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August 8, 2011 at 7:43 PM in reply to: OK, we are down graded: AA+ (Still a long way from F+ guys) #717181August 8, 2011 at 7:43 PM in reply to: OK, we are down graded: AA+ (Still a long way from F+ guys) #717537
eavesdropper
Participant[quote=afx114]I’m not an economist, so maybe one can explain to me. If the S&P downgrade was such a big deal, why are people still pouring money into US Treasuries, driving it down to very low rates? Is it because the US is still the least worst of many worster options? (Yes, I just said ‘worster’).[/quote]
It’s okay, afx114. The financial crisis has been going on or some time, and the rabid press corps who are covering it for those of us “who don’t understand business” (yes, another priceless Rick Santelli moment on CNBC this morning) are desperate for new adjectives. Word is that they’re offering big bucks for novel descriptive prose that will produce panic in their viewers, and incite them into looting their local Super WalMart stores.
I’m thinking “worster” says it all. In fact, I’m getting my flame thrower out of my kids’ old toy box as we speak…..
As for the reasoning behind the brisk business in U.S. Treasuries? S & P planned it that way, naturally.
Participant[quote=briansd1][quote=eavesdropper]
We really don’t have a two-party (Republican-Democrat) Congress anymore. What we have is a two-goal Congress. It’s those that want to be elected to Congress in perpetuity versus those who want to work hard, compromising with others, to address the problems that threaten our very existence as a nation. Unfortunately, the latter group is far outnumbered by the first. If this country’s citizenry do not stop taking their direction from ill-informed bloggers, hate-filled media personalities, and plastic empty-headed power-hungry politicians, and make the time to research the truth on their own, they will lose the right to do so.[/quote]I agree eavesdropper.
As you’ve said before, we need to bring back the smart people and elect politicians who will listen to the experts who spend whole careers studying the issues.
In the mean time, how do we get rid of the “ill-informed bloggers, hate-filled media personalities, and plastic empty-headed power-hungry politicians?”
You’ve mentioned Elizabeth Warren before. How we get more people like her appointed to influential positions and running for elected office?[/quote]
Brian, until people stop tossing off bumper sticker slogans like “Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps”, without really thinking about what they mean, and, more important, whether they can say that their own life reflects that slogan, nothing will change. But that takes hard work and honest unflinching introspection, two things that often go against human nature.
Now, in my humble opinion, few things in life are worth more than having the ability to live, and raise your family, in a country where you feel safe. One in which you can advance to the level of your study, hard work, and sacrifice. Where you can freely express your agreement or dissent with the statement of others, including government officials, without fear of being imprisoned or summarily executed. Where you do not worry about feeding your child with produce or meat you did not raise, or water you didn’t test and treat, because government regulations are drafted AND enforced to ensure their safety.
That is what we have here in the U.S., despite claims that are wildly distorted or are flat-out dishonest. The claims are made in an attempt to build up political influence and capital, and are directed at and wildly successful with, small-minded individuals who believe they have been cheated or damaged in some way. These individuals build up their arsenal of misinformation, and any attempt to disprove them is met by an accusation of “traitor” or “unpatriotic”.
Truth can only be found by those searching for it. By that definition, one is sure to come upon evidence that has the potential to disprove core beliefs. Therefore, being fully aware of this, yet forging on in a search for evidence of truth is a difficult task, and one that requires courage, and is not possible for the weak or faint-hearted.
The majority of people will opt for the easy way out, and instead search for “evidence” that is actually opinion of others that aligns with their own beliefs. With the development of the internet, and its availability to virtually every person in every area of the U.S., it has become very easy to find individuals and groups who are sympathetic to your views and values, no matter how extreme.
Unfortunately, excessive and inappropriate use of the internet has fostered an atmosphere of intense polarization in the U.S. Statements and reactions that once horrified most people are now greeted with a shrug. The stakes are continually raised, and an atmosphere of cooperation and compromise has been sacrificed, all the way to the halls and chambers of Congress.
People view immaturity and stubbornness as “courage” and “toughness”. We’re a society in which you no longer are forced to personally confront someone with whom you don’t agree, a situation that many see as doing away with a need for cooperation and compromise. In reality, there has never been a greater need for these qualities. In a world where you can destroy a person’s marriage, career, self-confidence, or even childhood innocence with a few keyboard strokes, it doesn’t take a lot of effort to create doubt or envy or hatred or paranoia in a susceptible populace.
Until people make a determined effort to educate themselves and resist the influence of others over their own self-confidence, no change is possible.
Participant[quote=briansd1][quote=eavesdropper]
We really don’t have a two-party (Republican-Democrat) Congress anymore. What we have is a two-goal Congress. It’s those that want to be elected to Congress in perpetuity versus those who want to work hard, compromising with others, to address the problems that threaten our very existence as a nation. Unfortunately, the latter group is far outnumbered by the first. If this country’s citizenry do not stop taking their direction from ill-informed bloggers, hate-filled media personalities, and plastic empty-headed power-hungry politicians, and make the time to research the truth on their own, they will lose the right to do so.[/quote]I agree eavesdropper.
As you’ve said before, we need to bring back the smart people and elect politicians who will listen to the experts who spend whole careers studying the issues.
In the mean time, how do we get rid of the “ill-informed bloggers, hate-filled media personalities, and plastic empty-headed power-hungry politicians?”
You’ve mentioned Elizabeth Warren before. How we get more people like her appointed to influential positions and running for elected office?[/quote]
Brian, until people stop tossing off bumper sticker slogans like “Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps”, without really thinking about what they mean, and, more important, whether they can say that their own life reflects that slogan, nothing will change. But that takes hard work and honest unflinching introspection, two things that often go against human nature.
Now, in my humble opinion, few things in life are worth more than having the ability to live, and raise your family, in a country where you feel safe. One in which you can advance to the level of your study, hard work, and sacrifice. Where you can freely express your agreement or dissent with the statement of others, including government officials, without fear of being imprisoned or summarily executed. Where you do not worry about feeding your child with produce or meat you did not raise, or water you didn’t test and treat, because government regulations are drafted AND enforced to ensure their safety.
That is what we have here in the U.S., despite claims that are wildly distorted or are flat-out dishonest. The claims are made in an attempt to build up political influence and capital, and are directed at and wildly successful with, small-minded individuals who believe they have been cheated or damaged in some way. These individuals build up their arsenal of misinformation, and any attempt to disprove them is met by an accusation of “traitor” or “unpatriotic”.
Truth can only be found by those searching for it. By that definition, one is sure to come upon evidence that has the potential to disprove core beliefs. Therefore, being fully aware of this, yet forging on in a search for evidence of truth is a difficult task, and one that requires courage, and is not possible for the weak or faint-hearted.
The majority of people will opt for the easy way out, and instead search for “evidence” that is actually opinion of others that aligns with their own beliefs. With the development of the internet, and its availability to virtually every person in every area of the U.S., it has become very easy to find individuals and groups who are sympathetic to your views and values, no matter how extreme.
Unfortunately, excessive and inappropriate use of the internet has fostered an atmosphere of intense polarization in the U.S. Statements and reactions that once horrified most people are now greeted with a shrug. The stakes are continually raised, and an atmosphere of cooperation and compromise has been sacrificed, all the way to the halls and chambers of Congress.
People view immaturity and stubbornness as “courage” and “toughness”. We’re a society in which you no longer are forced to personally confront someone with whom you don’t agree, a situation that many see as doing away with a need for cooperation and compromise. In reality, there has never been a greater need for these qualities. In a world where you can destroy a person’s marriage, career, self-confidence, or even childhood innocence with a few keyboard strokes, it doesn’t take a lot of effort to create doubt or envy or hatred or paranoia in a susceptible populace.
Until people make a determined effort to educate themselves and resist the influence of others over their own self-confidence, no change is possible.
Participant[quote=briansd1][quote=eavesdropper]
We really don’t have a two-party (Republican-Democrat) Congress anymore. What we have is a two-goal Congress. It’s those that want to be elected to Congress in perpetuity versus those who want to work hard, compromising with others, to address the problems that threaten our very existence as a nation. Unfortunately, the latter group is far outnumbered by the first. If this country’s citizenry do not stop taking their direction from ill-informed bloggers, hate-filled media personalities, and plastic empty-headed power-hungry politicians, and make the time to research the truth on their own, they will lose the right to do so.[/quote]I agree eavesdropper.
As you’ve said before, we need to bring back the smart people and elect politicians who will listen to the experts who spend whole careers studying the issues.
In the mean time, how do we get rid of the “ill-informed bloggers, hate-filled media personalities, and plastic empty-headed power-hungry politicians?”
You’ve mentioned Elizabeth Warren before. How we get more people like her appointed to influential positions and running for elected office?[/quote]
Brian, until people stop tossing off bumper sticker slogans like “Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps”, without really thinking about what they mean, and, more important, whether they can say that their own life reflects that slogan, nothing will change. But that takes hard work and honest unflinching introspection, two things that often go against human nature.
Now, in my humble opinion, few things in life are worth more than having the ability to live, and raise your family, in a country where you feel safe. One in which you can advance to the level of your study, hard work, and sacrifice. Where you can freely express your agreement or dissent with the statement of others, including government officials, without fear of being imprisoned or summarily executed. Where you do not worry about feeding your child with produce or meat you did not raise, or water you didn’t test and treat, because government regulations are drafted AND enforced to ensure their safety.
That is what we have here in the U.S., despite claims that are wildly distorted or are flat-out dishonest. The claims are made in an attempt to build up political influence and capital, and are directed at and wildly successful with, small-minded individuals who believe they have been cheated or damaged in some way. These individuals build up their arsenal of misinformation, and any attempt to disprove them is met by an accusation of “traitor” or “unpatriotic”.
Truth can only be found by those searching for it. By that definition, one is sure to come upon evidence that has the potential to disprove core beliefs. Therefore, being fully aware of this, yet forging on in a search for evidence of truth is a difficult task, and one that requires courage, and is not possible for the weak or faint-hearted.
The majority of people will opt for the easy way out, and instead search for “evidence” that is actually opinion of others that aligns with their own beliefs. With the development of the internet, and its availability to virtually every person in every area of the U.S., it has become very easy to find individuals and groups who are sympathetic to your views and values, no matter how extreme.
Unfortunately, excessive and inappropriate use of the internet has fostered an atmosphere of intense polarization in the U.S. Statements and reactions that once horrified most people are now greeted with a shrug. The stakes are continually raised, and an atmosphere of cooperation and compromise has been sacrificed, all the way to the halls and chambers of Congress.
People view immaturity and stubbornness as “courage” and “toughness”. We’re a society in which you no longer are forced to personally confront someone with whom you don’t agree, a situation that many see as doing away with a need for cooperation and compromise. In reality, there has never been a greater need for these qualities. In a world where you can destroy a person’s marriage, career, self-confidence, or even childhood innocence with a few keyboard strokes, it doesn’t take a lot of effort to create doubt or envy or hatred or paranoia in a susceptible populace.
Until people make a determined effort to educate themselves and resist the influence of others over their own self-confidence, no change is possible.
Participant[quote=briansd1][quote=eavesdropper]
We really don’t have a two-party (Republican-Democrat) Congress anymore. What we have is a two-goal Congress. It’s those that want to be elected to Congress in perpetuity versus those who want to work hard, compromising with others, to address the problems that threaten our very existence as a nation. Unfortunately, the latter group is far outnumbered by the first. If this country’s citizenry do not stop taking their direction from ill-informed bloggers, hate-filled media personalities, and plastic empty-headed power-hungry politicians, and make the time to research the truth on their own, they will lose the right to do so.[/quote]I agree eavesdropper.
As you’ve said before, we need to bring back the smart people and elect politicians who will listen to the experts who spend whole careers studying the issues.
In the mean time, how do we get rid of the “ill-informed bloggers, hate-filled media personalities, and plastic empty-headed power-hungry politicians?”
You’ve mentioned Elizabeth Warren before. How we get more people like her appointed to influential positions and running for elected office?[/quote]
Brian, until people stop tossing off bumper sticker slogans like “Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps”, without really thinking about what they mean, and, more important, whether they can say that their own life reflects that slogan, nothing will change. But that takes hard work and honest unflinching introspection, two things that often go against human nature.
Now, in my humble opinion, few things in life are worth more than having the ability to live, and raise your family, in a country where you feel safe. One in which you can advance to the level of your study, hard work, and sacrifice. Where you can freely express your agreement or dissent with the statement of others, including government officials, without fear of being imprisoned or summarily executed. Where you do not worry about feeding your child with produce or meat you did not raise, or water you didn’t test and treat, because government regulations are drafted AND enforced to ensure their safety.
That is what we have here in the U.S., despite claims that are wildly distorted or are flat-out dishonest. The claims are made in an attempt to build up political influence and capital, and are directed at and wildly successful with, small-minded individuals who believe they have been cheated or damaged in some way. These individuals build up their arsenal of misinformation, and any attempt to disprove them is met by an accusation of “traitor” or “unpatriotic”.
Truth can only be found by those searching for it. By that definition, one is sure to come upon evidence that has the potential to disprove core beliefs. Therefore, being fully aware of this, yet forging on in a search for evidence of truth is a difficult task, and one that requires courage, and is not possible for the weak or faint-hearted.
The majority of people will opt for the easy way out, and instead search for “evidence” that is actually opinion of others that aligns with their own beliefs. With the development of the internet, and its availability to virtually every person in every area of the U.S., it has become very easy to find individuals and groups who are sympathetic to your views and values, no matter how extreme.
Unfortunately, excessive and inappropriate use of the internet has fostered an atmosphere of intense polarization in the U.S. Statements and reactions that once horrified most people are now greeted with a shrug. The stakes are continually raised, and an atmosphere of cooperation and compromise has been sacrificed, all the way to the halls and chambers of Congress.
People view immaturity and stubbornness as “courage” and “toughness”. We’re a society in which you no longer are forced to personally confront someone with whom you don’t agree, a situation that many see as doing away with a need for cooperation and compromise. In reality, there has never been a greater need for these qualities. In a world where you can destroy a person’s marriage, career, self-confidence, or even childhood innocence with a few keyboard strokes, it doesn’t take a lot of effort to create doubt or envy or hatred or paranoia in a susceptible populace.
Until people make a determined effort to educate themselves and resist the influence of others over their own self-confidence, no change is possible.
Participant[quote=briansd1][quote=eavesdropper]
We really don’t have a two-party (Republican-Democrat) Congress anymore. What we have is a two-goal Congress. It’s those that want to be elected to Congress in perpetuity versus those who want to work hard, compromising with others, to address the problems that threaten our very existence as a nation. Unfortunately, the latter group is far outnumbered by the first. If this country’s citizenry do not stop taking their direction from ill-informed bloggers, hate-filled media personalities, and plastic empty-headed power-hungry politicians, and make the time to research the truth on their own, they will lose the right to do so.[/quote]I agree eavesdropper.
As you’ve said before, we need to bring back the smart people and elect politicians who will listen to the experts who spend whole careers studying the issues.
In the mean time, how do we get rid of the “ill-informed bloggers, hate-filled media personalities, and plastic empty-headed power-hungry politicians?”
You’ve mentioned Elizabeth Warren before. How we get more people like her appointed to influential positions and running for elected office?[/quote]
Brian, until people stop tossing off bumper sticker slogans like “Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps”, without really thinking about what they mean, and, more important, whether they can say that their own life reflects that slogan, nothing will change. But that takes hard work and honest unflinching introspection, two things that often go against human nature.
Now, in my humble opinion, few things in life are worth more than having the ability to live, and raise your family, in a country where you feel safe. One in which you can advance to the level of your study, hard work, and sacrifice. Where you can freely express your agreement or dissent with the statement of others, including government officials, without fear of being imprisoned or summarily executed. Where you do not worry about feeding your child with produce or meat you did not raise, or water you didn’t test and treat, because government regulations are drafted AND enforced to ensure their safety.
That is what we have here in the U.S., despite claims that are wildly distorted or are flat-out dishonest. The claims are made in an attempt to build up political influence and capital, and are directed at and wildly successful with, small-minded individuals who believe they have been cheated or damaged in some way. These individuals build up their arsenal of misinformation, and any attempt to disprove them is met by an accusation of “traitor” or “unpatriotic”.
Truth can only be found by those searching for it. By that definition, one is sure to come upon evidence that has the potential to disprove core beliefs. Therefore, being fully aware of this, yet forging on in a search for evidence of truth is a difficult task, and one that requires courage, and is not possible for the weak or faint-hearted.
The majority of people will opt for the easy way out, and instead search for “evidence” that is actually opinion of others that aligns with their own beliefs. With the development of the internet, and its availability to virtually every person in every area of the U.S., it has become very easy to find individuals and groups who are sympathetic to your views and values, no matter how extreme.
Unfortunately, excessive and inappropriate use of the internet has fostered an atmosphere of intense polarization in the U.S. Statements and reactions that once horrified most people are now greeted with a shrug. The stakes are continually raised, and an atmosphere of cooperation and compromise has been sacrificed, all the way to the halls and chambers of Congress.
People view immaturity and stubbornness as “courage” and “toughness”. We’re a society in which you no longer are forced to personally confront someone with whom you don’t agree, a situation that many see as doing away with a need for cooperation and compromise. In reality, there has never been a greater need for these qualities. In a world where you can destroy a person’s marriage, career, self-confidence, or even childhood innocence with a few keyboard strokes, it doesn’t take a lot of effort to create doubt or envy or hatred or paranoia in a susceptible populace.
Until people make a determined effort to educate themselves and resist the influence of others over their own self-confidence, no change is possible.
Participant[quote=jstoesz]I resent the title of this post. It is beyond stupid to lay the blame of the downgrade on the tea party. Now you could easily call it the repub/dem downgrade.[/quote]
I call it what it is: “The S & P Downgrade”. A decision made by a company with, as far as I’m concerned, no credibility. And a decision made with NO concern for their investor clients, as they’ve tried to claim. And a decision made with what was apparently a total lack of even superficially critical thought.
However, S & P is entitled to make its own decisions, and act upon them. The issue I have is with those who are trusting the experience and intellectual capital that is supposedly behind the decision to downgrade. After the mortgage bond ratings debacle, why would ANYONE trust in the abilities of S & P? Their actions (along with other ratings agencies) were a key factor in a financial meltdown that brought the financial system of the United States (and many other nations as well) to its knees.
The fact that greed was the motivating factor in S & P’s decision to award AAA+ ratings to junk mortgage bonds should have been a trigger for mass customer defection, putting them out of business. After all, when the product you are selling is expertise as verified by client trust, and you intentionally and single-mindedly decide to violate that trust, what do you have left to sell? But S & P’s inability to predict the disastrous fallout of its decision to assure its clients of the safety of the mortgage bonds demonstrated that, with or without a moral compass, they lacked the basic intelligence desirable in a company that sells investment advice.
No, I blame S & P for making the decision to downgrade, but that was their prerogative. However, I have a major issue with all the idiots out there who, despite clear cut evidence to the contrary, still obviously see S & P as a trustworthy source of investment advice, as evidenced by their panicked reaction to the downgrade. It’s not S & P’s decision that is creating the problem. It’s the REACTION of the so-called financial experts (institutional and government) to a decision made by a morally and intellectually bankrupt company, who once again has made a decision carrying long-term potentially disastrous world-wide consequences with absolutely no thought given to them. And I blame our government for providing special privileges to S & P, not only in relieving them of responsibility for the execution of prior disastrous decisions, but also for allowing them to continue to pose a danger of making more of them.
Participant[quote=jstoesz]I resent the title of this post. It is beyond stupid to lay the blame of the downgrade on the tea party. Now you could easily call it the repub/dem downgrade.[/quote]
I call it what it is: “The S & P Downgrade”. A decision made by a company with, as far as I’m concerned, no credibility. And a decision made with NO concern for their investor clients, as they’ve tried to claim. And a decision made with what was apparently a total lack of even superficially critical thought.
However, S & P is entitled to make its own decisions, and act upon them. The issue I have is with those who are trusting the experience and intellectual capital that is supposedly behind the decision to downgrade. After the mortgage bond ratings debacle, why would ANYONE trust in the abilities of S & P? Their actions (along with other ratings agencies) were a key factor in a financial meltdown that brought the financial system of the United States (and many other nations as well) to its knees.
The fact that greed was the motivating factor in S & P’s decision to award AAA+ ratings to junk mortgage bonds should have been a trigger for mass customer defection, putting them out of business. After all, when the product you are selling is expertise as verified by client trust, and you intentionally and single-mindedly decide to violate that trust, what do you have left to sell? But S & P’s inability to predict the disastrous fallout of its decision to assure its clients of the safety of the mortgage bonds demonstrated that, with or without a moral compass, they lacked the basic intelligence desirable in a company that sells investment advice.
No, I blame S & P for making the decision to downgrade, but that was their prerogative. However, I have a major issue with all the idiots out there who, despite clear cut evidence to the contrary, still obviously see S & P as a trustworthy source of investment advice, as evidenced by their panicked reaction to the downgrade. It’s not S & P’s decision that is creating the problem. It’s the REACTION of the so-called financial experts (institutional and government) to a decision made by a morally and intellectually bankrupt company, who once again has made a decision carrying long-term potentially disastrous world-wide consequences with absolutely no thought given to them. And I blame our government for providing special privileges to S & P, not only in relieving them of responsibility for the execution of prior disastrous decisions, but also for allowing them to continue to pose a danger of making more of them.
Participant[quote=jstoesz]I resent the title of this post. It is beyond stupid to lay the blame of the downgrade on the tea party. Now you could easily call it the repub/dem downgrade.[/quote]
I call it what it is: “The S & P Downgrade”. A decision made by a company with, as far as I’m concerned, no credibility. And a decision made with NO concern for their investor clients, as they’ve tried to claim. And a decision made with what was apparently a total lack of even superficially critical thought.
However, S & P is entitled to make its own decisions, and act upon them. The issue I have is with those who are trusting the experience and intellectual capital that is supposedly behind the decision to downgrade. After the mortgage bond ratings debacle, why would ANYONE trust in the abilities of S & P? Their actions (along with other ratings agencies) were a key factor in a financial meltdown that brought the financial system of the United States (and many other nations as well) to its knees.
The fact that greed was the motivating factor in S & P’s decision to award AAA+ ratings to junk mortgage bonds should have been a trigger for mass customer defection, putting them out of business. After all, when the product you are selling is expertise as verified by client trust, and you intentionally and single-mindedly decide to violate that trust, what do you have left to sell? But S & P’s inability to predict the disastrous fallout of its decision to assure its clients of the safety of the mortgage bonds demonstrated that, with or without a moral compass, they lacked the basic intelligence desirable in a company that sells investment advice.
No, I blame S & P for making the decision to downgrade, but that was their prerogative. However, I have a major issue with all the idiots out there who, despite clear cut evidence to the contrary, still obviously see S & P as a trustworthy source of investment advice, as evidenced by their panicked reaction to the downgrade. It’s not S & P’s decision that is creating the problem. It’s the REACTION of the so-called financial experts (institutional and government) to a decision made by a morally and intellectually bankrupt company, who once again has made a decision carrying long-term potentially disastrous world-wide consequences with absolutely no thought given to them. And I blame our government for providing special privileges to S & P, not only in relieving them of responsibility for the execution of prior disastrous decisions, but also for allowing them to continue to pose a danger of making more of them.
Participant[quote=jstoesz]I resent the title of this post. It is beyond stupid to lay the blame of the downgrade on the tea party. Now you could easily call it the repub/dem downgrade.[/quote]
I call it what it is: “The S & P Downgrade”. A decision made by a company with, as far as I’m concerned, no credibility. And a decision made with NO concern for their investor clients, as they’ve tried to claim. And a decision made with what was apparently a total lack of even superficially critical thought.
However, S & P is entitled to make its own decisions, and act upon them. The issue I have is with those who are trusting the experience and intellectual capital that is supposedly behind the decision to downgrade. After the mortgage bond ratings debacle, why would ANYONE trust in the abilities of S & P? Their actions (along with other ratings agencies) were a key factor in a financial meltdown that brought the financial system of the United States (and many other nations as well) to its knees.
The fact that greed was the motivating factor in S & P’s decision to award AAA+ ratings to junk mortgage bonds should have been a trigger for mass customer defection, putting them out of business. After all, when the product you are selling is expertise as verified by client trust, and you intentionally and single-mindedly decide to violate that trust, what do you have left to sell? But S & P’s inability to predict the disastrous fallout of its decision to assure its clients of the safety of the mortgage bonds demonstrated that, with or without a moral compass, they lacked the basic intelligence desirable in a company that sells investment advice.
No, I blame S & P for making the decision to downgrade, but that was their prerogative. However, I have a major issue with all the idiots out there who, despite clear cut evidence to the contrary, still obviously see S & P as a trustworthy source of investment advice, as evidenced by their panicked reaction to the downgrade. It’s not S & P’s decision that is creating the problem. It’s the REACTION of the so-called financial experts (institutional and government) to a decision made by a morally and intellectually bankrupt company, who once again has made a decision carrying long-term potentially disastrous world-wide consequences with absolutely no thought given to them. And I blame our government for providing special privileges to S & P, not only in relieving them of responsibility for the execution of prior disastrous decisions, but also for allowing them to continue to pose a danger of making more of them.
Participant[quote=jstoesz]I resent the title of this post. It is beyond stupid to lay the blame of the downgrade on the tea party. Now you could easily call it the repub/dem downgrade.[/quote]
I call it what it is: “The S & P Downgrade”. A decision made by a company with, as far as I’m concerned, no credibility. And a decision made with NO concern for their investor clients, as they’ve tried to claim. And a decision made with what was apparently a total lack of even superficially critical thought.
However, S & P is entitled to make its own decisions, and act upon them. The issue I have is with those who are trusting the experience and intellectual capital that is supposedly behind the decision to downgrade. After the mortgage bond ratings debacle, why would ANYONE trust in the abilities of S & P? Their actions (along with other ratings agencies) were a key factor in a financial meltdown that brought the financial system of the United States (and many other nations as well) to its knees.
The fact that greed was the motivating factor in S & P’s decision to award AAA+ ratings to junk mortgage bonds should have been a trigger for mass customer defection, putting them out of business. After all, when the product you are selling is expertise as verified by client trust, and you intentionally and single-mindedly decide to violate that trust, what do you have left to sell? But S & P’s inability to predict the disastrous fallout of its decision to assure its clients of the safety of the mortgage bonds demonstrated that, with or without a moral compass, they lacked the basic intelligence desirable in a company that sells investment advice.
No, I blame S & P for making the decision to downgrade, but that was their prerogative. However, I have a major issue with all the idiots out there who, despite clear cut evidence to the contrary, still obviously see S & P as a trustworthy source of investment advice, as evidenced by their panicked reaction to the downgrade. It’s not S & P’s decision that is creating the problem. It’s the REACTION of the so-called financial experts (institutional and government) to a decision made by a morally and intellectually bankrupt company, who once again has made a decision carrying long-term potentially disastrous world-wide consequences with absolutely no thought given to them. And I blame our government for providing special privileges to S & P, not only in relieving them of responsibility for the execution of prior disastrous decisions, but also for allowing them to continue to pose a danger of making more of them.
Participant[quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=EconProf]And entitlements, which dwarf defense and other discretionary items, were not even touched. [/quote]
Entitlements are sacrosanct, especially to the Dems, which view them now as almost a birthright.
I’m all for cutting the Defense budget, although I cannot see how this will be anything but a disaster in the midst of two wars.
Until we get serious about cutting entitlements, tax reform, and honest fiscal reform, we’re going to see this drama played out numerous times over the coming years.
If you take half the budget outlays and essentially make them off-limits, you’ll get exactly what we have now: Drastic cuts to the other half of the budget, including discretionary (which includes infrastructure), while ignoring the proverbial elephant in the room. This is a massive wealth transfer from the young(er) to the elderly and is completely unsustainable over the coming years.[/quote]
Allan, I agree with you in general, but I think that there is quite a bit of wealth being transferred from the boomer generation (pre-elderly?) to those of considerably younger age. People (including the bright boys in Congress) think only of the elderly when they talk about Social Security. The majority of the population appears to believe that 100% of the population benefiting from SS is over the age of 65 (okay, 62 for those taking early retirement).
Social Security/Medicare: great idea on paper/unsustainable as “designed”. Then, of course, there’s that great American political tradition of creating a program, often without a clear-cut funding plan behind it, being put into operation, and then never looking at it again. Add to that, the second great American political tradition of adding more groups onto programs that have proved popular with the masses, and VOILA!! You have present day Social Security/Medicare.
Only two-thirds of those receiving SS benefits are retirees who paid dedicated taxes into the system that were matched by employers’ contributions. The other-third are beneficiaries who either paid nothing, or very little into the system: widows, minor dependents (not necessarily children), divorced spouses of retirees, and those benefiting from Social Security Disability and SSI. While SS Disability requires some tax contributions, it is faaarrr less, and one’s ability to collect is not dependent upon it. It is not only available to working adults, but to adults and CHILDREN who have never worked. There’s even a category that allows for payments to parents of disabled children who are deceased.
The numbers of beneficiaries for SSI and disability has risen and fallen at various times in the program’s history. But the figures over the past 10 years are truly shocking. A couple years back, the number of people awarded SS/Medicare for disability surpassed the number of retirees who were due to start in the system.
Government statistics indicate that 8.5% to 9% of those adults in the 25 to 65 age group are “disabled” to the point that they cannot perform any gainful employment. If that is, indeed, true, we have much greater problems than the national debt. It shows that either we are an extremely unhealthy country, or it shows that we have a huge number of citizens that are unable to work through physical/mental problems that cannot even begin to compare with those faced by our ancestors, and who do not believe in taking responsibility for themselves and their offspring. Either scenario does not bode well for our nation’s future.
It is demoralizing to think of the Congress who will not address the existing problems with funding retirees’ SS/Medicare benefits, much less those associated with the “boomer tsunami” headed our way. But it is truly shocking and frightening to become aware that Congress has, for years, been warned about the unaddressed problem with rapidly-increasing numbers of citizens being added to the Social Security benefit rolls, and that they choose to pretend that the situation doesn’t exist.
EconProf, you can’t blame this on the Democrats, much as you’d like to. A cursory review of Congressional activity over the past decade has shown that, despite an abundance of lip service to the contrary, Republicans, as a party, are just as reluctant to take decisive action against entitlement programs; a more detailed review does not uncover any additional evidence of Republican-led action. Periodically, individual members or teams will attempt to introduce legislation that does attempt to make inroads against the unsustainability of our entitlement policy, but those brave Congressional souls are immediately shot down in their efforts
To wit, Tom Coburn’s recent debt-resolution offering: while not perfect, it slashed entitlement programs across the board, including those that benefit corporate interests and defense contractors, along with the elderly, the truly disabled and needy, and those that simply want to take whatever they can. It also called for tax increases for a wide range of income-earners, from the lower middle-class to the wealthiest heiress and richest hedge fund managers. For his hard work and effort, Sen. Coburn received abundant abuse from his fellow members of Congress, including his own Republican Party. Other members/teams who worked diligently on plans that offered actual solutions (as opposed to declarations of sweeping change largely based on political rhetoric), were treated in a manner similar to that aimed at Sen. Coburn.
While I’ll admit the Democratic party is responsible for originating many of the large entitlement programs, and appears unable to extricate itself from a “Solve Through Entitlements” campaign philosophy, the Republicans are equally complicit in maintaining and nourishing them, and even creating some of their own (can you say “Medicare Drug Benefit”?).
We really don’t have a two-party (Republican-Democrat) Congress anymore. What we have is a two-goal Congress. It’s those that want to be elected to Congress in perpetuity versus those who want to work hard, compromising with others, to address the problems that threaten our very existence as a nation. Unfortunately, the latter group is far outnumbered by the first. If this country’s citizenry do not stop taking their direction from ill-informed bloggers, hate-filled media personalities, and plastic empty-headed power-hungry politicians, and make the time to research the truth on their own, they will lose the right to do so.
Participant[quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=EconProf]And entitlements, which dwarf defense and other discretionary items, were not even touched. [/quote]
Entitlements are sacrosanct, especially to the Dems, which view them now as almost a birthright.
I’m all for cutting the Defense budget, although I cannot see how this will be anything but a disaster in the midst of two wars.
Until we get serious about cutting entitlements, tax reform, and honest fiscal reform, we’re going to see this drama played out numerous times over the coming years.
If you take half the budget outlays and essentially make them off-limits, you’ll get exactly what we have now: Drastic cuts to the other half of the budget, including discretionary (which includes infrastructure), while ignoring the proverbial elephant in the room. This is a massive wealth transfer from the young(er) to the elderly and is completely unsustainable over the coming years.[/quote]
Allan, I agree with you in general, but I think that there is quite a bit of wealth being transferred from the boomer generation (pre-elderly?) to those of considerably younger age. People (including the bright boys in Congress) think only of the elderly when they talk about Social Security. The majority of the population appears to believe that 100% of the population benefiting from SS is over the age of 65 (okay, 62 for those taking early retirement).
Social Security/Medicare: great idea on paper/unsustainable as “designed”. Then, of course, there’s that great American political tradition of creating a program, often without a clear-cut funding plan behind it, being put into operation, and then never looking at it again. Add to that, the second great American political tradition of adding more groups onto programs that have proved popular with the masses, and VOILA!! You have present day Social Security/Medicare.
Only two-thirds of those receiving SS benefits are retirees who paid dedicated taxes into the system that were matched by employers’ contributions. The other-third are beneficiaries who either paid nothing, or very little into the system: widows, minor dependents (not necessarily children), divorced spouses of retirees, and those benefiting from Social Security Disability and SSI. While SS Disability requires some tax contributions, it is faaarrr less, and one’s ability to collect is not dependent upon it. It is not only available to working adults, but to adults and CHILDREN who have never worked. There’s even a category that allows for payments to parents of disabled children who are deceased.
The numbers of beneficiaries for SSI and disability has risen and fallen at various times in the program’s history. But the figures over the past 10 years are truly shocking. A couple years back, the number of people awarded SS/Medicare for disability surpassed the number of retirees who were due to start in the system.
Government statistics indicate that 8.5% to 9% of those adults in the 25 to 65 age group are “disabled” to the point that they cannot perform any gainful employment. If that is, indeed, true, we have much greater problems than the national debt. It shows that either we are an extremely unhealthy country, or it shows that we have a huge number of citizens that are unable to work through physical/mental problems that cannot even begin to compare with those faced by our ancestors, and who do not believe in taking responsibility for themselves and their offspring. Either scenario does not bode well for our nation’s future.
It is demoralizing to think of the Congress who will not address the existing problems with funding retirees’ SS/Medicare benefits, much less those associated with the “boomer tsunami” headed our way. But it is truly shocking and frightening to become aware that Congress has, for years, been warned about the unaddressed problem with rapidly-increasing numbers of citizens being added to the Social Security benefit rolls, and that they choose to pretend that the situation doesn’t exist.
EconProf, you can’t blame this on the Democrats, much as you’d like to. A cursory review of Congressional activity over the past decade has shown that, despite an abundance of lip service to the contrary, Republicans, as a party, are just as reluctant to take decisive action against entitlement programs; a more detailed review does not uncover any additional evidence of Republican-led action. Periodically, individual members or teams will attempt to introduce legislation that does attempt to make inroads against the unsustainability of our entitlement policy, but those brave Congressional souls are immediately shot down in their efforts
To wit, Tom Coburn’s recent debt-resolution offering: while not perfect, it slashed entitlement programs across the board, including those that benefit corporate interests and defense contractors, along with the elderly, the truly disabled and needy, and those that simply want to take whatever they can. It also called for tax increases for a wide range of income-earners, from the lower middle-class to the wealthiest heiress and richest hedge fund managers. For his hard work and effort, Sen. Coburn received abundant abuse from his fellow members of Congress, including his own Republican Party. Other members/teams who worked diligently on plans that offered actual solutions (as opposed to declarations of sweeping change largely based on political rhetoric), were treated in a manner similar to that aimed at Sen. Coburn.
While I’ll admit the Democratic party is responsible for originating many of the large entitlement programs, and appears unable to extricate itself from a “Solve Through Entitlements” campaign philosophy, the Republicans are equally complicit in maintaining and nourishing them, and even creating some of their own (can you say “Medicare Drug Benefit”?).
We really don’t have a two-party (Republican-Democrat) Congress anymore. What we have is a two-goal Congress. It’s those that want to be elected to Congress in perpetuity versus those who want to work hard, compromising with others, to address the problems that threaten our very existence as a nation. Unfortunately, the latter group is far outnumbered by the first. If this country’s citizenry do not stop taking their direction from ill-informed bloggers, hate-filled media personalities, and plastic empty-headed power-hungry politicians, and make the time to research the truth on their own, they will lose the right to do so.
Participant[quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=EconProf]And entitlements, which dwarf defense and other discretionary items, were not even touched. [/quote]
Entitlements are sacrosanct, especially to the Dems, which view them now as almost a birthright.
I’m all for cutting the Defense budget, although I cannot see how this will be anything but a disaster in the midst of two wars.
Until we get serious about cutting entitlements, tax reform, and honest fiscal reform, we’re going to see this drama played out numerous times over the coming years.
If you take half the budget outlays and essentially make them off-limits, you’ll get exactly what we have now: Drastic cuts to the other half of the budget, including discretionary (which includes infrastructure), while ignoring the proverbial elephant in the room. This is a massive wealth transfer from the young(er) to the elderly and is completely unsustainable over the coming years.[/quote]
Allan, I agree with you in general, but I think that there is quite a bit of wealth being transferred from the boomer generation (pre-elderly?) to those of considerably younger age. People (including the bright boys in Congress) think only of the elderly when they talk about Social Security. The majority of the population appears to believe that 100% of the population benefiting from SS is over the age of 65 (okay, 62 for those taking early retirement).
Social Security/Medicare: great idea on paper/unsustainable as “designed”. Then, of course, there’s that great American political tradition of creating a program, often without a clear-cut funding plan behind it, being put into operation, and then never looking at it again. Add to that, the second great American political tradition of adding more groups onto programs that have proved popular with the masses, and VOILA!! You have present day Social Security/Medicare.
Only two-thirds of those receiving SS benefits are retirees who paid dedicated taxes into the system that were matched by employers’ contributions. The other-third are beneficiaries who either paid nothing, or very little into the system: widows, minor dependents (not necessarily children), divorced spouses of retirees, and those benefiting from Social Security Disability and SSI. While SS Disability requires some tax contributions, it is faaarrr less, and one’s ability to collect is not dependent upon it. It is not only available to working adults, but to adults and CHILDREN who have never worked. There’s even a category that allows for payments to parents of disabled children who are deceased.
The numbers of beneficiaries for SSI and disability has risen and fallen at various times in the program’s history. But the figures over the past 10 years are truly shocking. A couple years back, the number of people awarded SS/Medicare for disability surpassed the number of retirees who were due to start in the system.
Government statistics indicate that 8.5% to 9% of those adults in the 25 to 65 age group are “disabled” to the point that they cannot perform any gainful employment. If that is, indeed, true, we have much greater problems than the national debt. It shows that either we are an extremely unhealthy country, or it shows that we have a huge number of citizens that are unable to work through physical/mental problems that cannot even begin to compare with those faced by our ancestors, and who do not believe in taking responsibility for themselves and their offspring. Either scenario does not bode well for our nation’s future.
It is demoralizing to think of the Congress who will not address the existing problems with funding retirees’ SS/Medicare benefits, much less those associated with the “boomer tsunami” headed our way. But it is truly shocking and frightening to become aware that Congress has, for years, been warned about the unaddressed problem with rapidly-increasing numbers of citizens being added to the Social Security benefit rolls, and that they choose to pretend that the situation doesn’t exist.
EconProf, you can’t blame this on the Democrats, much as you’d like to. A cursory review of Congressional activity over the past decade has shown that, despite an abundance of lip service to the contrary, Republicans, as a party, are just as reluctant to take decisive action against entitlement programs; a more detailed review does not uncover any additional evidence of Republican-led action. Periodically, individual members or teams will attempt to introduce legislation that does attempt to make inroads against the unsustainability of our entitlement policy, but those brave Congressional souls are immediately shot down in their efforts
To wit, Tom Coburn’s recent debt-resolution offering: while not perfect, it slashed entitlement programs across the board, including those that benefit corporate interests and defense contractors, along with the elderly, the truly disabled and needy, and those that simply want to take whatever they can. It also called for tax increases for a wide range of income-earners, from the lower middle-class to the wealthiest heiress and richest hedge fund managers. For his hard work and effort, Sen. Coburn received abundant abuse from his fellow members of Congress, including his own Republican Party. Other members/teams who worked diligently on plans that offered actual solutions (as opposed to declarations of sweeping change largely based on political rhetoric), were treated in a manner similar to that aimed at Sen. Coburn.
While I’ll admit the Democratic party is responsible for originating many of the large entitlement programs, and appears unable to extricate itself from a “Solve Through Entitlements” campaign philosophy, the Republicans are equally complicit in maintaining and nourishing them, and even creating some of their own (can you say “Medicare Drug Benefit”?).
We really don’t have a two-party (Republican-Democrat) Congress anymore. What we have is a two-goal Congress. It’s those that want to be elected to Congress in perpetuity versus those who want to work hard, compromising with others, to address the problems that threaten our very existence as a nation. Unfortunately, the latter group is far outnumbered by the first. If this country’s citizenry do not stop taking their direction from ill-informed bloggers, hate-filled media personalities, and plastic empty-headed power-hungry politicians, and make the time to research the truth on their own, they will lose the right to do so.
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