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njtosd
Participant[quote=briansd1]
The marriage vows say nothing about sex outside of marriage.
One can have sex outside of marriage, still honor one’s word, and still love and cherish one’s spouse, all at the same time.[/quote]
Umm . . . . . usually people discuss their plans for marriage with their potential spouse prior to taking their marriage vows. I guess it is sort of a recipe for disaster if all you discuss prior to the big day is sports, politics and the antics of your coworkers. I distinctly remember looking at my husband-to-be and asking him if he wanted to have kids, and if so, how many. I would think that most people would work out those basic issues (including monogamy vs. lack thereof) before on embarking on something like marriage. But maybe not . . . .
Participant[quote=briansd1][quote=jpinpb] Society in general pushes for it.
[/quote]That’s the key here. That’s why I say that marriage is coercive.
For social advancement you need to get married.
[/quote]
Name a single choice in anyone’s life that is independent of societal pressures. Your argument, if it were correct, would excuse just about any bad behavior. Society expects me, as a woman, to be fashionable. If I can’t pay for nice clothes or if I choose not to, by your argument I should be able to steal them. Society pressures people to get advanced degrees; if I get into a course of study that just takes up more time than I anticipated, your argument suggests that cheating is to be expected. etc.
Society IS coercive – that is why people respect honorable choices that are made when it would have been easier to have made a dishonorable one.
Participant[quote=briansd1][quote=jpinpb] Society in general pushes for it.
[/quote]That’s the key here. That’s why I say that marriage is coercive.
For social advancement you need to get married.
[/quote]
Name a single choice in anyone’s life that is independent of societal pressures. Your argument, if it were correct, would excuse just about any bad behavior. Society expects me, as a woman, to be fashionable. If I can’t pay for nice clothes or if I choose not to, by your argument I should be able to steal them. Society pressures people to get advanced degrees; if I get into a course of study that just takes up more time than I anticipated, your argument suggests that cheating is to be expected. etc.
Society IS coercive – that is why people respect honorable choices that are made when it would have been easier to have made a dishonorable one.
Participant[quote=briansd1][quote=jpinpb] Society in general pushes for it.
[/quote]That’s the key here. That’s why I say that marriage is coercive.
For social advancement you need to get married.
[/quote]
Name a single choice in anyone’s life that is independent of societal pressures. Your argument, if it were correct, would excuse just about any bad behavior. Society expects me, as a woman, to be fashionable. If I can’t pay for nice clothes or if I choose not to, by your argument I should be able to steal them. Society pressures people to get advanced degrees; if I get into a course of study that just takes up more time than I anticipated, your argument suggests that cheating is to be expected. etc.
Society IS coercive – that is why people respect honorable choices that are made when it would have been easier to have made a dishonorable one.
Participant[quote=briansd1][quote=jpinpb] Society in general pushes for it.
[/quote]That’s the key here. That’s why I say that marriage is coercive.
For social advancement you need to get married.
[/quote]
Name a single choice in anyone’s life that is independent of societal pressures. Your argument, if it were correct, would excuse just about any bad behavior. Society expects me, as a woman, to be fashionable. If I can’t pay for nice clothes or if I choose not to, by your argument I should be able to steal them. Society pressures people to get advanced degrees; if I get into a course of study that just takes up more time than I anticipated, your argument suggests that cheating is to be expected. etc.
Society IS coercive – that is why people respect honorable choices that are made when it would have been easier to have made a dishonorable one.
Participant[quote=briansd1][quote=jpinpb] Society in general pushes for it.
[/quote]That’s the key here. That’s why I say that marriage is coercive.
For social advancement you need to get married.
[/quote]
Name a single choice in anyone’s life that is independent of societal pressures. Your argument, if it were correct, would excuse just about any bad behavior. Society expects me, as a woman, to be fashionable. If I can’t pay for nice clothes or if I choose not to, by your argument I should be able to steal them. Society pressures people to get advanced degrees; if I get into a course of study that just takes up more time than I anticipated, your argument suggests that cheating is to be expected. etc.
Society IS coercive – that is why people respect honorable choices that are made when it would have been easier to have made a dishonorable one.
Participant[quote=briansd1]
I don’t think that it’s misleading as much as that marriage is a hypocritical institution.
[/quote]
If you don’t want to get married under the conditions that the other person desires, don’t get married. If you agree, you should honor your word. No one holds a gun to your head and tells you to get married (unless you’re very unlucky). It’s a free choice.
I don’t believe that everyone needs to be married, any more than I believe that everyone should buy a house, take part in a religion or any other activity. All I’m saying is that people who promise something that they don’t intend to carry through on are, by definition, misleading others.
Guys who don’t want to get married should hang out with women who don’t want to get married. And if there is a married couple where both parties agree that sex outside the marriage is acceptable – great. But when you promise fidelity with your fingers crossed behind your back, it makes you a liar.
Participant[quote=briansd1]
I don’t think that it’s misleading as much as that marriage is a hypocritical institution.
[/quote]
If you don’t want to get married under the conditions that the other person desires, don’t get married. If you agree, you should honor your word. No one holds a gun to your head and tells you to get married (unless you’re very unlucky). It’s a free choice.
I don’t believe that everyone needs to be married, any more than I believe that everyone should buy a house, take part in a religion or any other activity. All I’m saying is that people who promise something that they don’t intend to carry through on are, by definition, misleading others.
Guys who don’t want to get married should hang out with women who don’t want to get married. And if there is a married couple where both parties agree that sex outside the marriage is acceptable – great. But when you promise fidelity with your fingers crossed behind your back, it makes you a liar.
Participant[quote=briansd1]
I don’t think that it’s misleading as much as that marriage is a hypocritical institution.
[/quote]
If you don’t want to get married under the conditions that the other person desires, don’t get married. If you agree, you should honor your word. No one holds a gun to your head and tells you to get married (unless you’re very unlucky). It’s a free choice.
I don’t believe that everyone needs to be married, any more than I believe that everyone should buy a house, take part in a religion or any other activity. All I’m saying is that people who promise something that they don’t intend to carry through on are, by definition, misleading others.
Guys who don’t want to get married should hang out with women who don’t want to get married. And if there is a married couple where both parties agree that sex outside the marriage is acceptable – great. But when you promise fidelity with your fingers crossed behind your back, it makes you a liar.
Participant[quote=briansd1]
I don’t think that it’s misleading as much as that marriage is a hypocritical institution.
[/quote]
If you don’t want to get married under the conditions that the other person desires, don’t get married. If you agree, you should honor your word. No one holds a gun to your head and tells you to get married (unless you’re very unlucky). It’s a free choice.
I don’t believe that everyone needs to be married, any more than I believe that everyone should buy a house, take part in a religion or any other activity. All I’m saying is that people who promise something that they don’t intend to carry through on are, by definition, misleading others.
Guys who don’t want to get married should hang out with women who don’t want to get married. And if there is a married couple where both parties agree that sex outside the marriage is acceptable – great. But when you promise fidelity with your fingers crossed behind your back, it makes you a liar.
Participant[quote=briansd1]
I don’t think that it’s misleading as much as that marriage is a hypocritical institution.
[/quote]
If you don’t want to get married under the conditions that the other person desires, don’t get married. If you agree, you should honor your word. No one holds a gun to your head and tells you to get married (unless you’re very unlucky). It’s a free choice.
I don’t believe that everyone needs to be married, any more than I believe that everyone should buy a house, take part in a religion or any other activity. All I’m saying is that people who promise something that they don’t intend to carry through on are, by definition, misleading others.
Guys who don’t want to get married should hang out with women who don’t want to get married. And if there is a married couple where both parties agree that sex outside the marriage is acceptable – great. But when you promise fidelity with your fingers crossed behind your back, it makes you a liar.
Participant[quote=davelj]Many men (and women – but I’m going to focus on men here) want to have their cake and eat it too. They enter into marriage because they want kids and the stability of a wife-partner. But they have no intention of being faithful. [/quote]
I think the point that you’re making is that people, men and women both, routinely mislead others for their own gain. There really isn’t any surprise there . . . Famous examples are Bernie Madoff, Martha Stewart and Barry Bonds, but it can be seen everywhere. And I wouldn’t take your friends’ experiences as being average. I assume that you are single, and it is pretty well accepted that married guys who want to hang out at the bar with their single friends are more interested in having an affair. In fact – they might be misleading YOU – saying they want to hang out at the bar with you when what they really want is cover for hanging out at the bar to meet women :). Just kidding, but it kind of makes you think . . .
Participant[quote=davelj]Many men (and women – but I’m going to focus on men here) want to have their cake and eat it too. They enter into marriage because they want kids and the stability of a wife-partner. But they have no intention of being faithful. [/quote]
I think the point that you’re making is that people, men and women both, routinely mislead others for their own gain. There really isn’t any surprise there . . . Famous examples are Bernie Madoff, Martha Stewart and Barry Bonds, but it can be seen everywhere. And I wouldn’t take your friends’ experiences as being average. I assume that you are single, and it is pretty well accepted that married guys who want to hang out at the bar with their single friends are more interested in having an affair. In fact – they might be misleading YOU – saying they want to hang out at the bar with you when what they really want is cover for hanging out at the bar to meet women :). Just kidding, but it kind of makes you think . . .
Participant[quote=davelj]Many men (and women – but I’m going to focus on men here) want to have their cake and eat it too. They enter into marriage because they want kids and the stability of a wife-partner. But they have no intention of being faithful. [/quote]
I think the point that you’re making is that people, men and women both, routinely mislead others for their own gain. There really isn’t any surprise there . . . Famous examples are Bernie Madoff, Martha Stewart and Barry Bonds, but it can be seen everywhere. And I wouldn’t take your friends’ experiences as being average. I assume that you are single, and it is pretty well accepted that married guys who want to hang out at the bar with their single friends are more interested in having an affair. In fact – they might be misleading YOU – saying they want to hang out at the bar with you when what they really want is cover for hanging out at the bar to meet women :). Just kidding, but it kind of makes you think . . .
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