[eavesdropper]

[quote=sdduuuude]I tell people that my path through college was the right one – go to a big, cheap state school with a half-decent program in your area of interest. If you go to grad school, pay the big bucks and go to a top school. This way only 1/3 of your education is expensive and you still get the big-name school on the resume, and you get the better education when you are more mature and actually interested in learning something.[/quote]

Dude, your advice is absolutely spot-on!! Parents practically bankrupt themselves to send their kids to superexpensive undergrad schools. As is often the case, kids either screw off academically, or change majors because they can’t keep up with the demands, and the end result of this huge monetary investment is a kid with a degree in 18th-Century Canadian Literature or The History of Dance, and a transcript with lots of Ws, and a mixed bag of unrelated courses, half of which carry C and D grades.

If you ask the parents why they are sending their kids to I-Got-the-Bucks University, they’ll tell you they’re trying to give their child the best competitive edge in their future careers. If you ask what it is about this particular school that guarantees them this “edge”, 95% of the time they’ll tell you that it was in the top 10 of some bogus chart published by US News and World Report. The other 5% will offer up some marketing gem straight from the pages of the college website.

As I mentioned above, if your kid is going to pursue a career in R&D in the sciences that is anything beyond lab tech level, postgraduate education is a given. And that’s what’s going to count when they get into the career field. Any good state college or university should be able to give a student the foundation they need to get into grad school and handle the extreme work load there. Not only will it be much cheaper, it will probably be a far less competitive and less pressured atmosphere for the student, giving him a better chance to earn good grades and to really think about whether their major will result in the type of lifetime career they really want.

And, as also mentioned previously, many institutions give stipends to their science grad students that completely cover their tuition (sometimes more) in return for the teaching and lab duties the students are expected to handle.

[quote=sdduuuude] Make sure they can handle at least pre-calculus in high-school. Math should be easy for them. If not, it’s off to business school.[/quote]

Will you freakin’ science and engineer types please shove your “People who excel in math become scientists and engineers; the people who can’t handle math get on the short bus to B-school” stereotypes where the sun don’t shine?! Admittedly, it’s been a very long time, but I can recall having some fairly stringent math adventures in some of my more advanced finance, econ, and statistics courses (fortunately, electroshock therapy has erased the nightmare memories of those happy times). And calculus was required.

Keep in mind that many undergrad professors at the time would not permit the use of calculators (not that we poor students could begin to afford the relatively simple models available).

I do realize that the undergrad business curriculum has expanded, and that college courses at many institutions have been “dumbed down” (which probably explains the state of today’s businesses and financial institutions). But I am still very sensitive to remarks that allude to mathematically-clueless business curriculum students. I’m married to a Ph.D.-level chemist, so that could explain a lot of my antagonism on the subject.

[quote=sdduuuude] And please, for god’s sake, make your little engineers take economics.[/quote]

You’re a god, sdduuuude!! I agree wholeheartedly! In fact, it should be a requirement of both engineering and science curricula, IMHO.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=sdduuuude]I tell people that my path through college was the right one – go to a big, cheap state school with a half-decent program in your area of interest. If you go to grad school, pay the big bucks and go to a top school. This way only 1/3 of your education is expensive and you still get the big-name school on the resume, and you get the better education when you are more mature and actually interested in learning something.[/quote]

Dude, your advice is absolutely spot-on!! Parents practically bankrupt themselves to send their kids to superexpensive undergrad schools. As is often the case, kids either screw off academically, or change majors because they can’t keep up with the demands, and the end result of this huge monetary investment is a kid with a degree in 18th-Century Canadian Literature or The History of Dance, and a transcript with lots of Ws, and a mixed bag of unrelated courses, half of which carry C and D grades.

If you ask the parents why they are sending their kids to I-Got-the-Bucks University, they’ll tell you they’re trying to give their child the best competitive edge in their future careers. If you ask what it is about this particular school that guarantees them this “edge”, 95% of the time they’ll tell you that it was in the top 10 of some bogus chart published by US News and World Report. The other 5% will offer up some marketing gem straight from the pages of the college website.

As I mentioned above, if your kid is going to pursue a career in R&D in the sciences that is anything beyond lab tech level, postgraduate education is a given. And that’s what’s going to count when they get into the career field. Any good state college or university should be able to give a student the foundation they need to get into grad school and handle the extreme work load there. Not only will it be much cheaper, it will probably be a far less competitive and less pressured atmosphere for the student, giving him a better chance to earn good grades and to really think about whether their major will result in the type of lifetime career they really want.

And, as also mentioned previously, many institutions give stipends to their science grad students that completely cover their tuition (sometimes more) in return for the teaching and lab duties the students are expected to handle.

[quote=sdduuuude] Make sure they can handle at least pre-calculus in high-school. Math should be easy for them. If not, it’s off to business school.[/quote]

Will you freakin’ science and engineer types please shove your “People who excel in math become scientists and engineers; the people who can’t handle math get on the short bus to B-school” stereotypes where the sun don’t shine?! Admittedly, it’s been a very long time, but I can recall having some fairly stringent math adventures in some of my more advanced finance, econ, and statistics courses (fortunately, electroshock therapy has erased the nightmare memories of those happy times). And calculus was required.

Keep in mind that many undergrad professors at the time would not permit the use of calculators (not that we poor students could begin to afford the relatively simple models available).

I do realize that the undergrad business curriculum has expanded, and that college courses at many institutions have been “dumbed down” (which probably explains the state of today’s businesses and financial institutions). But I am still very sensitive to remarks that allude to mathematically-clueless business curriculum students. I’m married to a Ph.D.-level chemist, so that could explain a lot of my antagonism on the subject.

[quote=sdduuuude] And please, for god’s sake, make your little engineers take economics.[/quote]

You’re a god, sdduuuude!! I agree wholeheartedly! In fact, it should be a requirement of both engineering and science curricula, IMHO.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=AN]BTW, you mentioned Chem and Physics but you didn’t mention Calculus/Pre-Calc or Bio. How did he do in those?[/quote]

AN makes an *excellent* point, scaredy. Your kid’s got to have the complete package to get into a good university program in any science or engineering-related major.

If your son does manage to zero in on a field that interests him, check out the HS courses that are required for admission. Don’t know what grade he’s in, but make sure he takes the entire math-science-language curriculum laid out for HS students headed for science/engineering undergrad, following the recommended schedule.

Also, if your kid does get excited about a particular career, have him look at the 4-year undergrad course schedule so that he clearly understands the demands. Many times, students are floored by the type, number, and difficulty of required courses for a particular major (e.g., kids that are “C.S.I.” fans/forensic criminology hopefuls are often shocked to learn of the 4 or 5 required chem courses, along with several others in biology, genetics, physics, and anthropology), and they end up dropping the major, having given no thought to a back-up career choice. All they have to show for their time (and parents’ money) is a permanent transcript sporting an abundance of Ds, Fs, or Ws.

If your child has a genuine interest in science, but doesn’t always appear be the most motivated student, or isn’t earning the excellent grades that some of his “science superhero” classmates are, DON’T assume that he can’t have a career in the sciences or in engineering. As I mentioned earlier, he can attend a good-quality community college for many of his introductory English, mathematics, and science courses and, for 2 years, work on building up his academic record. A good CC will have a reciprocity agreement with your state university system (be sure to check this out ahead prior to enrollment), which pretty much means that the CC’s course is very closely aligned with that of the state university. If he meets the admission requirements for a particular state university degree program, they have to apply his CC credits toward the degree. This scenario will give your kid a chance to develop the discipline required for an academic and professional career in the science/engineering fields, at a fraction of the cost, and definitely increase his chances for success.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=AN]BTW, you mentioned Chem and Physics but you didn’t mention Calculus/Pre-Calc or Bio. How did he do in those?[/quote]

AN makes an *excellent* point, scaredy. Your kid’s got to have the complete package to get into a good university program in any science or engineering-related major.

If your son does manage to zero in on a field that interests him, check out the HS courses that are required for admission. Don’t know what grade he’s in, but make sure he takes the entire math-science-language curriculum laid out for HS students headed for science/engineering undergrad, following the recommended schedule.

Also, if your kid does get excited about a particular career, have him look at the 4-year undergrad course schedule so that he clearly understands the demands. Many times, students are floored by the type, number, and difficulty of required courses for a particular major (e.g., kids that are “C.S.I.” fans/forensic criminology hopefuls are often shocked to learn of the 4 or 5 required chem courses, along with several others in biology, genetics, physics, and anthropology), and they end up dropping the major, having given no thought to a back-up career choice. All they have to show for their time (and parents’ money) is a permanent transcript sporting an abundance of Ds, Fs, or Ws.

If your child has a genuine interest in science, but doesn’t always appear be the most motivated student, or isn’t earning the excellent grades that some of his “science superhero” classmates are, DON’T assume that he can’t have a career in the sciences or in engineering. As I mentioned earlier, he can attend a good-quality community college for many of his introductory English, mathematics, and science courses and, for 2 years, work on building up his academic record. A good CC will have a reciprocity agreement with your state university system (be sure to check this out ahead prior to enrollment), which pretty much means that the CC’s course is very closely aligned with that of the state university. If he meets the admission requirements for a particular state university degree program, they have to apply his CC credits toward the degree. This scenario will give your kid a chance to develop the discipline required for an academic and professional career in the science/engineering fields, at a fraction of the cost, and definitely increase his chances for success.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=AN]BTW, you mentioned Chem and Physics but you didn’t mention Calculus/Pre-Calc or Bio. How did he do in those?[/quote]

AN makes an *excellent* point, scaredy. Your kid’s got to have the complete package to get into a good university program in any science or engineering-related major.

If your son does manage to zero in on a field that interests him, check out the HS courses that are required for admission. Don’t know what grade he’s in, but make sure he takes the entire math-science-language curriculum laid out for HS students headed for science/engineering undergrad, following the recommended schedule.

Also, if your kid does get excited about a particular career, have him look at the 4-year undergrad course schedule so that he clearly understands the demands. Many times, students are floored by the type, number, and difficulty of required courses for a particular major (e.g., kids that are “C.S.I.” fans/forensic criminology hopefuls are often shocked to learn of the 4 or 5 required chem courses, along with several others in biology, genetics, physics, and anthropology), and they end up dropping the major, having given no thought to a back-up career choice. All they have to show for their time (and parents’ money) is a permanent transcript sporting an abundance of Ds, Fs, or Ws.

If your child has a genuine interest in science, but doesn’t always appear be the most motivated student, or isn’t earning the excellent grades that some of his “science superhero” classmates are, DON’T assume that he can’t have a career in the sciences or in engineering. As I mentioned earlier, he can attend a good-quality community college for many of his introductory English, mathematics, and science courses and, for 2 years, work on building up his academic record. A good CC will have a reciprocity agreement with your state university system (be sure to check this out ahead prior to enrollment), which pretty much means that the CC’s course is very closely aligned with that of the state university. If he meets the admission requirements for a particular state university degree program, they have to apply his CC credits toward the degree. This scenario will give your kid a chance to develop the discipline required for an academic and professional career in the science/engineering fields, at a fraction of the cost, and definitely increase his chances for success.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=AN]BTW, you mentioned Chem and Physics but you didn’t mention Calculus/Pre-Calc or Bio. How did he do in those?[/quote]

AN makes an *excellent* point, scaredy. Your kid’s got to have the complete package to get into a good university program in any science or engineering-related major.

If your son does manage to zero in on a field that interests him, check out the HS courses that are required for admission. Don’t know what grade he’s in, but make sure he takes the entire math-science-language curriculum laid out for HS students headed for science/engineering undergrad, following the recommended schedule.

Also, if your kid does get excited about a particular career, have him look at the 4-year undergrad course schedule so that he clearly understands the demands. Many times, students are floored by the type, number, and difficulty of required courses for a particular major (e.g., kids that are “C.S.I.” fans/forensic criminology hopefuls are often shocked to learn of the 4 or 5 required chem courses, along with several others in biology, genetics, physics, and anthropology), and they end up dropping the major, having given no thought to a back-up career choice. All they have to show for their time (and parents’ money) is a permanent transcript sporting an abundance of Ds, Fs, or Ws.

If your child has a genuine interest in science, but doesn’t always appear be the most motivated student, or isn’t earning the excellent grades that some of his “science superhero” classmates are, DON’T assume that he can’t have a career in the sciences or in engineering. As I mentioned earlier, he can attend a good-quality community college for many of his introductory English, mathematics, and science courses and, for 2 years, work on building up his academic record. A good CC will have a reciprocity agreement with your state university system (be sure to check this out ahead prior to enrollment), which pretty much means that the CC’s course is very closely aligned with that of the state university. If he meets the admission requirements for a particular state university degree program, they have to apply his CC credits toward the degree. This scenario will give your kid a chance to develop the discipline required for an academic and professional career in the science/engineering fields, at a fraction of the cost, and definitely increase his chances for success.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=AN]BTW, you mentioned Chem and Physics but you didn’t mention Calculus/Pre-Calc or Bio. How did he do in those?[/quote]

AN makes an *excellent* point, scaredy. Your kid’s got to have the complete package to get into a good university program in any science or engineering-related major.

If your son does manage to zero in on a field that interests him, check out the HS courses that are required for admission. Don’t know what grade he’s in, but make sure he takes the entire math-science-language curriculum laid out for HS students headed for science/engineering undergrad, following the recommended schedule.

Also, if your kid does get excited about a particular career, have him look at the 4-year undergrad course schedule so that he clearly understands the demands. Many times, students are floored by the type, number, and difficulty of required courses for a particular major (e.g., kids that are “C.S.I.” fans/forensic criminology hopefuls are often shocked to learn of the 4 or 5 required chem courses, along with several others in biology, genetics, physics, and anthropology), and they end up dropping the major, having given no thought to a back-up career choice. All they have to show for their time (and parents’ money) is a permanent transcript sporting an abundance of Ds, Fs, or Ws.

If your child has a genuine interest in science, but doesn’t always appear be the most motivated student, or isn’t earning the excellent grades that some of his “science superhero” classmates are, DON’T assume that he can’t have a career in the sciences or in engineering. As I mentioned earlier, he can attend a good-quality community college for many of his introductory English, mathematics, and science courses and, for 2 years, work on building up his academic record. A good CC will have a reciprocity agreement with your state university system (be sure to check this out ahead prior to enrollment), which pretty much means that the CC’s course is very closely aligned with that of the state university. If he meets the admission requirements for a particular state university degree program, they have to apply his CC credits toward the degree. This scenario will give your kid a chance to develop the discipline required for an academic and professional career in the science/engineering fields, at a fraction of the cost, and definitely increase his chances for success.

[eavesdropper]

Also, there are lots of documentaries where your kid could get an idea of what these people really do, and whether the field would interest him. You can get them on Netflix, and some of the professional societies offer them, too.

I’d definitely check out Bioengineering: it’s a very diverse, expansive field, and the stuff that they are doing is incredible. Like sci-fi.

[eavesdropper]

Also, there are lots of documentaries where your kid could get an idea of what these people really do, and whether the field would interest him. You can get them on Netflix, and some of the professional societies offer them, too.

I’d definitely check out Bioengineering: it’s a very diverse, expansive field, and the stuff that they are doing is incredible. Like sci-fi.

[eavesdropper]

Also, there are lots of documentaries where your kid could get an idea of what these people really do, and whether the field would interest him. You can get them on Netflix, and some of the professional societies offer them, too.

I’d definitely check out Bioengineering: it’s a very diverse, expansive field, and the stuff that they are doing is incredible. Like sci-fi.

[eavesdropper]

Also, there are lots of documentaries where your kid could get an idea of what these people really do, and whether the field would interest him. You can get them on Netflix, and some of the professional societies offer them, too.

I’d definitely check out Bioengineering: it’s a very diverse, expansive field, and the stuff that they are doing is incredible. Like sci-fi.

[eavesdropper]

Also, there are lots of documentaries where your kid could get an idea of what these people really do, and whether the field would interest him. You can get them on Netflix, and some of the professional societies offer them, too.

I’d definitely check out Bioengineering: it’s a very diverse, expansive field, and the stuff that they are doing is incredible. Like sci-fi.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=walterwhite]so, if you were a kid starting college interested in science and engineering, is there any particular school or area of study that seems particularly attractive nowadays?[/quote]

With the incredible advances in microbiology and genetics, and the advances in computers and instrumentation over the past 30 years (hey, the baby boomers did some things right), there has never been a more exciting and challenging time for a high school kid to be starting a career in the sciences. Here are some of my recommendations:

* Biomedical engineering (including cellular, tissue, genetic, biomechanical, and biopharmaceutical engineering)
http://www.bmes.org/aws/BMES/pt/sp/about

* Medicine, particularly infectious disease, epidemiology, public health

* Informatics (incl. public health informatics, clinical research informatics, and translational bioinformatics)
–The link below is for the American Medical Informatics Association (AMIA). If you look to the left of the page, you’ll see links to the various areas of informatics.
http://www.amia.org/about-amia/science-informatics

Below is the website for The Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology (FASEB), which is kind of an umbrella advocacy organization for researchers in the biological and biomedical sciences. The link opens to a page of the professional societies they cover; each of those links should be a good place for you and your kid to gather info on possible career choices.
http://www.faseb.org/Who-We-Are/Constituent-Societies.aspx

If your child has worked hard and has very impressive academic records and SAT results, and money is not a huge problem, have him/her apply to Ivy League or private schools that have strong science reps (e.g., Duke, Johns Hopkins, Stanford). He can probably earn scholarships, and many of these schools are well-endowed and provide a LOT of aid.

If money is a problem, there are many very fine state schools with great science programs (Univ. of Michigan, Ohio State, UNC-Chapel Hill, UCLA, UC Berkley). Very competitive, so grades/record will have to be excellent.

If both money and grades are a problem, try a wide range of state schools, or else send him to a GOOD community college for two years to get the grades up. Keep in mind that, in many of these jobs, postgrad education is a virtual certainty. So there is time to get those grades up after high school if necessary. Plenty of mediocre H.S. students end up in Ivys for their graduate science studies. Also, many graduate science programs carry stipends for teaching that can cover tuition and room/board. So look for schools/career choices that are more likely to offer that.

If your child is not fluent in at least one foreign language (or even if he/she is), I’d recommend language courses in all four years (in all 8 semesters, if possible). Think about the possibility of Chinese. I may get my ass kicked by some, but more and more of the significant research is done overseas, in Europe and in Asia. While our esteemed all-wise congress has sweated over creating a favorable atmosphere for corporations, they’ve basically told science to go to hell by slashing budget after budget for research and education assistance, and by “reforming” education with programs like “No Student Left Behind” that teach students to pass nonchallenging standardized tests rather than teaching them to think. Unless there is a drastic and immediate change in attitude by our congress and our political “leaders”, your child will have to seek a postgraduate job overseas.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=walterwhite]so, if you were a kid starting college interested in science and engineering, is there any particular school or area of study that seems particularly attractive nowadays?[/quote]

With the incredible advances in microbiology and genetics, and the advances in computers and instrumentation over the past 30 years (hey, the baby boomers did some things right), there has never been a more exciting and challenging time for a high school kid to be starting a career in the sciences. Here are some of my recommendations:

* Biomedical engineering (including cellular, tissue, genetic, biomechanical, and biopharmaceutical engineering)
http://www.bmes.org/aws/BMES/pt/sp/about

* Medicine, particularly infectious disease, epidemiology, public health

* Informatics (incl. public health informatics, clinical research informatics, and translational bioinformatics)
–The link below is for the American Medical Informatics Association (AMIA). If you look to the left of the page, you’ll see links to the various areas of informatics.
http://www.amia.org/about-amia/science-informatics

Below is the website for The Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology (FASEB), which is kind of an umbrella advocacy organization for researchers in the biological and biomedical sciences. The link opens to a page of the professional societies they cover; each of those links should be a good place for you and your kid to gather info on possible career choices.
http://www.faseb.org/Who-We-Are/Constituent-Societies.aspx

If your child has worked hard and has very impressive academic records and SAT results, and money is not a huge problem, have him/her apply to Ivy League or private schools that have strong science reps (e.g., Duke, Johns Hopkins, Stanford). He can probably earn scholarships, and many of these schools are well-endowed and provide a LOT of aid.

If money is a problem, there are many very fine state schools with great science programs (Univ. of Michigan, Ohio State, UNC-Chapel Hill, UCLA, UC Berkley). Very competitive, so grades/record will have to be excellent.

If both money and grades are a problem, try a wide range of state schools, or else send him to a GOOD community college for two years to get the grades up. Keep in mind that, in many of these jobs, postgrad education is a virtual certainty. So there is time to get those grades up after high school if necessary. Plenty of mediocre H.S. students end up in Ivys for their graduate science studies. Also, many graduate science programs carry stipends for teaching that can cover tuition and room/board. So look for schools/career choices that are more likely to offer that.

If your child is not fluent in at least one foreign language (or even if he/she is), I’d recommend language courses in all four years (in all 8 semesters, if possible). Think about the possibility of Chinese. I may get my ass kicked by some, but more and more of the significant research is done overseas, in Europe and in Asia. While our esteemed all-wise congress has sweated over creating a favorable atmosphere for corporations, they’ve basically told science to go to hell by slashing budget after budget for research and education assistance, and by “reforming” education with programs like “No Student Left Behind” that teach students to pass nonchallenging standardized tests rather than teaching them to think. Unless there is a drastic and immediate change in attitude by our congress and our political “leaders”, your child will have to seek a postgraduate job overseas.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=walterwhite]so, if you were a kid starting college interested in science and engineering, is there any particular school or area of study that seems particularly attractive nowadays?[/quote]

With the incredible advances in microbiology and genetics, and the advances in computers and instrumentation over the past 30 years (hey, the baby boomers did some things right), there has never been a more exciting and challenging time for a high school kid to be starting a career in the sciences. Here are some of my recommendations:

* Biomedical engineering (including cellular, tissue, genetic, biomechanical, and biopharmaceutical engineering)
http://www.bmes.org/aws/BMES/pt/sp/about

* Medicine, particularly infectious disease, epidemiology, public health

* Informatics (incl. public health informatics, clinical research informatics, and translational bioinformatics)
–The link below is for the American Medical Informatics Association (AMIA). If you look to the left of the page, you’ll see links to the various areas of informatics.
http://www.amia.org/about-amia/science-informatics

Below is the website for The Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology (FASEB), which is kind of an umbrella advocacy organization for researchers in the biological and biomedical sciences. The link opens to a page of the professional societies they cover; each of those links should be a good place for you and your kid to gather info on possible career choices.
http://www.faseb.org/Who-We-Are/Constituent-Societies.aspx

If your child has worked hard and has very impressive academic records and SAT results, and money is not a huge problem, have him/her apply to Ivy League or private schools that have strong science reps (e.g., Duke, Johns Hopkins, Stanford). He can probably earn scholarships, and many of these schools are well-endowed and provide a LOT of aid.

If money is a problem, there are many very fine state schools with great science programs (Univ. of Michigan, Ohio State, UNC-Chapel Hill, UCLA, UC Berkley). Very competitive, so grades/record will have to be excellent.

If both money and grades are a problem, try a wide range of state schools, or else send him to a GOOD community college for two years to get the grades up. Keep in mind that, in many of these jobs, postgrad education is a virtual certainty. So there is time to get those grades up after high school if necessary. Plenty of mediocre H.S. students end up in Ivys for their graduate science studies. Also, many graduate science programs carry stipends for teaching that can cover tuition and room/board. So look for schools/career choices that are more likely to offer that.

If your child is not fluent in at least one foreign language (or even if he/she is), I’d recommend language courses in all four years (in all 8 semesters, if possible). Think about the possibility of Chinese. I may get my ass kicked by some, but more and more of the significant research is done overseas, in Europe and in Asia. While our esteemed all-wise congress has sweated over creating a favorable atmosphere for corporations, they’ve basically told science to go to hell by slashing budget after budget for research and education assistance, and by “reforming” education with programs like “No Student Left Behind” that teach students to pass nonchallenging standardized tests rather than teaching them to think. Unless there is a drastic and immediate change in attitude by our congress and our political “leaders”, your child will have to seek a postgraduate job overseas.

[Author]

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