the politicos to ponder.

“September 27, 2005
Oil shale report
A number of observers have been pointing to oil shale as the solution to all our energy problems. If oil shale does turn out to be the resource of the future, then our problems are only beginning.

Instapundit sees a ‘plan to put Middle East oil producers out of business’ in this story from the Rocky Mountain News:

[W]ith crude oil above $66 a barrel at the close of trading [on Sept. 20], oil shale is a promising alternative to crude. The Green River shale deposits in Colorado, Utah and Wyoming are estimated to contain 1.5 trillion to 1.8 trillion barrels of oil, and while not all of it can be recovered, half that amount is nearly triple the proven oil reserves of Saudi Arabia.”

[Aecetia]

I found this on the Econbrowser, apparently oil was on $66. a barrel then…. something for the politicos to ponder.

“September 27, 2005
Oil shale report
A number of observers have been pointing to oil shale as the solution to all our energy problems. If oil shale does turn out to be the resource of the future, then our problems are only beginning.

Instapundit sees a ‘plan to put Middle East oil producers out of business’ in this story from the Rocky Mountain News:

[W]ith crude oil above $66 a barrel at the close of trading [on Sept. 20], oil shale is a promising alternative to crude. The Green River shale deposits in Colorado, Utah and Wyoming are estimated to contain 1.5 trillion to 1.8 trillion barrels of oil, and while not all of it can be recovered, half that amount is nearly triple the proven oil reserves of Saudi Arabia.”

[Arraya]

Perhaps Congress should sponsor shale oil development, now that it is more affordable (at the current cost of oil). That should limit the oil hegemony.

You have to understand EROEI(energy returned on energy invested). Shale is negative. They have pretty much given up on shale.

[Arraya]

Perhaps Congress should sponsor shale oil development, now that it is more affordable (at the current cost of oil). That should limit the oil hegemony.

You have to understand EROEI(energy returned on energy invested). Shale is negative. They have pretty much given up on shale.

[Arraya]

Perhaps Congress should sponsor shale oil development, now that it is more affordable (at the current cost of oil). That should limit the oil hegemony.

You have to understand EROEI(energy returned on energy invested). Shale is negative. They have pretty much given up on shale.

[Arraya]

Perhaps Congress should sponsor shale oil development, now that it is more affordable (at the current cost of oil). That should limit the oil hegemony.

You have to understand EROEI(energy returned on energy invested). Shale is negative. They have pretty much given up on shale.

[Aecetia]

Perhaps Congress should sponsor shale oil development, now that it is more affordable (at the current cost of oil). That should limit the oil hegemony.

[Aecetia]

Perhaps Congress should sponsor shale oil development, now that it is more affordable (at the current cost of oil). That should limit the oil hegemony.

[Aecetia]

Perhaps Congress should sponsor shale oil development, now that it is more affordable (at the current cost of oil). That should limit the oil hegemony.

[Aecetia]

Perhaps Congress should sponsor shale oil development, now that it is more affordable (at the current cost of oil). That should limit the oil hegemony.

[Arraya]

“If this is a bubble, are the speculative costs being passed proportionately down to the consumers? It obviously doesn’t feel that way if Exxon is pulling in a few straight quarters of record profits”

Oil is NOT a bubble.

-World production is flat and has been for 2+ years
-Exporting countries are using more of their oil internally thus exporting less.
-Even though there is a world economic slowdown demand is still higher than last year.
-Oil prices are very in-elastic
-The high quality oil is becoming harder to get and being replaced with lower quaility oil that is more expensive to refine.
-a 4% decline in the 70s and caused a 400% spike
-EIA put world demand down to 87 million bbl per day from 88 while production is still at 85ish.
-This trend will not stop with the exception of a serious recession/population reduction etc

All these so called analyists do a disservice by not explaining in more detail the supply/demand dynamic.

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/512436-oil-could-reach-us300-claims-expert

Just and FYI if read the article Matt Simmons was on the Cheney energy task force that is so so secretive.

[Arraya]

“If this is a bubble, are the speculative costs being passed proportionately down to the consumers? It obviously doesn’t feel that way if Exxon is pulling in a few straight quarters of record profits”

Oil is NOT a bubble.

-World production is flat and has been for 2+ years
-Exporting countries are using more of their oil internally thus exporting less.
-Even though there is a world economic slowdown demand is still higher than last year.
-Oil prices are very in-elastic
-The high quality oil is becoming harder to get and being replaced with lower quaility oil that is more expensive to refine.
-a 4% decline in the 70s and caused a 400% spike
-EIA put world demand down to 87 million bbl per day from 88 while production is still at 85ish.
-This trend will not stop with the exception of a serious recession/population reduction etc

All these so called analyists do a disservice by not explaining in more detail the supply/demand dynamic.

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/512436-oil-could-reach-us300-claims-expert

Just and FYI if read the article Matt Simmons was on the Cheney energy task force that is so so secretive.

[Arraya]

“If this is a bubble, are the speculative costs being passed proportionately down to the consumers? It obviously doesn’t feel that way if Exxon is pulling in a few straight quarters of record profits”

Oil is NOT a bubble.

-World production is flat and has been for 2+ years
-Exporting countries are using more of their oil internally thus exporting less.
-Even though there is a world economic slowdown demand is still higher than last year.
-Oil prices are very in-elastic
-The high quality oil is becoming harder to get and being replaced with lower quaility oil that is more expensive to refine.
-a 4% decline in the 70s and caused a 400% spike
-EIA put world demand down to 87 million bbl per day from 88 while production is still at 85ish.
-This trend will not stop with the exception of a serious recession/population reduction etc

All these so called analyists do a disservice by not explaining in more detail the supply/demand dynamic.

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/512436-oil-could-reach-us300-claims-expert

Just and FYI if read the article Matt Simmons was on the Cheney energy task force that is so so secretive.

[Arraya]

“If this is a bubble, are the speculative costs being passed proportionately down to the consumers? It obviously doesn’t feel that way if Exxon is pulling in a few straight quarters of record profits”

Oil is NOT a bubble.

-World production is flat and has been for 2+ years
-Exporting countries are using more of their oil internally thus exporting less.
-Even though there is a world economic slowdown demand is still higher than last year.
-Oil prices are very in-elastic
-The high quality oil is becoming harder to get and being replaced with lower quaility oil that is more expensive to refine.
-a 4% decline in the 70s and caused a 400% spike
-EIA put world demand down to 87 million bbl per day from 88 while production is still at 85ish.
-This trend will not stop with the exception of a serious recession/population reduction etc

All these so called analyists do a disservice by not explaining in more detail the supply/demand dynamic.

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/512436-oil-could-reach-us300-claims-expert

Just and FYI if read the article Matt Simmons was on the Cheney energy task force that is so so secretive.

[sdduuuude]

Dukehorn,

I wasn’t so much making a point as trying to point out that oligopolies can exist in both price sensitive and price insensitive markets. The original poster seemed to assume that an oligopoly impled a certan price sensitivity.

Also, was pointing out that while monopoloies and oligopolies in a “steady state” are loath to change prices, a sudden change to the market – such as a new tax – does affect the price.

[sdduuuude]

Dukehorn,

I wasn’t so much making a point as trying to point out that oligopolies can exist in both price sensitive and price insensitive markets. The original poster seemed to assume that an oligopoly impled a certan price sensitivity.

Also, was pointing out that while monopoloies and oligopolies in a “steady state” are loath to change prices, a sudden change to the market – such as a new tax – does affect the price.

[sdduuuude]

Dukehorn,

I wasn’t so much making a point as trying to point out that oligopolies can exist in both price sensitive and price insensitive markets. The original poster seemed to assume that an oligopoly impled a certan price sensitivity.

Also, was pointing out that while monopoloies and oligopolies in a “steady state” are loath to change prices, a sudden change to the market – such as a new tax – does affect the price.

[sdduuuude]

Dukehorn,

I wasn’t so much making a point as trying to point out that oligopolies can exist in both price sensitive and price insensitive markets. The original poster seemed to assume that an oligopoly impled a certan price sensitivity.

Also, was pointing out that while monopoloies and oligopolies in a “steady state” are loath to change prices, a sudden change to the market – such as a new tax – does affect the price.

[sdduuuude]

Dukehorn,

I wasn’t so much making a point as trying to point out that oligopolies can exist in both price sensitive and price insensitive markets. The original poster seemed to assume that an oligopoly impled a certan price sensitivity.

Also, was pointing out that while monopoloies and oligopolies in a “steady state” are loath to change prices, a sudden change to the market – such as a new tax – does affect the price.

[Dukehorn]

Interesting replies.

Sdude. I don’t necessarily agree with you on the dismissal of the oligopoly issue. Price sensitivity can only carry you so far. Folks need heating oil to survive in the NE. Yes, they can try not to heat their homes, but I don’t think that’s the argument you want to make. As for alternative transportation, there’s a certain flexibility to move to public transportation, but I, for example, am not going to move back to DC so I can use the Metro and I can’t move to LaJolla from 4S Ranch so that I can bike to work–I’d like to, but I can’t afford it (and for safety purposes, I wouldn’t want to make that bike ride at night on weekdays).

Disgruntled Patriot. You had a reasonable post till that “corrupt” tangent. Are you suggesting that my friends at the SEC and EPA not enforce the laws or that we not get upset if “corrupt” folks take advantage of others? I’m sure the ex-employees at Enron would disagree. However, IF, as this President states, we’re in a time of war, it is certainly unseemly that certain corporations profit off of it (War is supposedly about national sacrifice while our troops are dying-not about generating record profits)

As for “true pricing”
I’ve driven enough in Europe to understand that gas is underpriced. I’d rather have high pricing just to force some of the gas-guzzlers off the road.

My question is whether any economists here can resolve the issue of “record profits” with government subsidies (and the side issue of whether the tax increase is appropriate on these entities).

If this is a bubble, are the speculative costs being passed proportionately down to the consumers? It obviously doesn’t feel that way if Exxon is pulling in a few straight quarters of record profits.

[Dukehorn]

Interesting replies.

Sdude. I don’t necessarily agree with you on the dismissal of the oligopoly issue. Price sensitivity can only carry you so far. Folks need heating oil to survive in the NE. Yes, they can try not to heat their homes, but I don’t think that’s the argument you want to make. As for alternative transportation, there’s a certain flexibility to move to public transportation, but I, for example, am not going to move back to DC so I can use the Metro and I can’t move to LaJolla from 4S Ranch so that I can bike to work–I’d like to, but I can’t afford it (and for safety purposes, I wouldn’t want to make that bike ride at night on weekdays).

Disgruntled Patriot. You had a reasonable post till that “corrupt” tangent. Are you suggesting that my friends at the SEC and EPA not enforce the laws or that we not get upset if “corrupt” folks take advantage of others? I’m sure the ex-employees at Enron would disagree. However, IF, as this President states, we’re in a time of war, it is certainly unseemly that certain corporations profit off of it (War is supposedly about national sacrifice while our troops are dying-not about generating record profits)

As for “true pricing”
I’ve driven enough in Europe to understand that gas is underpriced. I’d rather have high pricing just to force some of the gas-guzzlers off the road.

My question is whether any economists here can resolve the issue of “record profits” with government subsidies (and the side issue of whether the tax increase is appropriate on these entities).

If this is a bubble, are the speculative costs being passed proportionately down to the consumers? It obviously doesn’t feel that way if Exxon is pulling in a few straight quarters of record profits.

[Dukehorn]

Interesting replies.

Sdude. I don’t necessarily agree with you on the dismissal of the oligopoly issue. Price sensitivity can only carry you so far. Folks need heating oil to survive in the NE. Yes, they can try not to heat their homes, but I don’t think that’s the argument you want to make. As for alternative transportation, there’s a certain flexibility to move to public transportation, but I, for example, am not going to move back to DC so I can use the Metro and I can’t move to LaJolla from 4S Ranch so that I can bike to work–I’d like to, but I can’t afford it (and for safety purposes, I wouldn’t want to make that bike ride at night on weekdays).

Disgruntled Patriot. You had a reasonable post till that “corrupt” tangent. Are you suggesting that my friends at the SEC and EPA not enforce the laws or that we not get upset if “corrupt” folks take advantage of others? I’m sure the ex-employees at Enron would disagree. However, IF, as this President states, we’re in a time of war, it is certainly unseemly that certain corporations profit off of it (War is supposedly about national sacrifice while our troops are dying-not about generating record profits)

As for “true pricing”
I’ve driven enough in Europe to understand that gas is underpriced. I’d rather have high pricing just to force some of the gas-guzzlers off the road.

My question is whether any economists here can resolve the issue of “record profits” with government subsidies (and the side issue of whether the tax increase is appropriate on these entities).

If this is a bubble, are the speculative costs being passed proportionately down to the consumers? It obviously doesn’t feel that way if Exxon is pulling in a few straight quarters of record profits.

[Dukehorn]

Interesting replies.

Sdude. I don’t necessarily agree with you on the dismissal of the oligopoly issue. Price sensitivity can only carry you so far. Folks need heating oil to survive in the NE. Yes, they can try not to heat their homes, but I don’t think that’s the argument you want to make. As for alternative transportation, there’s a certain flexibility to move to public transportation, but I, for example, am not going to move back to DC so I can use the Metro and I can’t move to LaJolla from 4S Ranch so that I can bike to work–I’d like to, but I can’t afford it (and for safety purposes, I wouldn’t want to make that bike ride at night on weekdays).

Disgruntled Patriot. You had a reasonable post till that “corrupt” tangent. Are you suggesting that my friends at the SEC and EPA not enforce the laws or that we not get upset if “corrupt” folks take advantage of others? I’m sure the ex-employees at Enron would disagree. However, IF, as this President states, we’re in a time of war, it is certainly unseemly that certain corporations profit off of it (War is supposedly about national sacrifice while our troops are dying-not about generating record profits)

As for “true pricing”
I’ve driven enough in Europe to understand that gas is underpriced. I’d rather have high pricing just to force some of the gas-guzzlers off the road.

My question is whether any economists here can resolve the issue of “record profits” with government subsidies (and the side issue of whether the tax increase is appropriate on these entities).

If this is a bubble, are the speculative costs being passed proportionately down to the consumers? It obviously doesn’t feel that way if Exxon is pulling in a few straight quarters of record profits.

[afx114]

Gas IS under priced, especially in the US, due to all of the government subsidies. Let see you get some ‘petrol’ in Europe for $4 a gallon.

[afx114]

Gas IS under priced, especially in the US, due to all of the government subsidies. Let see you get some ‘petrol’ in Europe for $4 a gallon.

[afx114]

Gas IS under priced, especially in the US, due to all of the government subsidies. Let see you get some ‘petrol’ in Europe for $4 a gallon.

[afx114]

Gas IS under priced, especially in the US, due to all of the government subsidies. Let see you get some ‘petrol’ in Europe for $4 a gallon.

[sdduuuude]

DWCAP – my reply was to the original poster.

[sdduuuude]

DWCAP – my reply was to the original poster.

[sdduuuude]

DWCAP – my reply was to the original poster.

[sdduuuude]

DWCAP – my reply was to the original poster.

[DWCAP]

Sdduuuude,

My point wasnt that we are not sensitive to oil prices. We most certainly are. My point was that relative to Tech stocks, the demand curve is alot higher. We double the price of a gallon of gas and most people will still pay. (2000 proved that isnt true of stocks) They will cut back, some, but they will still pay most of the time. Housing is even steeper than oil because we dont all need gasoline (we all use oil in someway, everyday) look at people in downtown areas that are close to work. Many just bike or walk. We all do need some form of housing. (I know all about delivery trucks and moving vans and such, but I am talking about peoples personal decisions to buy, not macroeconomic interactions)
But those with big houses in the country that have to commute will still have to pay, they just may cut back on that ski trip to mammoth or that fishing trip. So demand will fall, but not as much as other things would.
Food is even a steeper demand curve. We may trade down from Steak to hamburger, but we still need to buy SOMETHING.

I dont have to buy your stock, I can move to cheaper areas if I dont like your housing, I can ride a bike if I dont want to pay for gas, but I have to eat something. No matter if it is processed grains themselves or something we fed grains too and then processed, we still have to eat.

[DWCAP]

Sdduuuude,

My point wasnt that we are not sensitive to oil prices. We most certainly are. My point was that relative to Tech stocks, the demand curve is alot higher. We double the price of a gallon of gas and most people will still pay. (2000 proved that isnt true of stocks) They will cut back, some, but they will still pay most of the time. Housing is even steeper than oil because we dont all need gasoline (we all use oil in someway, everyday) look at people in downtown areas that are close to work. Many just bike or walk. We all do need some form of housing. (I know all about delivery trucks and moving vans and such, but I am talking about peoples personal decisions to buy, not macroeconomic interactions)
But those with big houses in the country that have to commute will still have to pay, they just may cut back on that ski trip to mammoth or that fishing trip. So demand will fall, but not as much as other things would.
Food is even a steeper demand curve. We may trade down from Steak to hamburger, but we still need to buy SOMETHING.

I dont have to buy your stock, I can move to cheaper areas if I dont like your housing, I can ride a bike if I dont want to pay for gas, but I have to eat something. No matter if it is processed grains themselves or something we fed grains too and then processed, we still have to eat.

[DWCAP]

Sdduuuude,

My point wasnt that we are not sensitive to oil prices. We most certainly are. My point was that relative to Tech stocks, the demand curve is alot higher. We double the price of a gallon of gas and most people will still pay. (2000 proved that isnt true of stocks) They will cut back, some, but they will still pay most of the time. Housing is even steeper than oil because we dont all need gasoline (we all use oil in someway, everyday) look at people in downtown areas that are close to work. Many just bike or walk. We all do need some form of housing. (I know all about delivery trucks and moving vans and such, but I am talking about peoples personal decisions to buy, not macroeconomic interactions)
But those with big houses in the country that have to commute will still have to pay, they just may cut back on that ski trip to mammoth or that fishing trip. So demand will fall, but not as much as other things would.
Food is even a steeper demand curve. We may trade down from Steak to hamburger, but we still need to buy SOMETHING.

I dont have to buy your stock, I can move to cheaper areas if I dont like your housing, I can ride a bike if I dont want to pay for gas, but I have to eat something. No matter if it is processed grains themselves or something we fed grains too and then processed, we still have to eat.

[DWCAP]

Sdduuuude,

My point wasnt that we are not sensitive to oil prices. We most certainly are. My point was that relative to Tech stocks, the demand curve is alot higher. We double the price of a gallon of gas and most people will still pay. (2000 proved that isnt true of stocks) They will cut back, some, but they will still pay most of the time. Housing is even steeper than oil because we dont all need gasoline (we all use oil in someway, everyday) look at people in downtown areas that are close to work. Many just bike or walk. We all do need some form of housing. (I know all about delivery trucks and moving vans and such, but I am talking about peoples personal decisions to buy, not macroeconomic interactions)
But those with big houses in the country that have to commute will still have to pay, they just may cut back on that ski trip to mammoth or that fishing trip. So demand will fall, but not as much as other things would.
Food is even a steeper demand curve. We may trade down from Steak to hamburger, but we still need to buy SOMETHING.

I dont have to buy your stock, I can move to cheaper areas if I dont like your housing, I can ride a bike if I dont want to pay for gas, but I have to eat something. No matter if it is processed grains themselves or something we fed grains too and then processed, we still have to eat.

[Coronita]

If I read it right, I don't think it was Congress is going to tax oil industries more. It's that Congress is going to take away subsidies from oil industries.

Anyway, perhaps I'm too optimistic. But I think with high oil/gas prices, it will provide more incentive for us to come up with alternative energy sources…Because it may actually start to make sensennow.

Tesla anyone?

http://www.teslamotors.com/

The good news is that they worked out the transmission issue.  

[img_assist|nid=5962|title=selfportrait|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=100|height=80]

—– Sour grapes for everyone!

[Deal Hunter]

At what price point does gasoline have to be for people to change their fossil-fuel guzzling lives???

It’s nice to talk about alternative energy and Tesla cars (but, golly, I really want one of those), but it’s still a car – which means we’re not really ready for life as we know it to change.

Much more than cars are the things we have come to expect as our god-given American right to have lifestyle that are the real sources of our vast consumption of pertroleum:

-Fresh fruit from 8 different countries available at our local Costco.
-99 cents store
-Starbucks Monday special: Morning Roast Arabica Espresso
-Prestine corn on the cob, not half eaten by corn grubs
-Abnormally large avocados
-Abnormally small tomatoes
-Taco bell
-Bottled water
-Nike shoes
-iPods

I don’t see Americans doing without these things even if gas goes up to $10-$12. Maybe at $20?

[Deal Hunter]

At what price point does gasoline have to be for people to change their fossil-fuel guzzling lives???

It’s nice to talk about alternative energy and Tesla cars (but, golly, I really want one of those), but it’s still a car – which means we’re not really ready for life as we know it to change.

Much more than cars are the things we have come to expect as our god-given American right to have lifestyle that are the real sources of our vast consumption of pertroleum:

-Fresh fruit from 8 different countries available at our local Costco.
-99 cents store
-Starbucks Monday special: Morning Roast Arabica Espresso
-Prestine corn on the cob, not half eaten by corn grubs
-Abnormally large avocados
-Abnormally small tomatoes
-Taco bell
-Bottled water
-Nike shoes
-iPods

I don’t see Americans doing without these things even if gas goes up to $10-$12. Maybe at $20?

[Deal Hunter]

At what price point does gasoline have to be for people to change their fossil-fuel guzzling lives???

It’s nice to talk about alternative energy and Tesla cars (but, golly, I really want one of those), but it’s still a car – which means we’re not really ready for life as we know it to change.

Much more than cars are the things we have come to expect as our god-given American right to have lifestyle that are the real sources of our vast consumption of pertroleum:

-Fresh fruit from 8 different countries available at our local Costco.
-99 cents store
-Starbucks Monday special: Morning Roast Arabica Espresso
-Prestine corn on the cob, not half eaten by corn grubs
-Abnormally large avocados
-Abnormally small tomatoes
-Taco bell
-Bottled water
-Nike shoes
-iPods

I don’t see Americans doing without these things even if gas goes up to $10-$12. Maybe at $20?

[Deal Hunter]

At what price point does gasoline have to be for people to change their fossil-fuel guzzling lives???

It’s nice to talk about alternative energy and Tesla cars (but, golly, I really want one of those), but it’s still a car – which means we’re not really ready for life as we know it to change.

Much more than cars are the things we have come to expect as our god-given American right to have lifestyle that are the real sources of our vast consumption of pertroleum:

-Fresh fruit from 8 different countries available at our local Costco.
-99 cents store
-Starbucks Monday special: Morning Roast Arabica Espresso
-Prestine corn on the cob, not half eaten by corn grubs
-Abnormally large avocados
-Abnormally small tomatoes
-Taco bell
-Bottled water
-Nike shoes
-iPods

I don’t see Americans doing without these things even if gas goes up to $10-$12. Maybe at $20?

[Deal Hunter]

At what price point does gasoline have to be for people to change their fossil-fuel guzzling lives???

It’s nice to talk about alternative energy and Tesla cars (but, golly, I really want one of those), but it’s still a car – which means we’re not really ready for life as we know it to change.

Much more than cars are the things we have come to expect as our god-given American right to have lifestyle that are the real sources of our vast consumption of pertroleum:

-Fresh fruit from 8 different countries available at our local Costco.
-99 cents store
-Starbucks Monday special: Morning Roast Arabica Espresso
-Prestine corn on the cob, not half eaten by corn grubs
-Abnormally large avocados
-Abnormally small tomatoes
-Taco bell
-Bottled water
-Nike shoes
-iPods

I don’t see Americans doing without these things even if gas goes up to $10-$12. Maybe at $20?

[Arraya]

The good news is that they worked out the transmission issue.

One word “scalable”. Get it while you can.

All alternatives to transportation fuel have serious limitations.

Just can’t re-create what nature made. As much as we try.

Maybe the just in time technology fairy will come through, we’ll see….

EROEI

At what price point does gasoline have to be for people to change their fossil-fuel guzzling lives???

When we are given a societal structure that is no so dependent on it… Good luck on that one.

[4plexowner]

“The car of the future is a railroad car and a bike at the other end.”

This sounds like James Kunstler’s viewpoint – he thinks that all the talk of alternative energies is just typical human denial behavior – not wanting to accept that their unsustainable lifestyle (highly dependent on cheap petroleum) will have to change, they cling to fantasies like micro-nuclear generators in their garages, oil shale and oil tar sand

~

Speaking of Tesla. Has anyone researched Tesla’s inventions or Wardenclyffe Tower?

Some branch of the US government confiscated all of the experiments and equipment from Tesla’s laboratory – what was Tesla working on at the time? – where did that technology go? – why was Tesla’s tower torn down?

Immanuel Velikovsky is another interesting scholar – he was studying historical calendars and wanted to resolve what he perceived to be a dating mis-match between them – he thought that if he could find a global-wide event (earthquake, celestial phenomena, etc) he might be able to correlate the different calendars he was studying and resolve the dating mis-match

The global-wide event that Velikovsky found was a comet passing through our solar system – the event was documented by numerous sources originating from multiple peoples living on different parts of the planet – this discovery changed the direction of Velikovsky’s work and he ended up with a series of books documenting how comets have passed through our solar system and the effects those comets have had – his work was highly controversial at the time (1950s) and the mainstream scientific community actively tried to suppress it [if you have ever wondered about manna from heaven or fire and brimstone raining from the sky you need to read Velikovsky’s books for an interesting take on these phenomena]

James McCanney is another interesting scientist – he believes the universe is primarily electrical in nature and that the conventional gravitational models of the universe are incorrect – his books describe his electrical model of the universe and the plasma effects that occur when a comet passes through a solar system

I mention these three men for a reason – they all talk about the electrical nature of the universe and the type of events that would occur in an electrical universe – they all present evidence that makes the electrical model of the universe seem more logical and credible than the gravitational model being pushed by mainstream science – and, most importantly, they all hint at the unlimited energy that is available to us by tapping into the free electricity that permeates the universe

Tesla’s tower was an attempt to tap into this energy source – Velikovsky believed that the lost society of Atlantis had learned to tap this energy source – McCanney explains the science behind the energy source

Now here’s a conspiracy theory for you to think about: Tesla discovered how to tap into the free electricity coursing through the universe – he intended to provide this technology to mankind as part of their birthright to the stars – the implementation of this technology would be unacceptable to people with vested interests in petroleum so the technology was confiscated and suppressed

~

It’s ironic that I started this post by bashing people for clinging to fantasies and finished it by suggesting that we can tap into a free source of electricity – oh well, it isn’t easy being a whacko nutjob!

[4plexowner]

since we are talking about petroleum and how important it is to our society

I find it interesting that nobody knows for sure how petroleum is created on our planet – there are numerous theories but no consensus of opinion

Velikovsky explains where petroleum came from and McCanney explains the science

[Coronita]

since we are talking about petroleum and how important it is to our society

I find it interesting that nobody knows for sure how petroleum is created on our planet – there are numerous theories but no consensus of opinion

Velikovsky explains where petroleum came from and McCanney explains the science

 

Did your ever see the comedy "Airplane 2"? Dumb movie, but Jacob's explains it well.

Steve McCroskey: Jacobs, I want to know absolutely everything that's happened up till now.
Jacobs: Well, let's see. First the earth cooled. And then the dinosaurs came, but they got too big and fat, so they all died and they turned into oil. And then the Arabs came and they bought Mercedes Benzes. And Prince Charles started wearing all of Lady Di's clothes. I couldn't believe it…..

 

anyway, it will probably take $5+ gas prices before we see any material impact to the way americans consume gas and before we really push for alternative fuel imho. Still plenty of guzzling suv's out there.

 

Anyway, would some really rich person from piggington go pre-order your tesla from teslamotors so that

1) you can help teslamotors stay in business

2) you can tell me how the car drives?

http://www.teslamotors.com/

Come on. Trade in that ferrari, astro martin, porsche, or massarati. This is way cooler, not to mention a real flat torque curve, and good for the environment.

http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/acceleration_and_torque.php

Plus since this is a limited production car, you still get all bragging rights at the country clubs. You're buddies won't pick on you when they find out this does 3.6 in 0-60, and is built by lotus.By keeping teslamotors in business, you'll allow the rest of us peons to purchase whitestar:

http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/19/tesla-hopes-for-250-million-in-funding-for-electric-sedans/

 

Thank you 🙂

 

[img_assist|nid=5962|title=selfportrait|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=100|height=80]

—– Sour grapes for everyone!

[Nor-LA-SD-guy]

Fat,

I wish I had the Dough to buy the white star, (looking for something like this under 20 grand).

Maybe That puts me in the same class as the guy’s looking to buy ocean view homes under 400K .

A little unrealistic …. Maybe…

But I have hope ( Cheap lithium ion batteries are almost here ),

And they do already recycle them…

[Nor-LA-SD-guy]

Fat,

I wish I had the Dough to buy the white star, (looking for something like this under 20 grand).

Maybe That puts me in the same class as the guy’s looking to buy ocean view homes under 400K .

A little unrealistic …. Maybe…

But I have hope ( Cheap lithium ion batteries are almost here ),

And they do already recycle them…

[Nor-LA-SD-guy]

Fat,

I wish I had the Dough to buy the white star, (looking for something like this under 20 grand).

Maybe That puts me in the same class as the guy’s looking to buy ocean view homes under 400K .

A little unrealistic …. Maybe…

But I have hope ( Cheap lithium ion batteries are almost here ),

And they do already recycle them…

[Nor-LA-SD-guy]

Fat,

I wish I had the Dough to buy the white star, (looking for something like this under 20 grand).

Maybe That puts me in the same class as the guy’s looking to buy ocean view homes under 400K .

A little unrealistic …. Maybe…

But I have hope ( Cheap lithium ion batteries are almost here ),

And they do already recycle them…

[Nor-LA-SD-guy]

Fat,

I wish I had the Dough to buy the white star, (looking for something like this under 20 grand).

Maybe That puts me in the same class as the guy’s looking to buy ocean view homes under 400K .

A little unrealistic …. Maybe…

But I have hope ( Cheap lithium ion batteries are almost here ),

And they do already recycle them…

[sdduuuude]

Doesn anyone know of a good essay that really shows electric cars are good for the environment.

I mean, you have to make and eventually dispose of the batteries. You have to produce energy to charge them, and for all you know, that energy is coming from a coal-fired power plant.

It isn’t like a Tesla needs less energy to move. That energy has to come from somewhere and I suspect it is still coming from oil.

[Coronita]

Doesn anyone know of a good essay that really shows electric cars are good for the environment.

I mean, you have to make and eventually dispose of the batteries. You have to produce energy to charge them, and for all you know, that energy is coming from a coal-fired power plant.

It isn't like a Tesla needs less energy to move. That energy has to come from somewhere and I suspect it is still coming from oil.

 

There are alternatives to generating electricity. Although a good deal of it is still done through fossil fuels, the expectation is eventually we move toward better ways of generating it.

A lot of IT data centers are located in Washington state, because electricity is a lot cheaper dude to hydro-electrics, for example.

 

In San Diego, you could always hook up your solar panel to the tesla 🙂

 

Recycling of a litium ion battery for electric cars will be interesting. (Perhaps new businesses)?

 

 

 

[img_assist|nid=5962|title=selfportrait|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=100|height=80]

—– Sour grapes for everyone!

[Coronita]

Doesn anyone know of a good essay that really shows electric cars are good for the environment.

I mean, you have to make and eventually dispose of the batteries. You have to produce energy to charge them, and for all you know, that energy is coming from a coal-fired power plant.

It isn't like a Tesla needs less energy to move. That energy has to come from somewhere and I suspect it is still coming from oil.

 

There are alternatives to generating electricity. Although a good deal of it is still done through fossil fuels, the expectation is eventually we move toward better ways of generating it.

A lot of IT data centers are located in Washington state, because electricity is a lot cheaper dude to hydro-electrics, for example.

 

In San Diego, you could always hook up your solar panel to the tesla 🙂

 

Recycling of a litium ion battery for electric cars will be interesting. (Perhaps new businesses)?

 

 

 

[img_assist|nid=5962|title=selfportrait|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=100|height=80]

—– Sour grapes for everyone!

[Coronita]

Doesn anyone know of a good essay that really shows electric cars are good for the environment.

I mean, you have to make and eventually dispose of the batteries. You have to produce energy to charge them, and for all you know, that energy is coming from a coal-fired power plant.

It isn't like a Tesla needs less energy to move. That energy has to come from somewhere and I suspect it is still coming from oil.

 

There are alternatives to generating electricity. Although a good deal of it is still done through fossil fuels, the expectation is eventually we move toward better ways of generating it.

A lot of IT data centers are located in Washington state, because electricity is a lot cheaper dude to hydro-electrics, for example.

 

In San Diego, you could always hook up your solar panel to the tesla 🙂

 

Recycling of a litium ion battery for electric cars will be interesting. (Perhaps new businesses)?

 

 

 

[img_assist|nid=5962|title=selfportrait|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=100|height=80]

—– Sour grapes for everyone!

[Coronita]

Doesn anyone know of a good essay that really shows electric cars are good for the environment.

I mean, you have to make and eventually dispose of the batteries. You have to produce energy to charge them, and for all you know, that energy is coming from a coal-fired power plant.

It isn't like a Tesla needs less energy to move. That energy has to come from somewhere and I suspect it is still coming from oil.

 

There are alternatives to generating electricity. Although a good deal of it is still done through fossil fuels, the expectation is eventually we move toward better ways of generating it.

A lot of IT data centers are located in Washington state, because electricity is a lot cheaper dude to hydro-electrics, for example.

 

In San Diego, you could always hook up your solar panel to the tesla 🙂

 

Recycling of a litium ion battery for electric cars will be interesting. (Perhaps new businesses)?

 

 

 

[img_assist|nid=5962|title=selfportrait|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=100|height=80]

—– Sour grapes for everyone!

[Coronita]

Doesn anyone know of a good essay that really shows electric cars are good for the environment.

I mean, you have to make and eventually dispose of the batteries. You have to produce energy to charge them, and for all you know, that energy is coming from a coal-fired power plant.

It isn't like a Tesla needs less energy to move. That energy has to come from somewhere and I suspect it is still coming from oil.

 

There are alternatives to generating electricity. Although a good deal of it is still done through fossil fuels, the expectation is eventually we move toward better ways of generating it.

A lot of IT data centers are located in Washington state, because electricity is a lot cheaper dude to hydro-electrics, for example.

 

In San Diego, you could always hook up your solar panel to the tesla 🙂

 

Recycling of a litium ion battery for electric cars will be interesting. (Perhaps new businesses)?

 

 

 

[img_assist|nid=5962|title=selfportrait|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=100|height=80]

—– Sour grapes for everyone!

[sdduuuude]

Doesn anyone know of a good essay that really shows electric cars are good for the environment.

I mean, you have to make and eventually dispose of the batteries. You have to produce energy to charge them, and for all you know, that energy is coming from a coal-fired power plant.

It isn’t like a Tesla needs less energy to move. That energy has to come from somewhere and I suspect it is still coming from oil.

[sdduuuude]

Doesn anyone know of a good essay that really shows electric cars are good for the environment.

I mean, you have to make and eventually dispose of the batteries. You have to produce energy to charge them, and for all you know, that energy is coming from a coal-fired power plant.

It isn’t like a Tesla needs less energy to move. That energy has to come from somewhere and I suspect it is still coming from oil.

[sdduuuude]

Doesn anyone know of a good essay that really shows electric cars are good for the environment.

I mean, you have to make and eventually dispose of the batteries. You have to produce energy to charge them, and for all you know, that energy is coming from a coal-fired power plant.

It isn’t like a Tesla needs less energy to move. That energy has to come from somewhere and I suspect it is still coming from oil.

[sdduuuude]

Doesn anyone know of a good essay that really shows electric cars are good for the environment.

I mean, you have to make and eventually dispose of the batteries. You have to produce energy to charge them, and for all you know, that energy is coming from a coal-fired power plant.

It isn’t like a Tesla needs less energy to move. That energy has to come from somewhere and I suspect it is still coming from oil.

[sdduuuude]

I love this “what do we do without oil” topic, by the way.

I’m not so concerned about energy. I think alternative energy, economics and entrepreneurs will solve that problem in the long run.

I want to know how the medical industry, or any industry for that matter, will survive without plastic.

[Nor-LA-SD-guy]

I am pretty sure they can make Plastic out of plant stuff.

[Nor-LA-SD-guy]

I am pretty sure they can make Plastic out of plant stuff.

[Nor-LA-SD-guy]

I am pretty sure they can make Plastic out of plant stuff.

[Nor-LA-SD-guy]

I am pretty sure they can make Plastic out of plant stuff.

[Nor-LA-SD-guy]

I am pretty sure they can make Plastic out of plant stuff.

[sdduuuude]

I love this “what do we do without oil” topic, by the way.

I’m not so concerned about energy. I think alternative energy, economics and entrepreneurs will solve that problem in the long run.

I want to know how the medical industry, or any industry for that matter, will survive without plastic.

[sdduuuude]

I love this “what do we do without oil” topic, by the way.

I’m not so concerned about energy. I think alternative energy, economics and entrepreneurs will solve that problem in the long run.

I want to know how the medical industry, or any industry for that matter, will survive without plastic.

[sdduuuude]

I love this “what do we do without oil” topic, by the way.

I’m not so concerned about energy. I think alternative energy, economics and entrepreneurs will solve that problem in the long run.

I want to know how the medical industry, or any industry for that matter, will survive without plastic.

[sdduuuude]

I love this “what do we do without oil” topic, by the way.

I’m not so concerned about energy. I think alternative energy, economics and entrepreneurs will solve that problem in the long run.

I want to know how the medical industry, or any industry for that matter, will survive without plastic.

[Coronita]

since we are talking about petroleum and how important it is to our society

I find it interesting that nobody knows for sure how petroleum is created on our planet – there are numerous theories but no consensus of opinion

Velikovsky explains where petroleum came from and McCanney explains the science

 

Did your ever see the comedy "Airplane 2"? Dumb movie, but Jacob's explains it well.

Steve McCroskey: Jacobs, I want to know absolutely everything that's happened up till now.
Jacobs: Well, let's see. First the earth cooled. And then the dinosaurs came, but they got too big and fat, so they all died and they turned into oil. And then the Arabs came and they bought Mercedes Benzes. And Prince Charles started wearing all of Lady Di's clothes. I couldn't believe it…..

 

anyway, it will probably take $5+ gas prices before we see any material impact to the way americans consume gas and before we really push for alternative fuel imho. Still plenty of guzzling suv's out there.

 

Anyway, would some really rich person from piggington go pre-order your tesla from teslamotors so that

1) you can help teslamotors stay in business

2) you can tell me how the car drives?

http://www.teslamotors.com/

Come on. Trade in that ferrari, astro martin, porsche, or massarati. This is way cooler, not to mention a real flat torque curve, and good for the environment.

http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/acceleration_and_torque.php

Plus since this is a limited production car, you still get all bragging rights at the country clubs. You're buddies won't pick on you when they find out this does 3.6 in 0-60, and is built by lotus.By keeping teslamotors in business, you'll allow the rest of us peons to purchase whitestar:

http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/19/tesla-hopes-for-250-million-in-funding-for-electric-sedans/

 

Thank you 🙂

 

[img_assist|nid=5962|title=selfportrait|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=100|height=80]

—– Sour grapes for everyone!

[Coronita]

since we are talking about petroleum and how important it is to our society

I find it interesting that nobody knows for sure how petroleum is created on our planet – there are numerous theories but no consensus of opinion

Velikovsky explains where petroleum came from and McCanney explains the science

 

Did your ever see the comedy "Airplane 2"? Dumb movie, but Jacob's explains it well.

Steve McCroskey: Jacobs, I want to know absolutely everything that's happened up till now.
Jacobs: Well, let's see. First the earth cooled. And then the dinosaurs came, but they got too big and fat, so they all died and they turned into oil. And then the Arabs came and they bought Mercedes Benzes. And Prince Charles started wearing all of Lady Di's clothes. I couldn't believe it…..

 

anyway, it will probably take $5+ gas prices before we see any material impact to the way americans consume gas and before we really push for alternative fuel imho. Still plenty of guzzling suv's out there.

 

Anyway, would some really rich person from piggington go pre-order your tesla from teslamotors so that

1) you can help teslamotors stay in business

2) you can tell me how the car drives?

http://www.teslamotors.com/

Come on. Trade in that ferrari, astro martin, porsche, or massarati. This is way cooler, not to mention a real flat torque curve, and good for the environment.

http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/acceleration_and_torque.php

Plus since this is a limited production car, you still get all bragging rights at the country clubs. You're buddies won't pick on you when they find out this does 3.6 in 0-60, and is built by lotus.By keeping teslamotors in business, you'll allow the rest of us peons to purchase whitestar:

http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/19/tesla-hopes-for-250-million-in-funding-for-electric-sedans/

 

Thank you 🙂

 

[img_assist|nid=5962|title=selfportrait|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=100|height=80]

—– Sour grapes for everyone!

[Coronita]

since we are talking about petroleum and how important it is to our society

I find it interesting that nobody knows for sure how petroleum is created on our planet – there are numerous theories but no consensus of opinion

Velikovsky explains where petroleum came from and McCanney explains the science

 

Did your ever see the comedy "Airplane 2"? Dumb movie, but Jacob's explains it well.

Steve McCroskey: Jacobs, I want to know absolutely everything that's happened up till now.
Jacobs: Well, let's see. First the earth cooled. And then the dinosaurs came, but they got too big and fat, so they all died and they turned into oil. And then the Arabs came and they bought Mercedes Benzes. And Prince Charles started wearing all of Lady Di's clothes. I couldn't believe it…..

 

anyway, it will probably take $5+ gas prices before we see any material impact to the way americans consume gas and before we really push for alternative fuel imho. Still plenty of guzzling suv's out there.

 

Anyway, would some really rich person from piggington go pre-order your tesla from teslamotors so that

1) you can help teslamotors stay in business

2) you can tell me how the car drives?

http://www.teslamotors.com/

Come on. Trade in that ferrari, astro martin, porsche, or massarati. This is way cooler, not to mention a real flat torque curve, and good for the environment.

http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/acceleration_and_torque.php

Plus since this is a limited production car, you still get all bragging rights at the country clubs. You're buddies won't pick on you when they find out this does 3.6 in 0-60, and is built by lotus.By keeping teslamotors in business, you'll allow the rest of us peons to purchase whitestar:

http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/19/tesla-hopes-for-250-million-in-funding-for-electric-sedans/

 

Thank you 🙂

 

[img_assist|nid=5962|title=selfportrait|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=100|height=80]

—– Sour grapes for everyone!

[Coronita]

since we are talking about petroleum and how important it is to our society

I find it interesting that nobody knows for sure how petroleum is created on our planet – there are numerous theories but no consensus of opinion

Velikovsky explains where petroleum came from and McCanney explains the science

 

Did your ever see the comedy "Airplane 2"? Dumb movie, but Jacob's explains it well.

Steve McCroskey: Jacobs, I want to know absolutely everything that's happened up till now.
Jacobs: Well, let's see. First the earth cooled. And then the dinosaurs came, but they got too big and fat, so they all died and they turned into oil. And then the Arabs came and they bought Mercedes Benzes. And Prince Charles started wearing all of Lady Di's clothes. I couldn't believe it…..

 

anyway, it will probably take $5+ gas prices before we see any material impact to the way americans consume gas and before we really push for alternative fuel imho. Still plenty of guzzling suv's out there.

 

Anyway, would some really rich person from piggington go pre-order your tesla from teslamotors so that

1) you can help teslamotors stay in business

2) you can tell me how the car drives?

http://www.teslamotors.com/

Come on. Trade in that ferrari, astro martin, porsche, or massarati. This is way cooler, not to mention a real flat torque curve, and good for the environment.

http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/acceleration_and_torque.php

Plus since this is a limited production car, you still get all bragging rights at the country clubs. You're buddies won't pick on you when they find out this does 3.6 in 0-60, and is built by lotus.By keeping teslamotors in business, you'll allow the rest of us peons to purchase whitestar:

http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/19/tesla-hopes-for-250-million-in-funding-for-electric-sedans/

 

Thank you 🙂

 

[img_assist|nid=5962|title=selfportrait|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=100|height=80]

—– Sour grapes for everyone!

[4plexowner]

since we are talking about petroleum and how important it is to our society

I find it interesting that nobody knows for sure how petroleum is created on our planet – there are numerous theories but no consensus of opinion

Velikovsky explains where petroleum came from and McCanney explains the science

[4plexowner]

since we are talking about petroleum and how important it is to our society

I find it interesting that nobody knows for sure how petroleum is created on our planet – there are numerous theories but no consensus of opinion

Velikovsky explains where petroleum came from and McCanney explains the science

[4plexowner]

since we are talking about petroleum and how important it is to our society

I find it interesting that nobody knows for sure how petroleum is created on our planet – there are numerous theories but no consensus of opinion

Velikovsky explains where petroleum came from and McCanney explains the science

[4plexowner]

since we are talking about petroleum and how important it is to our society

I find it interesting that nobody knows for sure how petroleum is created on our planet – there are numerous theories but no consensus of opinion

Velikovsky explains where petroleum came from and McCanney explains the science

[NotCranky]

“It’s ironic that I started this post by bashing people for clinging to fantasies and finished it by suggesting that we can tap into a free source of electricity – oh well, it isn’t easy being a wacko nutjob!”

That was really good actually.

I thought to myself, who needs breakfast after reading such edifying stuff?Then it occurred to me a bowl of “wacko nutjob cereal” would be great to go with it. Maybe you could make your own cereal and put that post on you first edition “wacko cereal” box? ” “Stimulates Nerd Fantasys” “Piggingtonians Eat It Too!” “Free Tin Foil Hat in Every Box!”

[NotCranky]

“It’s ironic that I started this post by bashing people for clinging to fantasies and finished it by suggesting that we can tap into a free source of electricity – oh well, it isn’t easy being a wacko nutjob!”

That was really good actually.

I thought to myself, who needs breakfast after reading such edifying stuff?Then it occurred to me a bowl of “wacko nutjob cereal” would be great to go with it. Maybe you could make your own cereal and put that post on you first edition “wacko cereal” box? ” “Stimulates Nerd Fantasys” “Piggingtonians Eat It Too!” “Free Tin Foil Hat in Every Box!”

[NotCranky]

“It’s ironic that I started this post by bashing people for clinging to fantasies and finished it by suggesting that we can tap into a free source of electricity – oh well, it isn’t easy being a wacko nutjob!”

That was really good actually.

I thought to myself, who needs breakfast after reading such edifying stuff?Then it occurred to me a bowl of “wacko nutjob cereal” would be great to go with it. Maybe you could make your own cereal and put that post on you first edition “wacko cereal” box? ” “Stimulates Nerd Fantasys” “Piggingtonians Eat It Too!” “Free Tin Foil Hat in Every Box!”

[NotCranky]

“It’s ironic that I started this post by bashing people for clinging to fantasies and finished it by suggesting that we can tap into a free source of electricity – oh well, it isn’t easy being a wacko nutjob!”

That was really good actually.

I thought to myself, who needs breakfast after reading such edifying stuff?Then it occurred to me a bowl of “wacko nutjob cereal” would be great to go with it. Maybe you could make your own cereal and put that post on you first edition “wacko cereal” box? ” “Stimulates Nerd Fantasys” “Piggingtonians Eat It Too!” “Free Tin Foil Hat in Every Box!”

[NotCranky]

“It’s ironic that I started this post by bashing people for clinging to fantasies and finished it by suggesting that we can tap into a free source of electricity – oh well, it isn’t easy being a wacko nutjob!”

That was really good actually.

I thought to myself, who needs breakfast after reading such edifying stuff?Then it occurred to me a bowl of “wacko nutjob cereal” would be great to go with it. Maybe you could make your own cereal and put that post on you first edition “wacko cereal” box? ” “Stimulates Nerd Fantasys” “Piggingtonians Eat It Too!” “Free Tin Foil Hat in Every Box!”

[4plexowner]

“The car of the future is a railroad car and a bike at the other end.”

This sounds like James Kunstler’s viewpoint – he thinks that all the talk of alternative energies is just typical human denial behavior – not wanting to accept that their unsustainable lifestyle (highly dependent on cheap petroleum) will have to change, they cling to fantasies like micro-nuclear generators in their garages, oil shale and oil tar sand

~

Speaking of Tesla. Has anyone researched Tesla’s inventions or Wardenclyffe Tower?

Some branch of the US government confiscated all of the experiments and equipment from Tesla’s laboratory – what was Tesla working on at the time? – where did that technology go? – why was Tesla’s tower torn down?

Immanuel Velikovsky is another interesting scholar – he was studying historical calendars and wanted to resolve what he perceived to be a dating mis-match between them – he thought that if he could find a global-wide event (earthquake, celestial phenomena, etc) he might be able to correlate the different calendars he was studying and resolve the dating mis-match

The global-wide event that Velikovsky found was a comet passing through our solar system – the event was documented by numerous sources originating from multiple peoples living on different parts of the planet – this discovery changed the direction of Velikovsky’s work and he ended up with a series of books documenting how comets have passed through our solar system and the effects those comets have had – his work was highly controversial at the time (1950s) and the mainstream scientific community actively tried to suppress it [if you have ever wondered about manna from heaven or fire and brimstone raining from the sky you need to read Velikovsky’s books for an interesting take on these phenomena]

James McCanney is another interesting scientist – he believes the universe is primarily electrical in nature and that the conventional gravitational models of the universe are incorrect – his books describe his electrical model of the universe and the plasma effects that occur when a comet passes through a solar system

I mention these three men for a reason – they all talk about the electrical nature of the universe and the type of events that would occur in an electrical universe – they all present evidence that makes the electrical model of the universe seem more logical and credible than the gravitational model being pushed by mainstream science – and, most importantly, they all hint at the unlimited energy that is available to us by tapping into the free electricity that permeates the universe

Tesla’s tower was an attempt to tap into this energy source – Velikovsky believed that the lost society of Atlantis had learned to tap this energy source – McCanney explains the science behind the energy source

Now here’s a conspiracy theory for you to think about: Tesla discovered how to tap into the free electricity coursing through the universe – he intended to provide this technology to mankind as part of their birthright to the stars – the implementation of this technology would be unacceptable to people with vested interests in petroleum so the technology was confiscated and suppressed

~

It’s ironic that I started this post by bashing people for clinging to fantasies and finished it by suggesting that we can tap into a free source of electricity – oh well, it isn’t easy being a whacko nutjob!

[4plexowner]

“The car of the future is a railroad car and a bike at the other end.”

This sounds like James Kunstler’s viewpoint – he thinks that all the talk of alternative energies is just typical human denial behavior – not wanting to accept that their unsustainable lifestyle (highly dependent on cheap petroleum) will have to change, they cling to fantasies like micro-nuclear generators in their garages, oil shale and oil tar sand

~

Speaking of Tesla. Has anyone researched Tesla’s inventions or Wardenclyffe Tower?

Some branch of the US government confiscated all of the experiments and equipment from Tesla’s laboratory – what was Tesla working on at the time? – where did that technology go? – why was Tesla’s tower torn down?

Immanuel Velikovsky is another interesting scholar – he was studying historical calendars and wanted to resolve what he perceived to be a dating mis-match between them – he thought that if he could find a global-wide event (earthquake, celestial phenomena, etc) he might be able to correlate the different calendars he was studying and resolve the dating mis-match

The global-wide event that Velikovsky found was a comet passing through our solar system – the event was documented by numerous sources originating from multiple peoples living on different parts of the planet – this discovery changed the direction of Velikovsky’s work and he ended up with a series of books documenting how comets have passed through our solar system and the effects those comets have had – his work was highly controversial at the time (1950s) and the mainstream scientific community actively tried to suppress it [if you have ever wondered about manna from heaven or fire and brimstone raining from the sky you need to read Velikovsky’s books for an interesting take on these phenomena]

James McCanney is another interesting scientist – he believes the universe is primarily electrical in nature and that the conventional gravitational models of the universe are incorrect – his books describe his electrical model of the universe and the plasma effects that occur when a comet passes through a solar system

I mention these three men for a reason – they all talk about the electrical nature of the universe and the type of events that would occur in an electrical universe – they all present evidence that makes the electrical model of the universe seem more logical and credible than the gravitational model being pushed by mainstream science – and, most importantly, they all hint at the unlimited energy that is available to us by tapping into the free electricity that permeates the universe

Tesla’s tower was an attempt to tap into this energy source – Velikovsky believed that the lost society of Atlantis had learned to tap this energy source – McCanney explains the science behind the energy source

Now here’s a conspiracy theory for you to think about: Tesla discovered how to tap into the free electricity coursing through the universe – he intended to provide this technology to mankind as part of their birthright to the stars – the implementation of this technology would be unacceptable to people with vested interests in petroleum so the technology was confiscated and suppressed

~

It’s ironic that I started this post by bashing people for clinging to fantasies and finished it by suggesting that we can tap into a free source of electricity – oh well, it isn’t easy being a whacko nutjob!

[4plexowner]

“The car of the future is a railroad car and a bike at the other end.”

This sounds like James Kunstler’s viewpoint – he thinks that all the talk of alternative energies is just typical human denial behavior – not wanting to accept that their unsustainable lifestyle (highly dependent on cheap petroleum) will have to change, they cling to fantasies like micro-nuclear generators in their garages, oil shale and oil tar sand

~

Speaking of Tesla. Has anyone researched Tesla’s inventions or Wardenclyffe Tower?

Some branch of the US government confiscated all of the experiments and equipment from Tesla’s laboratory – what was Tesla working on at the time? – where did that technology go? – why was Tesla’s tower torn down?

Immanuel Velikovsky is another interesting scholar – he was studying historical calendars and wanted to resolve what he perceived to be a dating mis-match between them – he thought that if he could find a global-wide event (earthquake, celestial phenomena, etc) he might be able to correlate the different calendars he was studying and resolve the dating mis-match

The global-wide event that Velikovsky found was a comet passing through our solar system – the event was documented by numerous sources originating from multiple peoples living on different parts of the planet – this discovery changed the direction of Velikovsky’s work and he ended up with a series of books documenting how comets have passed through our solar system and the effects those comets have had – his work was highly controversial at the time (1950s) and the mainstream scientific community actively tried to suppress it [if you have ever wondered about manna from heaven or fire and brimstone raining from the sky you need to read Velikovsky’s books for an interesting take on these phenomena]

James McCanney is another interesting scientist – he believes the universe is primarily electrical in nature and that the conventional gravitational models of the universe are incorrect – his books describe his electrical model of the universe and the plasma effects that occur when a comet passes through a solar system

I mention these three men for a reason – they all talk about the electrical nature of the universe and the type of events that would occur in an electrical universe – they all present evidence that makes the electrical model of the universe seem more logical and credible than the gravitational model being pushed by mainstream science – and, most importantly, they all hint at the unlimited energy that is available to us by tapping into the free electricity that permeates the universe

Tesla’s tower was an attempt to tap into this energy source – Velikovsky believed that the lost society of Atlantis had learned to tap this energy source – McCanney explains the science behind the energy source

Now here’s a conspiracy theory for you to think about: Tesla discovered how to tap into the free electricity coursing through the universe – he intended to provide this technology to mankind as part of their birthright to the stars – the implementation of this technology would be unacceptable to people with vested interests in petroleum so the technology was confiscated and suppressed

~

It’s ironic that I started this post by bashing people for clinging to fantasies and finished it by suggesting that we can tap into a free source of electricity – oh well, it isn’t easy being a whacko nutjob!

[4plexowner]

“The car of the future is a railroad car and a bike at the other end.”

This sounds like James Kunstler’s viewpoint – he thinks that all the talk of alternative energies is just typical human denial behavior – not wanting to accept that their unsustainable lifestyle (highly dependent on cheap petroleum) will have to change, they cling to fantasies like micro-nuclear generators in their garages, oil shale and oil tar sand

~

Speaking of Tesla. Has anyone researched Tesla’s inventions or Wardenclyffe Tower?

Some branch of the US government confiscated all of the experiments and equipment from Tesla’s laboratory – what was Tesla working on at the time? – where did that technology go? – why was Tesla’s tower torn down?

Immanuel Velikovsky is another interesting scholar – he was studying historical calendars and wanted to resolve what he perceived to be a dating mis-match between them – he thought that if he could find a global-wide event (earthquake, celestial phenomena, etc) he might be able to correlate the different calendars he was studying and resolve the dating mis-match

The global-wide event that Velikovsky found was a comet passing through our solar system – the event was documented by numerous sources originating from multiple peoples living on different parts of the planet – this discovery changed the direction of Velikovsky’s work and he ended up with a series of books documenting how comets have passed through our solar system and the effects those comets have had – his work was highly controversial at the time (1950s) and the mainstream scientific community actively tried to suppress it [if you have ever wondered about manna from heaven or fire and brimstone raining from the sky you need to read Velikovsky’s books for an interesting take on these phenomena]

James McCanney is another interesting scientist – he believes the universe is primarily electrical in nature and that the conventional gravitational models of the universe are incorrect – his books describe his electrical model of the universe and the plasma effects that occur when a comet passes through a solar system

I mention these three men for a reason – they all talk about the electrical nature of the universe and the type of events that would occur in an electrical universe – they all present evidence that makes the electrical model of the universe seem more logical and credible than the gravitational model being pushed by mainstream science – and, most importantly, they all hint at the unlimited energy that is available to us by tapping into the free electricity that permeates the universe

Tesla’s tower was an attempt to tap into this energy source – Velikovsky believed that the lost society of Atlantis had learned to tap this energy source – McCanney explains the science behind the energy source

Now here’s a conspiracy theory for you to think about: Tesla discovered how to tap into the free electricity coursing through the universe – he intended to provide this technology to mankind as part of their birthright to the stars – the implementation of this technology would be unacceptable to people with vested interests in petroleum so the technology was confiscated and suppressed

~

It’s ironic that I started this post by bashing people for clinging to fantasies and finished it by suggesting that we can tap into a free source of electricity – oh well, it isn’t easy being a whacko nutjob!

[Arraya]

The good news is that they worked out the transmission issue.

One word “scalable”. Get it while you can.

All alternatives to transportation fuel have serious limitations.

Just can’t re-create what nature made. As much as we try.

Maybe the just in time technology fairy will come through, we’ll see….

EROEI

At what price point does gasoline have to be for people to change their fossil-fuel guzzling lives???

When we are given a societal structure that is no so dependent on it… Good luck on that one.

[Arraya]

The good news is that they worked out the transmission issue.

One word “scalable”. Get it while you can.

All alternatives to transportation fuel have serious limitations.

Just can’t re-create what nature made. As much as we try.

Maybe the just in time technology fairy will come through, we’ll see….

EROEI

At what price point does gasoline have to be for people to change their fossil-fuel guzzling lives???

When we are given a societal structure that is no so dependent on it… Good luck on that one.

[Arraya]

The good news is that they worked out the transmission issue.

One word “scalable”. Get it while you can.

All alternatives to transportation fuel have serious limitations.

Just can’t re-create what nature made. As much as we try.

Maybe the just in time technology fairy will come through, we’ll see….

EROEI

At what price point does gasoline have to be for people to change their fossil-fuel guzzling lives???

When we are given a societal structure that is no so dependent on it… Good luck on that one.

[Arraya]

The good news is that they worked out the transmission issue.

One word “scalable”. Get it while you can.

All alternatives to transportation fuel have serious limitations.

Just can’t re-create what nature made. As much as we try.

Maybe the just in time technology fairy will come through, we’ll see….

EROEI

At what price point does gasoline have to be for people to change their fossil-fuel guzzling lives???

When we are given a societal structure that is no so dependent on it… Good luck on that one.

[Coronita]

If I read it right, I don't think it was Congress is going to tax oil industries more. It's that Congress is going to take away subsidies from oil industries.

Anyway, perhaps I'm too optimistic. But I think with high oil/gas prices, it will provide more incentive for us to come up with alternative energy sources…Because it may actually start to make sensennow.

Tesla anyone?

http://www.teslamotors.com/

The good news is that they worked out the transmission issue.  

[img_assist|nid=5962|title=selfportrait|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=100|height=80]

—– Sour grapes for everyone!

[Coronita]

If I read it right, I don't think it was Congress is going to tax oil industries more. It's that Congress is going to take away subsidies from oil industries.

Anyway, perhaps I'm too optimistic. But I think with high oil/gas prices, it will provide more incentive for us to come up with alternative energy sources…Because it may actually start to make sensennow.

Tesla anyone?

http://www.teslamotors.com/

The good news is that they worked out the transmission issue.  

[img_assist|nid=5962|title=selfportrait|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=100|height=80]

—– Sour grapes for everyone!

[Coronita]

If I read it right, I don't think it was Congress is going to tax oil industries more. It's that Congress is going to take away subsidies from oil industries.

Anyway, perhaps I'm too optimistic. But I think with high oil/gas prices, it will provide more incentive for us to come up with alternative energy sources…Because it may actually start to make sensennow.

Tesla anyone?

http://www.teslamotors.com/

The good news is that they worked out the transmission issue.  

[img_assist|nid=5962|title=selfportrait|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=100|height=80]

—– Sour grapes for everyone!

[Coronita]

If I read it right, I don't think it was Congress is going to tax oil industries more. It's that Congress is going to take away subsidies from oil industries.

Anyway, perhaps I'm too optimistic. But I think with high oil/gas prices, it will provide more incentive for us to come up with alternative energy sources…Because it may actually start to make sensennow.

Tesla anyone?

http://www.teslamotors.com/

The good news is that they worked out the transmission issue.  

[img_assist|nid=5962|title=selfportrait|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=100|height=80]

—– Sour grapes for everyone!

[SHILOH]

Will the taxes accelerate market correction? Oil price will affect prices everywhere and cause spending contraction I would think…so that would seem also to accelerate housing falling because of job loss and slow or zero growth.

[SHILOH]

Will the taxes accelerate market correction? Oil price will affect prices everywhere and cause spending contraction I would think…so that would seem also to accelerate housing falling because of job loss and slow or zero growth.

[SHILOH]

Will the taxes accelerate market correction? Oil price will affect prices everywhere and cause spending contraction I would think…so that would seem also to accelerate housing falling because of job loss and slow or zero growth.

[SHILOH]

Will the taxes accelerate market correction? Oil price will affect prices everywhere and cause spending contraction I would think…so that would seem also to accelerate housing falling because of job loss and slow or zero growth.

[SHILOH]

Will the taxes accelerate market correction? Oil price will affect prices everywhere and cause spending contraction I would think…so that would seem also to accelerate housing falling because of job loss and slow or zero growth.

[DWCAP]

We can make alot of plastics out of other materials, or we could use a different base feedstock, like natural gas or coal. Oil, is a chain on carbon atoms with a boatload of hydrogen atoms sticking off it, and some other atoms in trace amounts. Gasoline, is a chain of Carbon about 5-10 atoms long. Natural gas is 1 atom long, things like Keroseen are longer(12-15 atoms). We have the ability to cram natural gas together to make any length chain we want, and we have HUGE amounts of natural gas. The problem is that it is hugely expensive to do it when comparied to getting the earth and a few million years to do it for you. We wont run outa plastic, well just use plastic in a much more efficient mannor and find substitutes for the disposable stuff, low value stuff.

As for the arguments about oil not being able to be replaced, and we’ll all just have to live very close together and not drive/fly and such, I just dont agree. Will things be a cheap as in the past. No. Will we need to start prioritizing our consumption? Yes. Will things grind to a hault and only the super rich be able to fly or drive? no.
Two reasons, eventually we will have gas/electric plug in hybrids. Considering 84% of the oil used today goes to make gasoline, and the average driver drives less than 60 miles a day while tests have shown this to be a reasonable distance that can be obtained from a battery. Therefore a replacement of todays cars with electric hybrids would be a substanial reduction of the total amount of gasoline we use. On the order of 50% or more. Reductions like this are not priced into peak oil priceing, (batteries of this size can be recycled, and many already are) which is the main defense of why today isnt a bubble.
Second, the defense here of current oil prices is a breakdown of the energy potential of gasoline versus human power into potential energy. That energy can also be obtained from far better sources than the human muscle. Geothermal, wind, water, and solar powers can all be brought to bear on the market much better than they are today. Add in nuclear, coal, natural gas, all of which are in abundant supply, and we have plenty of energy, we just need to get at it better than we have been. Oil is one of the most energy rich substances on earth, and their is alot of it. That doesnt mean that there isnt a bunch of other sources of energy around all far better than human muscle and many we already understand how to use.

If we want to price energy in potential energy…..

I have a close friend who works in the energy field (BP). We have discussed this repeatedly and the thing he always tells me when I get down on energy is this:
Everyday energy(10.55Zettajoules) hits the earth from the sun. As a world we used 0.471zetta joules in 2004! We use rougly 4% of the enegry hitting the earth in a day in a year. A 100 square mile area of the southern Arizona desert turned to the best solar arrays we have now could run the country. 100 square miles. That is renuable and uneneding with no real costs going into the mix except maintaince once completed. The problem other than the enviromental and political issues is simply that it would only cost a few trillion dollars to do. Once up and running and paid off, energy would cost near nothing. We have the ability to store energy for overnight needs, we have other sources of energy in Vast to enless quantities, and we have an unflagging demand. What we dont have is the will and the capital, because as soon as anyone has been willing to think of this stuff oil taps are turned on around the world and prices crash. No intellegent capital will do this until Saudi Arabia doesnt have the ability to crash prices if they so choose. Add in oil interest lobbying and the fact that this would spell doom for the coal and oil states (WY,WV,AK,MS,TX), plus drive a global collapse in the world economy as economic powerhouses such as Russia, Norway, the entire Middle East, and near collapses in Canada and Mexico, African countries and a few others kill global GPD growth.
We have PLENTY of energy for the next 3-5 billion years, the probelem is we need to learn how to get at it better. This isnt a problem of supply, it is a probelem of delivery to market, and some very smart individual is going to get very rich some day figuring that one out.

[Bloat]

DWCAP,

I read about this a couple months ago along the lines of your solar array discussion:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=a-solar-grand-plan

There are all kinds of ways to do it, personally I thought a system installed between and parallel to the hwys in the AZ, NV, NM desert would make install, maint, and power delivery easy. I would imagine much of this land is already owned by the government too. The article suggests it would take $420B over 40 years (about the cost of the average war).

I say how can we not do it and start such a project now. I also say tax all imported oil to finance it. A 3% tax would provide $14B/year. There are questions about enough resources to produce this quantity of panels though.

[Bloat]

DWCAP,

I read about this a couple months ago along the lines of your solar array discussion:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=a-solar-grand-plan

There are all kinds of ways to do it, personally I thought a system installed between and parallel to the hwys in the AZ, NV, NM desert would make install, maint, and power delivery easy. I would imagine much of this land is already owned by the government too. The article suggests it would take $420B over 40 years (about the cost of the average war).

I say how can we not do it and start such a project now. I also say tax all imported oil to finance it. A 3% tax would provide $14B/year. There are questions about enough resources to produce this quantity of panels though.

[Bloat]

DWCAP,

I read about this a couple months ago along the lines of your solar array discussion:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=a-solar-grand-plan

There are all kinds of ways to do it, personally I thought a system installed between and parallel to the hwys in the AZ, NV, NM desert would make install, maint, and power delivery easy. I would imagine much of this land is already owned by the government too. The article suggests it would take $420B over 40 years (about the cost of the average war).

I say how can we not do it and start such a project now. I also say tax all imported oil to finance it. A 3% tax would provide $14B/year. There are questions about enough resources to produce this quantity of panels though.

[Bloat]

DWCAP,

I read about this a couple months ago along the lines of your solar array discussion:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=a-solar-grand-plan

There are all kinds of ways to do it, personally I thought a system installed between and parallel to the hwys in the AZ, NV, NM desert would make install, maint, and power delivery easy. I would imagine much of this land is already owned by the government too. The article suggests it would take $420B over 40 years (about the cost of the average war).

I say how can we not do it and start such a project now. I also say tax all imported oil to finance it. A 3% tax would provide $14B/year. There are questions about enough resources to produce this quantity of panels though.

[Bloat]

DWCAP,

I read about this a couple months ago along the lines of your solar array discussion:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=a-solar-grand-plan

There are all kinds of ways to do it, personally I thought a system installed between and parallel to the hwys in the AZ, NV, NM desert would make install, maint, and power delivery easy. I would imagine much of this land is already owned by the government too. The article suggests it would take $420B over 40 years (about the cost of the average war).

I say how can we not do it and start such a project now. I also say tax all imported oil to finance it. A 3% tax would provide $14B/year. There are questions about enough resources to produce this quantity of panels though.

[DWCAP]

We can make alot of plastics out of other materials, or we could use a different base feedstock, like natural gas or coal. Oil, is a chain on carbon atoms with a boatload of hydrogen atoms sticking off it, and some other atoms in trace amounts. Gasoline, is a chain of Carbon about 5-10 atoms long. Natural gas is 1 atom long, things like Keroseen are longer(12-15 atoms). We have the ability to cram natural gas together to make any length chain we want, and we have HUGE amounts of natural gas. The problem is that it is hugely expensive to do it when comparied to getting the earth and a few million years to do it for you. We wont run outa plastic, well just use plastic in a much more efficient mannor and find substitutes for the disposable stuff, low value stuff.

As for the arguments about oil not being able to be replaced, and we’ll all just have to live very close together and not drive/fly and such, I just dont agree. Will things be a cheap as in the past. No. Will we need to start prioritizing our consumption? Yes. Will things grind to a hault and only the super rich be able to fly or drive? no.
Two reasons, eventually we will have gas/electric plug in hybrids. Considering 84% of the oil used today goes to make gasoline, and the average driver drives less than 60 miles a day while tests have shown this to be a reasonable distance that can be obtained from a battery. Therefore a replacement of todays cars with electric hybrids would be a substanial reduction of the total amount of gasoline we use. On the order of 50% or more. Reductions like this are not priced into peak oil priceing, (batteries of this size can be recycled, and many already are) which is the main defense of why today isnt a bubble.
Second, the defense here of current oil prices is a breakdown of the energy potential of gasoline versus human power into potential energy. That energy can also be obtained from far better sources than the human muscle. Geothermal, wind, water, and solar powers can all be brought to bear on the market much better than they are today. Add in nuclear, coal, natural gas, all of which are in abundant supply, and we have plenty of energy, we just need to get at it better than we have been. Oil is one of the most energy rich substances on earth, and their is alot of it. That doesnt mean that there isnt a bunch of other sources of energy around all far better than human muscle and many we already understand how to use.

If we want to price energy in potential energy…..

I have a close friend who works in the energy field (BP). We have discussed this repeatedly and the thing he always tells me when I get down on energy is this:
Everyday energy(10.55Zettajoules) hits the earth from the sun. As a world we used 0.471zetta joules in 2004! We use rougly 4% of the enegry hitting the earth in a day in a year. A 100 square mile area of the southern Arizona desert turned to the best solar arrays we have now could run the country. 100 square miles. That is renuable and uneneding with no real costs going into the mix except maintaince once completed. The problem other than the enviromental and political issues is simply that it would only cost a few trillion dollars to do. Once up and running and paid off, energy would cost near nothing. We have the ability to store energy for overnight needs, we have other sources of energy in Vast to enless quantities, and we have an unflagging demand. What we dont have is the will and the capital, because as soon as anyone has been willing to think of this stuff oil taps are turned on around the world and prices crash. No intellegent capital will do this until Saudi Arabia doesnt have the ability to crash prices if they so choose. Add in oil interest lobbying and the fact that this would spell doom for the coal and oil states (WY,WV,AK,MS,TX), plus drive a global collapse in the world economy as economic powerhouses such as Russia, Norway, the entire Middle East, and near collapses in Canada and Mexico, African countries and a few others kill global GPD growth.
We have PLENTY of energy for the next 3-5 billion years, the probelem is we need to learn how to get at it better. This isnt a problem of supply, it is a probelem of delivery to market, and some very smart individual is going to get very rich some day figuring that one out.

[DWCAP]

We can make alot of plastics out of other materials, or we could use a different base feedstock, like natural gas or coal. Oil, is a chain on carbon atoms with a boatload of hydrogen atoms sticking off it, and some other atoms in trace amounts. Gasoline, is a chain of Carbon about 5-10 atoms long. Natural gas is 1 atom long, things like Keroseen are longer(12-15 atoms). We have the ability to cram natural gas together to make any length chain we want, and we have HUGE amounts of natural gas. The problem is that it is hugely expensive to do it when comparied to getting the earth and a few million years to do it for you. We wont run outa plastic, well just use plastic in a much more efficient mannor and find substitutes for the disposable stuff, low value stuff.

As for the arguments about oil not being able to be replaced, and we’ll all just have to live very close together and not drive/fly and such, I just dont agree. Will things be a cheap as in the past. No. Will we need to start prioritizing our consumption? Yes. Will things grind to a hault and only the super rich be able to fly or drive? no.
Two reasons, eventually we will have gas/electric plug in hybrids. Considering 84% of the oil used today goes to make gasoline, and the average driver drives less than 60 miles a day while tests have shown this to be a reasonable distance that can be obtained from a battery. Therefore a replacement of todays cars with electric hybrids would be a substanial reduction of the total amount of gasoline we use. On the order of 50% or more. Reductions like this are not priced into peak oil priceing, (batteries of this size can be recycled, and many already are) which is the main defense of why today isnt a bubble.
Second, the defense here of current oil prices is a breakdown of the energy potential of gasoline versus human power into potential energy. That energy can also be obtained from far better sources than the human muscle. Geothermal, wind, water, and solar powers can all be brought to bear on the market much better than they are today. Add in nuclear, coal, natural gas, all of which are in abundant supply, and we have plenty of energy, we just need to get at it better than we have been. Oil is one of the most energy rich substances on earth, and their is alot of it. That doesnt mean that there isnt a bunch of other sources of energy around all far better than human muscle and many we already understand how to use.

If we want to price energy in potential energy…..

I have a close friend who works in the energy field (BP). We have discussed this repeatedly and the thing he always tells me when I get down on energy is this:
Everyday energy(10.55Zettajoules) hits the earth from the sun. As a world we used 0.471zetta joules in 2004! We use rougly 4% of the enegry hitting the earth in a day in a year. A 100 square mile area of the southern Arizona desert turned to the best solar arrays we have now could run the country. 100 square miles. That is renuable and uneneding with no real costs going into the mix except maintaince once completed. The problem other than the enviromental and political issues is simply that it would only cost a few trillion dollars to do. Once up and running and paid off, energy would cost near nothing. We have the ability to store energy for overnight needs, we have other sources of energy in Vast to enless quantities, and we have an unflagging demand. What we dont have is the will and the capital, because as soon as anyone has been willing to think of this stuff oil taps are turned on around the world and prices crash. No intellegent capital will do this until Saudi Arabia doesnt have the ability to crash prices if they so choose. Add in oil interest lobbying and the fact that this would spell doom for the coal and oil states (WY,WV,AK,MS,TX), plus drive a global collapse in the world economy as economic powerhouses such as Russia, Norway, the entire Middle East, and near collapses in Canada and Mexico, African countries and a few others kill global GPD growth.
We have PLENTY of energy for the next 3-5 billion years, the probelem is we need to learn how to get at it better. This isnt a problem of supply, it is a probelem of delivery to market, and some very smart individual is going to get very rich some day figuring that one out.

[DWCAP]

We can make alot of plastics out of other materials, or we could use a different base feedstock, like natural gas or coal. Oil, is a chain on carbon atoms with a boatload of hydrogen atoms sticking off it, and some other atoms in trace amounts. Gasoline, is a chain of Carbon about 5-10 atoms long. Natural gas is 1 atom long, things like Keroseen are longer(12-15 atoms). We have the ability to cram natural gas together to make any length chain we want, and we have HUGE amounts of natural gas. The problem is that it is hugely expensive to do it when comparied to getting the earth and a few million years to do it for you. We wont run outa plastic, well just use plastic in a much more efficient mannor and find substitutes for the disposable stuff, low value stuff.

As for the arguments about oil not being able to be replaced, and we’ll all just have to live very close together and not drive/fly and such, I just dont agree. Will things be a cheap as in the past. No. Will we need to start prioritizing our consumption? Yes. Will things grind to a hault and only the super rich be able to fly or drive? no.
Two reasons, eventually we will have gas/electric plug in hybrids. Considering 84% of the oil used today goes to make gasoline, and the average driver drives less than 60 miles a day while tests have shown this to be a reasonable distance that can be obtained from a battery. Therefore a replacement of todays cars with electric hybrids would be a substanial reduction of the total amount of gasoline we use. On the order of 50% or more. Reductions like this are not priced into peak oil priceing, (batteries of this size can be recycled, and many already are) which is the main defense of why today isnt a bubble.
Second, the defense here of current oil prices is a breakdown of the energy potential of gasoline versus human power into potential energy. That energy can also be obtained from far better sources than the human muscle. Geothermal, wind, water, and solar powers can all be brought to bear on the market much better than they are today. Add in nuclear, coal, natural gas, all of which are in abundant supply, and we have plenty of energy, we just need to get at it better than we have been. Oil is one of the most energy rich substances on earth, and their is alot of it. That doesnt mean that there isnt a bunch of other sources of energy around all far better than human muscle and many we already understand how to use.

If we want to price energy in potential energy…..

I have a close friend who works in the energy field (BP). We have discussed this repeatedly and the thing he always tells me when I get down on energy is this:
Everyday energy(10.55Zettajoules) hits the earth from the sun. As a world we used 0.471zetta joules in 2004! We use rougly 4% of the enegry hitting the earth in a day in a year. A 100 square mile area of the southern Arizona desert turned to the best solar arrays we have now could run the country. 100 square miles. That is renuable and uneneding with no real costs going into the mix except maintaince once completed. The problem other than the enviromental and political issues is simply that it would only cost a few trillion dollars to do. Once up and running and paid off, energy would cost near nothing. We have the ability to store energy for overnight needs, we have other sources of energy in Vast to enless quantities, and we have an unflagging demand. What we dont have is the will and the capital, because as soon as anyone has been willing to think of this stuff oil taps are turned on around the world and prices crash. No intellegent capital will do this until Saudi Arabia doesnt have the ability to crash prices if they so choose. Add in oil interest lobbying and the fact that this would spell doom for the coal and oil states (WY,WV,AK,MS,TX), plus drive a global collapse in the world economy as economic powerhouses such as Russia, Norway, the entire Middle East, and near collapses in Canada and Mexico, African countries and a few others kill global GPD growth.
We have PLENTY of energy for the next 3-5 billion years, the probelem is we need to learn how to get at it better. This isnt a problem of supply, it is a probelem of delivery to market, and some very smart individual is going to get very rich some day figuring that one out.

[DWCAP]

We can make alot of plastics out of other materials, or we could use a different base feedstock, like natural gas or coal. Oil, is a chain on carbon atoms with a boatload of hydrogen atoms sticking off it, and some other atoms in trace amounts. Gasoline, is a chain of Carbon about 5-10 atoms long. Natural gas is 1 atom long, things like Keroseen are longer(12-15 atoms). We have the ability to cram natural gas together to make any length chain we want, and we have HUGE amounts of natural gas. The problem is that it is hugely expensive to do it when comparied to getting the earth and a few million years to do it for you. We wont run outa plastic, well just use plastic in a much more efficient mannor and find substitutes for the disposable stuff, low value stuff.

As for the arguments about oil not being able to be replaced, and we’ll all just have to live very close together and not drive/fly and such, I just dont agree. Will things be a cheap as in the past. No. Will we need to start prioritizing our consumption? Yes. Will things grind to a hault and only the super rich be able to fly or drive? no.
Two reasons, eventually we will have gas/electric plug in hybrids. Considering 84% of the oil used today goes to make gasoline, and the average driver drives less than 60 miles a day while tests have shown this to be a reasonable distance that can be obtained from a battery. Therefore a replacement of todays cars with electric hybrids would be a substanial reduction of the total amount of gasoline we use. On the order of 50% or more. Reductions like this are not priced into peak oil priceing, (batteries of this size can be recycled, and many already are) which is the main defense of why today isnt a bubble.
Second, the defense here of current oil prices is a breakdown of the energy potential of gasoline versus human power into potential energy. That energy can also be obtained from far better sources than the human muscle. Geothermal, wind, water, and solar powers can all be brought to bear on the market much better than they are today. Add in nuclear, coal, natural gas, all of which are in abundant supply, and we have plenty of energy, we just need to get at it better than we have been. Oil is one of the most energy rich substances on earth, and their is alot of it. That doesnt mean that there isnt a bunch of other sources of energy around all far better than human muscle and many we already understand how to use.

If we want to price energy in potential energy…..

I have a close friend who works in the energy field (BP). We have discussed this repeatedly and the thing he always tells me when I get down on energy is this:
Everyday energy(10.55Zettajoules) hits the earth from the sun. As a world we used 0.471zetta joules in 2004! We use rougly 4% of the enegry hitting the earth in a day in a year. A 100 square mile area of the southern Arizona desert turned to the best solar arrays we have now could run the country. 100 square miles. That is renuable and uneneding with no real costs going into the mix except maintaince once completed. The problem other than the enviromental and political issues is simply that it would only cost a few trillion dollars to do. Once up and running and paid off, energy would cost near nothing. We have the ability to store energy for overnight needs, we have other sources of energy in Vast to enless quantities, and we have an unflagging demand. What we dont have is the will and the capital, because as soon as anyone has been willing to think of this stuff oil taps are turned on around the world and prices crash. No intellegent capital will do this until Saudi Arabia doesnt have the ability to crash prices if they so choose. Add in oil interest lobbying and the fact that this would spell doom for the coal and oil states (WY,WV,AK,MS,TX), plus drive a global collapse in the world economy as economic powerhouses such as Russia, Norway, the entire Middle East, and near collapses in Canada and Mexico, African countries and a few others kill global GPD growth.
We have PLENTY of energy for the next 3-5 billion years, the probelem is we need to learn how to get at it better. This isnt a problem of supply, it is a probelem of delivery to market, and some very smart individual is going to get very rich some day figuring that one out.

[poorgradstudent]

I couldn’t find the word “inflation” anywhere in this thread about $4 gas, which is odd for this board.

We have a loose monetary policy right now, which is causing the dollar to plummet. Hence, the price of goods we import is skyrocketing.

Ideally: As gas prices rise and show no signs of stopping, people will abandon their Hummers and huge SUVs and switch to more fuel efficient compacts and sedans.

Worst Case: High energy prices will create a political will to shift more of our energy production needs back to coal, with little regard for environmental impact.

Of course, there are tons of other possibilities in there, but yeah, don’t expect energy prices to plummet too much in the future.

[sdduuuude]

“Worst Case: High energy prices will create a political will to shift more of our energy production needs back to coal, with little regard for environmental impact.”

Yeah – that’s a great point. In tough times with higher oil prices, and a reality that offers only hope of cheap substitutes but no actual cheap substitutes, we’ll see just how green people really are.

How much does that Hybrid really save annually ? Not enough to cover the $8,000 extra you have to pay for it ?

Probalby not gonna sell, then, during tighter times.

[Bloat]

$8k more for a hybrid?

Depending on my next commute I’ve been considering the Prius and the Honda. The Prius is about $5k more than a comparable(?) Corolla. The Honda is about $4k more than a Civic LX. The Prius is still nicer than the Corolla, Honda is more likely to deal.

Toyota is doing a good job of keeping the cost down. I’m looking forward to the next generation where they claim to keep the cost the same (pending the sinking dollar?)

[Coronita]

Just leaked before the Geneva autoshow.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/01/geneva-08-preview-69-mpg-vw-golf-tdi-hybrid-leaks-out/

Now that's a hybrid. 69mph estimated.  One caveat…The electronics will probably fall apart in 4 years just like everything else VW builds.

 

[img_assist|nid=5962|title=selfportrait|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=100|height=80]

—– Sour grapes for everyone!

[Coronita]

Just leaked before the Geneva autoshow.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/01/geneva-08-preview-69-mpg-vw-golf-tdi-hybrid-leaks-out/

Now that's a hybrid. 69mph estimated.  One caveat…The electronics will probably fall apart in 4 years just like everything else VW builds.

 

[img_assist|nid=5962|title=selfportrait|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=100|height=80]

—– Sour grapes for everyone!

[Coronita]

Just leaked before the Geneva autoshow.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/01/geneva-08-preview-69-mpg-vw-golf-tdi-hybrid-leaks-out/

Now that's a hybrid. 69mph estimated.  One caveat…The electronics will probably fall apart in 4 years just like everything else VW builds.

 

[img_assist|nid=5962|title=selfportrait|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=100|height=80]

—– Sour grapes for everyone!

[Coronita]

Just leaked before the Geneva autoshow.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/01/geneva-08-preview-69-mpg-vw-golf-tdi-hybrid-leaks-out/

Now that's a hybrid. 69mph estimated.  One caveat…The electronics will probably fall apart in 4 years just like everything else VW builds.

 

[img_assist|nid=5962|title=selfportrait|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=100|height=80]

—– Sour grapes for everyone!

[Coronita]

Just leaked before the Geneva autoshow.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/01/geneva-08-preview-69-mpg-vw-golf-tdi-hybrid-leaks-out/

Now that's a hybrid. 69mph estimated.  One caveat…The electronics will probably fall apart in 4 years just like everything else VW builds.

 

[img_assist|nid=5962|title=selfportrait|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=100|height=80]

—– Sour grapes for everyone!

[Bloat]

$8k more for a hybrid?

Depending on my next commute I’ve been considering the Prius and the Honda. The Prius is about $5k more than a comparable(?) Corolla. The Honda is about $4k more than a Civic LX. The Prius is still nicer than the Corolla, Honda is more likely to deal.

Toyota is doing a good job of keeping the cost down. I’m looking forward to the next generation where they claim to keep the cost the same (pending the sinking dollar?)

[Bloat]

$8k more for a hybrid?

Depending on my next commute I’ve been considering the Prius and the Honda. The Prius is about $5k more than a comparable(?) Corolla. The Honda is about $4k more than a Civic LX. The Prius is still nicer than the Corolla, Honda is more likely to deal.

Toyota is doing a good job of keeping the cost down. I’m looking forward to the next generation where they claim to keep the cost the same (pending the sinking dollar?)

[Bloat]

$8k more for a hybrid?

Depending on my next commute I’ve been considering the Prius and the Honda. The Prius is about $5k more than a comparable(?) Corolla. The Honda is about $4k more than a Civic LX. The Prius is still nicer than the Corolla, Honda is more likely to deal.

Toyota is doing a good job of keeping the cost down. I’m looking forward to the next generation where they claim to keep the cost the same (pending the sinking dollar?)

[Bloat]

$8k more for a hybrid?

Depending on my next commute I’ve been considering the Prius and the Honda. The Prius is about $5k more than a comparable(?) Corolla. The Honda is about $4k more than a Civic LX. The Prius is still nicer than the Corolla, Honda is more likely to deal.

Toyota is doing a good job of keeping the cost down. I’m looking forward to the next generation where they claim to keep the cost the same (pending the sinking dollar?)

[sdduuuude]

“Worst Case: High energy prices will create a political will to shift more of our energy production needs back to coal, with little regard for environmental impact.”

Yeah – that’s a great point. In tough times with higher oil prices, and a reality that offers only hope of cheap substitutes but no actual cheap substitutes, we’ll see just how green people really are.

How much does that Hybrid really save annually ? Not enough to cover the $8,000 extra you have to pay for it ?

Probalby not gonna sell, then, during tighter times.

[sdduuuude]

“Worst Case: High energy prices will create a political will to shift more of our energy production needs back to coal, with little regard for environmental impact.”

Yeah – that’s a great point. In tough times with higher oil prices, and a reality that offers only hope of cheap substitutes but no actual cheap substitutes, we’ll see just how green people really are.

How much does that Hybrid really save annually ? Not enough to cover the $8,000 extra you have to pay for it ?

Probalby not gonna sell, then, during tighter times.

[sdduuuude]

“Worst Case: High energy prices will create a political will to shift more of our energy production needs back to coal, with little regard for environmental impact.”

Yeah – that’s a great point. In tough times with higher oil prices, and a reality that offers only hope of cheap substitutes but no actual cheap substitutes, we’ll see just how green people really are.

How much does that Hybrid really save annually ? Not enough to cover the $8,000 extra you have to pay for it ?

Probalby not gonna sell, then, during tighter times.

[sdduuuude]

“Worst Case: High energy prices will create a political will to shift more of our energy production needs back to coal, with little regard for environmental impact.”

Yeah – that’s a great point. In tough times with higher oil prices, and a reality that offers only hope of cheap substitutes but no actual cheap substitutes, we’ll see just how green people really are.

How much does that Hybrid really save annually ? Not enough to cover the $8,000 extra you have to pay for it ?

Probalby not gonna sell, then, during tighter times.

[poorgradstudent]

I couldn’t find the word “inflation” anywhere in this thread about $4 gas, which is odd for this board.

We have a loose monetary policy right now, which is causing the dollar to plummet. Hence, the price of goods we import is skyrocketing.

Ideally: As gas prices rise and show no signs of stopping, people will abandon their Hummers and huge SUVs and switch to more fuel efficient compacts and sedans.

Worst Case: High energy prices will create a political will to shift more of our energy production needs back to coal, with little regard for environmental impact.

Of course, there are tons of other possibilities in there, but yeah, don’t expect energy prices to plummet too much in the future.

[poorgradstudent]

I couldn’t find the word “inflation” anywhere in this thread about $4 gas, which is odd for this board.

We have a loose monetary policy right now, which is causing the dollar to plummet. Hence, the price of goods we import is skyrocketing.

Ideally: As gas prices rise and show no signs of stopping, people will abandon their Hummers and huge SUVs and switch to more fuel efficient compacts and sedans.

Worst Case: High energy prices will create a political will to shift more of our energy production needs back to coal, with little regard for environmental impact.

Of course, there are tons of other possibilities in there, but yeah, don’t expect energy prices to plummet too much in the future.

[poorgradstudent]

I couldn’t find the word “inflation” anywhere in this thread about $4 gas, which is odd for this board.

We have a loose monetary policy right now, which is causing the dollar to plummet. Hence, the price of goods we import is skyrocketing.

Ideally: As gas prices rise and show no signs of stopping, people will abandon their Hummers and huge SUVs and switch to more fuel efficient compacts and sedans.

Worst Case: High energy prices will create a political will to shift more of our energy production needs back to coal, with little regard for environmental impact.

Of course, there are tons of other possibilities in there, but yeah, don’t expect energy prices to plummet too much in the future.

[poorgradstudent]

I couldn’t find the word “inflation” anywhere in this thread about $4 gas, which is odd for this board.

We have a loose monetary policy right now, which is causing the dollar to plummet. Hence, the price of goods we import is skyrocketing.

Ideally: As gas prices rise and show no signs of stopping, people will abandon their Hummers and huge SUVs and switch to more fuel efficient compacts and sedans.

Worst Case: High energy prices will create a political will to shift more of our energy production needs back to coal, with little regard for environmental impact.

Of course, there are tons of other possibilities in there, but yeah, don’t expect energy prices to plummet too much in the future.

[cr]

You guys seen this?

It’s the way of the future….way of the future.

[cr]

You guys seen this?

It’s the way of the future….way of the future.

[cr]

You guys seen this?

It’s the way of the future….way of the future.

[cr]

You guys seen this?

It’s the way of the future….way of the future.

[cr]

You guys seen this?

It’s the way of the future….way of the future.

[alarmclock]

I saw this gas station goof ($31.5 / gallon instead of $3.15/gallon) and I realized that while I wouldn’t like it, I could probably afford to pay it, and I think most posters here could too. I currently use about 800 gallons of gas/year (I have to do a lot of driving). In such an event, I would switch to something 2x as efficient, like a civic.

http://www.local6.com/travelgetaways/15447343/detail.html

[cr]

I don’t believe it’s accurate to justify high US prices by looking at Europe.

The US produces much more oil domestically than Europe and that keeps our costs lower. Everything from inflation, a weak dollar, instability, and corrupt business/politics keeps the oil companies reaping record profits, while no one in the media/political arena raises an eyebrow.

[patientlywaiting]

Yeah, people can adjust but it takes a couple of generations.

IMHO, telecommuting is over-rated. It’s the human interaction that counts most. From a social interaction point of view, I don’t believe that people want to be isolated in suburban homes and in neighborhoods that are socially and culturally dead.

Young people like the city and want interaction. My prediction is that there’ll be a move back to the city. Builders will have to build affordable communities where HOAs aren’t $500 like most of Downtown is right now.

I find the new planned cities being built in China with community parks and shopping very fascinating. Creative American architects are at work building those cities.

[patientlywaiting]

Yeah, people can adjust but it takes a couple of generations.

IMHO, telecommuting is over-rated. It’s the human interaction that counts most. From a social interaction point of view, I don’t believe that people want to be isolated in suburban homes and in neighborhoods that are socially and culturally dead.

Young people like the city and want interaction. My prediction is that there’ll be a move back to the city. Builders will have to build affordable communities where HOAs aren’t $500 like most of Downtown is right now.

I find the new planned cities being built in China with community parks and shopping very fascinating. Creative American architects are at work building those cities.

[patientlywaiting]

Yeah, people can adjust but it takes a couple of generations.

IMHO, telecommuting is over-rated. It’s the human interaction that counts most. From a social interaction point of view, I don’t believe that people want to be isolated in suburban homes and in neighborhoods that are socially and culturally dead.

Young people like the city and want interaction. My prediction is that there’ll be a move back to the city. Builders will have to build affordable communities where HOAs aren’t $500 like most of Downtown is right now.

I find the new planned cities being built in China with community parks and shopping very fascinating. Creative American architects are at work building those cities.

[patientlywaiting]

Yeah, people can adjust but it takes a couple of generations.

IMHO, telecommuting is over-rated. It’s the human interaction that counts most. From a social interaction point of view, I don’t believe that people want to be isolated in suburban homes and in neighborhoods that are socially and culturally dead.

Young people like the city and want interaction. My prediction is that there’ll be a move back to the city. Builders will have to build affordable communities where HOAs aren’t $500 like most of Downtown is right now.

I find the new planned cities being built in China with community parks and shopping very fascinating. Creative American architects are at work building those cities.

[patientlywaiting]

Yeah, people can adjust but it takes a couple of generations.

IMHO, telecommuting is over-rated. It’s the human interaction that counts most. From a social interaction point of view, I don’t believe that people want to be isolated in suburban homes and in neighborhoods that are socially and culturally dead.

Young people like the city and want interaction. My prediction is that there’ll be a move back to the city. Builders will have to build affordable communities where HOAs aren’t $500 like most of Downtown is right now.

I find the new planned cities being built in China with community parks and shopping very fascinating. Creative American architects are at work building those cities.

[cr]

I don’t believe it’s accurate to justify high US prices by looking at Europe.

The US produces much more oil domestically than Europe and that keeps our costs lower. Everything from inflation, a weak dollar, instability, and corrupt business/politics keeps the oil companies reaping record profits, while no one in the media/political arena raises an eyebrow.

[cr]

I don’t believe it’s accurate to justify high US prices by looking at Europe.

The US produces much more oil domestically than Europe and that keeps our costs lower. Everything from inflation, a weak dollar, instability, and corrupt business/politics keeps the oil companies reaping record profits, while no one in the media/political arena raises an eyebrow.

[cr]

I don’t believe it’s accurate to justify high US prices by looking at Europe.

The US produces much more oil domestically than Europe and that keeps our costs lower. Everything from inflation, a weak dollar, instability, and corrupt business/politics keeps the oil companies reaping record profits, while no one in the media/political arena raises an eyebrow.

[cr]

I don’t believe it’s accurate to justify high US prices by looking at Europe.

The US produces much more oil domestically than Europe and that keeps our costs lower. Everything from inflation, a weak dollar, instability, and corrupt business/politics keeps the oil companies reaping record profits, while no one in the media/political arena raises an eyebrow.

[alarmclock]

I saw this gas station goof ($31.5 / gallon instead of $3.15/gallon) and I realized that while I wouldn’t like it, I could probably afford to pay it, and I think most posters here could too. I currently use about 800 gallons of gas/year (I have to do a lot of driving). In such an event, I would switch to something 2x as efficient, like a civic.

http://www.local6.com/travelgetaways/15447343/detail.html

[alarmclock]

I saw this gas station goof ($31.5 / gallon instead of $3.15/gallon) and I realized that while I wouldn’t like it, I could probably afford to pay it, and I think most posters here could too. I currently use about 800 gallons of gas/year (I have to do a lot of driving). In such an event, I would switch to something 2x as efficient, like a civic.

http://www.local6.com/travelgetaways/15447343/detail.html

[alarmclock]

I saw this gas station goof ($31.5 / gallon instead of $3.15/gallon) and I realized that while I wouldn’t like it, I could probably afford to pay it, and I think most posters here could too. I currently use about 800 gallons of gas/year (I have to do a lot of driving). In such an event, I would switch to something 2x as efficient, like a civic.

http://www.local6.com/travelgetaways/15447343/detail.html

[alarmclock]

I saw this gas station goof ($31.5 / gallon instead of $3.15/gallon) and I realized that while I wouldn’t like it, I could probably afford to pay it, and I think most posters here could too. I currently use about 800 gallons of gas/year (I have to do a lot of driving). In such an event, I would switch to something 2x as efficient, like a civic.

http://www.local6.com/travelgetaways/15447343/detail.html

[sdduuuude]

Interesting move by OPEC:

OPEC ARTICLE

“But OPEC ministers argued the oil market was pushed higher by a weak dollar, speculation and political strife, and not by a lack of crude.”

[Arraya]

We should expect to see OPEC blame anything but production capacity for the high prices. Even if they could raise production, which is doubtful, they probably would not.

Their best move is to conserve there oil. However, it should be interesting to see how it politically plays out when prices get out of control and the public gets really pissed. OPEC will most likely bluff until the end or until it’s so apparently obvious that they can’t raise production any significant amount.

Also, I would not expect any significant troop draw down in Iraq. We can’t leave that oil with just anybody. Supplies are so tight now any minor disruption can cause huge price spikes.

Interestingly, Shell’s CEO just published a letter that stated peak was going to be in 2015. While Exxon still maintains that it is 40 years away. Though as the data comes in it looks have been in 2006.

[patientlywaiting]

I always thought that the War on Iraq was partly a proxy war on Saudi Arabia (where the most of the 911 attackers came from).

By controlling the oil in Iraq, we would have mollifed the power of OPEC and controlled the price of oil.

Now, OPEC is paying us back with high oil prices and there’s nothing we can do. OPEC has other big customers in China and India.

It’s like Walmart pressuring their suppliers for lower and lower prices. Either lower your prices or you’ll be off our vendor list. You can bet that the suppliers would love to stick it to Walmart when they get a chance in the future.

From the point of view of OPEC, why would they want to increase production to reap the same revenues?

Of course, the oil companies are loving this.

[Arraya]

By controlling the oil in Iraq, we would have mollifed the power of OPEC and controlled the price of oil.

Unfortunately it looks like OPEC does not control the price of oil any more. You need to be able to raise production to control it. From a geo-political stand point it made sense to invade Iraq. Iraq has huge under explored reserves, they had no friends and all the remaining big reserves are around the Caspian basin. Ironically they are still below pre-war levels of production. That would be funny huh, If there was not as much oil over there that we thought. What a waste.

We are going to be in that part of the world for a long long time. The War on Terror is controlling the oil and controlling the population from the affects of depleting oil supplies.

Does anybody really think we want democracy in Iraq? They might decide not to give us any oil.

[Arraya]

By controlling the oil in Iraq, we would have mollifed the power of OPEC and controlled the price of oil.

Unfortunately it looks like OPEC does not control the price of oil any more. You need to be able to raise production to control it. From a geo-political stand point it made sense to invade Iraq. Iraq has huge under explored reserves, they had no friends and all the remaining big reserves are around the Caspian basin. Ironically they are still below pre-war levels of production. That would be funny huh, If there was not as much oil over there that we thought. What a waste.

We are going to be in that part of the world for a long long time. The War on Terror is controlling the oil and controlling the population from the affects of depleting oil supplies.

Does anybody really think we want democracy in Iraq? They might decide not to give us any oil.

[Arraya]

By controlling the oil in Iraq, we would have mollifed the power of OPEC and controlled the price of oil.

Unfortunately it looks like OPEC does not control the price of oil any more. You need to be able to raise production to control it. From a geo-political stand point it made sense to invade Iraq. Iraq has huge under explored reserves, they had no friends and all the remaining big reserves are around the Caspian basin. Ironically they are still below pre-war levels of production. That would be funny huh, If there was not as much oil over there that we thought. What a waste.

We are going to be in that part of the world for a long long time. The War on Terror is controlling the oil and controlling the population from the affects of depleting oil supplies.

Does anybody really think we want democracy in Iraq? They might decide not to give us any oil.

[Arraya]

By controlling the oil in Iraq, we would have mollifed the power of OPEC and controlled the price of oil.

Unfortunately it looks like OPEC does not control the price of oil any more. You need to be able to raise production to control it. From a geo-political stand point it made sense to invade Iraq. Iraq has huge under explored reserves, they had no friends and all the remaining big reserves are around the Caspian basin. Ironically they are still below pre-war levels of production. That would be funny huh, If there was not as much oil over there that we thought. What a waste.

We are going to be in that part of the world for a long long time. The War on Terror is controlling the oil and controlling the population from the affects of depleting oil supplies.

Does anybody really think we want democracy in Iraq? They might decide not to give us any oil.

[Arraya]

By controlling the oil in Iraq, we would have mollifed the power of OPEC and controlled the price of oil.

Unfortunately it looks like OPEC does not control the price of oil any more. You need to be able to raise production to control it. From a geo-political stand point it made sense to invade Iraq. Iraq has huge under explored reserves, they had no friends and all the remaining big reserves are around the Caspian basin. Ironically they are still below pre-war levels of production. That would be funny huh, If there was not as much oil over there that we thought. What a waste.

We are going to be in that part of the world for a long long time. The War on Terror is controlling the oil and controlling the population from the affects of depleting oil supplies.

Does anybody really think we want democracy in Iraq? They might decide not to give us any oil.

[patientlywaiting]

I always thought that the War on Iraq was partly a proxy war on Saudi Arabia (where the most of the 911 attackers came from).

By controlling the oil in Iraq, we would have mollifed the power of OPEC and controlled the price of oil.

Now, OPEC is paying us back with high oil prices and there’s nothing we can do. OPEC has other big customers in China and India.

It’s like Walmart pressuring their suppliers for lower and lower prices. Either lower your prices or you’ll be off our vendor list. You can bet that the suppliers would love to stick it to Walmart when they get a chance in the future.

From the point of view of OPEC, why would they want to increase production to reap the same revenues?

Of course, the oil companies are loving this.

[patientlywaiting]

I always thought that the War on Iraq was partly a proxy war on Saudi Arabia (where the most of the 911 attackers came from).

By controlling the oil in Iraq, we would have mollifed the power of OPEC and controlled the price of oil.

Now, OPEC is paying us back with high oil prices and there’s nothing we can do. OPEC has other big customers in China and India.

It’s like Walmart pressuring their suppliers for lower and lower prices. Either lower your prices or you’ll be off our vendor list. You can bet that the suppliers would love to stick it to Walmart when they get a chance in the future.

From the point of view of OPEC, why would they want to increase production to reap the same revenues?

Of course, the oil companies are loving this.

[patientlywaiting]

I always thought that the War on Iraq was partly a proxy war on Saudi Arabia (where the most of the 911 attackers came from).

By controlling the oil in Iraq, we would have mollifed the power of OPEC and controlled the price of oil.

Now, OPEC is paying us back with high oil prices and there’s nothing we can do. OPEC has other big customers in China and India.

It’s like Walmart pressuring their suppliers for lower and lower prices. Either lower your prices or you’ll be off our vendor list. You can bet that the suppliers would love to stick it to Walmart when they get a chance in the future.

From the point of view of OPEC, why would they want to increase production to reap the same revenues?

Of course, the oil companies are loving this.

[patientlywaiting]

I always thought that the War on Iraq was partly a proxy war on Saudi Arabia (where the most of the 911 attackers came from).

By controlling the oil in Iraq, we would have mollifed the power of OPEC and controlled the price of oil.

Now, OPEC is paying us back with high oil prices and there’s nothing we can do. OPEC has other big customers in China and India.

It’s like Walmart pressuring their suppliers for lower and lower prices. Either lower your prices or you’ll be off our vendor list. You can bet that the suppliers would love to stick it to Walmart when they get a chance in the future.

From the point of view of OPEC, why would they want to increase production to reap the same revenues?

Of course, the oil companies are loving this.

[Arraya]

We should expect to see OPEC blame anything but production capacity for the high prices. Even if they could raise production, which is doubtful, they probably would not.

Their best move is to conserve there oil. However, it should be interesting to see how it politically plays out when prices get out of control and the public gets really pissed. OPEC will most likely bluff until the end or until it’s so apparently obvious that they can’t raise production any significant amount.

Also, I would not expect any significant troop draw down in Iraq. We can’t leave that oil with just anybody. Supplies are so tight now any minor disruption can cause huge price spikes.

Interestingly, Shell’s CEO just published a letter that stated peak was going to be in 2015. While Exxon still maintains that it is 40 years away. Though as the data comes in it looks have been in 2006.

[Arraya]

We should expect to see OPEC blame anything but production capacity for the high prices. Even if they could raise production, which is doubtful, they probably would not.

Their best move is to conserve there oil. However, it should be interesting to see how it politically plays out when prices get out of control and the public gets really pissed. OPEC will most likely bluff until the end or until it’s so apparently obvious that they can’t raise production any significant amount.

Also, I would not expect any significant troop draw down in Iraq. We can’t leave that oil with just anybody. Supplies are so tight now any minor disruption can cause huge price spikes.

Interestingly, Shell’s CEO just published a letter that stated peak was going to be in 2015. While Exxon still maintains that it is 40 years away. Though as the data comes in it looks have been in 2006.

[Arraya]

We should expect to see OPEC blame anything but production capacity for the high prices. Even if they could raise production, which is doubtful, they probably would not.

Their best move is to conserve there oil. However, it should be interesting to see how it politically plays out when prices get out of control and the public gets really pissed. OPEC will most likely bluff until the end or until it’s so apparently obvious that they can’t raise production any significant amount.

Also, I would not expect any significant troop draw down in Iraq. We can’t leave that oil with just anybody. Supplies are so tight now any minor disruption can cause huge price spikes.

Interestingly, Shell’s CEO just published a letter that stated peak was going to be in 2015. While Exxon still maintains that it is 40 years away. Though as the data comes in it looks have been in 2006.

[Arraya]

We should expect to see OPEC blame anything but production capacity for the high prices. Even if they could raise production, which is doubtful, they probably would not.

Their best move is to conserve there oil. However, it should be interesting to see how it politically plays out when prices get out of control and the public gets really pissed. OPEC will most likely bluff until the end or until it’s so apparently obvious that they can’t raise production any significant amount.

Also, I would not expect any significant troop draw down in Iraq. We can’t leave that oil with just anybody. Supplies are so tight now any minor disruption can cause huge price spikes.

Interestingly, Shell’s CEO just published a letter that stated peak was going to be in 2015. While Exxon still maintains that it is 40 years away. Though as the data comes in it looks have been in 2006.

[sdduuuude]

Interesting move by OPEC:

OPEC ARTICLE

“But OPEC ministers argued the oil market was pushed higher by a weak dollar, speculation and political strife, and not by a lack of crude.”

[sdduuuude]

Interesting move by OPEC:

OPEC ARTICLE

“But OPEC ministers argued the oil market was pushed higher by a weak dollar, speculation and political strife, and not by a lack of crude.”

[sdduuuude]

Interesting move by OPEC:

OPEC ARTICLE

“But OPEC ministers argued the oil market was pushed higher by a weak dollar, speculation and political strife, and not by a lack of crude.”

[sdduuuude]

Interesting move by OPEC:

OPEC ARTICLE

“But OPEC ministers argued the oil market was pushed higher by a weak dollar, speculation and political strife, and not by a lack of crude.”

[Author]

Posts