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ucodegen
Participant[quote threadkiller]
I’m a little confused, I thought legislation was just written to ensure the consumer/producer could sell the electricity back to SDG&E.
[/quote]
Yes, such legislation was put in place w/in CA. There have been lawsuits, mostly up north when PG&E made it hard to connect the system to the grid. PG&E lost, so there is now legal precedence.[quote threadkiller]
I’m thinking about doing it, I suppose what is keeping me from doing it is I don’t fully understand how the electricity gets back to SDG&E. I assume it goes to the neighbors. Does anybody know if SDG&E meters at the stepdown transformer. I doubt that they do, so they are just trusting the meter I suppose.
[/quote]This is actually a pretty good question. I’ll see if I can answer it clearly.. so bear with me. The first problem is that the power lines are AC which is more complicated, so I will first describe what happens with DC — followed by AC’s difference.
DC:
Imagine two batteries. One is yours and one is the power companies. Which ever battery is producing the higher voltage will be handling the ‘load’. Current flows from higher voltages to lower voltages – please guys, I know the ‘quantum’ truth on electricity, so lets don’t complicate things. The other battery will not be doing anything (except maybe getting recharged). The truth is that the electrical ‘load’ is not taken completely by one or the other battery, so I am going to add a ‘complication’.This complication is known as electrical line resistance and distance. Even copper wire has resistance. So we now have a much longer system with two batteries, one at each end, and multiple loads in between. If only one battery was connected at the end, the voltage between the wires would drop as you travel away from that battery. Each ‘load’ or consumer would see slightly lower voltages as they move away from the battery. Now if we add a battery at the other end, there will be a balance in who is supplying the current for the load that is dependent upon the ratio of voltages, currents, loads and line resistances. If your battery ‘ups’ its output voltage, it will pick up more of the load. If it produces less voltage, it will shed the load until your system is producing voltage below what the other ‘battery’ would provide at that distance.
So on to AC or Alternating Current and its associated alternating voltage. The rough equivalent of increasing your battery’s voltage would be to increase the peak-to-peak voltage you are generating on the line while keeping your generated voltage phase in sync with the power station’s (The power station’s voltage goes up, yours goes up, the power station’s voltage goes to a negative peak, so does your system’s). You don’t want to get out of phase because that will cause current that will only heat up the wire. Because you are now producing a slightly higher voltage – peak to peak, you will source current onto the power line and pick up a percentage of the load.
The electric meters work on current. They sense direction of current vs voltage. If the voltage is positive and current is going into the house, it is metered as consumption. If the voltage is positive but current is going out of the house, it is metered as production. The negative voltage version is different: if the voltage is negative and the current is coming out of the house, it is consumption(vs production for the positive voltage) and if the voltage is negative and the current is going into the house, it is production. This ‘flip’ in behavior is due to how AC works. AC works by working against a ground wire which is near zero in voltage or against a capacitive ‘sink’. AC is kind of a ‘push-pull’ type of electrical system.
So far – I hope I am clearer than mud here…
Participant[quote threadkiller]
I’m a little confused, I thought legislation was just written to ensure the consumer/producer could sell the electricity back to SDG&E.
[/quote]
Yes, such legislation was put in place w/in CA. There have been lawsuits, mostly up north when PG&E made it hard to connect the system to the grid. PG&E lost, so there is now legal precedence.[quote threadkiller]
I’m thinking about doing it, I suppose what is keeping me from doing it is I don’t fully understand how the electricity gets back to SDG&E. I assume it goes to the neighbors. Does anybody know if SDG&E meters at the stepdown transformer. I doubt that they do, so they are just trusting the meter I suppose.
[/quote]This is actually a pretty good question. I’ll see if I can answer it clearly.. so bear with me. The first problem is that the power lines are AC which is more complicated, so I will first describe what happens with DC — followed by AC’s difference.
DC:
Imagine two batteries. One is yours and one is the power companies. Which ever battery is producing the higher voltage will be handling the ‘load’. Current flows from higher voltages to lower voltages – please guys, I know the ‘quantum’ truth on electricity, so lets don’t complicate things. The other battery will not be doing anything (except maybe getting recharged). The truth is that the electrical ‘load’ is not taken completely by one or the other battery, so I am going to add a ‘complication’.This complication is known as electrical line resistance and distance. Even copper wire has resistance. So we now have a much longer system with two batteries, one at each end, and multiple loads in between. If only one battery was connected at the end, the voltage between the wires would drop as you travel away from that battery. Each ‘load’ or consumer would see slightly lower voltages as they move away from the battery. Now if we add a battery at the other end, there will be a balance in who is supplying the current for the load that is dependent upon the ratio of voltages, currents, loads and line resistances. If your battery ‘ups’ its output voltage, it will pick up more of the load. If it produces less voltage, it will shed the load until your system is producing voltage below what the other ‘battery’ would provide at that distance.
So on to AC or Alternating Current and its associated alternating voltage. The rough equivalent of increasing your battery’s voltage would be to increase the peak-to-peak voltage you are generating on the line while keeping your generated voltage phase in sync with the power station’s (The power station’s voltage goes up, yours goes up, the power station’s voltage goes to a negative peak, so does your system’s). You don’t want to get out of phase because that will cause current that will only heat up the wire. Because you are now producing a slightly higher voltage – peak to peak, you will source current onto the power line and pick up a percentage of the load.
The electric meters work on current. They sense direction of current vs voltage. If the voltage is positive and current is going into the house, it is metered as consumption. If the voltage is positive but current is going out of the house, it is metered as production. The negative voltage version is different: if the voltage is negative and the current is coming out of the house, it is consumption(vs production for the positive voltage) and if the voltage is negative and the current is going into the house, it is production. This ‘flip’ in behavior is due to how AC works. AC works by working against a ground wire which is near zero in voltage or against a capacitive ‘sink’. AC is kind of a ‘push-pull’ type of electrical system.
So far – I hope I am clearer than mud here…
Participant[quote threadkiller]
Without selling it back I don’t think it pencils out for us as we are not really using much electricity during the day when the panels are producing the most.
[/quote]Generally, the law mentioned earlier, is relative to something known as ‘net-metering’. The fact that you produce during the day, allows you to consume during the night. This is the ‘net’ in ‘net-metering’. If I recollect correctly, the ‘net-metering’ period is one month. If the net between consumed and produced is zero… then you don’t have a bill (other than misc connect charges/fees etc).
NOTE: There may have been changes in the law for net producers being paid.. but I am currently unaware of these or what they might be.
Now why would a power company do this/allow this?
1) Normal power consumption peaks during the day – all of those companies w/ their employees – computers – etc.
2) Power companies have to deal with fluctuating demand on power. Atomic reactors, coal/natgas-steam and large hydroelectric dams do not respond to output requirement changes very quickly, and sometimes not very well.
3) Normally the way that power companies deal with these variations is through the construction of generators known as peaking stations. Lake Wohlford has functioned as one of these in the past.
4) Because you are producing power through solar at what would generally be near peak times, you are also functioning as a ‘peaking power station’.Participant[quote threadkiller]
Without selling it back I don’t think it pencils out for us as we are not really using much electricity during the day when the panels are producing the most.
[/quote]Generally, the law mentioned earlier, is relative to something known as ‘net-metering’. The fact that you produce during the day, allows you to consume during the night. This is the ‘net’ in ‘net-metering’. If I recollect correctly, the ‘net-metering’ period is one month. If the net between consumed and produced is zero… then you don’t have a bill (other than misc connect charges/fees etc).
NOTE: There may have been changes in the law for net producers being paid.. but I am currently unaware of these or what they might be.
Now why would a power company do this/allow this?
1) Normal power consumption peaks during the day – all of those companies w/ their employees – computers – etc.
2) Power companies have to deal with fluctuating demand on power. Atomic reactors, coal/natgas-steam and large hydroelectric dams do not respond to output requirement changes very quickly, and sometimes not very well.
3) Normally the way that power companies deal with these variations is through the construction of generators known as peaking stations. Lake Wohlford has functioned as one of these in the past.
4) Because you are producing power through solar at what would generally be near peak times, you are also functioning as a ‘peaking power station’.Participant[quote threadkiller]
Without selling it back I don’t think it pencils out for us as we are not really using much electricity during the day when the panels are producing the most.
[/quote]Generally, the law mentioned earlier, is relative to something known as ‘net-metering’. The fact that you produce during the day, allows you to consume during the night. This is the ‘net’ in ‘net-metering’. If I recollect correctly, the ‘net-metering’ period is one month. If the net between consumed and produced is zero… then you don’t have a bill (other than misc connect charges/fees etc).
NOTE: There may have been changes in the law for net producers being paid.. but I am currently unaware of these or what they might be.
Now why would a power company do this/allow this?
1) Normal power consumption peaks during the day – all of those companies w/ their employees – computers – etc.
2) Power companies have to deal with fluctuating demand on power. Atomic reactors, coal/natgas-steam and large hydroelectric dams do not respond to output requirement changes very quickly, and sometimes not very well.
3) Normally the way that power companies deal with these variations is through the construction of generators known as peaking stations. Lake Wohlford has functioned as one of these in the past.
4) Because you are producing power through solar at what would generally be near peak times, you are also functioning as a ‘peaking power station’.Participant[quote threadkiller]
Without selling it back I don’t think it pencils out for us as we are not really using much electricity during the day when the panels are producing the most.
[/quote]Generally, the law mentioned earlier, is relative to something known as ‘net-metering’. The fact that you produce during the day, allows you to consume during the night. This is the ‘net’ in ‘net-metering’. If I recollect correctly, the ‘net-metering’ period is one month. If the net between consumed and produced is zero… then you don’t have a bill (other than misc connect charges/fees etc).
NOTE: There may have been changes in the law for net producers being paid.. but I am currently unaware of these or what they might be.
Now why would a power company do this/allow this?
1) Normal power consumption peaks during the day – all of those companies w/ their employees – computers – etc.
2) Power companies have to deal with fluctuating demand on power. Atomic reactors, coal/natgas-steam and large hydroelectric dams do not respond to output requirement changes very quickly, and sometimes not very well.
3) Normally the way that power companies deal with these variations is through the construction of generators known as peaking stations. Lake Wohlford has functioned as one of these in the past.
4) Because you are producing power through solar at what would generally be near peak times, you are also functioning as a ‘peaking power station’.Participant[quote threadkiller]
Without selling it back I don’t think it pencils out for us as we are not really using much electricity during the day when the panels are producing the most.
[/quote]Generally, the law mentioned earlier, is relative to something known as ‘net-metering’. The fact that you produce during the day, allows you to consume during the night. This is the ‘net’ in ‘net-metering’. If I recollect correctly, the ‘net-metering’ period is one month. If the net between consumed and produced is zero… then you don’t have a bill (other than misc connect charges/fees etc).
NOTE: There may have been changes in the law for net producers being paid.. but I am currently unaware of these or what they might be.
Now why would a power company do this/allow this?
1) Normal power consumption peaks during the day – all of those companies w/ their employees – computers – etc.
2) Power companies have to deal with fluctuating demand on power. Atomic reactors, coal/natgas-steam and large hydroelectric dams do not respond to output requirement changes very quickly, and sometimes not very well.
3) Normally the way that power companies deal with these variations is through the construction of generators known as peaking stations. Lake Wohlford has functioned as one of these in the past.
4) Because you are producing power through solar at what would generally be near peak times, you are also functioning as a ‘peaking power station’.June 13, 2010 at 10:52 PM in reply to: Threadjackers Will Be Persecuted (Maybe Even Prosecuted) #564395Participant[quote briansd1]If we have new rules, please alert me because I’m happy to play by them too.
[/quote]
There are new rules.. and you have been semi-personally notified of them by the site’s creator. I know at least 3 posts where it has been done.briansd1, don’t take this personally, but there is a point at which you just have to ‘drop it’. Sometimes there is no point in trying to have the last word, particularly if you end up proving your ‘opponents’ position for them by trying to have the last word.. as in here and the following 2 posts. I knew you were going to respond, and respond quickly. You couldn’t resist.
With respect to political parties:
George Washington warned about the dangers of political parties. From wikipedia:While Washington accepts the fact that it is natural for people to organize and operate within groups like political parties, he also argues that every government has recognized political parties as an enemy and has sought to repress them because of their tendency to seek more power than other groups and take revenge on political opponents. He argues that these parties’ efforts to seize power and exact revenge upon their opponents have led to horrible atrocities and will ultimately end in despotism as people throw their support behind the most powerful faction and the faction focuses on increasing their own power instead of promoting the public liberty.
There is also discussions within the “Papers of Federation”, where there was concern of a two party system. The concern was of the parties seeking to maintain their power and authority at a cost to public liberty. The political parties would try to frame the discussions into ‘us’ vs ‘them’, instead of what really mattered.
June 13, 2010 at 10:52 PM in reply to: Threadjackers Will Be Persecuted (Maybe Even Prosecuted) #564491Participant[quote briansd1]If we have new rules, please alert me because I’m happy to play by them too.
[/quote]
There are new rules.. and you have been semi-personally notified of them by the site’s creator. I know at least 3 posts where it has been done.briansd1, don’t take this personally, but there is a point at which you just have to ‘drop it’. Sometimes there is no point in trying to have the last word, particularly if you end up proving your ‘opponents’ position for them by trying to have the last word.. as in here and the following 2 posts. I knew you were going to respond, and respond quickly. You couldn’t resist.
With respect to political parties:
George Washington warned about the dangers of political parties. From wikipedia:While Washington accepts the fact that it is natural for people to organize and operate within groups like political parties, he also argues that every government has recognized political parties as an enemy and has sought to repress them because of their tendency to seek more power than other groups and take revenge on political opponents. He argues that these parties’ efforts to seize power and exact revenge upon their opponents have led to horrible atrocities and will ultimately end in despotism as people throw their support behind the most powerful faction and the faction focuses on increasing their own power instead of promoting the public liberty.
There is also discussions within the “Papers of Federation”, where there was concern of a two party system. The concern was of the parties seeking to maintain their power and authority at a cost to public liberty. The political parties would try to frame the discussions into ‘us’ vs ‘them’, instead of what really mattered.
June 13, 2010 at 10:52 PM in reply to: Threadjackers Will Be Persecuted (Maybe Even Prosecuted) #564988Participant[quote briansd1]If we have new rules, please alert me because I’m happy to play by them too.
[/quote]
There are new rules.. and you have been semi-personally notified of them by the site’s creator. I know at least 3 posts where it has been done.briansd1, don’t take this personally, but there is a point at which you just have to ‘drop it’. Sometimes there is no point in trying to have the last word, particularly if you end up proving your ‘opponents’ position for them by trying to have the last word.. as in here and the following 2 posts. I knew you were going to respond, and respond quickly. You couldn’t resist.
With respect to political parties:
George Washington warned about the dangers of political parties. From wikipedia:While Washington accepts the fact that it is natural for people to organize and operate within groups like political parties, he also argues that every government has recognized political parties as an enemy and has sought to repress them because of their tendency to seek more power than other groups and take revenge on political opponents. He argues that these parties’ efforts to seize power and exact revenge upon their opponents have led to horrible atrocities and will ultimately end in despotism as people throw their support behind the most powerful faction and the faction focuses on increasing their own power instead of promoting the public liberty.
There is also discussions within the “Papers of Federation”, where there was concern of a two party system. The concern was of the parties seeking to maintain their power and authority at a cost to public liberty. The political parties would try to frame the discussions into ‘us’ vs ‘them’, instead of what really mattered.
June 13, 2010 at 10:52 PM in reply to: Threadjackers Will Be Persecuted (Maybe Even Prosecuted) #565095Participant[quote briansd1]If we have new rules, please alert me because I’m happy to play by them too.
[/quote]
There are new rules.. and you have been semi-personally notified of them by the site’s creator. I know at least 3 posts where it has been done.briansd1, don’t take this personally, but there is a point at which you just have to ‘drop it’. Sometimes there is no point in trying to have the last word, particularly if you end up proving your ‘opponents’ position for them by trying to have the last word.. as in here and the following 2 posts. I knew you were going to respond, and respond quickly. You couldn’t resist.
With respect to political parties:
George Washington warned about the dangers of political parties. From wikipedia:While Washington accepts the fact that it is natural for people to organize and operate within groups like political parties, he also argues that every government has recognized political parties as an enemy and has sought to repress them because of their tendency to seek more power than other groups and take revenge on political opponents. He argues that these parties’ efforts to seize power and exact revenge upon their opponents have led to horrible atrocities and will ultimately end in despotism as people throw their support behind the most powerful faction and the faction focuses on increasing their own power instead of promoting the public liberty.
There is also discussions within the “Papers of Federation”, where there was concern of a two party system. The concern was of the parties seeking to maintain their power and authority at a cost to public liberty. The political parties would try to frame the discussions into ‘us’ vs ‘them’, instead of what really mattered.
June 13, 2010 at 10:52 PM in reply to: Threadjackers Will Be Persecuted (Maybe Even Prosecuted) #565378Participant[quote briansd1]If we have new rules, please alert me because I’m happy to play by them too.
[/quote]
There are new rules.. and you have been semi-personally notified of them by the site’s creator. I know at least 3 posts where it has been done.briansd1, don’t take this personally, but there is a point at which you just have to ‘drop it’. Sometimes there is no point in trying to have the last word, particularly if you end up proving your ‘opponents’ position for them by trying to have the last word.. as in here and the following 2 posts. I knew you were going to respond, and respond quickly. You couldn’t resist.
With respect to political parties:
George Washington warned about the dangers of political parties. From wikipedia:While Washington accepts the fact that it is natural for people to organize and operate within groups like political parties, he also argues that every government has recognized political parties as an enemy and has sought to repress them because of their tendency to seek more power than other groups and take revenge on political opponents. He argues that these parties’ efforts to seize power and exact revenge upon their opponents have led to horrible atrocities and will ultimately end in despotism as people throw their support behind the most powerful faction and the faction focuses on increasing their own power instead of promoting the public liberty.
There is also discussions within the “Papers of Federation”, where there was concern of a two party system. The concern was of the parties seeking to maintain their power and authority at a cost to public liberty. The political parties would try to frame the discussions into ‘us’ vs ‘them’, instead of what really mattered.
Participant[quote bearishgurl]
I have refused to work with buyers that have run amok and/or will not sign a Buyer/Broker agency agreement with me. I would typically use my extensive RE knowledge and intimate knowledge of particular areas and tracts to assist them in getting the best deal and likewise, I insist on loyalty to me.
[/quote]Too often the Buyer/Broker agency agreement has been used to the detriment of the buyer. I think a better agreement would be one covering a specific address that was shown to the potential buyer as opposed to a general ‘blanket’ agreement.
A short one-pager covering a specific amount of time, protecting the Broker’s time and effort spent in showing the property would be quite reasonable.
Participant[quote bearishgurl]
I have refused to work with buyers that have run amok and/or will not sign a Buyer/Broker agency agreement with me. I would typically use my extensive RE knowledge and intimate knowledge of particular areas and tracts to assist them in getting the best deal and likewise, I insist on loyalty to me.
[/quote]Too often the Buyer/Broker agency agreement has been used to the detriment of the buyer. I think a better agreement would be one covering a specific address that was shown to the potential buyer as opposed to a general ‘blanket’ agreement.
A short one-pager covering a specific amount of time, protecting the Broker’s time and effort spent in showing the property would be quite reasonable.
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