[justme]

Here’s a litte summary for y’all:

AFF: Obama associated with a priest that said “God Damns America”, he is
bad and should not be elected.

Justme: McCain associates with Bush II, a known killer, liar and neocon
warmonger. Perhaps NcCain is the one that is bad and should not be
elected.

AFF: Oh yeah? Clinton dropped more bombs than US did in all of WW2
(false), Clinton was more interventionist than Bush II (false), Clinton
spent more American blood and treasure than Bush (false), No-Fly zones
was a Clinton program (false), Clinton killed 500,000 Iraqs through UN
sanctions (false), I know about war (don’t we all), I was in Vietnam
(very well), so there (yeah, some if these statements MIGHT be very
vaguely relevant to Obama if only they were TRUE).

Justme: Is AFF for real? Can he stick to the topic? Why does he make so
many false statements? Why does he try to derail the discussion by
setting up Bill Clinton as a strawman? Can one trust AFFs judgement on
anything about Obama? (or anything at all for that sake?).

[justme]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]justme: I’m curious as to where your “facts” came from.

Specifically, the statement that Dubya spent more money on killing people than any President since Nixon. I was under the impression that LBJ, a Democrat, holds that dubious distinction.

SNIP

Also, Clinton was far more interventionist than Dubya.

SNIP

[/quote]

Alan, I’m sure it was just an oversight that you ignored that I said “since Nixon”. Johnson was *before* Nixon. Not sure whether Johnson spent more money in 1963-1965-1968 than Nixon did in 1968-1974.

You then make up a figure of merit that you call “(degree of) interventionism”, and use the numerical count of “interventions” as a measure. I think the correct measure is the number of dead persons and the amount of money spent. Also, whether the interventions served a legitimate purpose.

Your statistics are highly questionable. You say that Clinton dropped more tonnage on Iraq in 3 days in 1998 than WWII. What is the source of that? I looked in Wikipedia and could not find it. Do you have a solid reference?

It is permitted to disagree. But the arguments you presented are pretty weak and rather suspect on a factual basis.

[justme]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]justme: I’m curious as to where your “facts” came from.

Specifically, the statement that Dubya spent more money on killing people than any President since Nixon. I was under the impression that LBJ, a Democrat, holds that dubious distinction.

SNIP

Also, Clinton was far more interventionist than Dubya.

SNIP

[/quote]

Alan, I’m sure it was just an oversight that you ignored that I said “since Nixon”. Johnson was *before* Nixon. Not sure whether Johnson spent more money in 1963-1965-1968 than Nixon did in 1968-1974.

You then make up a figure of merit that you call “(degree of) interventionism”, and use the numerical count of “interventions” as a measure. I think the correct measure is the number of dead persons and the amount of money spent. Also, whether the interventions served a legitimate purpose.

Your statistics are highly questionable. You say that Clinton dropped more tonnage on Iraq in 3 days in 1998 than WWII. What is the source of that? I looked in Wikipedia and could not find it. Do you have a solid reference?

It is permitted to disagree. But the arguments you presented are pretty weak and rather suspect on a factual basis.

[justme]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]justme: I’m curious as to where your “facts” came from.

Specifically, the statement that Dubya spent more money on killing people than any President since Nixon. I was under the impression that LBJ, a Democrat, holds that dubious distinction.

SNIP

Also, Clinton was far more interventionist than Dubya.

SNIP

[/quote]

Alan, I’m sure it was just an oversight that you ignored that I said “since Nixon”. Johnson was *before* Nixon. Not sure whether Johnson spent more money in 1963-1965-1968 than Nixon did in 1968-1974.

You then make up a figure of merit that you call “(degree of) interventionism”, and use the numerical count of “interventions” as a measure. I think the correct measure is the number of dead persons and the amount of money spent. Also, whether the interventions served a legitimate purpose.

Your statistics are highly questionable. You say that Clinton dropped more tonnage on Iraq in 3 days in 1998 than WWII. What is the source of that? I looked in Wikipedia and could not find it. Do you have a solid reference?

It is permitted to disagree. But the arguments you presented are pretty weak and rather suspect on a factual basis.

[justme]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]justme: I’m curious as to where your “facts” came from.

Specifically, the statement that Dubya spent more money on killing people than any President since Nixon. I was under the impression that LBJ, a Democrat, holds that dubious distinction.

SNIP

Also, Clinton was far more interventionist than Dubya.

SNIP

[/quote]

Alan, I’m sure it was just an oversight that you ignored that I said “since Nixon”. Johnson was *before* Nixon. Not sure whether Johnson spent more money in 1963-1965-1968 than Nixon did in 1968-1974.

You then make up a figure of merit that you call “(degree of) interventionism”, and use the numerical count of “interventions” as a measure. I think the correct measure is the number of dead persons and the amount of money spent. Also, whether the interventions served a legitimate purpose.

Your statistics are highly questionable. You say that Clinton dropped more tonnage on Iraq in 3 days in 1998 than WWII. What is the source of that? I looked in Wikipedia and could not find it. Do you have a solid reference?

It is permitted to disagree. But the arguments you presented are pretty weak and rather suspect on a factual basis.

[justme]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]justme: I’m curious as to where your “facts” came from.

Specifically, the statement that Dubya spent more money on killing people than any President since Nixon. I was under the impression that LBJ, a Democrat, holds that dubious distinction.

SNIP

Also, Clinton was far more interventionist than Dubya.

SNIP

[/quote]

Alan, I’m sure it was just an oversight that you ignored that I said “since Nixon”. Johnson was *before* Nixon. Not sure whether Johnson spent more money in 1963-1965-1968 than Nixon did in 1968-1974.

You then make up a figure of merit that you call “(degree of) interventionism”, and use the numerical count of “interventions” as a measure. I think the correct measure is the number of dead persons and the amount of money spent. Also, whether the interventions served a legitimate purpose.

Your statistics are highly questionable. You say that Clinton dropped more tonnage on Iraq in 3 days in 1998 than WWII. What is the source of that? I looked in Wikipedia and could not find it. Do you have a solid reference?

It is permitted to disagree. But the arguments you presented are pretty weak and rather suspect on a factual basis.

[justme]

[quote=Ex-SD]justme: S

*What about the rest of my post? Obviously, you believe that it’s o.k. for Obama to associate with people like the racist, Rev Wright for over 20 years.

How’s that for some convoluted, contorted logic, smart guy? [/quote]

Your sarcasm aside, why is it ok for MacCain to associate for 8 years with Bush II and his gaggle of neocons, who are known war mongers, war profiteers and liars of the first degree?

Yes, your logic is indeed convoluted. Geroge Bush kills people and McCain is a strong associate of his. Rev. Wright made some strongly worded statements about America. You need to keep the relative seriousness of this in proportion.

[justme]

[quote=Ex-SD]justme: S

*What about the rest of my post? Obviously, you believe that it’s o.k. for Obama to associate with people like the racist, Rev Wright for over 20 years.

How’s that for some convoluted, contorted logic, smart guy? [/quote]

Your sarcasm aside, why is it ok for MacCain to associate for 8 years with Bush II and his gaggle of neocons, who are known war mongers, war profiteers and liars of the first degree?

Yes, your logic is indeed convoluted. Geroge Bush kills people and McCain is a strong associate of his. Rev. Wright made some strongly worded statements about America. You need to keep the relative seriousness of this in proportion.

[justme]

[quote=Ex-SD]justme: S

*What about the rest of my post? Obviously, you believe that it’s o.k. for Obama to associate with people like the racist, Rev Wright for over 20 years.

How’s that for some convoluted, contorted logic, smart guy? [/quote]

Your sarcasm aside, why is it ok for MacCain to associate for 8 years with Bush II and his gaggle of neocons, who are known war mongers, war profiteers and liars of the first degree?

Yes, your logic is indeed convoluted. Geroge Bush kills people and McCain is a strong associate of his. Rev. Wright made some strongly worded statements about America. You need to keep the relative seriousness of this in proportion.

[justme]

[quote=Ex-SD]justme: S

*What about the rest of my post? Obviously, you believe that it’s o.k. for Obama to associate with people like the racist, Rev Wright for over 20 years.

How’s that for some convoluted, contorted logic, smart guy? [/quote]

Your sarcasm aside, why is it ok for MacCain to associate for 8 years with Bush II and his gaggle of neocons, who are known war mongers, war profiteers and liars of the first degree?

Yes, your logic is indeed convoluted. Geroge Bush kills people and McCain is a strong associate of his. Rev. Wright made some strongly worded statements about America. You need to keep the relative seriousness of this in proportion.

[justme]

[quote=Ex-SD]justme: S

*What about the rest of my post? Obviously, you believe that it’s o.k. for Obama to associate with people like the racist, Rev Wright for over 20 years.

How’s that for some convoluted, contorted logic, smart guy? [/quote]

Your sarcasm aside, why is it ok for MacCain to associate for 8 years with Bush II and his gaggle of neocons, who are known war mongers, war profiteers and liars of the first degree?

Yes, your logic is indeed convoluted. Geroge Bush kills people and McCain is a strong associate of his. Rev. Wright made some strongly worded statements about America. You need to keep the relative seriousness of this in proportion.

[justme]

[quote=Ex-SD]Frankly, I don’t care if Obama is pink, purple, red, orange, black or white. What I DO care about is the fact that he has shown himself to be extremely liberal which means he would throw billions of dollars at new social programs rather than attempting to fix what’s wrong with the present myriad of social programs. Furthermore, he has shown that he will associate himself with radicals like Rev Wright for over 20 years and then claim that he didn’t know Wright was so radical. To me, this proves that Obama is a huge liar. Bush has been lying to us for years……………….Do we need a another big tax & spender (and liar) in the White House?[/quote]

Duh. Now you’re saying that because the current REPUBLICAN in the White House is a congenital liar that spends more money on killing people than any president since Richard Nixon (also a republican, not a coincidence), we should NOT vote for Obama ?!?

This is the kind of contorted “logic” that got us into war in the first place. Double duh.

[justme]

[quote=Ex-SD]Frankly, I don’t care if Obama is pink, purple, red, orange, black or white. What I DO care about is the fact that he has shown himself to be extremely liberal which means he would throw billions of dollars at new social programs rather than attempting to fix what’s wrong with the present myriad of social programs. Furthermore, he has shown that he will associate himself with radicals like Rev Wright for over 20 years and then claim that he didn’t know Wright was so radical. To me, this proves that Obama is a huge liar. Bush has been lying to us for years……………….Do we need a another big tax & spender (and liar) in the White House?[/quote]

Duh. Now you’re saying that because the current REPUBLICAN in the White House is a congenital liar that spends more money on killing people than any president since Richard Nixon (also a republican, not a coincidence), we should NOT vote for Obama ?!?

This is the kind of contorted “logic” that got us into war in the first place. Double duh.

[justme]

[quote=Ex-SD]Frankly, I don’t care if Obama is pink, purple, red, orange, black or white. What I DO care about is the fact that he has shown himself to be extremely liberal which means he would throw billions of dollars at new social programs rather than attempting to fix what’s wrong with the present myriad of social programs. Furthermore, he has shown that he will associate himself with radicals like Rev Wright for over 20 years and then claim that he didn’t know Wright was so radical. To me, this proves that Obama is a huge liar. Bush has been lying to us for years……………….Do we need a another big tax & spender (and liar) in the White House?[/quote]

Duh. Now you’re saying that because the current REPUBLICAN in the White House is a congenital liar that spends more money on killing people than any president since Richard Nixon (also a republican, not a coincidence), we should NOT vote for Obama ?!?

This is the kind of contorted “logic” that got us into war in the first place. Double duh.

[justme]

[quote=Ex-SD]Frankly, I don’t care if Obama is pink, purple, red, orange, black or white. What I DO care about is the fact that he has shown himself to be extremely liberal which means he would throw billions of dollars at new social programs rather than attempting to fix what’s wrong with the present myriad of social programs. Furthermore, he has shown that he will associate himself with radicals like Rev Wright for over 20 years and then claim that he didn’t know Wright was so radical. To me, this proves that Obama is a huge liar. Bush has been lying to us for years……………….Do we need a another big tax & spender (and liar) in the White House?[/quote]

Duh. Now you’re saying that because the current REPUBLICAN in the White House is a congenital liar that spends more money on killing people than any president since Richard Nixon (also a republican, not a coincidence), we should NOT vote for Obama ?!?

This is the kind of contorted “logic” that got us into war in the first place. Double duh.

[Author]

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