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zk
Participant[quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=zk][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
I have no plan whatsoever. I just don’t like Gaddafi Duck. I say if we have a chance to eject his happy ass, we do so and forthwith.[/quote]
Substitute hussein for gadhafi, and I think that’s exactly what GWB said. And we all know how that turned out.[/quote]
Zk: Nope, not what I was saying at all. I’m not advocating invasion, hell, I’m not even advocating commitment of US air power. I’m following the old Bill Clinton “chuck a cruise missile at an aspirin factory” routine.
You have an active rebellion in place. All they need is a little help (i.e. keep Gaddafi’s planes from bombing the crap out of ’em).[/quote]
I’m not saying you’re advocating invasion. I’m saying it doesn’t seem as though you’ve thought it through.
Participant[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
I have no plan whatsoever. I just don’t like Gaddafi Duck. I say if we have a chance to eject his happy ass, we do so and forthwith.[/quote]
Substitute hussein for gadhafi, and I think that’s exactly what GWB said. And we all know how that turned out.
Participant[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
I have no plan whatsoever. I just don’t like Gaddafi Duck. I say if we have a chance to eject his happy ass, we do so and forthwith.[/quote]
Substitute hussein for gadhafi, and I think that’s exactly what GWB said. And we all know how that turned out.
Participant[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
I have no plan whatsoever. I just don’t like Gaddafi Duck. I say if we have a chance to eject his happy ass, we do so and forthwith.[/quote]
Substitute hussein for gadhafi, and I think that’s exactly what GWB said. And we all know how that turned out.
Participant[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
I have no plan whatsoever. I just don’t like Gaddafi Duck. I say if we have a chance to eject his happy ass, we do so and forthwith.[/quote]
Substitute hussein for gadhafi, and I think that’s exactly what GWB said. And we all know how that turned out.
Participant[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
I have no plan whatsoever. I just don’t like Gaddafi Duck. I say if we have a chance to eject his happy ass, we do so and forthwith.[/quote]
Substitute hussein for gadhafi, and I think that’s exactly what GWB said. And we all know how that turned out.
Participant[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Zk: I have no plan whatsoever. I just don’t like Gaddafi Duck. I say if we have a chance to eject his happy ass, we do so and forthwith.[/quote]
Well, obviously we need a long-term plan before we start bombing and shooting. I don’t like gadhafi either. But I don’t think that’s nearly enough reason to go to war.
Even if we could eject him rather easily, why would we? What are the odds that the next regime would be better? I’d say 50/50 at best. Getting rid of him might be easy, but getting who we want in there most likely wouldn’t be.
Participant[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Zk: I have no plan whatsoever. I just don’t like Gaddafi Duck. I say if we have a chance to eject his happy ass, we do so and forthwith.[/quote]
Well, obviously we need a long-term plan before we start bombing and shooting. I don’t like gadhafi either. But I don’t think that’s nearly enough reason to go to war.
Even if we could eject him rather easily, why would we? What are the odds that the next regime would be better? I’d say 50/50 at best. Getting rid of him might be easy, but getting who we want in there most likely wouldn’t be.
Participant[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Zk: I have no plan whatsoever. I just don’t like Gaddafi Duck. I say if we have a chance to eject his happy ass, we do so and forthwith.[/quote]
Well, obviously we need a long-term plan before we start bombing and shooting. I don’t like gadhafi either. But I don’t think that’s nearly enough reason to go to war.
Even if we could eject him rather easily, why would we? What are the odds that the next regime would be better? I’d say 50/50 at best. Getting rid of him might be easy, but getting who we want in there most likely wouldn’t be.
Participant[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Zk: I have no plan whatsoever. I just don’t like Gaddafi Duck. I say if we have a chance to eject his happy ass, we do so and forthwith.[/quote]
Well, obviously we need a long-term plan before we start bombing and shooting. I don’t like gadhafi either. But I don’t think that’s nearly enough reason to go to war.
Even if we could eject him rather easily, why would we? What are the odds that the next regime would be better? I’d say 50/50 at best. Getting rid of him might be easy, but getting who we want in there most likely wouldn’t be.
Participant[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Zk: I have no plan whatsoever. I just don’t like Gaddafi Duck. I say if we have a chance to eject his happy ass, we do so and forthwith.[/quote]
Well, obviously we need a long-term plan before we start bombing and shooting. I don’t like gadhafi either. But I don’t think that’s nearly enough reason to go to war.
Even if we could eject him rather easily, why would we? What are the odds that the next regime would be better? I’d say 50/50 at best. Getting rid of him might be easy, but getting who we want in there most likely wouldn’t be.
Participant[quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=zk]
I’d agree with all of that except for the part about the extreme vilification of Bush being for the same policies and programs as Obama’s. Bush was extremely vilified, but I think he deserved it. He got us into a war of choice apparently without significant reflection on the matter. Thousands of Americans are dead in vain and trillions of dollars are wasted. To me, that’s an extreme villain.Obama dithers and has made some bad calls. But he hasn’t done nearly the damage to this country that Bush did. Whole different league.
I’m curious about your opinions on Libya. What would you have us do there? What long-term strategy would you have?[/quote]
Zk: Except that Obama is continuing the very same policies as Bush: Gitmo remains open, extraordinary rendition continues (a policy instituted under Clinton), drone strikes continue, and the war in Afghanistan actually enlarged significantly under Obama. I don’t necessarily see how one can drop the hammer on Bush without doing the same to Obama.
As far as Libya goes: Obama could have easily removed Gaddafi’s air force from the conflict, and that air force (both fixed wing and helicopter) has been the difference thus far. He wouldn’t have needed to even involve US air power, but used SLBMs and cruise missiles deployed from US subs in the Med. All of Libya’s military airfields are pre-programmed into targeting computers and it would’ve taken about three days total to completely blind (missile strikes against radar and communications facilities) and then ground (missile and SLBM strikes against runways, revetments and fuel facilities) Gaddafi’s air power. This bullshit about involving the UN in a no-fly zone was a complete and total waste of time (we don’t have sufficient air power or resources to enforce a no-fly over Libya as it is, since USAF and USN resources are stretched thin supporting two wars), and Obama knew it. Under the guise of “multi-lateralism”, he essentially consigned the rebellion to destruction and aided and abetted a total fucking lunatic in the bargain.
Like I said, how do you think those Libyan rebels feel about that touchy-feely Cairo speech now?[/quote]
You don’t see how one can drop the hammer on Bush without doing the same to Obama? Really? It’s pretty simple. Bush got us into a war that wasn’t necessary, cost us massively, and got us nothing.
I don’t see your long-term strategy for Libya. How is the outcome better for us if the rebels win than if gadhafi stays? What’s in it for us and why would we fight for that?
Participant[quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=zk]
I’d agree with all of that except for the part about the extreme vilification of Bush being for the same policies and programs as Obama’s. Bush was extremely vilified, but I think he deserved it. He got us into a war of choice apparently without significant reflection on the matter. Thousands of Americans are dead in vain and trillions of dollars are wasted. To me, that’s an extreme villain.Obama dithers and has made some bad calls. But he hasn’t done nearly the damage to this country that Bush did. Whole different league.
I’m curious about your opinions on Libya. What would you have us do there? What long-term strategy would you have?[/quote]
Zk: Except that Obama is continuing the very same policies as Bush: Gitmo remains open, extraordinary rendition continues (a policy instituted under Clinton), drone strikes continue, and the war in Afghanistan actually enlarged significantly under Obama. I don’t necessarily see how one can drop the hammer on Bush without doing the same to Obama.
As far as Libya goes: Obama could have easily removed Gaddafi’s air force from the conflict, and that air force (both fixed wing and helicopter) has been the difference thus far. He wouldn’t have needed to even involve US air power, but used SLBMs and cruise missiles deployed from US subs in the Med. All of Libya’s military airfields are pre-programmed into targeting computers and it would’ve taken about three days total to completely blind (missile strikes against radar and communications facilities) and then ground (missile and SLBM strikes against runways, revetments and fuel facilities) Gaddafi’s air power. This bullshit about involving the UN in a no-fly zone was a complete and total waste of time (we don’t have sufficient air power or resources to enforce a no-fly over Libya as it is, since USAF and USN resources are stretched thin supporting two wars), and Obama knew it. Under the guise of “multi-lateralism”, he essentially consigned the rebellion to destruction and aided and abetted a total fucking lunatic in the bargain.
Like I said, how do you think those Libyan rebels feel about that touchy-feely Cairo speech now?[/quote]
You don’t see how one can drop the hammer on Bush without doing the same to Obama? Really? It’s pretty simple. Bush got us into a war that wasn’t necessary, cost us massively, and got us nothing.
I don’t see your long-term strategy for Libya. How is the outcome better for us if the rebels win than if gadhafi stays? What’s in it for us and why would we fight for that?
Participant[quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=zk]
I’d agree with all of that except for the part about the extreme vilification of Bush being for the same policies and programs as Obama’s. Bush was extremely vilified, but I think he deserved it. He got us into a war of choice apparently without significant reflection on the matter. Thousands of Americans are dead in vain and trillions of dollars are wasted. To me, that’s an extreme villain.Obama dithers and has made some bad calls. But he hasn’t done nearly the damage to this country that Bush did. Whole different league.
I’m curious about your opinions on Libya. What would you have us do there? What long-term strategy would you have?[/quote]
Zk: Except that Obama is continuing the very same policies as Bush: Gitmo remains open, extraordinary rendition continues (a policy instituted under Clinton), drone strikes continue, and the war in Afghanistan actually enlarged significantly under Obama. I don’t necessarily see how one can drop the hammer on Bush without doing the same to Obama.
As far as Libya goes: Obama could have easily removed Gaddafi’s air force from the conflict, and that air force (both fixed wing and helicopter) has been the difference thus far. He wouldn’t have needed to even involve US air power, but used SLBMs and cruise missiles deployed from US subs in the Med. All of Libya’s military airfields are pre-programmed into targeting computers and it would’ve taken about three days total to completely blind (missile strikes against radar and communications facilities) and then ground (missile and SLBM strikes against runways, revetments and fuel facilities) Gaddafi’s air power. This bullshit about involving the UN in a no-fly zone was a complete and total waste of time (we don’t have sufficient air power or resources to enforce a no-fly over Libya as it is, since USAF and USN resources are stretched thin supporting two wars), and Obama knew it. Under the guise of “multi-lateralism”, he essentially consigned the rebellion to destruction and aided and abetted a total fucking lunatic in the bargain.
Like I said, how do you think those Libyan rebels feel about that touchy-feely Cairo speech now?[/quote]
You don’t see how one can drop the hammer on Bush without doing the same to Obama? Really? It’s pretty simple. Bush got us into a war that wasn’t necessary, cost us massively, and got us nothing.
I don’t see your long-term strategy for Libya. How is the outcome better for us if the rebels win than if gadhafi stays? What’s in it for us and why would we fight for that?
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