[justme]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]justme: Here we go again, huh?

1. I said Clinton enforced the sanctions, and you confirmed this. Again, I never said Clinton instituted them, I simply said he enforced them.

2. The 500,000 number has been used by International Red Cross, Amnesty International, and UN Council for Human Rights. The number may be false, as it is an estimate. However, given that all three of those bodies have cited it at length does give it some credence. And, yes, this happened on Clinton’s watch, so it is directly attributable to him.

3. Raw tonnage of bombs dropped did exceed WWII. I was not using the Counterpunch article regarding the number, I simply said that the article spoke about the tonnage dropped under Clinton was the heaviest since the Vietnam War. If you do a little research (and you seem to think Wikipedia is the end all be all, you can easily verify this), you will find that the US bombing campaign in Vietnam absolutely dwarfed the bombing campaign over Germany during WWII. In point of fact, you can check the raw tonnage of bombs dropped during Operation Linebacker II in 1972 (the Hanoi and Haiphong Harbor campaign) and compare that to ALL the bombs dropped during WWII. So, if Clinton dropped more raw tonnage since the Vietnam War, and the Vietnam War exceeded WWII by a huge margin, well, quad erat demonstratum Bunkie.

SNIP

[/quote]

1. Allan originally said: Operation Desert Fox was part of an on-going Clinton Administration program that included sanctions, enforcement of the No-Fly Zone, as well as direct military intervention in Iraq.

Now read what you said: “an on-going Clinton Administration program that included sanctions,” That sure as hells sounds like you are saying that CLintin instituted the sanctions, does it not. Again, it was a UN sanction.

2. Allan originally said:Clinton’s sanctions were estimated to have killed 500,000 according to Amnesty International.

Again, you are lying. They were NOT Clinton’s sanctions. They were enacted by UN and Bush1. That the UN resolution was still in effect under Clinton is not relevant.
And the estimated death toll of sanctions is in dispute.

3. Allan said: So, if Clinton dropped more raw tonnage since the Vietnam War, and the Vietnam War exceeded WWII by a huge margin, well, quad erat demonstratum Bunkie.

Allan, you need to read properly. Even your own chosen source did not say what you claim above. Your own source said “He subjected Iraq (with British help) to the longest sustained bombing campaign since Vietnam”. You have to understand that “longest sutained since” or even “largest sustained since” (your own source did not even use that expression, but let us say it is true for the sake of argument) does not mean “larger than”. It would just mean that it was larger than any OTHER bombing campaign that took place after the Vietnam war. And it sure as hell does not make it bigger than Vietnam, nor WW2 bombing tonnage. The logic of you statements is just complwtely wrong.

In summary:

Allan, you can’t even twist your own hand-picked sources into agreeing with you. You need to stop.

And you need to accept that your contorted argument that Obama is worse than McCain because of Obama’s former pastor and a long list of irrelevant things that Clinton DID NOT do is just totally bogus. QED.

[justme]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]justme: Here we go again, huh?

1. I said Clinton enforced the sanctions, and you confirmed this. Again, I never said Clinton instituted them, I simply said he enforced them.

2. The 500,000 number has been used by International Red Cross, Amnesty International, and UN Council for Human Rights. The number may be false, as it is an estimate. However, given that all three of those bodies have cited it at length does give it some credence. And, yes, this happened on Clinton’s watch, so it is directly attributable to him.

3. Raw tonnage of bombs dropped did exceed WWII. I was not using the Counterpunch article regarding the number, I simply said that the article spoke about the tonnage dropped under Clinton was the heaviest since the Vietnam War. If you do a little research (and you seem to think Wikipedia is the end all be all, you can easily verify this), you will find that the US bombing campaign in Vietnam absolutely dwarfed the bombing campaign over Germany during WWII. In point of fact, you can check the raw tonnage of bombs dropped during Operation Linebacker II in 1972 (the Hanoi and Haiphong Harbor campaign) and compare that to ALL the bombs dropped during WWII. So, if Clinton dropped more raw tonnage since the Vietnam War, and the Vietnam War exceeded WWII by a huge margin, well, quad erat demonstratum Bunkie.

SNIP

[/quote]

1. Allan originally said: Operation Desert Fox was part of an on-going Clinton Administration program that included sanctions, enforcement of the No-Fly Zone, as well as direct military intervention in Iraq.

Now read what you said: “an on-going Clinton Administration program that included sanctions,” That sure as hells sounds like you are saying that CLintin instituted the sanctions, does it not. Again, it was a UN sanction.

2. Allan originally said:Clinton’s sanctions were estimated to have killed 500,000 according to Amnesty International.

Again, you are lying. They were NOT Clinton’s sanctions. They were enacted by UN and Bush1. That the UN resolution was still in effect under Clinton is not relevant.
And the estimated death toll of sanctions is in dispute.

3. Allan said: So, if Clinton dropped more raw tonnage since the Vietnam War, and the Vietnam War exceeded WWII by a huge margin, well, quad erat demonstratum Bunkie.

Allan, you need to read properly. Even your own chosen source did not say what you claim above. Your own source said “He subjected Iraq (with British help) to the longest sustained bombing campaign since Vietnam”. You have to understand that “longest sutained since” or even “largest sustained since” (your own source did not even use that expression, but ;et us say it is true for the sake of argument) does not mean “larger than”. It would just mean that it was larger than any OTHER bombing campaign that took place after the Vietnam war. And it sure as hell does not make it bigger than Vietnam, nor WW2 bombing tonnage. The logic of you statements is just complwtely wrong.

In summary:

Allan, you can’t even twist your own hand-picked sources into agreeing with you. You need to stop.

And you need to accept that your contorted argument that Obama is worse than McCain because of Obama’s former pastor and a long list of irrelevant things that Clinton DID NOT do is just totally bogus. QED.

[justme]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]justme: Here we go again, huh?

1. I said Clinton enforced the sanctions, and you confirmed this. Again, I never said Clinton instituted them, I simply said he enforced them.

2. The 500,000 number has been used by International Red Cross, Amnesty International, and UN Council for Human Rights. The number may be false, as it is an estimate. However, given that all three of those bodies have cited it at length does give it some credence. And, yes, this happened on Clinton’s watch, so it is directly attributable to him.

3. Raw tonnage of bombs dropped did exceed WWII. I was not using the Counterpunch article regarding the number, I simply said that the article spoke about the tonnage dropped under Clinton was the heaviest since the Vietnam War. If you do a little research (and you seem to think Wikipedia is the end all be all, you can easily verify this), you will find that the US bombing campaign in Vietnam absolutely dwarfed the bombing campaign over Germany during WWII. In point of fact, you can check the raw tonnage of bombs dropped during Operation Linebacker II in 1972 (the Hanoi and Haiphong Harbor campaign) and compare that to ALL the bombs dropped during WWII. So, if Clinton dropped more raw tonnage since the Vietnam War, and the Vietnam War exceeded WWII by a huge margin, well, quad erat demonstratum Bunkie.

SNIP

[/quote]

1. Allan originally said: Operation Desert Fox was part of an on-going Clinton Administration program that included sanctions, enforcement of the No-Fly Zone, as well as direct military intervention in Iraq.

Now read what you said: “an on-going Clinton Administration program that included sanctions,” That sure as hells sounds like you are saying that CLintin instituted the sanctions, does it not. Again, it was a UN sanction.

2. Allan originally said:Clinton’s sanctions were estimated to have killed 500,000 according to Amnesty International.

Again, you are lying. They were NOT Clinton’s sanctions. They were enacted by UN and Bush1. That the UN resolution was still in effect under Clinton is not relevant.
And the estimated death toll of sanctions is in dispute.

3. Allan said: So, if Clinton dropped more raw tonnage since the Vietnam War, and the Vietnam War exceeded WWII by a huge margin, well, quad erat demonstratum Bunkie.

Allan, you need to read properly. Even your own chosen source did not say what you claim above. Your own source said “He subjected Iraq (with British help) to the longest sustained bombing campaign since Vietnam”. You have to understand that “longest sutained since” or even “largest sustained since” (your own source did not even use that expression, but ;et us say it is true for the sake of argument) does not mean “larger than”. It would just mean that it was larger than any OTHER bombing campaign that took place after the Vietnam war. And it sure as hell does not make it bigger than Vietnam, nor WW2 bombing tonnage. The logic of you statements is just complwtely wrong.

In summary:

Allan, you can’t even twist your own hand-picked sources into agreeing with you. You need to stop.

And you need to accept that your contorted argument that Obama is worse than McCain because of Obama’s former pastor and a long list of irrelevant things that Clinton DID NOT do is just totally bogus. QED.

[justme]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]justme: Here we go again, huh?

1. I said Clinton enforced the sanctions, and you confirmed this. Again, I never said Clinton instituted them, I simply said he enforced them.

2. The 500,000 number has been used by International Red Cross, Amnesty International, and UN Council for Human Rights. The number may be false, as it is an estimate. However, given that all three of those bodies have cited it at length does give it some credence. And, yes, this happened on Clinton’s watch, so it is directly attributable to him.

3. Raw tonnage of bombs dropped did exceed WWII. I was not using the Counterpunch article regarding the number, I simply said that the article spoke about the tonnage dropped under Clinton was the heaviest since the Vietnam War. If you do a little research (and you seem to think Wikipedia is the end all be all, you can easily verify this), you will find that the US bombing campaign in Vietnam absolutely dwarfed the bombing campaign over Germany during WWII. In point of fact, you can check the raw tonnage of bombs dropped during Operation Linebacker II in 1972 (the Hanoi and Haiphong Harbor campaign) and compare that to ALL the bombs dropped during WWII. So, if Clinton dropped more raw tonnage since the Vietnam War, and the Vietnam War exceeded WWII by a huge margin, well, quad erat demonstratum Bunkie.

SNIP

[/quote]

1. Allan originally said: Operation Desert Fox was part of an on-going Clinton Administration program that included sanctions, enforcement of the No-Fly Zone, as well as direct military intervention in Iraq.

Now read what you said: “an on-going Clinton Administration program that included sanctions,” That sure as hells sounds like you are saying that CLintin instituted the sanctions, does it not. Again, it was a UN sanction.

2. Allan originally said:Clinton’s sanctions were estimated to have killed 500,000 according to Amnesty International.

Again, you are lying. They were NOT Clinton’s sanctions. They were enacted by UN and Bush1. That the UN resolution was still in effect under Clinton is not relevant.
And the estimated death toll of sanctions is in dispute.

3. Allan said: So, if Clinton dropped more raw tonnage since the Vietnam War, and the Vietnam War exceeded WWII by a huge margin, well, quad erat demonstratum Bunkie.

Allan, you need to read properly. Even your own chosen source did not say what you claim above. Your own source said “He subjected Iraq (with British help) to the longest sustained bombing campaign since Vietnam”. You have to understand that “longest sutained since” or even “largest sustained since” (your own source did not even use that expression, but ;et us say it is true for the sake of argument) does not mean “larger than”. It would just mean that it was larger than any OTHER bombing campaign that took place after the Vietnam war. And it sure as hell does not make it bigger than Vietnam, nor WW2 bombing tonnage. The logic of you statements is just complwtely wrong.

In summary:

Allan, you can’t even twist your own hand-picked sources into agreeing with you. You need to stop.

And you need to accept that your contorted argument that Obama is worse than McCain because of Obama’s former pastor and a long list of irrelevant things that Clinton DID NOT do is just totally bogus. QED.

[justme]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]justme: Here we go again, huh?

1. I said Clinton enforced the sanctions, and you confirmed this. Again, I never said Clinton instituted them, I simply said he enforced them.

2. The 500,000 number has been used by International Red Cross, Amnesty International, and UN Council for Human Rights. The number may be false, as it is an estimate. However, given that all three of those bodies have cited it at length does give it some credence. And, yes, this happened on Clinton’s watch, so it is directly attributable to him.

3. Raw tonnage of bombs dropped did exceed WWII. I was not using the Counterpunch article regarding the number, I simply said that the article spoke about the tonnage dropped under Clinton was the heaviest since the Vietnam War. If you do a little research (and you seem to think Wikipedia is the end all be all, you can easily verify this), you will find that the US bombing campaign in Vietnam absolutely dwarfed the bombing campaign over Germany during WWII. In point of fact, you can check the raw tonnage of bombs dropped during Operation Linebacker II in 1972 (the Hanoi and Haiphong Harbor campaign) and compare that to ALL the bombs dropped during WWII. So, if Clinton dropped more raw tonnage since the Vietnam War, and the Vietnam War exceeded WWII by a huge margin, well, quad erat demonstratum Bunkie.

SNIP

[/quote]

1. Allan originally said: Operation Desert Fox was part of an on-going Clinton Administration program that included sanctions, enforcement of the No-Fly Zone, as well as direct military intervention in Iraq.

Now read what you said: “an on-going Clinton Administration program that included sanctions,” That sure as hells sounds like you are saying that CLintin instituted the sanctions, does it not. Again, it was a UN sanction.

2. Allan originally said:Clinton’s sanctions were estimated to have killed 500,000 according to Amnesty International.

Again, you are lying. They were NOT Clinton’s sanctions. They were enacted by UN and Bush1. That the UN resolution was still in effect under Clinton is not relevant.
And the estimated death toll of sanctions is in dispute.

3. Allan said: So, if Clinton dropped more raw tonnage since the Vietnam War, and the Vietnam War exceeded WWII by a huge margin, well, quad erat demonstratum Bunkie.

Allan, you need to read properly. Even your own chosen source did not say what you claim above. Your own source said “He subjected Iraq (with British help) to the longest sustained bombing campaign since Vietnam”. You have to understand that “longest sutained since” or even “largest sustained since” (your own source did not even use that expression, but ;et us say it is true for the sake of argument) does not mean “larger than”. It would just mean that it was larger than any OTHER bombing campaign that took place after the Vietnam war. And it sure as hell does not make it bigger than Vietnam, nor WW2 bombing tonnage. The logic of you statements is just complwtely wrong.

In summary:

Allan, you can’t even twist your own hand-picked sources into agreeing with you. You need to stop.

And you need to accept that your contorted argument that Obama is worse than McCain because of Obama’s former pastor and a long list of irrelevant things that Clinton DID NOT do is just totally bogus. QED.

[justme]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]justme: Here we go again, huh?

1. I said Clinton enforced the sanctions, and you confirmed this. Again, I never said Clinton instituted them, I simply said he enforced them.

2. The 500,000 number has been used by International Red Cross, Amnesty International, and UN Council for Human Rights. The number may be false, as it is an estimate. However, given that all three of those bodies have cited it at length does give it some credence. And, yes, this happened on Clinton’s watch, so it is directly attributable to him.

3. Raw tonnage of bombs dropped did exceed WWII. I was not using the Counterpunch article regarding the number, I simply said that the article spoke about the tonnage dropped under Clinton was the heaviest since the Vietnam War. If you do a little research (and you seem to think Wikipedia is the end all be all, you can easily verify this), you will find that the US bombing campaign in Vietnam absolutely dwarfed the bombing campaign over Germany during WWII. In point of fact, you can check the raw tonnage of bombs dropped during Operation Linebacker II in 1972 (the Hanoi and Haiphong Harbor campaign) and compare that to ALL the bombs dropped during WWII. So, if Clinton dropped more raw tonnage since the Vietnam War, and the Vietnam War exceeded WWII by a huge margin, well, quad erat demonstratum Bunkie.

SNIP

[/quote]

1. Allan originally said: Operation Desert Fox was part of an on-going Clinton Administration program that included sanctions, enforcement of the No-Fly Zone, as well as direct military intervention in Iraq.

Now read what you said: “an on-going Clinton Administration program that included sanctions,” That sure as hells sounds like you are saying that CLintin instituted the sanctions, does it not. Again, it was a UN sanction.

2. Allan originally said:Clinton’s sanctions were estimated to have killed 500,000 according to Amnesty International.

Again, you are lying. They were NOT Clinton’s sanctions. They were enacted by UN and Bush1. That the UN resolution was still in effect under Clinton is not relevant.
And the estimated death toll of sanctions is in dispute.

3. Allan said: So, if Clinton dropped more raw tonnage since the Vietnam War, and the Vietnam War exceeded WWII by a huge margin, well, quad erat demonstratum Bunkie.

Allan, you need to read properly. Even your own chosen source did not say what you claim above. Your own source said “He subjected Iraq (with British help) to the longest sustained bombing campaign since Vietnam”. You have to understand that “longest sutained since” or even “largest sustained since” (your own source did not even use that expression, but ;et us say it is true for the sake of argument) does not mean “larger than”. It would just mean that it was larger than any OTHER bombing campaign that took place after the Vietnam war. And it sure as hell does not make it bigger than Vietnam, nor WW2 bombing tonnage. The logic of you statements is just complwtely wrong.

In summary:

Allan, you can’t even twist your own hand-picked sources into agreeing with you. You need to stop.

And you need to accept that your contorted argument that Obama is worse than McCain because of Obama’s former pastor and a long list of irrelevant things that Clinton DID NOT do is just totally bogus. QED.

[justme]

Allan from Fallbrook,

1. The sanctions against Iraq were enacted buy the UN security council in 1990 and 1991, again BEFORE Clinton took office. In other words, this happened on the watch of Bush I, and it was a **UN** sanction. So, yeah, attributing it to Clinton is false.

2. The 500,000 number is suspect, and some random article in counterpunch.org is not an authoritative reference on the matter. Check wikipedia for a more complete discussion. They have numbers and real references ranging from 170,000 and up for the 10 year period. Again, this is NOT a Clinton matter. False again.

3. Tonnage of bombs greater than WW2? False. You say the counterpunch article “speaks to” the bombing campaign. Yeah,it mentions the campaign but says nothing about how large it was compared to WW2. So are wrong yet again.

When are you going to stop spreading these lies?

[justme]

Allan from Fallbrook,

1. The sanctions against Iraq were enacted buy the UN security council in 1990 and 1991, again BEFORE Clinton took office. In other words, this happened on the watch of Bush I, and it was a **UN** sanction. So, yeah, attributing it to Clinton is false.

2. The 500,000 number is suspect, and some random article in counterpunch.org is not an authoritative reference on the matter. Check wikipedia for a more complete discussion. They have numbers and real references ranging from 170,000 and up for the 10 year period. Again, this is NOT a Clinton matter. False again.

3. Tonnage of bombs greater than WW2? False. You say the counterpunch article “speaks to” the bombing campaign. Yeah,it mentions the campaign but says nothing about how large it was compared to WW2. So are wrong yet again.

When are you going to stop spreading these lies?

[justme]

Allan from Fallbrook,

1. The sanctions against Iraq were enacted buy the UN security council in 1990 and 1991, again BEFORE Clinton took office. In other words, this happened on the watch of Bush I, and it was a **UN** sanction. So, yeah, attributing it to Clinton is false.

2. The 500,000 number is suspect, and some random article in counterpunch.org is not an authoritative reference on the matter. Check wikipedia for a more complete discussion. They have numbers and real references ranging from 170,000 and up for the 10 year period. Again, this is NOT a Clinton matter. False again.

3. Tonnage of bombs greater than WW2? False. You say the counterpunch article “speaks to” the bombing campaign. Yeah,it mentions the campaign but says nothing about how large it was compared to WW2. So are wrong yet again.

When are you going to stop spreading these lies?

[justme]

Allan from Fallbrook,

1. The sanctions against Iraq were enacted buy the UN security council in 1990 and 1991, again BEFORE Clinton took office. In other words, this happened on the watch of Bush I, and it was a **UN** sanction. So, yeah, attributing it to Clinton is false.

2. The 500,000 number is suspect, and some random article in counterpunch.org is not an authoritative reference on the matter. Check wikipedia for a more complete discussion. They have numbers and real references ranging from 170,000 and up for the 10 year period. Again, this is NOT a Clinton matter. False again.

3. Tonnage of bombs greater than WW2? False. You say the counterpunch article “speaks to” the bombing campaign. Yeah,it mentions the campaign but says nothing about how large it was compared to WW2. So are wrong yet again.

When are you going to stop spreading these lies?

[justme]

Allan from Fallbrook,

1. The sanctions against Iraq were enacted buy the UN security council in 1990 and 1991, again BEFORE Clinton took office. In other words, this happened on the watch of Bush I, and it was a **UN** sanction. So, yeah, attributing it to Clinton is false.

2. The 500,000 number is suspect, and some random article in counterpunch.org is not an authoritative reference on the matter. Check wikipedia for a more complete discussion. They have numbers and real references ranging from 170,000 and up for the 10 year period. Again, this is NOT a Clinton matter. False again.

3. Tonnage of bombs greater than WW2? False. You say the counterpunch article “speaks to” the bombing campaign. Yeah,it mentions the campaign but says nothing about how large it was compared to WW2. So are wrong yet again.

When are you going to stop spreading these lies?

[justme]

Here’s a litte summary for y’all:

AFF: Obama associated with a priest that said “God Damns America”, he is
bad and should not be elected.

Justme: McCain associates with Bush II, a known killer, liar and neocon
warmonger. Perhaps NcCain is the one that is bad and should not be
elected.

AFF: Oh yeah? Clinton dropped more bombs than US did in all of WW2
(false), Clinton was more interventionist than Bush II (false), Clinton
spent more American blood and treasure than Bush (false), No-Fly zones
was a Clinton program (false), Clinton killed 500,000 Iraqs through UN
sanctions (false), I know about war (don’t we all), I was in Vietnam
(very well), so there (yeah, some if these statements MIGHT be very
vaguely relevant to Obama if only they were TRUE).

Justme: Is AFF for real? Can he stick to the topic? Why does he make so
many false statements? Why does he try to derail the discussion by
setting up Bill Clinton as a strawman? Can one trust AFFs judgement on
anything about Obama? (or anything at all for that sake?).

[justme]

Here’s a litte summary for y’all:

AFF: Obama associated with a priest that said “God Damns America”, he is
bad and should not be elected.

Justme: McCain associates with Bush II, a known killer, liar and neocon
warmonger. Perhaps NcCain is the one that is bad and should not be
elected.

AFF: Oh yeah? Clinton dropped more bombs than US did in all of WW2
(false), Clinton was more interventionist than Bush II (false), Clinton
spent more American blood and treasure than Bush (false), No-Fly zones
was a Clinton program (false), Clinton killed 500,000 Iraqs through UN
sanctions (false), I know about war (don’t we all), I was in Vietnam
(very well), so there (yeah, some if these statements MIGHT be very
vaguely relevant to Obama if only they were TRUE).

Justme: Is AFF for real? Can he stick to the topic? Why does he make so
many false statements? Why does he try to derail the discussion by
setting up Bill Clinton as a strawman? Can one trust AFFs judgement on
anything about Obama? (or anything at all for that sake?).

[justme]

Here’s a litte summary for y’all:

AFF: Obama associated with a priest that said “God Damns America”, he is
bad and should not be elected.

Justme: McCain associates with Bush II, a known killer, liar and neocon
warmonger. Perhaps NcCain is the one that is bad and should not be
elected.

AFF: Oh yeah? Clinton dropped more bombs than US did in all of WW2
(false), Clinton was more interventionist than Bush II (false), Clinton
spent more American blood and treasure than Bush (false), No-Fly zones
was a Clinton program (false), Clinton killed 500,000 Iraqs through UN
sanctions (false), I know about war (don’t we all), I was in Vietnam
(very well), so there (yeah, some if these statements MIGHT be very
vaguely relevant to Obama if only they were TRUE).

Justme: Is AFF for real? Can he stick to the topic? Why does he make so
many false statements? Why does he try to derail the discussion by
setting up Bill Clinton as a strawman? Can one trust AFFs judgement on
anything about Obama? (or anything at all for that sake?).

[justme]

Here’s a litte summary for y’all:

AFF: Obama associated with a priest that said “God Damns America”, he is
bad and should not be elected.

Justme: McCain associates with Bush II, a known killer, liar and neocon
warmonger. Perhaps NcCain is the one that is bad and should not be
elected.

AFF: Oh yeah? Clinton dropped more bombs than US did in all of WW2
(false), Clinton was more interventionist than Bush II (false), Clinton
spent more American blood and treasure than Bush (false), No-Fly zones
was a Clinton program (false), Clinton killed 500,000 Iraqs through UN
sanctions (false), I know about war (don’t we all), I was in Vietnam
(very well), so there (yeah, some if these statements MIGHT be very
vaguely relevant to Obama if only they were TRUE).

Justme: Is AFF for real? Can he stick to the topic? Why does he make so
many false statements? Why does he try to derail the discussion by
setting up Bill Clinton as a strawman? Can one trust AFFs judgement on
anything about Obama? (or anything at all for that sake?).

[Author]

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