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davelj
Participant[quote=cooprider]Depends how you look at it.
You can still make millions off people you screw over, run a world class company into the ground, land with a $50 million golden parachute while your peons file bankruptcy, have multiple 10 digit bank accounts, an IQ of 160, and become a industry specialist making $50000/hr training fortune 500 companies how to do the same thing you did and still be an idiot.
Why? Because it’s happening.
Call it karma, fate, judgement, yin yang or whatever you like, but eventually what goes around comes around in this life or the next, or worse, your kids.
Not realizing all actions have a consequence makes you an idiot in my book. Not caring is even worse.[/quote]
Other than taxpayers, who are truly getting screwed (they didn’t ask to participate in the first place), I’m not sure who else is getting “screwed” when these firms go belly-up. The investors should all understand the risks. So long as fraud is not being committed there are no investment victims; just willing participants who lost. Likewise with the employees. I just don’t see the “screwing” going on other than at the taxpayer level.
Participant[quote=cooprider]Depends how you look at it.
You can still make millions off people you screw over, run a world class company into the ground, land with a $50 million golden parachute while your peons file bankruptcy, have multiple 10 digit bank accounts, an IQ of 160, and become a industry specialist making $50000/hr training fortune 500 companies how to do the same thing you did and still be an idiot.
Why? Because it’s happening.
Call it karma, fate, judgement, yin yang or whatever you like, but eventually what goes around comes around in this life or the next, or worse, your kids.
Not realizing all actions have a consequence makes you an idiot in my book. Not caring is even worse.[/quote]
Other than taxpayers, who are truly getting screwed (they didn’t ask to participate in the first place), I’m not sure who else is getting “screwed” when these firms go belly-up. The investors should all understand the risks. So long as fraud is not being committed there are no investment victims; just willing participants who lost. Likewise with the employees. I just don’t see the “screwing” going on other than at the taxpayer level.
Participant[quote=cooprider]Depends how you look at it.
You can still make millions off people you screw over, run a world class company into the ground, land with a $50 million golden parachute while your peons file bankruptcy, have multiple 10 digit bank accounts, an IQ of 160, and become a industry specialist making $50000/hr training fortune 500 companies how to do the same thing you did and still be an idiot.
Why? Because it’s happening.
Call it karma, fate, judgement, yin yang or whatever you like, but eventually what goes around comes around in this life or the next, or worse, your kids.
Not realizing all actions have a consequence makes you an idiot in my book. Not caring is even worse.[/quote]
Other than taxpayers, who are truly getting screwed (they didn’t ask to participate in the first place), I’m not sure who else is getting “screwed” when these firms go belly-up. The investors should all understand the risks. So long as fraud is not being committed there are no investment victims; just willing participants who lost. Likewise with the employees. I just don’t see the “screwing” going on other than at the taxpayer level.
ParticipantAgreed. The people making millions at these companies are not idiots. They understand how the game is structured and take full – mostly legal – advantage of it. If someone presents you with a (legal) situation where it’s “heads I win huge, and tails I still win but just less” you take it. Period.
The idiots are the shareholders and debt holders that finance these crazy schemes when they should know good and damn well that the incentives are structured to wipe them out… eventually. But the investors are too greedy in the moment to pass up the illusion of short-term returns. The other group of idiots are the politicians, of course, who (de facto) vote in favor of these silly bailout schemes, thereby exascerbating the moral hazard.
ParticipantAgreed. The people making millions at these companies are not idiots. They understand how the game is structured and take full – mostly legal – advantage of it. If someone presents you with a (legal) situation where it’s “heads I win huge, and tails I still win but just less” you take it. Period.
The idiots are the shareholders and debt holders that finance these crazy schemes when they should know good and damn well that the incentives are structured to wipe them out… eventually. But the investors are too greedy in the moment to pass up the illusion of short-term returns. The other group of idiots are the politicians, of course, who (de facto) vote in favor of these silly bailout schemes, thereby exascerbating the moral hazard.
ParticipantAgreed. The people making millions at these companies are not idiots. They understand how the game is structured and take full – mostly legal – advantage of it. If someone presents you with a (legal) situation where it’s “heads I win huge, and tails I still win but just less” you take it. Period.
The idiots are the shareholders and debt holders that finance these crazy schemes when they should know good and damn well that the incentives are structured to wipe them out… eventually. But the investors are too greedy in the moment to pass up the illusion of short-term returns. The other group of idiots are the politicians, of course, who (de facto) vote in favor of these silly bailout schemes, thereby exascerbating the moral hazard.
ParticipantAgreed. The people making millions at these companies are not idiots. They understand how the game is structured and take full – mostly legal – advantage of it. If someone presents you with a (legal) situation where it’s “heads I win huge, and tails I still win but just less” you take it. Period.
The idiots are the shareholders and debt holders that finance these crazy schemes when they should know good and damn well that the incentives are structured to wipe them out… eventually. But the investors are too greedy in the moment to pass up the illusion of short-term returns. The other group of idiots are the politicians, of course, who (de facto) vote in favor of these silly bailout schemes, thereby exascerbating the moral hazard.
ParticipantAgreed. The people making millions at these companies are not idiots. They understand how the game is structured and take full – mostly legal – advantage of it. If someone presents you with a (legal) situation where it’s “heads I win huge, and tails I still win but just less” you take it. Period.
The idiots are the shareholders and debt holders that finance these crazy schemes when they should know good and damn well that the incentives are structured to wipe them out… eventually. But the investors are too greedy in the moment to pass up the illusion of short-term returns. The other group of idiots are the politicians, of course, who (de facto) vote in favor of these silly bailout schemes, thereby exascerbating the moral hazard.
ParticipantGiven what’s transpired with Ambac, MBIA, Bear Stearns, Allied Capital and now Freddie and Fannie, betting against Ackman and Einhorn on the financials has proved hazardous to one’s net worth. Is there any reason to think that Einhorn’s gotten it wrong on Lehman? Not that I can see.
ParticipantGiven what’s transpired with Ambac, MBIA, Bear Stearns, Allied Capital and now Freddie and Fannie, betting against Ackman and Einhorn on the financials has proved hazardous to one’s net worth. Is there any reason to think that Einhorn’s gotten it wrong on Lehman? Not that I can see.
ParticipantGiven what’s transpired with Ambac, MBIA, Bear Stearns, Allied Capital and now Freddie and Fannie, betting against Ackman and Einhorn on the financials has proved hazardous to one’s net worth. Is there any reason to think that Einhorn’s gotten it wrong on Lehman? Not that I can see.
ParticipantGiven what’s transpired with Ambac, MBIA, Bear Stearns, Allied Capital and now Freddie and Fannie, betting against Ackman and Einhorn on the financials has proved hazardous to one’s net worth. Is there any reason to think that Einhorn’s gotten it wrong on Lehman? Not that I can see.
ParticipantGiven what’s transpired with Ambac, MBIA, Bear Stearns, Allied Capital and now Freddie and Fannie, betting against Ackman and Einhorn on the financials has proved hazardous to one’s net worth. Is there any reason to think that Einhorn’s gotten it wrong on Lehman? Not that I can see.
Participant[quote=qwerty007]Why get a mortgage with $12m in hand?[/quote]
This is not a universal rule (everyone’s circumstances are different), but when someone offers you 30-year money at 4% (tax-adjusted), you take it. And if rates go down you can always re-fi into an even lower rate loan.
I have a mortgage on my place which I technically don’t “need.” The rate is 6.25% pre-tax, or about 3.75% after-tax.
Bottom line: you never know what kind of opportunities will knock and how much capital will be required. If someone’s dumb enough to lend you money on silly terms for 30 years then you should probably avail yourself of that opportunity. You may be glad you had that liquidity.
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