[ocrenter]

Glad you were able to find some help, Rich.

There’s no question the medical profession over-image and over-medicate and perform too many unnecessary surgeries on neck and back pain.

True story: construction worker was prevented from starting his new job because a screening x-Ray of his back showed severe arthritis. His doctor asks him about his back pain. The construction worker goes, what back pain???

[ocrenter]

[quote=bibsoconner]Thanks for the comments ocrenter and others. For those following this thread, I’ve done some research which I think anyone with a passing interest in solar, pools, or TOU, will find very interesting.

First, if I’m reading the following articles correctly, “Time of Use”, (TOU) can not be forced on the consumers until Jan. 1, 2018 at the earliest. At that time, the PUC is supposed to have a plan in place for mandatory TOU. Of course, that is right around the corner (2 1/2 years). References:

http://www.dra.ca.gov/general.aspx?id=2444
http://nextcity.org/daily/entry/california-allows-power-companies-time-of-use-solar-power

Please tell me if I’m reading them incorrectly.

Then, trying to get even more info, I wrote to the head CPUC (Calif Public Utilities Commission) Commissioner, Michael Picker, to see if he could give some guidance as to what will happen with TOU. To his credit (and my surprise!) he wrote back. I’ve copied the exchange below. I’m not inclined to wait until June 21st to make a decision on whether or not to get solar for pool. As Mr. Picker alludes to, the vote might be delayed. I think I’ll just hope that they are wise enough to take into account that there are a lot of folks with pool solar heating.

Comments, advice, flames welcome as always.

-Dave

Me:
Dear Michael Picker,

I am hoping you can answer a simple question that I could not get resolved by contacting SDG&E nor the PUC help line (800-649-7570).

I am considering putting in solar heating for my pool. As you know, the water in a pool must be circulated and it requires very little extra electrical power to pump the water to the roof where it can be heated by the sun for free. Currently this is a much cheaper option than heating with natural gas, once the initial investment (~$6000.00) is made. However, if “Time of Use” (TOU) was to become mandatory, this would no longer be the case. Currently, I am able to change my hours for pumping the pool water to anytime during the day or night, but with solar heating, the pumping must be done during the hottest parts of the day (typically 11am-5pm).

Do you know if TOU will become mandatory and if so, when? Do you know if there will be any provision for pool owners who are trying to save energy (and money) by using solar heating?

I have contacted SDG&E. They referred me to the PUC help line. Their answer was that “no one knows the minds of the commissioners and there is no way to find out”. I refuse to believe that is the case in a democracy. The commissioners answer to the governor, who answers to the citizens.

I appreciate your help in this matter.

Sincerely,

Michael Picker:

We are in the midst of a proceeding regarding rate reform, and will decide if and when TOU pricing will be mandatory as part of that. Currently, that matter is scheduled for a vote on June 21. But things change and get delayed…

Commissioner Michael Picker
California Public Utilities Commission
505 Van Ness, Fifth Floor
San Francisco, CA 94102
(415) 703-2444
[email protected]

And, the state constitution says that we are independent decision makers, appointed by the Governor, and confirmed by the Legislature. We are a quasi-judicial agency, and, for many decisions, have a painful and complex process of hearings, and make our decisions based on the published record, as a panel of judges would. So, in most respects, SDG&E is correct.

Commissioner Michael Picker
California Public Utilities Commission
505 Van Ness, Fifth Floor
San Francisco, CA 94102
(415) 703-2444
[email protected][/quote]

Interesting stuff. Mandatory TOU will totally push more homeowners to solar. Sounds like it is the CPUC pushing for it instead of SDGE. I guess that makes a lot more sense.

[ocrenter]

[quote=bibsoconner]Thanks for the reply ocrenter, I appreciate it.

I can see how the calculations are different for you, as you also have solar panels feeding electricity back into the grid. I had not really considered solar for the house as our current electric bill is only about $100/month. So we would just have solar for the pool. Like I said, I filter (with a multi speed, newer pump) for 6-8 hrs a day. But right now, I could easily change the time of that pumping to midnight to 6 am if TOU came to be. But you can’t do that if you need to pump water to the roof of your house during the hottest part of the day.
I mentioned this to one contractor and he (politely) scoffed at my concern. He said that either (i) this TOU will not happen or (ii), the utility (SDG&E) would be forced to give customers that are heating their pools the reduced rated during the hottest part of the day. I’m currently checking claim (ii) out. Off-hand, I wouldn’t think SDG&E would have to do anything they don’t want to – unless there are gov’t regulations saying otherwise.

Enjoy your pool!
Dave[/quote]

I doubt SDGE will be switching over to TOU for the general public anytime soon. Therefore would not look at looming TOU as a major factor here.

Solar is continuing to grow by leaps and bounds, yet a lot of solar owners are not on TOU tariff rate. Can you imagine the financial hit SDGE will be faced with when all these solar owners can suddenly charge SDGE at peak rate during peak generating hours?

By going from a 4 tier system to a 2 tier system, SDGE is trying to discourage solar installations. A cross-the-board TOU system will significantly encourage solar installs.

As for your contractor’s claim that SDGE will have to charge pool heating costumers a lower rate. that’s complete bull, probably because he had nothing else to say on the subject and didn’t want to lose the business.

[ocrenter]

[quote=flu][quote=ocrenter][quote=CA renter][quote=AN]Too bad you can’t order the base house w/out flooring and kitchen so you don’t waste money tearing it out.[/quote]

I’ve often wondered this. Is it because you can’t get financing if the house isn’t complete?[/quote]

Yes, that’s the reason.

Out financing guy “looked the other way” and allowed the second floor to stay bare while we used our flooring allowance on linoleum on the first floor. The linoleum then served as the base for our travertine later on.[/quote]

Interesting…I often wondered if it’s possible to opt out of the builder’s options in kitchen and flooring and just put in what you want because it seemed like the builder’s markup was pretty big for upgrades and it didn’t make sense to me to put stuff in and then take them out again.

So did you have to put in a kitchen cabinet, counter via the builder, or were you able to get around that too?[/quote]

We were lucky in that the base cabinets were already quite nice.

The base granite, on the other hand, was quite mediocre. So we just had our contractor remove the base granite. As for the bathroom, according to my contractor it was very easy knocking out the base white tiles as it was still very new.

The bank was able to look the other way as long as they were able to take photos showing a fully done kitchen, and fully done bathrooms. That’s why bare floor on the second floor was ok but no countertop for kitchen and baths were not.

[ocrenter]

[quote=bibsoconner]Thanks for the comments everyone. My brother brought up a good point (he’s much smarter than myself!). If San Diego goes to “Time of Day” for electrical usage, that might greatly increase the cost of solar heating of the pool. Right now, I can pump anytime of the day I choose. If electricity cost more during daylight, I could pump and filter pool at 3 in the morning. With solar heating, you need to pump when the suns up and during the hottest parts of the day.

Anyone thought about this?
Anyone know how close we are to “Time of Day” pricing?

Dave[/quote]

I have been reaping the benefit of TOU pricing for a while due to my EV and solar set up. I also have an automated pool cover set up as well. I’m staying with TOU for the following reason:

–the automated pool cover will bring pool temp to 90 as long as the filter runs at high speed for couple of hours midday. The TOU peak rate starts at 12 noon to 6 pm at is at $.48 per kWh. The TOU rate for off peak is $.21 from 5 am to 12 noon and 6 pm to 12 midnight. Therefore, plenty of opportunity to run the filter on high during off peak hours prior to 12 noon.
–being grandfathered in with regard to net-metering means I’ll still be credited with solar production from 12 noon to 6 pm at $.48/kWh. Even if I do end up finding I’ll need the filter on high for an hour during the peak hours, I’m still coming out way ahead due to TOU.
–meanwhile, the pool filter and the EV are using/charging during super off peak at $.17 per kWh.

TOU is awesome if you have solar and can be grandfathered into the net-metering agreement by the end of the year. Something to think about if you do not yet have solar.

[ocrenter]

[quote=AN][quote=ocrenter]My point is most people will settle into what their genetic predisposition and socioeconomic tendencies guide them toward. It is the default, it is what comes easiest. And while a select few will be able to go against the grain, the vast majority will not. And that vast majority will take perfectly fluid and malleable situations with multiple possibilities and outcomes and turn them into very predictable singular outcome scenario and blame such outcome on fate.[/quote]Here’s the definition of fate: “the development of events beyond a person’s control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power.” So, genetic predisposition and socioeconomic tendencies are all part of fate IMHO. I’m fully aware we do have choices, but looking back, my choices are either to do OK or crash and burn. I was never given a choice to do exceptional. I was never given a choice to play bball like Mike, or play golf like Tiger, or be smart and ingenuitive like Gates, Brin, Jobs, etc. So, I accepted my fate that I will never be rich like them and be able to live their lives. Because of my genetic and personality predisposition (fate or just plain old probability), I’m able to brake free from the heard (sometimes). Maybe that’s what I’m destined to be or how well off I would be.

Here’s an example of in when you’re born will make a HUGE difference: If you’re born around 1980 and study software engineering, when you graduate in 2002 with a BS in Engineering, you’re faced with the .com crash. So if you’re lucky enough to get a job, you’d be paid crap. You’d save for a few years and got married, so decide to buy a place around 2006. You’d be screwed. But if you actively go against the heard, which is probabilistic-ally low, then you’d be a little better off, because then you can buy in 2008-2011 for a pretty big discount. However, lets take that exact same scenario, but lets say you’re born 6 years earlier in 1974. You’d be graduating with a BS in Engineering in 1996. Lets say you’re just as lucky in landing a job and your company when IPO. You also found a wife and decide to buy a house 4 years after you graduated. Since you have $1-2M due to stock options, you’re able to either buy a huge house in very nice area or be able to buy a nice primary and many rentals. If you just follow the heard and keep on working, you’d still be very well off. If you go against the heard like your personality dictate, you’d sell all your rentals and primary in 2005-2006. Rent and buy back in 2008-2011. You see how being born 6 years apart can yield a drastically different financial outcome. This is assuming you’re keeping all variables the same.[/quote]

I do agree there’s always an element of fate in play, but all along the way there’s always the ability to alter fate. Certainly within reason of course. Nothing is set in stone is all I’m saying.

[ocrenter]

[quote=CA renter][quote=AN]Too bad you can’t order the base house w/out flooring and kitchen so you don’t waste money tearing it out.[/quote]

I’ve often wondered this. Is it because you can’t get financing if the house isn’t complete?[/quote]

Yes, that’s the reason.

Out financing guy “looked the other way” and allowed the second floor to stay bare while we used our flooring allowance on linoleum on the first floor. The linoleum then served as the base for our travertine later on.

[ocrenter]

[quote=plm]Yes, on both of my new house purchases, they allow you to pay for upgrades separately. And usually they make you pay half up front in case you don’t go through with the purchase. I have found that the builder charges quite a bit more for upgrades but your kind of stuck using them unless you want to replace it yourself later.[/quote]

Yes, that’s my experience as well. You got to watch them like a hawk about it because the great majority of folks just include everything in the sales price so the “default” for the sales staff is to just mindlessly adding the upgrades into the sales price.

Also, when possible really best to just hire your own guys to do the upgrade unless the builder somehow was competitive with their prices, which usually isn’t the case.

[ocrenter]

[quote=kiki]Yes it was to you svelte.
Sorry for the confusion. My situation is I like to put an offer on a house that already has a solar lease. I was debating whether to still put the offer or not considering the seller does not want to buy it out.
If i do end up buying, i still want to considering buying the lease out.

If i buy a house with no solar, I would buy 100% over leasing but since this house already has a lease, my dilemma was what to do? or how to assess if it is a good deal.

Unfortunately i live in a townhouse so i cannot even compare my current bill because the house i want is double the sqft and has a pool.[/quote]

More specifics are needed. How big is the system? What is the lease term? How much is the buy out option? How much longer is the lease?

Solar prices are dropping extremely fast. Which means the terms for some of the leased systems installed early on may not be that great especially compared to brand new system you can purchase out right now.

[ocrenter]

[quote=AN][quote=ocrenter]That is why so many people use “fate” and “god’s plans” to excuse themselves from having to pay attention and be aware and make the necessary modifications.[/quote]A lot of time, it is fate. There are many things in life that you can’t change even if you wanted to. Cancer, marrying the wrong/right person, genetic diseases, born with/without birth defects, being hit by a drunk driver, being born with high/low IQ, being born in a very rich/poor family, being born in the wrong/right country at the wrong/right time (i.e. being born in Cambodia during the Khmer Rouge massacre and having 90% of your family executed and you survive because you just happen to be be out of town), etc. I think “fate” is “god’s plans” are way for people to explain/cope/make sense of/with things that are out of their control. I’m pretty sure if you’re born during the great depression era in the US or during the hyper inflation era in Germany, there’s really not much you can do but make lemonade out of lemons or suicide.[/quote]

Of course there are going to be the natural disasters and historic events where there will be zero options nor ability to foresee and change course. We could all go the way of the dinosaurs tomorrow and no one would be left to debate if they could have manipulated the cyclical events in their favor.

However, despite all of our genetic predisposition and socioeconomic tendencies we are all equipped with the ability make changes to that given fate on a regular basis. Most people do not. And that’s why marketing firms are able to make extremely accurate predictions of purchase behaviors while public health physicians can actually manipulate risky sexual behavior through offer of lotteries, but not steady payments.

My point is most people will settle into what their genetic predisposition and socioeconomic tendencies guide them toward. It is the default, it is what comes easiest. And while a select few will be able to go against the grain, the vast majority will not. And that vast majority will take perfectly fluid and malleable situations with multiple possibilities and outcomes and turn them into very predictable singular outcome scenario and blame such outcome on fate.

[ocrenter]

[quote=AN][quote=ocrenter][quote=AN][quote=njtosd]But we have been very lucky – our life events (birth of children, job changes) have coincided very well with the market.[/quote]I believe this is the most important factor of all. If your life events coincides with market cycle, then success tend to come much easier than if your life event doesn’t coincide with the market cycle.[/quote]

Well… As we can all atest to, one can manipulate life events to coincide with market cycle…[/quote]
Yes, it’s possible and I’ve done it. But it requires you to be aware of such cycle and modify your life events. Most people are not aware of such cycle and/or have no desire to learn about such cycle. For those majority, when you’re born and when your life event make a huge difference.[/quote]

That is why so many people use “fate” and “god’s plans” to excuse themselves from having to pay attention and be aware and make the necessary modifications.

[ocrenter]

[quote=AN][quote=njtosd]But we have been very lucky – our life events (birth of children, job changes) have coincided very well with the market.[/quote]I believe this is the most important factor of all. If your life events coincides with market cycle, then success tend to come much easier than if your life event doesn’t coincide with the market cycle.[/quote]

Well… As we can all atest to, one can manipulate life events to coincide with market cycle…

[ocrenter]

[quote=CA renter]

Exactly! I’ve been harping on this for awhile, too.

Just posted this above in this thread.

[/quote]

I think the writing is on the wall for SDGE. A change on the tier pricing merely delays the ROI a bit. Solar pricing are dropping so fast that my solar installer was not too concerned about the impending loss of the fed tax rebate by 2016. In fact, my system pre-tax rebate now was $5k less than the post-tax rebate quote from 2 years ago.

[ocrenter]

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2015/apr/21/commission-backs-utilities-on-bills/

SDGE states the 4 tier system is “unfair” to the heavy users.

LOL!!! The real reason is based on the current tiered system it is an absolute no-brainer for anyone in tier 4 range to change over to solar. They are losing the battle over these heavy users who use to subsidize the masses. So suddenly they realize the 4 tiered system is unfair. Too funny!

[ocrenter]

[quote=Clifford][quote=ocrenter][quote=FlyerInHi]It nice to see solar becoming mainstream.
It’s become somewhat is a status symbol. Soon we’ll think: what? You don’t have solar?

http://www.treehugger.com/bikes/bike-lane-down-center-korean-highway-covered-solar-panels.html%5B/quote%5D

It makes so much financial sense it is just crazy not to do it.

My ROI stands at less than 5 years and with an EV I got zero gas bill to go with that. Annual saving of $5000 combined.[/quote]

ocrenter,

Prior to install solar panels, how much did you pay for electricity & how much for gasoline ?[/quote]

Average of $150 per month for electricity prior to EV.
Average of $200 per month for electricity after EV (average of 1300 miles per month)
Average of $200 per month on gas prior to EV.

[Author]

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