[cyphire]

I just read the article what_a_disasta… I think you misread it. Scientists are much less religious. Doctor’s aren’t. You wrote “Thanks for the link to that study jg. That’s fascinating, I always assumed that scientists would be far less religious that the greater population.”

Also – I wonder if they are dogmatic (like jg), or just believe in god (without having an agenda from specific interpretation of the bible).

Some points: Similar people to many that attend religious systems do in fact become physicians.

“We did not think physicians were nearly this religious,” said study author Farr Curlin, Instructor in Medicine and a member of the MacLean Center for Clinical Medical Ethics at the University. “We suspect that people who combine an aptitude for science with an interest in religion and an affinity for public service are particularly attracted to medicine. The responsibility to care for those who are suffering and the rewards of helping those in need resonate throughout most religious traditions.”

Only 60% of physicians are Protestant or Catholic:

“Although physicians are nearly as religious as the general population, their specific beliefs often differ from those of their patients. While more than 80 percent of patients describe themselves as Protestant or Catholic, only 60 percent of physicians come from either group.”

Physicians are 26 times more likely to be Hindu than the overall U.S. population (5.3 percent of doctors vs. 0.2 percent of nonphysicians). Doctors are seven times more likely to be Jewish (14.1 percent vs. 1.9 percent), six times more likely to be Buddhist (1.2 percent vs. 0.2 percent) and five times more likely to be Muslim (2.7 percent vs. 0.5 percent).

They go to church, but they don’t let their beliefs interfere with science or their jobs:

Although doctors are more likely than the general population to attend religious services, they are less willing to “apply their religious beliefs to other areas of life,” the researchers found. Sixty-one percent of doctors say they “try to make sense” of a difficult situation and “decide what to do without relying on God,” while only 29 percent of the general population say the same.

“We have paid a good deal of attention to the religious beliefs of patients and how their faith influences medical decisions,” Curlin said, “but until now, no one has looked in the same way at physicians, the other half of every doctor-patient relationship. These findings lead us to further wonder how doctors’ faiths shape their clinical encounters.”

Inquiries into the religious beliefs, or the lack of them, among U.S. scientists date back to a landmark 1916 survey by psychologist James Leuba that documented widespread disbelief. Leuba found that only 40 percent of scientists believed in a personal God, 15 percent were uncertain and 45 percent disbelieved.

In the 1910’s only 39% of scientists believed in god. Same now. Of top scientists (which i stated previously) only 7%. And of these many are mathematicians (not actually in life sciences). Biologists don’t!

Surveys published in Nature in 1997 and 1998 showed little change since 1916, with only 39 percent of all scientists declaring a personal belief in God. Belief among “leading” scientists, however—defined in this case as members of the National Academy of Sciences—was far lower: only 7 percent in 1998. Curiously, among scientists, mathematicians were the most likely to believe in God and biologists the least likely.

Although physicians have extensive training in biology, the study by Curlin and colleagues paints a very different picture, showing high levels of belief.

The next step, said Curlin, who describes himself as an “orthodox Christian in the Protestant tradition,” is to begin to look at how doctors’ religious (or secular) beliefs and values might influence the way they care for patients.

The Greenwall Foundation and the Robert Wood Johnson Clinical Scholars Program funded the study. Additional authors include John Lantos, Professor in Pediatrics and Medicine; Chad Roach, S.B.; Sarah Sellergren, A.M.; and Marshall Chin, Associate Professor in Medicine.

Note: the author is an orthodox Christian. I am somewhat skeptical if some responders were afraid to answer properly. Only to the extent that no one who believes would say the opposite, but many just want to get along.

[cyphire]

I just read the article what_a_disasta… I think you misread it. Scientists are much less religious. Doctor’s aren’t. You wrote “Thanks for the link to that study jg. That’s fascinating, I always assumed that scientists would be far less religious that the greater population.”

Also – I wonder if they are dogmatic (like jg), or just believe in god (without having an agenda from specific interpretation of the bible).

Some points: Similar people to many that attend religious systems do in fact become physicians.

“We did not think physicians were nearly this religious,” said study author Farr Curlin, Instructor in Medicine and a member of the MacLean Center for Clinical Medical Ethics at the University. “We suspect that people who combine an aptitude for science with an interest in religion and an affinity for public service are particularly attracted to medicine. The responsibility to care for those who are suffering and the rewards of helping those in need resonate throughout most religious traditions.”

Only 60% of physicians are Protestant or Catholic:

“Although physicians are nearly as religious as the general population, their specific beliefs often differ from those of their patients. While more than 80 percent of patients describe themselves as Protestant or Catholic, only 60 percent of physicians come from either group.”

Physicians are 26 times more likely to be Hindu than the overall U.S. population (5.3 percent of doctors vs. 0.2 percent of nonphysicians). Doctors are seven times more likely to be Jewish (14.1 percent vs. 1.9 percent), six times more likely to be Buddhist (1.2 percent vs. 0.2 percent) and five times more likely to be Muslim (2.7 percent vs. 0.5 percent).

They go to church, but they don’t let their beliefs interfere with science or their jobs:

Although doctors are more likely than the general population to attend religious services, they are less willing to “apply their religious beliefs to other areas of life,” the researchers found. Sixty-one percent of doctors say they “try to make sense” of a difficult situation and “decide what to do without relying on God,” while only 29 percent of the general population say the same.

“We have paid a good deal of attention to the religious beliefs of patients and how their faith influences medical decisions,” Curlin said, “but until now, no one has looked in the same way at physicians, the other half of every doctor-patient relationship. These findings lead us to further wonder how doctors’ faiths shape their clinical encounters.”

Inquiries into the religious beliefs, or the lack of them, among U.S. scientists date back to a landmark 1916 survey by psychologist James Leuba that documented widespread disbelief. Leuba found that only 40 percent of scientists believed in a personal God, 15 percent were uncertain and 45 percent disbelieved.

In the 1910’s only 39% of scientists believed in god. Same now. Of top scientists (which i stated previously) only 7%. And of these many are mathematicians (not actually in life sciences). Biologists don’t!

Surveys published in Nature in 1997 and 1998 showed little change since 1916, with only 39 percent of all scientists declaring a personal belief in God. Belief among “leading” scientists, however—defined in this case as members of the National Academy of Sciences—was far lower: only 7 percent in 1998. Curiously, among scientists, mathematicians were the most likely to believe in God and biologists the least likely.

Although physicians have extensive training in biology, the study by Curlin and colleagues paints a very different picture, showing high levels of belief.

The next step, said Curlin, who describes himself as an “orthodox Christian in the Protestant tradition,” is to begin to look at how doctors’ religious (or secular) beliefs and values might influence the way they care for patients.

The Greenwall Foundation and the Robert Wood Johnson Clinical Scholars Program funded the study. Additional authors include John Lantos, Professor in Pediatrics and Medicine; Chad Roach, S.B.; Sarah Sellergren, A.M.; and Marshall Chin, Associate Professor in Medicine.

Note: the author is an orthodox Christian. I am somewhat skeptical if some responders were afraid to answer properly. Only to the extent that no one who believes would say the opposite, but many just want to get along.

[cyphire]

PerryChase and Rustico… Well said. I am not a politically correct person – I tell people flat out that I am an atheist. People usually don’t know how to deal with that but it doesn’t bother me. I would rather tell the truth then have to lie about it. Your fathers story is very similar to my mother-in-laws. I would venture to say that a lot of people pay lip service to all the dogma – as it doesn’t have a basis in reality and they look at the world as it is, not as they want it to be.

Hey jg… Misguided experiments? Silly experiments? We are talking about basic science. Not ‘go run amok’. Bush has pushed his agenda which is only supported by less then 30% of the people. Probably truly a lot less. There are lots of conservative senators who disagree with him. He had to use a veto (a rare occurance in government) as many Republicans crossed the line to vote with the Dems. Bush has withheld billions of dollars in aid around the world because any program in any country which has abortion as a part of it doesn’t get my tax dollars. He wants them to preach abstinence. Even though again most of the country does not agree with him. Your fairy tale views are hurting our country – and you are in the minority view.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20060702/ai_n16528176

The religious right has hijacked our country as Rustico or PerryChase explained. 3 of 4 people in this country do not support him as president. He is left only with people like you. These sick experiments as you call them are supported by the majority of Americans. I wish that Bush had as Christian views on kidnapping, torture, lying, and killing hundreds of thousands of civilians.

Bush never spoke for the country. He frightened people into voting for him. That and a little voter fraud did the rest. It is the job of all Americans to try to push out this culture from our government, and back into peoples homes and churches where it belongs.

[cyphire]

PerryChase and Rustico… Well said. I am not a politically correct person – I tell people flat out that I am an atheist. People usually don’t know how to deal with that but it doesn’t bother me. I would rather tell the truth then have to lie about it. Your fathers story is very similar to my mother-in-laws. I would venture to say that a lot of people pay lip service to all the dogma – as it doesn’t have a basis in reality and they look at the world as it is, not as they want it to be.

Hey jg… Misguided experiments? Silly experiments? We are talking about basic science. Not ‘go run amok’. Bush has pushed his agenda which is only supported by less then 30% of the people. Probably truly a lot less. There are lots of conservative senators who disagree with him. He had to use a veto (a rare occurance in government) as many Republicans crossed the line to vote with the Dems. Bush has withheld billions of dollars in aid around the world because any program in any country which has abortion as a part of it doesn’t get my tax dollars. He wants them to preach abstinence. Even though again most of the country does not agree with him. Your fairy tale views are hurting our country – and you are in the minority view.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20060702/ai_n16528176

The religious right has hijacked our country as Rustico or PerryChase explained. 3 of 4 people in this country do not support him as president. He is left only with people like you. These sick experiments as you call them are supported by the majority of Americans. I wish that Bush had as Christian views on kidnapping, torture, lying, and killing hundreds of thousands of civilians.

Bush never spoke for the country. He frightened people into voting for him. That and a little voter fraud did the rest. It is the job of all Americans to try to push out this culture from our government, and back into peoples homes and churches where it belongs.

[cyphire]

As I previously stated, I won’t get into any more religious motifs. I have overstayed my welcome with these comments, it isn’t the forum for them. I won’t change your minds, you wont change mine. Hey lostkitty – I do love the message of jesus – and wish that the people who profess it so strongly actually paid heed to it (it’s pretty sad when I’m a better Christian than GW!) (do you think that was improperly said jg? I meant it in the spirit of what Christianity is supposed to stand for if you eliminate all the dogma, politics, and all the popes for at least 1000 years.

That being said, sorry you are so voracious about not using embryos. The embryos in question are frozen by couples who have used invitro techniques because they couldnt have children naturally. Are you against this? They would also be thrown away if not used. When I die all my body parts will go to anyone that can use them. I’m an organ donor. It makes me happy that my parts could be used to prolong someones life. Why can’t embryos be used the same way? They weren’t created to make experiments, and the vast majority of people polled (was a study this week) who have these embryos which are going to be destroyed think its fine.

Again – you have been taught something in your religion. That life starts with conception and that the moment an egg is fertilized it is a person. As someone with a scientific nature it angers me that when a few cells (literally a tiny mass of cells at the point an embryo is) cannot be used for research to help mankind, when they are being used anyway except for federal funding (the boat has sailed on religion being used to stop all science).

So once again – I get words like gruesome, Nazi-like, etc. because you think that what you were taught is fact. Sorry – from my perspective you are just a misguided person who is standing in the way of progress. It is ultimately up to me for the sake of my children to try and stop the people who are dangerous to our society.

I tried to form this without using any meanness or rants. It’s just my opinion. By the way, there are lots of republican religious folks (not the far right) which back the measure. They don’t consider it Nazi-like nor do they think the world was formed in 7 days and that it is only 8000 years old (or something like that).

[cyphire]

As I previously stated, I won’t get into any more religious motifs. I have overstayed my welcome with these comments, it isn’t the forum for them. I won’t change your minds, you wont change mine. Hey lostkitty – I do love the message of jesus – and wish that the people who profess it so strongly actually paid heed to it (it’s pretty sad when I’m a better Christian than GW!) (do you think that was improperly said jg? I meant it in the spirit of what Christianity is supposed to stand for if you eliminate all the dogma, politics, and all the popes for at least 1000 years.

That being said, sorry you are so voracious about not using embryos. The embryos in question are frozen by couples who have used invitro techniques because they couldnt have children naturally. Are you against this? They would also be thrown away if not used. When I die all my body parts will go to anyone that can use them. I’m an organ donor. It makes me happy that my parts could be used to prolong someones life. Why can’t embryos be used the same way? They weren’t created to make experiments, and the vast majority of people polled (was a study this week) who have these embryos which are going to be destroyed think its fine.

Again – you have been taught something in your religion. That life starts with conception and that the moment an egg is fertilized it is a person. As someone with a scientific nature it angers me that when a few cells (literally a tiny mass of cells at the point an embryo is) cannot be used for research to help mankind, when they are being used anyway except for federal funding (the boat has sailed on religion being used to stop all science).

So once again – I get words like gruesome, Nazi-like, etc. because you think that what you were taught is fact. Sorry – from my perspective you are just a misguided person who is standing in the way of progress. It is ultimately up to me for the sake of my children to try and stop the people who are dangerous to our society.

I tried to form this without using any meanness or rants. It’s just my opinion. By the way, there are lots of republican religious folks (not the far right) which back the measure. They don’t consider it Nazi-like nor do they think the world was formed in 7 days and that it is only 8000 years old (or something like that).

[cyphire]

jg.. You are a pisser! How did you know that I just got back inside from dancing naked in my backyard (we do it every year). Anyway, lets keep the G word out of these posts… I will try to be good and not laugh at your beliefs anymore.. I promise!

[cyphire]

jg.. You are a pisser! How did you know that I just got back inside from dancing naked in my backyard (we do it every year). Anyway, lets keep the G word out of these posts… I will try to be good and not laugh at your beliefs anymore.. I promise!

[cyphire]

The largest factor is public perception – and mob psychology. It takes time for perceptions to change, especially when there is so much conflicting information.

Realtors are saying (many of them) – wow what a great time to buy! Some are falling for this. True price information is passed around this site, but the general media doesn’t really cover it.

The economy doesn’t suck yet, I believe that the interrelated stock market, bond market, hedge fund nonsense, all getting pressure from US debt and the housing market will start accelerating the pressure on consumers. There will be an ever increasing flight to risk avoidance, that means people selling and downsizing, and people, banks and others taking losses to get out. More pricing pressure, more pain. Right now things are holding together (look at the stock market), but an ever increasing shift will start hitting the market. Interest rates are not going down (more news on wall street) and there is a huge amount of mortgage assets which are not worth what they are written as – but as of now are only starting to be recognized (look at last week Bear-Sterns / ML issue).

As things get worse, employers will be afraid to hire, wages will tank, consumers will get leery, banks will tighten credit and we will have a massive move to the downside. Is this very bearish? Absolutely. Am I right? Who knows! I would bet that this will play out, and if it doesn’t, I also won’t be surprised. But I think I am ahead of the curve on this, especially because i am not prejudiced by having debt, owning a home, or have exposure to being fired / laid off.

[cyphire]

The largest factor is public perception – and mob psychology. It takes time for perceptions to change, especially when there is so much conflicting information.

Realtors are saying (many of them) – wow what a great time to buy! Some are falling for this. True price information is passed around this site, but the general media doesn’t really cover it.

The economy doesn’t suck yet, I believe that the interrelated stock market, bond market, hedge fund nonsense, all getting pressure from US debt and the housing market will start accelerating the pressure on consumers. There will be an ever increasing flight to risk avoidance, that means people selling and downsizing, and people, banks and others taking losses to get out. More pricing pressure, more pain. Right now things are holding together (look at the stock market), but an ever increasing shift will start hitting the market. Interest rates are not going down (more news on wall street) and there is a huge amount of mortgage assets which are not worth what they are written as – but as of now are only starting to be recognized (look at last week Bear-Sterns / ML issue).

As things get worse, employers will be afraid to hire, wages will tank, consumers will get leery, banks will tighten credit and we will have a massive move to the downside. Is this very bearish? Absolutely. Am I right? Who knows! I would bet that this will play out, and if it doesn’t, I also won’t be surprised. But I think I am ahead of the curve on this, especially because i am not prejudiced by having debt, owning a home, or have exposure to being fired / laid off.

[cyphire]

Thanks lostkitty – I like your posts and I thank you for sticking up for me. JG doesn’t like my religion comments, my tax position, and my estate tax position. He also doesn’t like that I bash George Bush. I feel very strongly about these topics, but probably shouldn’t use this forum to vent them… But it’s been an escalating thing and if jg will stop attacking me, I will try to keep on topic… I promise jg.

And keep up the posts lostkitty… I am one of your biggest fans!

[cyphire]

Thanks lostkitty – I like your posts and I thank you for sticking up for me. JG doesn’t like my religion comments, my tax position, and my estate tax position. He also doesn’t like that I bash George Bush. I feel very strongly about these topics, but probably shouldn’t use this forum to vent them… But it’s been an escalating thing and if jg will stop attacking me, I will try to keep on topic… I promise jg.

And keep up the posts lostkitty… I am one of your biggest fans!

[cyphire]

Let me chime in Myito…

First of all, I absolutely see that some people will buy now and that they are less concerned about equity loss then a perceived stability for their family. We have all been sold the ‘if you don’t own a home, you are a loser’ concept for so long, that it makes it tough to emotionally deal with it.

As you were so forthcoming with your finances, let me ask you a question… You have 300K in cash in the bank (lets disregard your 500K in 401k, etc. as it is for retirement and is only a couple (a few) years of retirement income (based on my guess about your home situation) how much will you have after the downpayment? or is that net of the downpayment?

The reason I ask is that I think everyone has a different level of risk exposure. I did own a home until December, and when I needed to sell (it was too far to commute for my daughter’s school), I decided not to buy at what I consider still very close to the top of the market.

We currently live in am amazing house in La Jolla. Instead of paying 2.5-2.8M for this house, we are renting it for over 6K/month. We have a years lease with a years option at the same price. We plan on being here for 2 years. If we really love it, we will stay longer. It has a pool, 5 bedrooms, ocean view, gated, compound, and was completely renovated with all granite, marble, body showers, etc. It is on a kid friendly street (why we moved here) and is just great.

By your logic, I should hate this place… After all we are renting. But so far I love it and my kids love it and have friends on the street already. So not every rental is hell, some are off the hook!

If I owned this house, and the market just stayed even for a few years (although I do expect it to go down significantly as the economy cools), at 6.5% & taxes that represents a monthly cost of 15,700/month vs. 6,500/month. I also don’t have to fix anything, pay for the pool guy and the gardener – only utilities. From a tax perspective, only the first 1.1 million is deductible so you can reduce the 15,700 to 12,700. So if the house doesn’t go up in value, I saved about 75K per year.

If the market goes down (personally I think that it is a house of cards) I could lose from 100-700K on this house if I owned it. While it would not hurt me badly financially I don’t want to lose that kind of money.

The overwhelming point for me is that I think we are in a bubble coming down and you don’t seem to feel that we are, or are being illogical in ignoring it. If you are guessing that prices will stay the same, or go up thats fine – you made your choice. You could be right, I am not an oracle. When I see what is going on the the mortgage markets, the price of homes relative to demand, the price of homes relative to the rate of inflation, and more importantly the lagging of the hit to the economy as things soften, I am betting that prices will come way down. I think that the economy will go in the crapper, and a lot of people will be holding on to mortgages (and having lost the equity they have put down) that they wish they did not have.

Myito…. could you imagine the economy softening, a recession / depression hitting and what the true value of these homes which were 1/3rd the price 10-12 years ago? What is the percentage chance that this will happen vs. the chance that prices will start increasing? All while the level of affordability has gone into the single digits?

Personally I will keep my extra 70-170K per year I am saving from renting if I have made the right call. I can’t imagine a scenario where it would be in my families best interest to buy a highly leveraged asset as prices are still falling. But if this makes you comfortable I wish you excellent luck!

p.s. Are you buying a new Carmel Valley, or 4S home which is being constructed? Just wondering.

[cyphire]

Let me chime in Myito…

First of all, I absolutely see that some people will buy now and that they are less concerned about equity loss then a perceived stability for their family. We have all been sold the ‘if you don’t own a home, you are a loser’ concept for so long, that it makes it tough to emotionally deal with it.

As you were so forthcoming with your finances, let me ask you a question… You have 300K in cash in the bank (lets disregard your 500K in 401k, etc. as it is for retirement and is only a couple (a few) years of retirement income (based on my guess about your home situation) how much will you have after the downpayment? or is that net of the downpayment?

The reason I ask is that I think everyone has a different level of risk exposure. I did own a home until December, and when I needed to sell (it was too far to commute for my daughter’s school), I decided not to buy at what I consider still very close to the top of the market.

We currently live in am amazing house in La Jolla. Instead of paying 2.5-2.8M for this house, we are renting it for over 6K/month. We have a years lease with a years option at the same price. We plan on being here for 2 years. If we really love it, we will stay longer. It has a pool, 5 bedrooms, ocean view, gated, compound, and was completely renovated with all granite, marble, body showers, etc. It is on a kid friendly street (why we moved here) and is just great.

By your logic, I should hate this place… After all we are renting. But so far I love it and my kids love it and have friends on the street already. So not every rental is hell, some are off the hook!

If I owned this house, and the market just stayed even for a few years (although I do expect it to go down significantly as the economy cools), at 6.5% & taxes that represents a monthly cost of 15,700/month vs. 6,500/month. I also don’t have to fix anything, pay for the pool guy and the gardener – only utilities. From a tax perspective, only the first 1.1 million is deductible so you can reduce the 15,700 to 12,700. So if the house doesn’t go up in value, I saved about 75K per year.

If the market goes down (personally I think that it is a house of cards) I could lose from 100-700K on this house if I owned it. While it would not hurt me badly financially I don’t want to lose that kind of money.

The overwhelming point for me is that I think we are in a bubble coming down and you don’t seem to feel that we are, or are being illogical in ignoring it. If you are guessing that prices will stay the same, or go up thats fine – you made your choice. You could be right, I am not an oracle. When I see what is going on the the mortgage markets, the price of homes relative to demand, the price of homes relative to the rate of inflation, and more importantly the lagging of the hit to the economy as things soften, I am betting that prices will come way down. I think that the economy will go in the crapper, and a lot of people will be holding on to mortgages (and having lost the equity they have put down) that they wish they did not have.

Myito…. could you imagine the economy softening, a recession / depression hitting and what the true value of these homes which were 1/3rd the price 10-12 years ago? What is the percentage chance that this will happen vs. the chance that prices will start increasing? All while the level of affordability has gone into the single digits?

Personally I will keep my extra 70-170K per year I am saving from renting if I have made the right call. I can’t imagine a scenario where it would be in my families best interest to buy a highly leveraged asset as prices are still falling. But if this makes you comfortable I wish you excellent luck!

p.s. Are you buying a new Carmel Valley, or 4S home which is being constructed? Just wondering.

[cyphire]

Sorry – What I said was uncalled for. I retract it. I don’t have an excuse but try to look at it from my perspective…

Bush vetoing the stem cell initiative really pissed me off. Again – he talks about morals – but in my opinion, he doesn’t have any.

Also – if you saw people worshiping peanut butter and jelly sandwiches – you would probably like them to keep it to themselves. I see no difference in most religious views. Other than the peanut butter actually provides sustenance. I would like people to keep their beliefs to themselves, it’s not the kind of thing I think children (mine) should be exposed to.

I apologize for calling all religious people uneducated. Without adding fuel to the fire, I do believe however that at a certain point in intellectual ability, the percentage of ‘believers’ goes way down. Just my opinion even though it’s not politically correct.

[Author]

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