[KSMountain]

Interesting Arraya. I note in that quote Iran is not mentioned once.

Way to not anticipate seemingly predictable consequences.

[KSMountain]

From the “it wasn’t just the neo-cons, and wasn’t a new idea” department:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Liberation_Act

The Act declared that it was the Policy of the United States to support “regime change.” The Act was passed 360-38 in the U.S. House of Representatives [4] and by unanimous consent in the Senate.[5] US President Bill Clinton signed the bill into law on October 31, 1998.

President Clinton stated in February 1998:
Iraq admitted, among other things, an offensive biological warfare capability, notably, 5,000 gallons of botulinum, which causes botulism; 2,000 gallons of anthrax; 25 biological-filled Scud warheads; and 157 aerial bombs. And I might say UNSCOM inspectors believe that Iraq has actually greatly understated its production…. Over the past few months, as [the weapons inspectors] have come closer and closer to rooting out Iraq’s remaining nuclear capacity, Saddam has undertaken yet another gambit to thwart their ambitions by imposing debilitating conditions on the inspectors and declaring key sites which have still not been inspected off limits…. It is obvious that there is an attempt here, based on the whole history of this operation since 1991, to protect whatever remains of his capacity to produce weapons of mass destruction, the missiles to deliver them, and the feed stocks necessary to produce them. The UNSCOM inspectors believe that Iraq still has stockpiles of chemical and biological munitions, a small force of Scud-type missiles, and the capacity to restart quickly its production program and build many, many more weapons…. Now, let’s imagine the future. What if he fails to comply and we fail to act, or we take some ambiguous third route, which gives him yet more opportunities to develop this program of weapons of mass destruction and continue to press for the release of the sanctions and continue to ignore the solemn commitments that he made? Well, he will conclude that the international community has lost its will. He will then conclude that he can go right on and do more to rebuild an arsenal of devastating destruction. And some day, some way, I guarantee you he’ll use the arsenal…. President Clinton ~ 1998 [6]

[KSMountain]

This is the justification that was offered at the time:
http://uspolitics.about.com/od/wariniraq/a/bush_2003march.htm

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[quote=Arraya]It’s pretty obvious they had their eyes on Iraq since the mid 90s. Interestingly, in a frontline episode, discussing the run up to war, they would have went to Iraq first if it was not for Colin Powell arguing it would not look good. Wolfowitz, Cheney and Rumsfeld were arguing hard for just bypassing Afghanistan and going right to Iraq.[/quote]
This is a little conspiratorial for my blood.

It neglects to mention that didn’t lots and lots of folks in Congress of both parties authorize Iraq? Wasn’t Obama like one of the few dissenters?

Also I believe Hillary and Biden both said at the time that it was “a question of when, not if” we go into Iraq.

Arraya are you saying Hillary and Biden were in on the conspiracy? Or were they like naive little rabbits that were duped by the Darth-vader like machinations of Cheney? I don’t believe that for a minute. I believe both of those two are able to think independently.

I don’t feel the action was sufficiently justified, and I wish we didn’t go. I would love to have all the lives (on both sides) and treasure back.

But I don’t agree with scaredy that there was ZERO justification. We didn’t just wake up one day and decide to do it for ZERO reason. That’s a lot of letters to parents of dead kids you’d be signing up to write, and you would KNOW that you would have to do that. Even if you were the allegedly retarded Bush.

Let me take a stab at a justification (acknowledging right up front that it IS weak, but it is more than zero): I believe that in that moment, at that time, after all the UN resolutions, after all the sanctions, after years of No-fly zones, after the Iran Iraq war, after gassing the Kurds, after Gulf War I, when he annexed Kuwait and massed troops just North of Saudi, after him going to great lengths to try to convince everyone that he had WMD, and THEN after 9/11 (try to remember how it felt when it was fresh), “we” (many of our leaders, not just neocons) just weren’t in a mood to take a chance. We wanted to experiment with pre-emptively “solving” the problem.

I don’t agree with that decision, and I remember emailing folks that I was baffled about it at the time.

But from the “it’s an ill wind that blows no good” department – do you give any credence to the idea that overthrowing Hussein and establishing a democracy in Iraq could have in any way contributed to the so-called Arab Spring? And might that be some small measure of “good” that came out of the war? Beyond that, might things be better for Shia and Kurds in Iraq now? Not saying it’s justification – but maybe it’s *something* to show for $1.5T or whatever it is.

[/me dons flame-retardant suit]

[KSMountain]

[quote=Nor-LA-SD-GUY2]The Automation economy, I coined it first I think, anyway it does not matter.
This will be the main cause, not offshoring in the future, Robots don’t have citizenship.

http://singularityhub.com/2011/09/12/robotic-labor-taking-over-the-world-you-bet-here-are-the-details/%5B/quote%5D
The Automation economy. I like it. I have mentioned myself recently that I think this has an impact on the demise of the MC. Certainly if you’re *making* almost anything physical, robots are eying your job (or parts of it). But your article goes further to talk about service jobs.

[KSMountain]

[quote=walterwhite]Without the war there would be zero war related deaths.

So if you go into a crowded casino with a shotgun and start shhoting the place up, and some guys start shooting back at you but hit some slots players who should get the bill for the deaths?[/quote]

If the casino is also a fire hazard and a center of drug dealing and other criminality – and you lived nearby – would you want the police and fire department to clean the place up? Would you be satisfied if the mayor and police chief said, “well, we’d like to clean it up but someone might get hurt”…

I’m not saying I’m a fan of the Iraq war or any war. But just hoping that bad people will be nice if you’re nice has not proven to be a viable strategy historically. It would be so nice if the world worked that way, it really would. But you have to face that not everyone is as nice as you. Some are criminals. Some are opportunists. Ignoring them does not make them go away. Leading by example of niceness, does not make them nicer. On the contrary, left alone, they get stronger and ultimately it becomes a problem you have to deal with.

[KSMountain]

[quote=Arraya][quote=walterwhite]When you act w reckless disregard for human life, you act intentionally.[/quote]

Actually 100,000 is on the very low end that goes up a magnitude of order more which also multiplies by a factor of 5 if you include seriously injured. Do you think all those families with lost loved ones, jobs, homes and critical infrastructure(electricity and water) are sitting around saying “Well, they didn’t intentionally do it.” Collateral damage is scholarly sounding name for oops sorry – which is supposed to make it all better and absolve guilt.[/quote]
Guys, are you aware how careful we are in Afghanistan nowadays? How much analysis goes on before a bomb or missile or drone strike? How confirmation is required before shooting?

Just because you postulate that there are slobbering barbarians at the controls doesn’t make it so.

In Afghanistan, I believe NGOs have concluded something like 90% of the civilian deaths have been caused by Taliban and AQ.

In Iraq, are you saying *we* have killed 100,000 *civilians* and seriously injured 500,000? Can you back that up from a credible source?

[KSMountain]

[quote=Jacarandoso]In a pragmatic sense we were at war with Japan and they were at war with us prior to Pearl Harbor.

They were acting boldly against our interests.Embargoes were in place.
Any peace was extremely tenuous and the US was preparing war.We were aiding and abetting the enemies of her allies, in what was already a “world” conflagration.

The US had acted “imperially” in the the previous decades and had ramped up mobilization for war at least as early as 1939. We had not been sitting around eating apple pies and playing baseball. Everyone with the need to know anticipated a “sneak attack”…was certain of one, but expected it to be more of a proxy nature or at least not be as devastating as pearl harbor.[/quote]
I agree with most of this.

I strongly disagree with Mr. Ogre’s assertion that we were strangling Japan in order to “get in” to WWII.

[KSMountain]

[quote=walterwhite]Iraq civilian body count 100,000 plus[/quote]
How many of them killed intentionally, by us?

[KSMountain]

Going back to mr ogre’s original statement:
[quote=John Ogre]The saddest part of all of this psycho-religious observance is that most Americans are far too ignorant to understand that 911 and Pearl Harbor were both direct responses to the USA acting as the world’s bully.

The naive masses act as if we have never bombed and killed innocents and yet we routinely kill more innocent people than what died in either incident.
[/quote]
So John, you think Bin Laden was upset with our bullying, and if only we bullied less 9/11 wouldn’t have happened? What do you think were his motivations for declaring war on the “far enemy” and executing 9/11? It’s not a mystery, he stated his positions and rationale multiple times. In my opinion he wanted to overthrow the Saudi royals, and all his actions in reality stemmed from that.

If that is so, then we didn’t really “reap what we sowed” unless you think we should try to appease any and all individuals who make demands on our foreign policy for their own ends.

To your second paragraph: anyone, please tell me the last time we bombed and killed 3000 innocents. You say we do it “routinely”. So, when was the last time? Thanks.

[KSMountain]

Uh Mr. Ogre.,

Are you aware of *why* we might have tried to block Japan’s access to oil at that time?

Was it just imperial hubris? Or say, if you were president at that time: might you have done the same thing? Think before answering, and ask yourself: why has Obama continued many of the policies of the supposedly retarded and evil Bush? How could that possibly have happened, when objectively speaking, coming in to office, Obama was one of the smartest and most left-leaning politicians in some time? Ponder that for a moment.

You talk of ignorance, are you sure you’re up to speed on what was going on in that part of Asia in ’36-’41? And what happened ’41-’45? Educate me: is there a case where the U.S. has institutionally done a rape of Nanking, or a Korea comfort worker situation? Or a Bataan death march? What I think of is My Lai, which was much much smaller and we certainly examined ourselves over that and prosecuted folks. Abu Ghraib doesn’t even pass the laugh test as far as comparable mal activity.

Moral equivalence is mental sloth.

[KSMountain]

If you read the quotes from the phone calls placed from that flight – it is quite remarkable. Multiple folks, independently, male and female, tell their loved ones “I have to go. We’re going to do something now”. It is really quite inspirational.

I understand the backlash against the commercial schmaltz.

I have seen many comments say 9/11 pales in comparison to the atrocity of say, our actions in Iraq. Well, point me to an instance where we intentionally and successfully killed thousands of civilians, intentionally, in a single act. There is no analog, in my view.

[KSMountain]

There’s no such thing as an “illegal alien”. We are all denizens of the same hunk of rock and water that is twisting and orbiting through what so far appears to be a very lonely neighborhood.

[KSMountain]

There’s no such thing as an “illegal alien”. We are all denizens of the same hunk of rock and water that is twisting and orbiting through what so far appears to be a very lonely neighborhood.

[KSMountain]

There’s no such thing as an “illegal alien”. We are all denizens of the same hunk of rock and water that is twisting and orbiting through what so far appears to be a very lonely neighborhood.

[Author]

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