[eavesdropper]

[quote=Djshakes]Eavesdropper: This a matter of the chicken and the egg. Has the government created an entitled dependent society or does the society truly need the government. I would like to think it falls in the middle.[/quote]

That’s a tough one, Dj. Like you, I would prefer the truth to lie somewhere in the middle. But I confess to leaning in the direction of the fault lying largely with the government. Not that I favor people readily accepting aid they don’t truly deserve, or opting to take the easier way out, but it is a normal human instinct (animal, too, come to think of it).

The current entitlement programs were largely created or had their benefits vastly expanded during a time of unprecedented sociological change that, I believe, provided a fertile breeding ground for exponential growth of the rolls, and an accompanying change in attitude by the citizenry. As for the government, almost every large entitlement program becomes a proverbial “third rail” once it passes into law. There are almost no candidates, of any party affiliation, that will dare to touch it during their tenure in office.

There have been some interesting studies dealing with self-reporting of disability as it relates to physical health over the past decade. Baby boomers, the first generation to be concerned with self-image and physical fitness, and fortunate beneficiaries of incredible biomedical advances, have been reporting significantly higher rates of conditions they term as disabling in their 50s than cohorts 30 years older. The epidemiology is not complete, but I’m looking forward to reading the literature when they come up with the reasons for the discrepancy.

I’m not a Boomer basher. Just a Boomer. Non-disabled variety, I’m grateful to say.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=Djshakes]Eavesdropper: This a matter of the chicken and the egg. Has the government created an entitled dependent society or does the society truly need the government. I would like to think it falls in the middle.[/quote]

That’s a tough one, Dj. Like you, I would prefer the truth to lie somewhere in the middle. But I confess to leaning in the direction of the fault lying largely with the government. Not that I favor people readily accepting aid they don’t truly deserve, or opting to take the easier way out, but it is a normal human instinct (animal, too, come to think of it).

The current entitlement programs were largely created or had their benefits vastly expanded during a time of unprecedented sociological change that, I believe, provided a fertile breeding ground for exponential growth of the rolls, and an accompanying change in attitude by the citizenry. As for the government, almost every large entitlement program becomes a proverbial “third rail” once it passes into law. There are almost no candidates, of any party affiliation, that will dare to touch it during their tenure in office.

There have been some interesting studies dealing with self-reporting of disability as it relates to physical health over the past decade. Baby boomers, the first generation to be concerned with self-image and physical fitness, and fortunate beneficiaries of incredible biomedical advances, have been reporting significantly higher rates of conditions they term as disabling in their 50s than cohorts 30 years older. The epidemiology is not complete, but I’m looking forward to reading the literature when they come up with the reasons for the discrepancy.

I’m not a Boomer basher. Just a Boomer. Non-disabled variety, I’m grateful to say.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=briansd1][quote=eavesdropper]
In the meantime, these people need to stop writing checks with their mouths that their asses can’t cash. If they think that the government is too big, too into their business, too restrictive, and tyrannical to boot, they SHOULD go ahead and denounce them. In the meantime, however, they should give up their Social Security, give up their disability, forego their government-sponsored health care, take in their elderly relatives, and pay for their kids’ education. And if any of their loved ones get sick, they can have them treated to the extent of their abilities and bankbooks, and accept the inevitable if the treatment is not successful. It can be done. Yes, it will be tough. But tough is what these rebels are all about, right?[/quote]

That’s excellent, eavesdropper. Quitting their government or government subsidized jobs is another one I would add.

And someone told me to stop driving or support drill-baby-drill. ;)[/quote]

I don’t know, Brian. In the purest sense of “employment”, there is an ostensibly even exchange of the employee’s labor/services for the employer’s money. In that situation, I believe that an employee of the government can openly criticize and protest the actions of that government, without the least hint of hypocrisy.

However, given the widely-held largely derisive (but not necessarily true) views of government employees, and their value, my “equal exchange” theory could be considered flawed. Likewise, employees/beneficiaries of government contracts and other sponsored programs. It comes down to whether the employee is benefiting disproportionately from the job or program.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=briansd1][quote=eavesdropper]
In the meantime, these people need to stop writing checks with their mouths that their asses can’t cash. If they think that the government is too big, too into their business, too restrictive, and tyrannical to boot, they SHOULD go ahead and denounce them. In the meantime, however, they should give up their Social Security, give up their disability, forego their government-sponsored health care, take in their elderly relatives, and pay for their kids’ education. And if any of their loved ones get sick, they can have them treated to the extent of their abilities and bankbooks, and accept the inevitable if the treatment is not successful. It can be done. Yes, it will be tough. But tough is what these rebels are all about, right?[/quote]

That’s excellent, eavesdropper. Quitting their government or government subsidized jobs is another one I would add.

And someone told me to stop driving or support drill-baby-drill. ;)[/quote]

I don’t know, Brian. In the purest sense of “employment”, there is an ostensibly even exchange of the employee’s labor/services for the employer’s money. In that situation, I believe that an employee of the government can openly criticize and protest the actions of that government, without the least hint of hypocrisy.

However, given the widely-held largely derisive (but not necessarily true) views of government employees, and their value, my “equal exchange” theory could be considered flawed. Likewise, employees/beneficiaries of government contracts and other sponsored programs. It comes down to whether the employee is benefiting disproportionately from the job or program.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=briansd1][quote=eavesdropper]
In the meantime, these people need to stop writing checks with their mouths that their asses can’t cash. If they think that the government is too big, too into their business, too restrictive, and tyrannical to boot, they SHOULD go ahead and denounce them. In the meantime, however, they should give up their Social Security, give up their disability, forego their government-sponsored health care, take in their elderly relatives, and pay for their kids’ education. And if any of their loved ones get sick, they can have them treated to the extent of their abilities and bankbooks, and accept the inevitable if the treatment is not successful. It can be done. Yes, it will be tough. But tough is what these rebels are all about, right?[/quote]

That’s excellent, eavesdropper. Quitting their government or government subsidized jobs is another one I would add.

And someone told me to stop driving or support drill-baby-drill. ;)[/quote]

I don’t know, Brian. In the purest sense of “employment”, there is an ostensibly even exchange of the employee’s labor/services for the employer’s money. In that situation, I believe that an employee of the government can openly criticize and protest the actions of that government, without the least hint of hypocrisy.

However, given the widely-held largely derisive (but not necessarily true) views of government employees, and their value, my “equal exchange” theory could be considered flawed. Likewise, employees/beneficiaries of government contracts and other sponsored programs. It comes down to whether the employee is benefiting disproportionately from the job or program.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=briansd1][quote=eavesdropper]
In the meantime, these people need to stop writing checks with their mouths that their asses can’t cash. If they think that the government is too big, too into their business, too restrictive, and tyrannical to boot, they SHOULD go ahead and denounce them. In the meantime, however, they should give up their Social Security, give up their disability, forego their government-sponsored health care, take in their elderly relatives, and pay for their kids’ education. And if any of their loved ones get sick, they can have them treated to the extent of their abilities and bankbooks, and accept the inevitable if the treatment is not successful. It can be done. Yes, it will be tough. But tough is what these rebels are all about, right?[/quote]

That’s excellent, eavesdropper. Quitting their government or government subsidized jobs is another one I would add.

And someone told me to stop driving or support drill-baby-drill. ;)[/quote]

I don’t know, Brian. In the purest sense of “employment”, there is an ostensibly even exchange of the employee’s labor/services for the employer’s money. In that situation, I believe that an employee of the government can openly criticize and protest the actions of that government, without the least hint of hypocrisy.

However, given the widely-held largely derisive (but not necessarily true) views of government employees, and their value, my “equal exchange” theory could be considered flawed. Likewise, employees/beneficiaries of government contracts and other sponsored programs. It comes down to whether the employee is benefiting disproportionately from the job or program.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=briansd1][quote=eavesdropper]
In the meantime, these people need to stop writing checks with their mouths that their asses can’t cash. If they think that the government is too big, too into their business, too restrictive, and tyrannical to boot, they SHOULD go ahead and denounce them. In the meantime, however, they should give up their Social Security, give up their disability, forego their government-sponsored health care, take in their elderly relatives, and pay for their kids’ education. And if any of their loved ones get sick, they can have them treated to the extent of their abilities and bankbooks, and accept the inevitable if the treatment is not successful. It can be done. Yes, it will be tough. But tough is what these rebels are all about, right?[/quote]

That’s excellent, eavesdropper. Quitting their government or government subsidized jobs is another one I would add.

And someone told me to stop driving or support drill-baby-drill. ;)[/quote]

I don’t know, Brian. In the purest sense of “employment”, there is an ostensibly even exchange of the employee’s labor/services for the employer’s money. In that situation, I believe that an employee of the government can openly criticize and protest the actions of that government, without the least hint of hypocrisy.

However, given the widely-held largely derisive (but not necessarily true) views of government employees, and their value, my “equal exchange” theory could be considered flawed. Likewise, employees/beneficiaries of government contracts and other sponsored programs. It comes down to whether the employee is benefiting disproportionately from the job or program.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=Djshakes] I often wonder if there is hope as I feel this country is going to commit suicide from within. The ying and yang of a two party system is that most people can identify with either party and they are represented but they also fail to accept or recognize the fault of their own party. This stubbornness will ultimately doom us as people fail to see reality. Such is the case with members like Brian. According to him, Obama, liberals and progressives can do no wrong. This is scary because each end of the spectrum has faults. It is unfortunate because this train of thought can only be changed with catastrophic events like planes flying into buildings or massive environmental catastrophes. This leads to reactionary thinking when we need to be proactive and truthful with ourselves, even if that truth hurts because it conflicts with our individual biases…. [/quote]

You’ve brought up a number of subtle but salient points in your post, and they mirror many of mine. I think that the course of events in your scenario is dead-on, but I honestly don’t know what the solution is. My armchair psychologist’s take is that many people, whose self-esteem is already seriously compromised, totally identify with their political party, and if you criticize any action taken or quote uttered by any representative of that party, you are directly criticizing them. I think that this trend is partially responsible for the severe polarization we see in America today.

There are many on this forum who are in the practice of carefully considering situations from a number of angles, and who realize that there will always be some bit of contradiction in our philosophies. We approach these questions critically, working through a number of scenarios, refining as we go, until we arrive at a rational conclusion. We will change our philosophies if that becomes necessary. Unfortunately, most people these days seem to prefer changing the facts of a situation instead.

Eight or ten years ago, many people I knew were eager to engage in political discussion. It could get heated, but for the most part, something approaching an exchange of ideas would take place. This worked best with someone whose philosophies were at a variance with mine, since this led to a true demonstration of argumentation skills, and I was often able to learn quite a bit of new information in the process. At the least, it would frequently spur me on to seeking out information on a topic about which I believed I had the whole story, and could cause me to alter my views.

That’s not the case anymore. People want to put their opinions out there for everyone to see, but they are too chickenshit to defend them in any way. You’re absolutely correct: people hold fast to these opinions until a catastrophic event forces recognition of philosophical flaws through the thick layer of denial that exists in their minds. And situations that should be guided by calm critical thought and intellect, are instead handled in a reactionary manner.

[quote=Djshakes] In the past decade the pendulum has been swinging with stronger force than usual. Bush’s idiotic administration was the driving force in creating momentum to the left, where as now, Obama’s administration is creating discontent and force through the tea parties, etc. to the right. I only hope that it will somehow settle in the center/center-right in which I consider reality.

The founding fathers created a country in which they hope would fall in the center or center-right. The “right” in center being limited federal government intervention. I am not going to lie, I am a conservative when it comes to limited powers of federal government’s ability to be involved in my personal life. However, don’t mistake me for a republican as I feel both parties are one in the same and only care about the survival of their political career/party. Government is government and once they create a tax, law, coalition, organization, branch it is pretty much the closest thing to eternal life on this planet. Based on their track record of Medicare, Social Security, etc. I don’t have a lot of confidence that they can create efficient, productive solutions.[/quote]

I don’t know if the missteps of the Bush Administration created a momentum to the left so much as a momentum to “something different”. Despite what I consider to be some pretty outrageous actions (and inactions) over the eight years of GWB, I think that the momentum to the right was still fairly strong, and people were reluctant to let that go. I believe that John McCain may well have won the election if he had picked a more suitable VP candidate. People chose the “least objectionable” team (or simply declined to cast a vote), and hoped for the best. However, the extreme far right went to work immediately after the election, and hit the Democrats hard and fast with a strategy that had been highly successful for the two decades since the Lee Atwater-directed campaign of Bush 1. The fact is that the Democrats who continued to revel in their great victory, which they believed to be based on their platform, didn’t recognize this action for the serious threat that it was, and continues to be. They are still missing the boat on what really is pissing off Americans.

Your statement, “I am not going to lie, I am a conservative when it comes to limited powers of federal government’s ability to be involved in my personal life”, is sobering. Not because of your political leanings or views, but because you felt compelled to preface “I am a conservative” with the conditional “I am not going to lie”. I feel sad because I, too, feel a similar need to condition any expression of my political views, largely because of the current political atmosphere. I miss those days of free and feisty political exchange from a decade ago. I feel like my freedom to evaluate and judge and choose political views and candidates is being viewed as unpatriotic, and is being challenged. That frightens me.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=Djshakes] I often wonder if there is hope as I feel this country is going to commit suicide from within. The ying and yang of a two party system is that most people can identify with either party and they are represented but they also fail to accept or recognize the fault of their own party. This stubbornness will ultimately doom us as people fail to see reality. Such is the case with members like Brian. According to him, Obama, liberals and progressives can do no wrong. This is scary because each end of the spectrum has faults. It is unfortunate because this train of thought can only be changed with catastrophic events like planes flying into buildings or massive environmental catastrophes. This leads to reactionary thinking when we need to be proactive and truthful with ourselves, even if that truth hurts because it conflicts with our individual biases…. [/quote]

You’ve brought up a number of subtle but salient points in your post, and they mirror many of mine. I think that the course of events in your scenario is dead-on, but I honestly don’t know what the solution is. My armchair psychologist’s take is that many people, whose self-esteem is already seriously compromised, totally identify with their political party, and if you criticize any action taken or quote uttered by any representative of that party, you are directly criticizing them. I think that this trend is partially responsible for the severe polarization we see in America today.

There are many on this forum who are in the practice of carefully considering situations from a number of angles, and who realize that there will always be some bit of contradiction in our philosophies. We approach these questions critically, working through a number of scenarios, refining as we go, until we arrive at a rational conclusion. We will change our philosophies if that becomes necessary. Unfortunately, most people these days seem to prefer changing the facts of a situation instead.

Eight or ten years ago, many people I knew were eager to engage in political discussion. It could get heated, but for the most part, something approaching an exchange of ideas would take place. This worked best with someone whose philosophies were at a variance with mine, since this led to a true demonstration of argumentation skills, and I was often able to learn quite a bit of new information in the process. At the least, it would frequently spur me on to seeking out information on a topic about which I believed I had the whole story, and could cause me to alter my views.

That’s not the case anymore. People want to put their opinions out there for everyone to see, but they are too chickenshit to defend them in any way. You’re absolutely correct: people hold fast to these opinions until a catastrophic event forces recognition of philosophical flaws through the thick layer of denial that exists in their minds. And situations that should be guided by calm critical thought and intellect, are instead handled in a reactionary manner.

[quote=Djshakes] In the past decade the pendulum has been swinging with stronger force than usual. Bush’s idiotic administration was the driving force in creating momentum to the left, where as now, Obama’s administration is creating discontent and force through the tea parties, etc. to the right. I only hope that it will somehow settle in the center/center-right in which I consider reality.

The founding fathers created a country in which they hope would fall in the center or center-right. The “right” in center being limited federal government intervention. I am not going to lie, I am a conservative when it comes to limited powers of federal government’s ability to be involved in my personal life. However, don’t mistake me for a republican as I feel both parties are one in the same and only care about the survival of their political career/party. Government is government and once they create a tax, law, coalition, organization, branch it is pretty much the closest thing to eternal life on this planet. Based on their track record of Medicare, Social Security, etc. I don’t have a lot of confidence that they can create efficient, productive solutions.[/quote]

I don’t know if the missteps of the Bush Administration created a momentum to the left so much as a momentum to “something different”. Despite what I consider to be some pretty outrageous actions (and inactions) over the eight years of GWB, I think that the momentum to the right was still fairly strong, and people were reluctant to let that go. I believe that John McCain may well have won the election if he had picked a more suitable VP candidate. People chose the “least objectionable” team (or simply declined to cast a vote), and hoped for the best. However, the extreme far right went to work immediately after the election, and hit the Democrats hard and fast with a strategy that had been highly successful for the two decades since the Lee Atwater-directed campaign of Bush 1. The fact is that the Democrats who continued to revel in their great victory, which they believed to be based on their platform, didn’t recognize this action for the serious threat that it was, and continues to be. They are still missing the boat on what really is pissing off Americans.

Your statement, “I am not going to lie, I am a conservative when it comes to limited powers of federal government’s ability to be involved in my personal life”, is sobering. Not because of your political leanings or views, but because you felt compelled to preface “I am a conservative” with the conditional “I am not going to lie”. I feel sad because I, too, feel a similar need to condition any expression of my political views, largely because of the current political atmosphere. I miss those days of free and feisty political exchange from a decade ago. I feel like my freedom to evaluate and judge and choose political views and candidates is being viewed as unpatriotic, and is being challenged. That frightens me.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=Djshakes] I often wonder if there is hope as I feel this country is going to commit suicide from within. The ying and yang of a two party system is that most people can identify with either party and they are represented but they also fail to accept or recognize the fault of their own party. This stubbornness will ultimately doom us as people fail to see reality. Such is the case with members like Brian. According to him, Obama, liberals and progressives can do no wrong. This is scary because each end of the spectrum has faults. It is unfortunate because this train of thought can only be changed with catastrophic events like planes flying into buildings or massive environmental catastrophes. This leads to reactionary thinking when we need to be proactive and truthful with ourselves, even if that truth hurts because it conflicts with our individual biases…. [/quote]

You’ve brought up a number of subtle but salient points in your post, and they mirror many of mine. I think that the course of events in your scenario is dead-on, but I honestly don’t know what the solution is. My armchair psychologist’s take is that many people, whose self-esteem is already seriously compromised, totally identify with their political party, and if you criticize any action taken or quote uttered by any representative of that party, you are directly criticizing them. I think that this trend is partially responsible for the severe polarization we see in America today.

There are many on this forum who are in the practice of carefully considering situations from a number of angles, and who realize that there will always be some bit of contradiction in our philosophies. We approach these questions critically, working through a number of scenarios, refining as we go, until we arrive at a rational conclusion. We will change our philosophies if that becomes necessary. Unfortunately, most people these days seem to prefer changing the facts of a situation instead.

Eight or ten years ago, many people I knew were eager to engage in political discussion. It could get heated, but for the most part, something approaching an exchange of ideas would take place. This worked best with someone whose philosophies were at a variance with mine, since this led to a true demonstration of argumentation skills, and I was often able to learn quite a bit of new information in the process. At the least, it would frequently spur me on to seeking out information on a topic about which I believed I had the whole story, and could cause me to alter my views.

That’s not the case anymore. People want to put their opinions out there for everyone to see, but they are too chickenshit to defend them in any way. You’re absolutely correct: people hold fast to these opinions until a catastrophic event forces recognition of philosophical flaws through the thick layer of denial that exists in their minds. And situations that should be guided by calm critical thought and intellect, are instead handled in a reactionary manner.

[quote=Djshakes] In the past decade the pendulum has been swinging with stronger force than usual. Bush’s idiotic administration was the driving force in creating momentum to the left, where as now, Obama’s administration is creating discontent and force through the tea parties, etc. to the right. I only hope that it will somehow settle in the center/center-right in which I consider reality.

The founding fathers created a country in which they hope would fall in the center or center-right. The “right” in center being limited federal government intervention. I am not going to lie, I am a conservative when it comes to limited powers of federal government’s ability to be involved in my personal life. However, don’t mistake me for a republican as I feel both parties are one in the same and only care about the survival of their political career/party. Government is government and once they create a tax, law, coalition, organization, branch it is pretty much the closest thing to eternal life on this planet. Based on their track record of Medicare, Social Security, etc. I don’t have a lot of confidence that they can create efficient, productive solutions.[/quote]

I don’t know if the missteps of the Bush Administration created a momentum to the left so much as a momentum to “something different”. Despite what I consider to be some pretty outrageous actions (and inactions) over the eight years of GWB, I think that the momentum to the right was still fairly strong, and people were reluctant to let that go. I believe that John McCain may well have won the election if he had picked a more suitable VP candidate. People chose the “least objectionable” team (or simply declined to cast a vote), and hoped for the best. However, the extreme far right went to work immediately after the election, and hit the Democrats hard and fast with a strategy that had been highly successful for the two decades since the Lee Atwater-directed campaign of Bush 1. The fact is that the Democrats who continued to revel in their great victory, which they believed to be based on their platform, didn’t recognize this action for the serious threat that it was, and continues to be. They are still missing the boat on what really is pissing off Americans.

Your statement, “I am not going to lie, I am a conservative when it comes to limited powers of federal government’s ability to be involved in my personal life”, is sobering. Not because of your political leanings or views, but because you felt compelled to preface “I am a conservative” with the conditional “I am not going to lie”. I feel sad because I, too, feel a similar need to condition any expression of my political views, largely because of the current political atmosphere. I miss those days of free and feisty political exchange from a decade ago. I feel like my freedom to evaluate and judge and choose political views and candidates is being viewed as unpatriotic, and is being challenged. That frightens me.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=Djshakes] I often wonder if there is hope as I feel this country is going to commit suicide from within. The ying and yang of a two party system is that most people can identify with either party and they are represented but they also fail to accept or recognize the fault of their own party. This stubbornness will ultimately doom us as people fail to see reality. Such is the case with members like Brian. According to him, Obama, liberals and progressives can do no wrong. This is scary because each end of the spectrum has faults. It is unfortunate because this train of thought can only be changed with catastrophic events like planes flying into buildings or massive environmental catastrophes. This leads to reactionary thinking when we need to be proactive and truthful with ourselves, even if that truth hurts because it conflicts with our individual biases…. [/quote]

You’ve brought up a number of subtle but salient points in your post, and they mirror many of mine. I think that the course of events in your scenario is dead-on, but I honestly don’t know what the solution is. My armchair psychologist’s take is that many people, whose self-esteem is already seriously compromised, totally identify with their political party, and if you criticize any action taken or quote uttered by any representative of that party, you are directly criticizing them. I think that this trend is partially responsible for the severe polarization we see in America today.

There are many on this forum who are in the practice of carefully considering situations from a number of angles, and who realize that there will always be some bit of contradiction in our philosophies. We approach these questions critically, working through a number of scenarios, refining as we go, until we arrive at a rational conclusion. We will change our philosophies if that becomes necessary. Unfortunately, most people these days seem to prefer changing the facts of a situation instead.

Eight or ten years ago, many people I knew were eager to engage in political discussion. It could get heated, but for the most part, something approaching an exchange of ideas would take place. This worked best with someone whose philosophies were at a variance with mine, since this led to a true demonstration of argumentation skills, and I was often able to learn quite a bit of new information in the process. At the least, it would frequently spur me on to seeking out information on a topic about which I believed I had the whole story, and could cause me to alter my views.

That’s not the case anymore. People want to put their opinions out there for everyone to see, but they are too chickenshit to defend them in any way. You’re absolutely correct: people hold fast to these opinions until a catastrophic event forces recognition of philosophical flaws through the thick layer of denial that exists in their minds. And situations that should be guided by calm critical thought and intellect, are instead handled in a reactionary manner.

[quote=Djshakes] In the past decade the pendulum has been swinging with stronger force than usual. Bush’s idiotic administration was the driving force in creating momentum to the left, where as now, Obama’s administration is creating discontent and force through the tea parties, etc. to the right. I only hope that it will somehow settle in the center/center-right in which I consider reality.

The founding fathers created a country in which they hope would fall in the center or center-right. The “right” in center being limited federal government intervention. I am not going to lie, I am a conservative when it comes to limited powers of federal government’s ability to be involved in my personal life. However, don’t mistake me for a republican as I feel both parties are one in the same and only care about the survival of their political career/party. Government is government and once they create a tax, law, coalition, organization, branch it is pretty much the closest thing to eternal life on this planet. Based on their track record of Medicare, Social Security, etc. I don’t have a lot of confidence that they can create efficient, productive solutions.[/quote]

I don’t know if the missteps of the Bush Administration created a momentum to the left so much as a momentum to “something different”. Despite what I consider to be some pretty outrageous actions (and inactions) over the eight years of GWB, I think that the momentum to the right was still fairly strong, and people were reluctant to let that go. I believe that John McCain may well have won the election if he had picked a more suitable VP candidate. People chose the “least objectionable” team (or simply declined to cast a vote), and hoped for the best. However, the extreme far right went to work immediately after the election, and hit the Democrats hard and fast with a strategy that had been highly successful for the two decades since the Lee Atwater-directed campaign of Bush 1. The fact is that the Democrats who continued to revel in their great victory, which they believed to be based on their platform, didn’t recognize this action for the serious threat that it was, and continues to be. They are still missing the boat on what really is pissing off Americans.

Your statement, “I am not going to lie, I am a conservative when it comes to limited powers of federal government’s ability to be involved in my personal life”, is sobering. Not because of your political leanings or views, but because you felt compelled to preface “I am a conservative” with the conditional “I am not going to lie”. I feel sad because I, too, feel a similar need to condition any expression of my political views, largely because of the current political atmosphere. I miss those days of free and feisty political exchange from a decade ago. I feel like my freedom to evaluate and judge and choose political views and candidates is being viewed as unpatriotic, and is being challenged. That frightens me.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=Djshakes] I often wonder if there is hope as I feel this country is going to commit suicide from within. The ying and yang of a two party system is that most people can identify with either party and they are represented but they also fail to accept or recognize the fault of their own party. This stubbornness will ultimately doom us as people fail to see reality. Such is the case with members like Brian. According to him, Obama, liberals and progressives can do no wrong. This is scary because each end of the spectrum has faults. It is unfortunate because this train of thought can only be changed with catastrophic events like planes flying into buildings or massive environmental catastrophes. This leads to reactionary thinking when we need to be proactive and truthful with ourselves, even if that truth hurts because it conflicts with our individual biases…. [/quote]

You’ve brought up a number of subtle but salient points in your post, and they mirror many of mine. I think that the course of events in your scenario is dead-on, but I honestly don’t know what the solution is. My armchair psychologist’s take is that many people, whose self-esteem is already seriously compromised, totally identify with their political party, and if you criticize any action taken or quote uttered by any representative of that party, you are directly criticizing them. I think that this trend is partially responsible for the severe polarization we see in America today.

There are many on this forum who are in the practice of carefully considering situations from a number of angles, and who realize that there will always be some bit of contradiction in our philosophies. We approach these questions critically, working through a number of scenarios, refining as we go, until we arrive at a rational conclusion. We will change our philosophies if that becomes necessary. Unfortunately, most people these days seem to prefer changing the facts of a situation instead.

Eight or ten years ago, many people I knew were eager to engage in political discussion. It could get heated, but for the most part, something approaching an exchange of ideas would take place. This worked best with someone whose philosophies were at a variance with mine, since this led to a true demonstration of argumentation skills, and I was often able to learn quite a bit of new information in the process. At the least, it would frequently spur me on to seeking out information on a topic about which I believed I had the whole story, and could cause me to alter my views.

That’s not the case anymore. People want to put their opinions out there for everyone to see, but they are too chickenshit to defend them in any way. You’re absolutely correct: people hold fast to these opinions until a catastrophic event forces recognition of philosophical flaws through the thick layer of denial that exists in their minds. And situations that should be guided by calm critical thought and intellect, are instead handled in a reactionary manner.

[quote=Djshakes] In the past decade the pendulum has been swinging with stronger force than usual. Bush’s idiotic administration was the driving force in creating momentum to the left, where as now, Obama’s administration is creating discontent and force through the tea parties, etc. to the right. I only hope that it will somehow settle in the center/center-right in which I consider reality.

The founding fathers created a country in which they hope would fall in the center or center-right. The “right” in center being limited federal government intervention. I am not going to lie, I am a conservative when it comes to limited powers of federal government’s ability to be involved in my personal life. However, don’t mistake me for a republican as I feel both parties are one in the same and only care about the survival of their political career/party. Government is government and once they create a tax, law, coalition, organization, branch it is pretty much the closest thing to eternal life on this planet. Based on their track record of Medicare, Social Security, etc. I don’t have a lot of confidence that they can create efficient, productive solutions.[/quote]

I don’t know if the missteps of the Bush Administration created a momentum to the left so much as a momentum to “something different”. Despite what I consider to be some pretty outrageous actions (and inactions) over the eight years of GWB, I think that the momentum to the right was still fairly strong, and people were reluctant to let that go. I believe that John McCain may well have won the election if he had picked a more suitable VP candidate. People chose the “least objectionable” team (or simply declined to cast a vote), and hoped for the best. However, the extreme far right went to work immediately after the election, and hit the Democrats hard and fast with a strategy that had been highly successful for the two decades since the Lee Atwater-directed campaign of Bush 1. The fact is that the Democrats who continued to revel in their great victory, which they believed to be based on their platform, didn’t recognize this action for the serious threat that it was, and continues to be. They are still missing the boat on what really is pissing off Americans.

Your statement, “I am not going to lie, I am a conservative when it comes to limited powers of federal government’s ability to be involved in my personal life”, is sobering. Not because of your political leanings or views, but because you felt compelled to preface “I am a conservative” with the conditional “I am not going to lie”. I feel sad because I, too, feel a similar need to condition any expression of my political views, largely because of the current political atmosphere. I miss those days of free and feisty political exchange from a decade ago. I feel like my freedom to evaluate and judge and choose political views and candidates is being viewed as unpatriotic, and is being challenged. That frightens me.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

Eavesdropper: First off, you need to post more. Not only because you generally agree with me, but because you represent an intelligent, fairly middle-of-the-road voice, and that offers balance to the Left versus Right jousting that these threads usually descend into.[/quote]

Allan, I recently returned to school on a fulltime basis, and, at my advanced age, have to devote about three times the recommended amount to studying. Pigg’s is my guilty pleasure, one in which I will sometimes indulge at week’s end, when I take a bit of a break. I have to be careful: there’s always so much of interest going on here, and, before I know it, I’m in panic mode cramming for an exam because I stayed too long on the site.

But I’m a hopeless Pigg’s addict, and not planning on entering detox anytime soon.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
That said and ceteris paribus, [/quote]

See, this is part of the problem. I mentioned in an earlier post that, since I started Pigg’surfing, my cocktail party conversation abilities have become quite impressive due to the superior vocabulary skills demonstrated by Pigg’s habitues. I can’t help myself: I’m a sucker for linguistic porn.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
… we also need to get our shit together: Individually, collectively and as a nation. We’ve turned into a bunch of hand-wringing, ineffective, frightened children who are now conditioned to turn to our Big Mommy/Daddy Gubment to fix all woes, whether its the “War on Terror” (don’t get me started), or this bungled and bungling Gulf crisis. If the latter does nothing else, it should dispel the notion that corporations have a heart and are capable and that Big Government is not the easy answer when things go wrong.[/quote]

I concur. I’ve gone through some rough times in my life, and also had my share of good times. Right now, I’m fortunate enough to be experiencing the latter, but life has taught me that this could change in a second. And why not? So far as I know, no one that has ever walked this earth was born on a bed of roses with a lifelong warranty. Bad shit happens. Even to really good people. And when the shit hits the fan, it’s not necessarily evenly distributed – ergo, life isn’t f**king fair.

There is a serious overabundance of “tough talk” these days. In reality, it’s plain and simple rudeness by people who are frustrated with the perceived shortcomings of their lives, and are looking for someone – anyone but themselves – to blame. They extoll the virtues of our founding fathers, utilizing quotes that said fathers never uttered. They complain bitterly about the tyrannical government who is violating their constitutional rights, but can’t name a single one. They boast of their independent spirit, but listen breathlessly to talk radio as they drive their Ford Super-Duty dually trucks to the bank to cash their Social Security Disability Income checks. And call me an America-hating coward and traitor when I dare to question one of their statements or correct their “facts”.

I fervently hope that you are correct about us getting our heads out of our asses. Aside from the fact that the phrase engenders a truly disturbing and unpleasant mental picture, doing so is essential to our future as a nation. But I don’t have your hope and optimism. After all, we have a huge number of citizens who apparently lack the critical thinking skills necessary to see that taking advantage of the entitlement programs that are part of massive government debt they are protesting is at odds with the political philosophy they are espousing. Despite their protests, they don’t seem to realize that the freedom our nation enjoys is a rare and precious gift, paid for with the blood of our ancestors, who despite their individual philosophies and concerns, managed to pull together long enough to fight off the true threats to that freedom.

In the meantime, these people need to stop writing checks with their mouths that their asses can’t cash. If they think that the government is too big, too into their business, too restrictive, and tyrannical to boot, they SHOULD go ahead and denounce them. In the meantime, however, they should give up their Social Security, give up their disability, forego their government-sponsored health care, take in their elderly relatives, and pay for their kids’ education. And if any of their loved ones get sick, they can have them treated to the extent of their abilities and bankbooks, and accept the inevitable if the treatment is not successful. It can be done. Yes, it will be tough. But tough is what these rebels are all about, right?

[eavesdropper]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

Eavesdropper: First off, you need to post more. Not only because you generally agree with me, but because you represent an intelligent, fairly middle-of-the-road voice, and that offers balance to the Left versus Right jousting that these threads usually descend into.[/quote]

Allan, I recently returned to school on a fulltime basis, and, at my advanced age, have to devote about three times the recommended amount to studying. Pigg’s is my guilty pleasure, one in which I will sometimes indulge at week’s end, when I take a bit of a break. I have to be careful: there’s always so much of interest going on here, and, before I know it, I’m in panic mode cramming for an exam because I stayed too long on the site.

But I’m a hopeless Pigg’s addict, and not planning on entering detox anytime soon.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
That said and ceteris paribus, [/quote]

See, this is part of the problem. I mentioned in an earlier post that, since I started Pigg’surfing, my cocktail party conversation abilities have become quite impressive due to the superior vocabulary skills demonstrated by Pigg’s habitues. I can’t help myself: I’m a sucker for linguistic porn.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
… we also need to get our shit together: Individually, collectively and as a nation. We’ve turned into a bunch of hand-wringing, ineffective, frightened children who are now conditioned to turn to our Big Mommy/Daddy Gubment to fix all woes, whether its the “War on Terror” (don’t get me started), or this bungled and bungling Gulf crisis. If the latter does nothing else, it should dispel the notion that corporations have a heart and are capable and that Big Government is not the easy answer when things go wrong.[/quote]

I concur. I’ve gone through some rough times in my life, and also had my share of good times. Right now, I’m fortunate enough to be experiencing the latter, but life has taught me that this could change in a second. And why not? So far as I know, no one that has ever walked this earth was born on a bed of roses with a lifelong warranty. Bad shit happens. Even to really good people. And when the shit hits the fan, it’s not necessarily evenly distributed – ergo, life isn’t f**king fair.

There is a serious overabundance of “tough talk” these days. In reality, it’s plain and simple rudeness by people who are frustrated with the perceived shortcomings of their lives, and are looking for someone – anyone but themselves – to blame. They extoll the virtues of our founding fathers, utilizing quotes that said fathers never uttered. They complain bitterly about the tyrannical government who is violating their constitutional rights, but can’t name a single one. They boast of their independent spirit, but listen breathlessly to talk radio as they drive their Ford Super-Duty dually trucks to the bank to cash their Social Security Disability Income checks. And call me an America-hating coward and traitor when I dare to question one of their statements or correct their “facts”.

I fervently hope that you are correct about us getting our heads out of our asses. Aside from the fact that the phrase engenders a truly disturbing and unpleasant mental picture, doing so is essential to our future as a nation. But I don’t have your hope and optimism. After all, we have a huge number of citizens who apparently lack the critical thinking skills necessary to see that taking advantage of the entitlement programs that are part of massive government debt they are protesting is at odds with the political philosophy they are espousing. Despite their protests, they don’t seem to realize that the freedom our nation enjoys is a rare and precious gift, paid for with the blood of our ancestors, who despite their individual philosophies and concerns, managed to pull together long enough to fight off the true threats to that freedom.

In the meantime, these people need to stop writing checks with their mouths that their asses can’t cash. If they think that the government is too big, too into their business, too restrictive, and tyrannical to boot, they SHOULD go ahead and denounce them. In the meantime, however, they should give up their Social Security, give up their disability, forego their government-sponsored health care, take in their elderly relatives, and pay for their kids’ education. And if any of their loved ones get sick, they can have them treated to the extent of their abilities and bankbooks, and accept the inevitable if the treatment is not successful. It can be done. Yes, it will be tough. But tough is what these rebels are all about, right?

[eavesdropper]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

Eavesdropper: First off, you need to post more. Not only because you generally agree with me, but because you represent an intelligent, fairly middle-of-the-road voice, and that offers balance to the Left versus Right jousting that these threads usually descend into.[/quote]

Allan, I recently returned to school on a fulltime basis, and, at my advanced age, have to devote about three times the recommended amount to studying. Pigg’s is my guilty pleasure, one in which I will sometimes indulge at week’s end, when I take a bit of a break. I have to be careful: there’s always so much of interest going on here, and, before I know it, I’m in panic mode cramming for an exam because I stayed too long on the site.

But I’m a hopeless Pigg’s addict, and not planning on entering detox anytime soon.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
That said and ceteris paribus, [/quote]

See, this is part of the problem. I mentioned in an earlier post that, since I started Pigg’surfing, my cocktail party conversation abilities have become quite impressive due to the superior vocabulary skills demonstrated by Pigg’s habitues. I can’t help myself: I’m a sucker for linguistic porn.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
… we also need to get our shit together: Individually, collectively and as a nation. We’ve turned into a bunch of hand-wringing, ineffective, frightened children who are now conditioned to turn to our Big Mommy/Daddy Gubment to fix all woes, whether its the “War on Terror” (don’t get me started), or this bungled and bungling Gulf crisis. If the latter does nothing else, it should dispel the notion that corporations have a heart and are capable and that Big Government is not the easy answer when things go wrong.[/quote]

I concur. I’ve gone through some rough times in my life, and also had my share of good times. Right now, I’m fortunate enough to be experiencing the latter, but life has taught me that this could change in a second. And why not? So far as I know, no one that has ever walked this earth was born on a bed of roses with a lifelong warranty. Bad shit happens. Even to really good people. And when the shit hits the fan, it’s not necessarily evenly distributed – ergo, life isn’t f**king fair.

There is a serious overabundance of “tough talk” these days. In reality, it’s plain and simple rudeness by people who are frustrated with the perceived shortcomings of their lives, and are looking for someone – anyone but themselves – to blame. They extoll the virtues of our founding fathers, utilizing quotes that said fathers never uttered. They complain bitterly about the tyrannical government who is violating their constitutional rights, but can’t name a single one. They boast of their independent spirit, but listen breathlessly to talk radio as they drive their Ford Super-Duty dually trucks to the bank to cash their Social Security Disability Income checks. And call me an America-hating coward and traitor when I dare to question one of their statements or correct their “facts”.

I fervently hope that you are correct about us getting our heads out of our asses. Aside from the fact that the phrase engenders a truly disturbing and unpleasant mental picture, doing so is essential to our future as a nation. But I don’t have your hope and optimism. After all, we have a huge number of citizens who apparently lack the critical thinking skills necessary to see that taking advantage of the entitlement programs that are part of massive government debt they are protesting is at odds with the political philosophy they are espousing. Despite their protests, they don’t seem to realize that the freedom our nation enjoys is a rare and precious gift, paid for with the blood of our ancestors, who despite their individual philosophies and concerns, managed to pull together long enough to fight off the true threats to that freedom.

In the meantime, these people need to stop writing checks with their mouths that their asses can’t cash. If they think that the government is too big, too into their business, too restrictive, and tyrannical to boot, they SHOULD go ahead and denounce them. In the meantime, however, they should give up their Social Security, give up their disability, forego their government-sponsored health care, take in their elderly relatives, and pay for their kids’ education. And if any of their loved ones get sick, they can have them treated to the extent of their abilities and bankbooks, and accept the inevitable if the treatment is not successful. It can be done. Yes, it will be tough. But tough is what these rebels are all about, right?

[Author]

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