[KSMountain]

What the CIA was owning up to as of Feb 08:
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/TheLaw/story?id=4244423

[KSMountain]

What the CIA was owning up to as of Feb 08:
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/TheLaw/story?id=4244423

[KSMountain]

Actually that link is really old, and it appears now to be inaccurate in crucial respects.

Still I haven’t seen anything (yet) indicating that more than 3 folks were waterboarded.

[KSMountain]

Actually that link is really old, and it appears now to be inaccurate in crucial respects.

Still I haven’t seen anything (yet) indicating that more than 3 folks were waterboarded.

[KSMountain]

Actually that link is really old, and it appears now to be inaccurate in crucial respects.

Still I haven’t seen anything (yet) indicating that more than 3 folks were waterboarded.

[KSMountain]

Actually that link is really old, and it appears now to be inaccurate in crucial respects.

Still I haven’t seen anything (yet) indicating that more than 3 folks were waterboarded.

[KSMountain]

Actually that link is really old, and it appears now to be inaccurate in crucial respects.

Still I haven’t seen anything (yet) indicating that more than 3 folks were waterboarded.

[KSMountain]

Here’s one:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/11/exclusive-only-.html

Do you really consider forced nudity to be torture? Really? I bet TG knows people who would volunteer for that. 🙂

[KSMountain]

Here’s one:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/11/exclusive-only-.html

Do you really consider forced nudity to be torture? Really? I bet TG knows people who would volunteer for that. 🙂

[KSMountain]

Here’s one:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/11/exclusive-only-.html

Do you really consider forced nudity to be torture? Really? I bet TG knows people who would volunteer for that. 🙂

[KSMountain]

Here’s one:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/11/exclusive-only-.html

Do you really consider forced nudity to be torture? Really? I bet TG knows people who would volunteer for that. 🙂

[KSMountain]

Here’s one:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/11/exclusive-only-.html

Do you really consider forced nudity to be torture? Really? I bet TG knows people who would volunteer for that. 🙂

[KSMountain]

[quote=gandalf]1. It was a systematically organized program authorized at the highest levels of OUR government, IN OUR NAMES, and it was wrong.
[/quote]
It was applied to 3 people – if that makes a program it was a pretty small program. Again I completely disagree with you and feel it was their actual *job* to try to get the maximum info from those 3 guys. Let’s see, there were 20 conspirators for 9/11 in the U.S. (that we know of). How many more? We need to know. What do you suggest: say “pretty please”?

[quote=gandalf]2. Torture is not effective from an interrogation perspective. False confessions and bad leads. The ticking bomb scenario assumes you know what they know and you don’t.
[/quote]
I’m not an expert on the efficacy of torture. But I know we *knew* those 3 guys knew a LOT. Think of their positions in the organization.

[quote=gandalf]4. This torture issue has been a recruitment poster for anti-American extremists. Whatever dubiously asserted tactical gains were acquired were vastly offset by the damage done to our overall strategic position.
[/quote]
Uh, proof please? Got some data? Let’s see, 9/11 happened before any torture. The Bali bombing, Cole bombing. World Trade Center bombing #1 – all before. The Spain bombing and London bombing and Shoe bomber may have happened before too. Get it? Those things were *already* happening. Going further: do you think the Taliban and Pakistan NWFP really care about what’s going on in Cuba? I seriously doubt it. They want to shape their region so that women don’t go to school, or drive, or talk to men not their husband and men don’t shave their beards, and no one listens to any music. Seriously. They are plenty self-motivated without any recruitment posters. I call B.S. on that. Also your second part where you say we got “dubious tactical gains”, again, proof please? Neither of us know, but you may recall we broke up a cell in Portland, we didn’t have the 10 airliners go down, we broke up the plot on all the tunnels in N.Y. – and those are just the things we were told about.

[KSMountain]

[quote=gandalf]1. It was a systematically organized program authorized at the highest levels of OUR government, IN OUR NAMES, and it was wrong.
[/quote]
It was applied to 3 people – if that makes a program it was a pretty small program. Again I completely disagree with you and feel it was their actual *job* to try to get the maximum info from those 3 guys. Let’s see, there were 20 conspirators for 9/11 in the U.S. (that we know of). How many more? We need to know. What do you suggest: say “pretty please”?

[quote=gandalf]2. Torture is not effective from an interrogation perspective. False confessions and bad leads. The ticking bomb scenario assumes you know what they know and you don’t.
[/quote]
I’m not an expert on the efficacy of torture. But I know we *knew* those 3 guys knew a LOT. Think of their positions in the organization.

[quote=gandalf]4. This torture issue has been a recruitment poster for anti-American extremists. Whatever dubiously asserted tactical gains were acquired were vastly offset by the damage done to our overall strategic position.
[/quote]
Uh, proof please? Got some data? Let’s see, 9/11 happened before any torture. The Bali bombing, Cole bombing. World Trade Center bombing #1 – all before. The Spain bombing and London bombing and Shoe bomber may have happened before too. Get it? Those things were *already* happening. Going further: do you think the Taliban and Pakistan NWFP really care about what’s going on in Cuba? I seriously doubt it. They want to shape their region so that women don’t go to school, or drive, or talk to men not their husband and men don’t shave their beards, and no one listens to any music. Seriously. They are plenty self-motivated without any recruitment posters. I call B.S. on that. Also your second part where you say we got “dubious tactical gains”, again, proof please? Neither of us know, but you may recall we broke up a cell in Portland, we didn’t have the 10 airliners go down, we broke up the plot on all the tunnels in N.Y. – and those are just the things we were told about.

[KSMountain]

[quote=gandalf]1. It was a systematically organized program authorized at the highest levels of OUR government, IN OUR NAMES, and it was wrong.
[/quote]
It was applied to 3 people – if that makes a program it was a pretty small program. Again I completely disagree with you and feel it was their actual *job* to try to get the maximum info from those 3 guys. Let’s see, there were 20 conspirators for 9/11 in the U.S. (that we know of). How many more? We need to know. What do you suggest: say “pretty please”?

[quote=gandalf]2. Torture is not effective from an interrogation perspective. False confessions and bad leads. The ticking bomb scenario assumes you know what they know and you don’t.
[/quote]
I’m not an expert on the efficacy of torture. But I know we *knew* those 3 guys knew a LOT. Think of their positions in the organization.

[quote=gandalf]4. This torture issue has been a recruitment poster for anti-American extremists. Whatever dubiously asserted tactical gains were acquired were vastly offset by the damage done to our overall strategic position.
[/quote]
Uh, proof please? Got some data? Let’s see, 9/11 happened before any torture. The Bali bombing, Cole bombing. World Trade Center bombing #1 – all before. The Spain bombing and London bombing and Shoe bomber may have happened before too. Get it? Those things were *already* happening. Going further: do you think the Taliban and Pakistan NWFP really care about what’s going on in Cuba? I seriously doubt it. They want to shape their region so that women don’t go to school, or drive, or talk to men not their husband and men don’t shave their beards, and no one listens to any music. Seriously. They are plenty self-motivated without any recruitment posters. I call B.S. on that. Also your second part where you say we got “dubious tactical gains”, again, proof please? Neither of us know, but you may recall we broke up a cell in Portland, we didn’t have the 10 airliners go down, we broke up the plot on all the tunnels in N.Y. – and those are just the things we were told about.

[Author]

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