[surveyor]

repeats

Rents are going up because there are empty houses (foreclosures), few investors converting those houses into rentals, the former home-owners now becoming renters, and now gas prices making far away properties more expensive.

I don’t forecast a doubling of rents either, but I do think it will go up further.

[surveyor]

repeats

Rents are going up because there are empty houses (foreclosures), few investors converting those houses into rentals, the former home-owners now becoming renters, and now gas prices making far away properties more expensive.

I don’t forecast a doubling of rents either, but I do think it will go up further.

[surveyor]

repeats

Rents are going up because there are empty houses (foreclosures), few investors converting those houses into rentals, the former home-owners now becoming renters, and now gas prices making far away properties more expensive.

I don’t forecast a doubling of rents either, but I do think it will go up further.

[surveyor]

repeats

Rents are going up because there are empty houses (foreclosures), few investors converting those houses into rentals, the former home-owners now becoming renters, and now gas prices making far away properties more expensive.

I don’t forecast a doubling of rents either, but I do think it will go up further.

[surveyor]

caveats

Well, I am probably going to take the weekend off for piggington’s. I’ll read it, but I won’t post much. Still, I noticed this little thing:

http://joshuapundit.blogspot.com/2008/07/must-see-heather-wilson-eviscerates.html

The money quote (Heather Wilson is talking about an Obama statement):

“WILSON: To say that somehow there is a wall in NATO that’s running somewhere down the Atlantic shows Senator Obama’s inexperience when it comes to understanding where we are. You see that on a number of other things. I mean, look at his platform. He has these kind of message-tested, poll-tested things like, we should, Barack Obama will make sure we take — he’ll negotiate with the Russians to take our ICBMs off hair-trigger alert. It’s a great idea: it was done 20 years ago. He seems to be unaware of American history. And that’s inexperience which causes people some real concern about whether he’s ready for the Oval Office.”

I post this with the caveat that I have not heard about Obama’s quote regarding the ICBMs. I’ll have to research that (see, even if someone does agree with me, I don’t take it at face value, I’ll go research it a little bit more.). I also like to see if the quote was taken out of context.

Still, I will say that is a particularly jarring criticism. And notice what she did. She gave an example of an Obama statement. She showed how wrong it was in the context of history and then, having proved her point, stated that Obama didn’t know history.

[surveyor]

caveats

Well, I am probably going to take the weekend off for piggington’s. I’ll read it, but I won’t post much. Still, I noticed this little thing:

http://joshuapundit.blogspot.com/2008/07/must-see-heather-wilson-eviscerates.html

The money quote (Heather Wilson is talking about an Obama statement):

“WILSON: To say that somehow there is a wall in NATO that’s running somewhere down the Atlantic shows Senator Obama’s inexperience when it comes to understanding where we are. You see that on a number of other things. I mean, look at his platform. He has these kind of message-tested, poll-tested things like, we should, Barack Obama will make sure we take — he’ll negotiate with the Russians to take our ICBMs off hair-trigger alert. It’s a great idea: it was done 20 years ago. He seems to be unaware of American history. And that’s inexperience which causes people some real concern about whether he’s ready for the Oval Office.”

I post this with the caveat that I have not heard about Obama’s quote regarding the ICBMs. I’ll have to research that (see, even if someone does agree with me, I don’t take it at face value, I’ll go research it a little bit more.). I also like to see if the quote was taken out of context.

Still, I will say that is a particularly jarring criticism. And notice what she did. She gave an example of an Obama statement. She showed how wrong it was in the context of history and then, having proved her point, stated that Obama didn’t know history.

[surveyor]

caveats

Well, I am probably going to take the weekend off for piggington’s. I’ll read it, but I won’t post much. Still, I noticed this little thing:

http://joshuapundit.blogspot.com/2008/07/must-see-heather-wilson-eviscerates.html

The money quote (Heather Wilson is talking about an Obama statement):

“WILSON: To say that somehow there is a wall in NATO that’s running somewhere down the Atlantic shows Senator Obama’s inexperience when it comes to understanding where we are. You see that on a number of other things. I mean, look at his platform. He has these kind of message-tested, poll-tested things like, we should, Barack Obama will make sure we take — he’ll negotiate with the Russians to take our ICBMs off hair-trigger alert. It’s a great idea: it was done 20 years ago. He seems to be unaware of American history. And that’s inexperience which causes people some real concern about whether he’s ready for the Oval Office.”

I post this with the caveat that I have not heard about Obama’s quote regarding the ICBMs. I’ll have to research that (see, even if someone does agree with me, I don’t take it at face value, I’ll go research it a little bit more.). I also like to see if the quote was taken out of context.

Still, I will say that is a particularly jarring criticism. And notice what she did. She gave an example of an Obama statement. She showed how wrong it was in the context of history and then, having proved her point, stated that Obama didn’t know history.

[surveyor]

caveats

Well, I am probably going to take the weekend off for piggington’s. I’ll read it, but I won’t post much. Still, I noticed this little thing:

http://joshuapundit.blogspot.com/2008/07/must-see-heather-wilson-eviscerates.html

The money quote (Heather Wilson is talking about an Obama statement):

“WILSON: To say that somehow there is a wall in NATO that’s running somewhere down the Atlantic shows Senator Obama’s inexperience when it comes to understanding where we are. You see that on a number of other things. I mean, look at his platform. He has these kind of message-tested, poll-tested things like, we should, Barack Obama will make sure we take — he’ll negotiate with the Russians to take our ICBMs off hair-trigger alert. It’s a great idea: it was done 20 years ago. He seems to be unaware of American history. And that’s inexperience which causes people some real concern about whether he’s ready for the Oval Office.”

I post this with the caveat that I have not heard about Obama’s quote regarding the ICBMs. I’ll have to research that (see, even if someone does agree with me, I don’t take it at face value, I’ll go research it a little bit more.). I also like to see if the quote was taken out of context.

Still, I will say that is a particularly jarring criticism. And notice what she did. She gave an example of an Obama statement. She showed how wrong it was in the context of history and then, having proved her point, stated that Obama didn’t know history.

[surveyor]

caveats

Well, I am probably going to take the weekend off for piggington’s. I’ll read it, but I won’t post much. Still, I noticed this little thing:

http://joshuapundit.blogspot.com/2008/07/must-see-heather-wilson-eviscerates.html

The money quote (Heather Wilson is talking about an Obama statement):

“WILSON: To say that somehow there is a wall in NATO that’s running somewhere down the Atlantic shows Senator Obama’s inexperience when it comes to understanding where we are. You see that on a number of other things. I mean, look at his platform. He has these kind of message-tested, poll-tested things like, we should, Barack Obama will make sure we take — he’ll negotiate with the Russians to take our ICBMs off hair-trigger alert. It’s a great idea: it was done 20 years ago. He seems to be unaware of American history. And that’s inexperience which causes people some real concern about whether he’s ready for the Oval Office.”

I post this with the caveat that I have not heard about Obama’s quote regarding the ICBMs. I’ll have to research that (see, even if someone does agree with me, I don’t take it at face value, I’ll go research it a little bit more.). I also like to see if the quote was taken out of context.

Still, I will say that is a particularly jarring criticism. And notice what she did. She gave an example of an Obama statement. She showed how wrong it was in the context of history and then, having proved her point, stated that Obama didn’t know history.

[surveyor]

hey, another 16 pager…

hi, dan!

[quote=urbanrealtor]Attributing actions to people whom you have not met based upon which church they attend fits the technical definition of bigotry. I do not assert that you are a necessarily a bigot(or that you are not) but lets be clear about what we are saying.[/quote]

Let’s also be clear that I never said that muslims themselves were violent. I just stated that the koran requires them to commit violence. Trying to imply the bigotry is a “straw man” attack, also a very weak argument.

And regarding India and Indonesia, just because they haven’t been taken over or are in danger of being taken over by their muslim poopulation does not negate the idea that the religion itself teaches that there is a perpetual state of war between the House of Believers and everyone else, or that the koran teaches muslims to kill unbelievers.

Also, bringing up the death toll of major conflicts and noting muslim participation in only a few still does not refute the idea that the koran teaches muslims to kill unbelievers.

Anyways, regarding gaffes: if you are suggesting I am using an “ad hominem” attack against Obama through the use of his gaffes, that would be an error. I have said that his gaffes show that he has a lack of understanding regarding history. And I used a few examples of his gaffes in order to establish the point. This is quite different from an ad hominem attack. If I said that he was dumb, or just a lawyer, then that could have been classified as an ad hominem attack. However, I laid out the case, I brought evidence of my point, and then put analysis of that point. That is not ad hominem. It’s analysis. Now, that analysis is not definitive. It is evidence, not proof. You want proof. Good enough for me, but not you. Fine.

[quote=urbanrealtor]The Europeans are in a different relationship with Iran. Their example does not apply. At what point after 29 years can we call our approach ineffective?[/quote]

The Europeans are negotiating on the behalf of us. So technically we have been negotiating and using diplomacy with the Iranians for the past four years. Certainly our “hands off” approach with Iran has not worked, but neither has diplomacy in the past four years.

On to Krushchev: I’ve stated before (although not to you) that I have no problem with diplomacy itself. However, the context of our debate was that Obama talking with no preconditions to rogue states. Will he be likely to use the military option as leverage? Or will be rely on more diplomacy? The implication was that Obama was certainly going to use diplomacy and more diplomacy as the answer. Unfortunately, I don’t think that would work and he would allow Iran to obtain a nuclear weapon. While the Cuban missile crisis was solved with diplomacy, it was backed up forcefully. I do not see Obama having that much leverage.

Now, Bolton. So despite the fact that you claimed that he was not respected, is reviled by many diplomats, you were not able to dispute the thrust of his article? And you still want me to find someone better? After I’ve proven my point, you want me to prove it with established experts some more? Um, why? So that I can be proven even more right? (Gandalf and I hashed this very same issue out, although I will say you are much better at it than gandalf, you and he still make the same irrelevant point).

And so with this thought, you bring up the “Spencer is not a widely credited expert.” Again, that does not prove that your assertion is correct or that Spencer is automatically wrong. Your assertion was that most historians agree that the christians and jews lived well under islamic rule. Here is an author that says this is not true. And all you have to say is that well he’s not credible. And don’t bring up any other non-credible person. This is in the debating world called “weak sauce.” It doesn’t refute the points brought up in the debate.

I don’t know, it sounds to me a lot like when the Church put Galileo on trial for saying the earth revolved around the sun. Galileo was a whacko then.

In any case, I have read a few of Spencer’s books (not all). I have not seen anything in there that says he “hates” islam or that he “intellectualizes religious bigotry.” What he does is prove that islam teaches violence and uses not his own words, but the words of the koran, hadiths, the statements of imams, the statements of the respected islam philosophers to prove it.

[quote=urbanrealtor]Regarding ancient Islam:
Your assertions to not square with most history courses. If you are going to say that you know more than the generally accepted experts then you are in Cheneyland.[/quote]

I TOTALLY agree that my assertions do not square with most history courses. Does that mean the history courses are correct? No. I also do not claim to know more than accepted experts, but neither do I accept the claim of the experts. As I stated to gandalf, if you are just going to rely on the analyses of the established “experts” then you have forgotten the tenets of piggington. It is the belief of this website that you question the “experts” and do not rely on the “experts.”

And accusing me of being in Cheneyland, THAT is also an irrelevant, inaccurate, and weak argument (generally called the straw man argument). Also name-calling. Which means in the debate, your argument has no merit.

It is clear you are a learned individual and have been able to debate me better than most of the people on this board. However, here’s a hint on raising the leveling of the discussion: do not imply that the establishment’s word is gospel.

[surveyor]

hey, another 16 pager…

hi, dan!

[quote=urbanrealtor]Attributing actions to people whom you have not met based upon which church they attend fits the technical definition of bigotry. I do not assert that you are a necessarily a bigot(or that you are not) but lets be clear about what we are saying.[/quote]

Let’s also be clear that I never said that muslims themselves were violent. I just stated that the koran requires them to commit violence. Trying to imply the bigotry is a “straw man” attack, also a very weak argument.

And regarding India and Indonesia, just because they haven’t been taken over or are in danger of being taken over by their muslim poopulation does not negate the idea that the religion itself teaches that there is a perpetual state of war between the House of Believers and everyone else, or that the koran teaches muslims to kill unbelievers.

Also, bringing up the death toll of major conflicts and noting muslim participation in only a few still does not refute the idea that the koran teaches muslims to kill unbelievers.

Anyways, regarding gaffes: if you are suggesting I am using an “ad hominem” attack against Obama through the use of his gaffes, that would be an error. I have said that his gaffes show that he has a lack of understanding regarding history. And I used a few examples of his gaffes in order to establish the point. This is quite different from an ad hominem attack. If I said that he was dumb, or just a lawyer, then that could have been classified as an ad hominem attack. However, I laid out the case, I brought evidence of my point, and then put analysis of that point. That is not ad hominem. It’s analysis. Now, that analysis is not definitive. It is evidence, not proof. You want proof. Good enough for me, but not you. Fine.

[quote=urbanrealtor]The Europeans are in a different relationship with Iran. Their example does not apply. At what point after 29 years can we call our approach ineffective?[/quote]

The Europeans are negotiating on the behalf of us. So technically we have been negotiating and using diplomacy with the Iranians for the past four years. Certainly our “hands off” approach with Iran has not worked, but neither has diplomacy in the past four years.

On to Krushchev: I’ve stated before (although not to you) that I have no problem with diplomacy itself. However, the context of our debate was that Obama talking with no preconditions to rogue states. Will he be likely to use the military option as leverage? Or will be rely on more diplomacy? The implication was that Obama was certainly going to use diplomacy and more diplomacy as the answer. Unfortunately, I don’t think that would work and he would allow Iran to obtain a nuclear weapon. While the Cuban missile crisis was solved with diplomacy, it was backed up forcefully. I do not see Obama having that much leverage.

Now, Bolton. So despite the fact that you claimed that he was not respected, is reviled by many diplomats, you were not able to dispute the thrust of his article? And you still want me to find someone better? After I’ve proven my point, you want me to prove it with established experts some more? Um, why? So that I can be proven even more right? (Gandalf and I hashed this very same issue out, although I will say you are much better at it than gandalf, you and he still make the same irrelevant point).

And so with this thought, you bring up the “Spencer is not a widely credited expert.” Again, that does not prove that your assertion is correct or that Spencer is automatically wrong. Your assertion was that most historians agree that the christians and jews lived well under islamic rule. Here is an author that says this is not true. And all you have to say is that well he’s not credible. And don’t bring up any other non-credible person. This is in the debating world called “weak sauce.” It doesn’t refute the points brought up in the debate.

I don’t know, it sounds to me a lot like when the Church put Galileo on trial for saying the earth revolved around the sun. Galileo was a whacko then.

In any case, I have read a few of Spencer’s books (not all). I have not seen anything in there that says he “hates” islam or that he “intellectualizes religious bigotry.” What he does is prove that islam teaches violence and uses not his own words, but the words of the koran, hadiths, the statements of imams, the statements of the respected islam philosophers to prove it.

[quote=urbanrealtor]Regarding ancient Islam:
Your assertions to not square with most history courses. If you are going to say that you know more than the generally accepted experts then you are in Cheneyland.[/quote]

I TOTALLY agree that my assertions do not square with most history courses. Does that mean the history courses are correct? No. I also do not claim to know more than accepted experts, but neither do I accept the claim of the experts. As I stated to gandalf, if you are just going to rely on the analyses of the established “experts” then you have forgotten the tenets of piggington. It is the belief of this website that you question the “experts” and do not rely on the “experts.”

And accusing me of being in Cheneyland, THAT is also an irrelevant, inaccurate, and weak argument (generally called the straw man argument). Also name-calling. Which means in the debate, your argument has no merit.

It is clear you are a learned individual and have been able to debate me better than most of the people on this board. However, here’s a hint on raising the leveling of the discussion: do not imply that the establishment’s word is gospel.

[surveyor]

hey, another 16 pager…

hi, dan!

[quote=urbanrealtor]Attributing actions to people whom you have not met based upon which church they attend fits the technical definition of bigotry. I do not assert that you are a necessarily a bigot(or that you are not) but lets be clear about what we are saying.[/quote]

Let’s also be clear that I never said that muslims themselves were violent. I just stated that the koran requires them to commit violence. Trying to imply the bigotry is a “straw man” attack, also a very weak argument.

And regarding India and Indonesia, just because they haven’t been taken over or are in danger of being taken over by their muslim poopulation does not negate the idea that the religion itself teaches that there is a perpetual state of war between the House of Believers and everyone else, or that the koran teaches muslims to kill unbelievers.

Also, bringing up the death toll of major conflicts and noting muslim participation in only a few still does not refute the idea that the koran teaches muslims to kill unbelievers.

Anyways, regarding gaffes: if you are suggesting I am using an “ad hominem” attack against Obama through the use of his gaffes, that would be an error. I have said that his gaffes show that he has a lack of understanding regarding history. And I used a few examples of his gaffes in order to establish the point. This is quite different from an ad hominem attack. If I said that he was dumb, or just a lawyer, then that could have been classified as an ad hominem attack. However, I laid out the case, I brought evidence of my point, and then put analysis of that point. That is not ad hominem. It’s analysis. Now, that analysis is not definitive. It is evidence, not proof. You want proof. Good enough for me, but not you. Fine.

[quote=urbanrealtor]The Europeans are in a different relationship with Iran. Their example does not apply. At what point after 29 years can we call our approach ineffective?[/quote]

The Europeans are negotiating on the behalf of us. So technically we have been negotiating and using diplomacy with the Iranians for the past four years. Certainly our “hands off” approach with Iran has not worked, but neither has diplomacy in the past four years.

On to Krushchev: I’ve stated before (although not to you) that I have no problem with diplomacy itself. However, the context of our debate was that Obama talking with no preconditions to rogue states. Will he be likely to use the military option as leverage? Or will be rely on more diplomacy? The implication was that Obama was certainly going to use diplomacy and more diplomacy as the answer. Unfortunately, I don’t think that would work and he would allow Iran to obtain a nuclear weapon. While the Cuban missile crisis was solved with diplomacy, it was backed up forcefully. I do not see Obama having that much leverage.

Now, Bolton. So despite the fact that you claimed that he was not respected, is reviled by many diplomats, you were not able to dispute the thrust of his article? And you still want me to find someone better? After I’ve proven my point, you want me to prove it with established experts some more? Um, why? So that I can be proven even more right? (Gandalf and I hashed this very same issue out, although I will say you are much better at it than gandalf, you and he still make the same irrelevant point).

And so with this thought, you bring up the “Spencer is not a widely credited expert.” Again, that does not prove that your assertion is correct or that Spencer is automatically wrong. Your assertion was that most historians agree that the christians and jews lived well under islamic rule. Here is an author that says this is not true. And all you have to say is that well he’s not credible. And don’t bring up any other non-credible person. This is in the debating world called “weak sauce.” It doesn’t refute the points brought up in the debate.

I don’t know, it sounds to me a lot like when the Church put Galileo on trial for saying the earth revolved around the sun. Galileo was a whacko then.

In any case, I have read a few of Spencer’s books (not all). I have not seen anything in there that says he “hates” islam or that he “intellectualizes religious bigotry.” What he does is prove that islam teaches violence and uses not his own words, but the words of the koran, hadiths, the statements of imams, the statements of the respected islam philosophers to prove it.

[quote=urbanrealtor]Regarding ancient Islam:
Your assertions to not square with most history courses. If you are going to say that you know more than the generally accepted experts then you are in Cheneyland.[/quote]

I TOTALLY agree that my assertions do not square with most history courses. Does that mean the history courses are correct? No. I also do not claim to know more than accepted experts, but neither do I accept the claim of the experts. As I stated to gandalf, if you are just going to rely on the analyses of the established “experts” then you have forgotten the tenets of piggington. It is the belief of this website that you question the “experts” and do not rely on the “experts.”

And accusing me of being in Cheneyland, THAT is also an irrelevant, inaccurate, and weak argument (generally called the straw man argument). Also name-calling. Which means in the debate, your argument has no merit.

It is clear you are a learned individual and have been able to debate me better than most of the people on this board. However, here’s a hint on raising the leveling of the discussion: do not imply that the establishment’s word is gospel.

[surveyor]

hey, another 16 pager…

hi, dan!

[quote=urbanrealtor]Attributing actions to people whom you have not met based upon which church they attend fits the technical definition of bigotry. I do not assert that you are a necessarily a bigot(or that you are not) but lets be clear about what we are saying.[/quote]

Let’s also be clear that I never said that muslims themselves were violent. I just stated that the koran requires them to commit violence. Trying to imply the bigotry is a “straw man” attack, also a very weak argument.

And regarding India and Indonesia, just because they haven’t been taken over or are in danger of being taken over by their muslim poopulation does not negate the idea that the religion itself teaches that there is a perpetual state of war between the House of Believers and everyone else, or that the koran teaches muslims to kill unbelievers.

Also, bringing up the death toll of major conflicts and noting muslim participation in only a few still does not refute the idea that the koran teaches muslims to kill unbelievers.

Anyways, regarding gaffes: if you are suggesting I am using an “ad hominem” attack against Obama through the use of his gaffes, that would be an error. I have said that his gaffes show that he has a lack of understanding regarding history. And I used a few examples of his gaffes in order to establish the point. This is quite different from an ad hominem attack. If I said that he was dumb, or just a lawyer, then that could have been classified as an ad hominem attack. However, I laid out the case, I brought evidence of my point, and then put analysis of that point. That is not ad hominem. It’s analysis. Now, that analysis is not definitive. It is evidence, not proof. You want proof. Good enough for me, but not you. Fine.

[quote=urbanrealtor]The Europeans are in a different relationship with Iran. Their example does not apply. At what point after 29 years can we call our approach ineffective?[/quote]

The Europeans are negotiating on the behalf of us. So technically we have been negotiating and using diplomacy with the Iranians for the past four years. Certainly our “hands off” approach with Iran has not worked, but neither has diplomacy in the past four years.

On to Krushchev: I’ve stated before (although not to you) that I have no problem with diplomacy itself. However, the context of our debate was that Obama talking with no preconditions to rogue states. Will he be likely to use the military option as leverage? Or will be rely on more diplomacy? The implication was that Obama was certainly going to use diplomacy and more diplomacy as the answer. Unfortunately, I don’t think that would work and he would allow Iran to obtain a nuclear weapon. While the Cuban missile crisis was solved with diplomacy, it was backed up forcefully. I do not see Obama having that much leverage.

Now, Bolton. So despite the fact that you claimed that he was not respected, is reviled by many diplomats, you were not able to dispute the thrust of his article? And you still want me to find someone better? After I’ve proven my point, you want me to prove it with established experts some more? Um, why? So that I can be proven even more right? (Gandalf and I hashed this very same issue out, although I will say you are much better at it than gandalf, you and he still make the same irrelevant point).

And so with this thought, you bring up the “Spencer is not a widely credited expert.” Again, that does not prove that your assertion is correct or that Spencer is automatically wrong. Your assertion was that most historians agree that the christians and jews lived well under islamic rule. Here is an author that says this is not true. And all you have to say is that well he’s not credible. And don’t bring up any other non-credible person. This is in the debating world called “weak sauce.” It doesn’t refute the points brought up in the debate.

I don’t know, it sounds to me a lot like when the Church put Galileo on trial for saying the earth revolved around the sun. Galileo was a whacko then.

In any case, I have read a few of Spencer’s books (not all). I have not seen anything in there that says he “hates” islam or that he “intellectualizes religious bigotry.” What he does is prove that islam teaches violence and uses not his own words, but the words of the koran, hadiths, the statements of imams, the statements of the respected islam philosophers to prove it.

[quote=urbanrealtor]Regarding ancient Islam:
Your assertions to not square with most history courses. If you are going to say that you know more than the generally accepted experts then you are in Cheneyland.[/quote]

I TOTALLY agree that my assertions do not square with most history courses. Does that mean the history courses are correct? No. I also do not claim to know more than accepted experts, but neither do I accept the claim of the experts. As I stated to gandalf, if you are just going to rely on the analyses of the established “experts” then you have forgotten the tenets of piggington. It is the belief of this website that you question the “experts” and do not rely on the “experts.”

And accusing me of being in Cheneyland, THAT is also an irrelevant, inaccurate, and weak argument (generally called the straw man argument). Also name-calling. Which means in the debate, your argument has no merit.

It is clear you are a learned individual and have been able to debate me better than most of the people on this board. However, here’s a hint on raising the leveling of the discussion: do not imply that the establishment’s word is gospel.

[surveyor]

hey, another 16 pager…

hi, dan!

[quote=urbanrealtor]Attributing actions to people whom you have not met based upon which church they attend fits the technical definition of bigotry. I do not assert that you are a necessarily a bigot(or that you are not) but lets be clear about what we are saying.[/quote]

Let’s also be clear that I never said that muslims themselves were violent. I just stated that the koran requires them to commit violence. Trying to imply the bigotry is a “straw man” attack, also a very weak argument.

And regarding India and Indonesia, just because they haven’t been taken over or are in danger of being taken over by their muslim poopulation does not negate the idea that the religion itself teaches that there is a perpetual state of war between the House of Believers and everyone else, or that the koran teaches muslims to kill unbelievers.

Also, bringing up the death toll of major conflicts and noting muslim participation in only a few still does not refute the idea that the koran teaches muslims to kill unbelievers.

Anyways, regarding gaffes: if you are suggesting I am using an “ad hominem” attack against Obama through the use of his gaffes, that would be an error. I have said that his gaffes show that he has a lack of understanding regarding history. And I used a few examples of his gaffes in order to establish the point. This is quite different from an ad hominem attack. If I said that he was dumb, or just a lawyer, then that could have been classified as an ad hominem attack. However, I laid out the case, I brought evidence of my point, and then put analysis of that point. That is not ad hominem. It’s analysis. Now, that analysis is not definitive. It is evidence, not proof. You want proof. Good enough for me, but not you. Fine.

[quote=urbanrealtor]The Europeans are in a different relationship with Iran. Their example does not apply. At what point after 29 years can we call our approach ineffective?[/quote]

The Europeans are negotiating on the behalf of us. So technically we have been negotiating and using diplomacy with the Iranians for the past four years. Certainly our “hands off” approach with Iran has not worked, but neither has diplomacy in the past four years.

On to Krushchev: I’ve stated before (although not to you) that I have no problem with diplomacy itself. However, the context of our debate was that Obama talking with no preconditions to rogue states. Will he be likely to use the military option as leverage? Or will be rely on more diplomacy? The implication was that Obama was certainly going to use diplomacy and more diplomacy as the answer. Unfortunately, I don’t think that would work and he would allow Iran to obtain a nuclear weapon. While the Cuban missile crisis was solved with diplomacy, it was backed up forcefully. I do not see Obama having that much leverage.

Now, Bolton. So despite the fact that you claimed that he was not respected, is reviled by many diplomats, you were not able to dispute the thrust of his article? And you still want me to find someone better? After I’ve proven my point, you want me to prove it with established experts some more? Um, why? So that I can be proven even more right? (Gandalf and I hashed this very same issue out, although I will say you are much better at it than gandalf, you and he still make the same irrelevant point).

And so with this thought, you bring up the “Spencer is not a widely credited expert.” Again, that does not prove that your assertion is correct or that Spencer is automatically wrong. Your assertion was that most historians agree that the christians and jews lived well under islamic rule. Here is an author that says this is not true. And all you have to say is that well he’s not credible. And don’t bring up any other non-credible person. This is in the debating world called “weak sauce.” It doesn’t refute the points brought up in the debate.

I don’t know, it sounds to me a lot like when the Church put Galileo on trial for saying the earth revolved around the sun. Galileo was a whacko then.

In any case, I have read a few of Spencer’s books (not all). I have not seen anything in there that says he “hates” islam or that he “intellectualizes religious bigotry.” What he does is prove that islam teaches violence and uses not his own words, but the words of the koran, hadiths, the statements of imams, the statements of the respected islam philosophers to prove it.

[quote=urbanrealtor]Regarding ancient Islam:
Your assertions to not square with most history courses. If you are going to say that you know more than the generally accepted experts then you are in Cheneyland.[/quote]

I TOTALLY agree that my assertions do not square with most history courses. Does that mean the history courses are correct? No. I also do not claim to know more than accepted experts, but neither do I accept the claim of the experts. As I stated to gandalf, if you are just going to rely on the analyses of the established “experts” then you have forgotten the tenets of piggington. It is the belief of this website that you question the “experts” and do not rely on the “experts.”

And accusing me of being in Cheneyland, THAT is also an irrelevant, inaccurate, and weak argument (generally called the straw man argument). Also name-calling. Which means in the debate, your argument has no merit.

It is clear you are a learned individual and have been able to debate me better than most of the people on this board. However, here’s a hint on raising the leveling of the discussion: do not imply that the establishment’s word is gospel.

[surveyor]

[quote=urbanrealtor]My problem is that I don’t have a great fear of Islamic hegemony. Were it an widely emerging popular ideology (which it is not) it would not of major concern. The last time there were large Islamic empires they existed as one of the pinnacles of Mediterranean development. They had great works, religious tolerance (for montheists) and tremendous economic and intellectual developments. The only Islamic regimes to be concerned about are the ones that would be of concern regardless of religion. Those are nations with great control of vital resources and no popular sovereignty or even consultative oligarchy. The religious aspect is a way of controlling dissent. With no social groups permitted they frame any social group, movement, or assembly as religious.[/quote]

Um, I figured you thought like this. =sigh= I think you should start reading the koran. The current problems we have with islamofacism is due to the calls to islamic supremacy that is within the koran, and hadiths. This islamic supremacy actually does fit the definition of ideology. All muslims are required, per the koran, to wage war against the unbelievers. Luckily, not all muslims are interested in waging war, but they are required to do so.

(and PLEASE don’t try to use the argument that the bible/christianity is just as violent as the koran/islam. You would be devastatingly wrong.)

a) Gaffes – While the gaffes are not important to you, they are important to other people (including me). If I agreed with his policies, but he made gaffes, I would probably disregard the gaffes. However, combine the gaffes with his lack of knowledge in history, his lack of experience, and it just becomes a little disturbing. Yes, gaffes by themselves are immaterial, but Obama is supposed to be a great orator. If he doesn’t have that, he has little else left to offer other than the fact that he is not Bush. It’s not personal, but it is a lack of substance argument.

b) Kennedy – well let’s look at the event. Kennedy met with Krushchev similar to how Obama wants to meet with “rogue states”. It is generally acknowledged by most that Kennedy looked really bad and essentially got schooled by Krushschev. Even Kennedy said so. Do you want your adversary to find out you are weak? That’s what happened with “no preconditions.” Maybe Krushchev would have done the same thing, whether or not he thought Kennedy was weak, but he would have paused if he thought Kennedy was stronger.

Still, the larger point is that Obama looked at that meeting as a success for the U.S., when it was actually the opposite. Here is evidence that he has a limited understanding of history. You can argue about Kennedy all you want, but this is the point that Bolton makes, and he is correct in it. David Duke can tell you 1+1=2. It doesn’t matter that he’s a racist. Irrelevant. Hitler can tell you 1+1=2. He’s still right. You cannot just disregard someone’s analyses just because you think he is a wacko. See, that’s called “close-minded.” Also, it’s an ad hominem attack. Ad hominem attacks do nothing to refute the argument. It is a logical fallacy to think that just because John Bolton is not respected, that he is wrong. I cannot stress this enough. An ad hominem attack is a weak argument.

c)[quote=urbanrealtor] Regarding the cost of negotiation:
First, time is only expensive as an opportunity cost. If we would be using the time for negotiations. If meeting meant some top aids spending a week locked in some hunting lodge talking, I am not clear as to what opportunities that would cost us. We still keep vigilant and keep up pressure. Unless that week is one we would have spent bombing Tehran (which we have shown no signs of doing in 29 years), its not like it really hurts us to get to constructive conversation.[/quote]

You’re not sure what opportunities are lost to us? Well, when you don’t have time, you can’t go to the UN to help with Iran. You can’t. It’ll take months for a “non-binding” resolution. You can’t enact sanctions. They take time to work. You can’t all of a sudden pursue regime change. That takes time. Meanwhile, Israel is screaming that they’re going to be attacked by Iran and begging you to do something. Meanwhile, the Iranians are only a year away from a nuclear weapon. Guess what? When you have been painted into a corner, that is a FAILURE of diplomacy.

Hey, the Europeans have only been negotiating with them for more than FOUR YEARS. Let’s go ahead and order more. Not only does Obama want to have more negotiations, he wants negotiations without “preconditions.” I’ve already established that this is not a smart idea already, and yet this is exactly what Obama wants. If you think they’ll roll over for Obama after a week, I’ve got a bridge to sell you. Yes, time is an opportunity cost. The opportunities to deal with Iran without having to go to the military option are now gone because of an adherence to the “diplomacy/negotiation” only policy. When you’ve lost leverage, you’ve lost options. Does that sound “smart” to you?

d)[quote=urbanrealtor]Second, Neville Chamberlain just doesn’t apply here. I mean seriously, he gave away a whole country to Hitler. He even signed it. Thats a lot different from discussing how to build more mutually beneficial relationship.[/quote]

The story of Neville Chamberlain is used as an example of failed diplomacy (although it was heralded as a success at the time). After four years of European negotiations, the Iranians on the verge of nuclear weapons, the promise of a new middle east conflict on the horizon, and few options available to the U.S., I’d say the analogy is apt. Disagree if you wish. I’m just wondering after four years of negotiations, when can you call it an abject failure?

Neville Chamberlain => example of failed diplomacy.
European-Iran negotiations = example of failed diplomacy.

I don’t know, it looks analogous to me.

[quote=urbanrealtor]Their conflict with us is based on the terrible things we did to that country (like taking out their prime minister in 1953). The animosity we have with their regime is primarily based on their rhetoric and the revolution (which had popular support). Unless we want to re-install a dictator there (or exterminate them), we have to try working things out at some point.[/quote]

Hrm, there’s that “blame America first” thought process. You really want to go negotiate with the Iranians with that mindset? So we should let them have nuclear weapons?

[quote=urbanrealtor]Regarding Italy:
Who really cares who they pray to?
I come from a country (my blood not my country of birth) that makes a point of not caring. That not just because anabaptists settled Manhattan Island or because our first president was a deist but also because there were lots of Jews in early America. My point is that these are essentially political fights. Thats why Tehran has the Mid-east’s larges Jewish community outside of Israel.[/quote]

=shrug= Here’s why it matters: Europe is becoming rapidly Islamic. The next few decades, they will become islamic by demographics. You obviously have a benign view of Islam. I’m afraid you’re in for a rude awakening.

(next book to read: America Alone, by Mark Steyn).

[quote=urbanrealtor]Actually I agree. We should be able to call him on it. However, my point is that these are cheap shots. You would make a better case by just saying that his policies are weak and then explain why. If you are looking to just do cheap shots, then I submit to you that this may be too intelligent a blog for you (and thats kind of sad). I don’t say this to be insulting. I say this because I would like to actually discuss policy with you. You have something good to say but you keep hiding it behind weak lines and cheap shots. Please step up dude. I’ll wait for you. I really would like to hear your real points. [/quote]

I hate to break it to you dan, but what you call cheap shots I call “weaknesses.”

[quote=urbanrealtor]Regarding religious tolerance:
It is widely accepted by historians that Christians and Jews lived well among the Muslims prior to the reconquista and various crusades. Also, citing examples of ethno-religious cleansing does not go far in making your point.[/quote]

And this is specifically what happens when you cite “trusted and respected” sources. You, sir, could not be more wrong. The idea that Christians and Jews lived well among the muslims is extremely false. I haven’t read Andrew Bostom’s “The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism” but the details of how intolerant the muslims were towards “people of the book” (jews and christians) are there. Also a good read is the “Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades” by Robert Spencer.

(by the way, the Crusades were launched after CENTURIES of abuse, jihad, and conquering of christian territory by the muslims).

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