[carli]

[quote=bearishgurl]

Oh, and carli? I’m not “afraid” of anyone. There are many Muslim young people (both male and female) occupying retail and restaurant positions around me and I have had nothing but good experiences with them. [/quote]

Interesting, now you say outright that you were referring to Muslims in your earlier statement when you wrote you were against those who “want to emigrate to the US solely to spread their (incompatible, non-western) religious beliefs and customs to Americans and also onto their own offspring, later born in the US”.

Do you realize what you’re saying? You’re specifying Islam as an “incompatible, non-western” religion. Incompatible with what? By non-western I don’t think you mean eastern, I think you must mean non-U.S. But in the U.S., one of our basic rights is freedom of religion, remember?

This country was built on the premise that there is NO SUCH THING as an “incompatible” religion. The concept of a certain religion being “incompatible” is completely un-American. In the U.S., religions don’t need to be compatible with anything. That’s why it’s called freedom.

If Islam is an “incompatible” religion here in the U.S., please tell us what are the “compatible” religions? Is it just Christianity or are there others? And who decides? Would that be Trump, by chance?

And you say you like the Muslims you come across in stores and restaurants. Okay so you want to give a pass to the ones you meet, who come across as pleasant to you, but those nameless, faceless other immigrants who are trying to enter our country, somehow they should all be banned so they can’t, as you say, “spread their (incompatible, non-western) religious beliefs and customs to Americans and also onto their own offspring, later born in the US”

Do you realize what you are saying? Is this a slip or do you realize how blatantly un-American your statements are?

[carli]

[quote=FlyerInHi]

Hi Carli, now that Trump is the nominee, what is your assessment of his support among the American people?

I feel Trump supporters have always been the same and they have always been there. They were contained but they just found their man in Trump; and they are now unbound. That’s about 30% to 40% of the population.

Then we have 20% of the population that is waking up to Trump being too scary.

Finally 40% of the population that I too would call “too smart to go for Trump.”[/quote]

Hi FIH, I can’t speculate about who these people are or what motivates them to support Trump, but it’s bizarre to me that a decent chunk of the population apparently lacks the critical thinking skills to realize how far back he would set our country if he were to become President.

I get that these people feel disenfranchised/pissed off by politicians and love Trump’s shoot-from-the-hip lack of political correctness, but how can they possibly think he is qualified in any way to be President of the U.S.? And how are they not instead totally freaked out by how dangerous he would be?

During all my years in NYC, Trump was dismissed as a total laughingstock, always making an ass of himself. He never made any good deals, especially since his only motivation was his ego. But now it seems the world (or at least the Republican party) has become topsy turvey and Trump is somehow now a candidate for President. It’s surreal to me. Seriously, I cannot imagine who thinks this is a good idea. Scary.

All I can say is I’m relieved to see that Hilary is leading by 45% to Trump’s 38% in the polls, for now – http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2016-general-election-trump-vs-clinton

[carli]

[quote=flu]
For me, I would be slightly terrified if the majority of the Americans are like BG. But, frankly I have faith there are more people in this country are more like my neighbors and people like you Carli. I just need to be reminded of that every so often. Thanks.[/quote]

You’re welcome, flu. Just returning the favor, I guess, as many of your posts have reminded me that people whose opinion/sanity/intelligence I respect and count on are still out there. Phew.

Funny thing is I made a bet w/my teenager, who was lobbying for a car last December when we had a dinnertime political discussion and my position was that people are too smart to go for Trump, that if Trump became the nominee, I would buy her a car. Never in my wildest dreams did I think that would happen, which is why I’ve started to lose a little faith in my judgment about humanity. Luckily for me, two things happened: 1) Although Trump won the nomination, the intensifying spotlight is further illuminating all the reasons why he’d be too scary for our country and people are starting to wake up to it and 2) I realized a Matchbox car still qualifies as a car.

[carli]

BG, do you realize how out-of-touch your comment is, about being afraid of immigrants who “want to emigrate to the US solely to spread their (incompatible, non-western) religious beliefs and customs to Americans and also onto their own offspring, later born in the US”??

Um, wasn’t that what our country was founded on? Freedom of religion and all that?

If they weren’t so frightening, comments like yours (mimicking Trump’s) would be truly comical.

Of course our country needs to guard against terrorists, but that does not extend to keeping out people of “incompatible non-western religious beliefs.” And please, do tell, what are those religious beliefs that are incompatible with those of us in the U.S.??

And you wonder why people consider you ignorant and racist.

[carli]

[quote=joec][quote=carli]Interesting piece in today’s NYT about the concept of passion and finding the right career fit by Angela Duckworth, the person who wrote that book about grit that we were discussing on this thread awhile ago.

She says some of what I was trying to express earlier, especially aimed at those young people who’ve made it through college without defining a singular career passion. I agree they should not panic. Sure, they have to find a job and pay the bills, but as she writes, “interests are developed, not discovered” and tells young graduates to “Consider your first job as an opportunity to begin an unpredictable, inefficient, trial-and-error process.”

I like this advice for young adults, especially because they often get bombarded with the idea that they “must” have a passion right out of college (and preferably before) or they’re doomed to be less-than-successful: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/05/jobs/graduating-and-looking-for-your-passion-just-be-patient.html%5B/quote%5D

This is nice in concept, but in reality, does this really work?

It may make more sense to at least cover the basics and get a degree where your chance for employment is exceedingly high, then pursue passions after you have something paying the bills and can make your self sufficient…

Unlike Brad Pitt, I doubt many actors make it after waiting tables or doing menial jobs, especially in this competitive global workforce/economy.

You’re better off being Masi Oka or that other Asian actor from Community who was a licensed MD and pursue acting or any other work after you can get stable “decent” pay in another career you can choose to leave IMO.

I’m sure if they talked to a lot of undeclared -> weak major grads who are having trouble finding work, their thinking and knowledge now would make them change what they studied.

Even though we will probably all change our career paths/job (I’ve changed myself), I think getting at least stable pay early on will buy you time to live/survive/travel, etc…or possibly start a new career as well.

Unless you have wealthy parents who can cover for you to let you find that long term thing.[/quote]

The point of the piece was not to encourage young people to ignore future income potential. It was to encourage them to move in the direction of their interests (not the same as chucking all rational thinking). The other point was to seek purpose and try different things when you’re young, and then the final bit of advice was to finish strong.

What I took away from this was that youth is the time to experiment and not get freaked out if you don’t have the perfect career path (i.e. your “passion”) figured out at graduation. This doesn’t require that you be someone with a wealthy family or other financial safety net, it just means it’s better to take a tiny bit of risk at a young age in exchange for a crucial long term reward, which is your contentment/satisfaction (and more likely long-term success) in a career. As they’re doing this, of course, most young people will need to at least find jobs that will pay the bills.

This seems to me to be the rational, middle-of-the-road approach, as the other two options are either on the carefree end of the spectrum where you just wing it and follow your “passion” without regard to making a living, or, on the other conservative end of the spectrum, you play it totally safe and only focus on maximizing your income potential.

[carli]

Interesting piece in today’s NYT about the concept of passion and finding the right career fit by Angela Duckworth, the person who wrote that book about grit that we were discussing on this thread awhile ago.

She says some of what I was trying to express earlier, especially aimed at those young people who’ve made it through college without defining a singular career passion. I agree they should not panic. Sure, they have to find a job and pay the bills, but as she writes, “interests are developed, not discovered” and tells young graduates to “Consider your first job as an opportunity to begin an unpredictable, inefficient, trial-and-error process.”

I like this advice for young adults, especially because they often get bombarded with the idea that they “must” have a passion right out of college (and preferably before) or they’re doomed to be less-than-successful: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/05/jobs/graduating-and-looking-for-your-passion-just-be-patient.html

[carli]

Flyer, I’m not sure what you mean by you’ve encouraged your kids to develop their passion and discover a clear path to their goals. That’s what all supportive parents do. But it’s a stretch to imply that the way to ensure happiness is to have a clear direction upon college graduation. Also depends on what your definition of “lost” is…a kid who graduates from college without having a specific career in mind may not feel lost but rather open to exciting options. It’s all in the perspective. There’s no question that someone probably won’t be happy or successful by forever wandering aimlessly through life, but that’s not what we’re talking about.

Not taking anything away from you or your kids, who have all apparently discovered their passions early on, but there are way more examples of uber successful (and presumably happy) people who either stumbled upon something or tried various paths until they found their exact passion or direction as they went along.

This discussion reminds me of the question of which is better, a broad liberal arts education or a more purpose-driven STEM education? It could be argued either way and there is value in each. Both can produce extremely happy and successful people in any field. There’s not a one-size-fits-all formula, and it puzzles me when people insist that the path they’ve taken to success and happiness is the path everyone should take.

[carli]

Funny that everyone is assuming he’ll do something related to his degree. I was an English major, and the furthest thing from my mind was becoming a teacher. I realize times have changed but industries are not so specific these days that there won’t be room for a go-getter with a sociology degree to make a way for himself in many different areas.

Also, BG, although he may end up in SoCal someday, I don’t think his priority is to make a life for himself around here. It’s to go out and experience the world. I spent most of my career (and his childhood) in NYC, as an English major with a lucrative career in executive sales management, and who knows, he could end up following a similar path, even with a sociology degree.

[carli]

[quote=bearishgurl][quote=carli]I keep hearing about Duckworth’s “Grit” book and it seems the term itself is the word du jour. I read the same review in the Times a couple weeks ago and thought about buying it but didn’t, partly because there were a few criticisms mentioned in the NYT review that turned me off. For example, the reviewer says “Duckworth never questions the values of a society geared towards winning” so if the author is only going to give a bunch of examples of people who have grit and pull themselves up by their bootstraps, that’s awesome and could be a fun and inspiring read, and it might be something I’d flip through, but I’m more interested in the deeper discussion. I’m not dismissing grit as a concept or important character trait but I just don’t care to read another Ted talk book.

And, yes, no doubt the Peace Corps is an achievement. Talk about competition – it’s tough these days to be accepted, probably because the job market was so tight in recent years that the Peace Corps became even more attractive for new graduates. I have no idea if my son will be accepted to a program and country of interest as the application/interview/placement process can take two years. And FIH thanks for your stamp of approval on his sociology major. 😉 I have no idea if he will ever use it specifically in a career, nor does he, as he has not developed a passion yet. It’s gravy if a kid has a specific career intention after school, but most don’t, and that’s fine by us. I have no doubt he’ll be successful and look forward to watching his journey. Good news is he has already demonstrated plenty of grit (yes, even in high school and the college admissions process!) so he’ll be fine.[/quote]carli, I believe your soon-to-be graduate is smart but most college graduates today can’t afford the luxury to continue to search for their “passion” after college graduation. They have to start paying rent and other bills and even start paying on (often HUGE) student loans within six months of graduating! They can’t bother with applying to the Peace Corps (however noble that might seem) cuz they need to start making an actual living wage ASAP, preferably yesterday. As you stated earlier on this thread, your spouse recently opined that your soon-to-be graduate is now “off the (family?) payroll.” (You have more kids coming down the pike who will likely apply for university.)

Had your soon-to-be graduate elected to major in social work instead of sociology, he could have immediately gone to work in any county in CA as an aid worker (TANF/SNAP), Medi-Cal worker or APS/CPS worker for the giant CDHS and their subsidiaries (the behemoth HHSA in 58 counties). These agencies always have openings. Yes, he would have only started out making $45-$50K, but that is actually a living wage in many CA counties. In addition, he would have received leave benefits upon employment, all other benefits within one month of employment, a clear career path laid out before him and become vested in a DBP after five years of service. Most agencies also offer educational benefits, which would have nearly paid for him to earn his MSW in the evenings.

Of course, I’m not saying here that a social work career would have been right for your son as I don’t know him. But it is a much more “practical” degree than sociology (sans a teaching credential).

A new university graduate has to get their foot in the door somewhere to begin their careers. It doesn’t matter much at this point in their lives if they feel they will be “passionate” about their first jobs … or not. They need to start acting like adults and taking responsibility for themselves (and their student loan(s), if they have any). If they take another year+ to “find themselves” after college, their more savvy (and hungry) “brethren” will have snapped up all the entry-level FT jobs around their CA campus using their freshly-minted diplomas and academic-advisor reccos as “street cred.” The early bird gets the worm. I never had to insist that my kid(s) get FT jobs right out of college. They already had one lined up before graduation without any input from their parents.

The vast majority of boomers took FT work right out of HS/college which many millenials today would consider “slogging” and beneath them. Or, in the alternative, boomers immediately joined (or were drafted into) the military right out of HS/college. Yes, even the ones who had college degrees :=0

Our generation valued independence from parents ASAP and needed/wanted to support ourselves (with a spouse often in tow) straight out of the gate. Fortunately, for us, getting out on our own was a bit more doable (financially) then than it is now.[/quote]

Wow, BG, thanks for the tips! Have you considered a second job with the UCLA career counseling department? I hear they offer great benefits. 😉

Seriously, though, not to worry. There’s no debt as he had that great scholarship and even if not, we had already agreed to cover him through college so there wouldn’t be debt. He saved up a couple grand and he’s ready to be on his own. He’ll live in LA with roomies while working an entry level job in the university, hoping to be accepted at Peace Corps, after which he hopes to work for an NGO.

Or I should say, that’s his hope as of May 18, 2016, at 2:01pm. It will evolve in a zillion ways between now and the time he actually settles into a career. And that’s the beauty of starting out, especially with minimal overhead. You can try doing whatever, and if it doesn’t work out, you move on. Not everyone wants to focus on the quickest possible way to make the most amount of money. What interests you and is driven by your priorities would not interest him one bit, and vice versa.

His father and I specifically do not offer unsolicited advice or weigh in with what we’d do in his situation (unless he asks), as the whole point is this is now his life and career, not ours. We’re excited to watch it unfold and not at all worried about his ability to support himself to his own standards, which will undoubtedly change over time. And if you knew him, you wouldn’t be either. But anyway, it’s interesting to hear your ideas from the other end of the spectrum, charting the most conservative future possible for him.

[carli]

I keep hearing about Duckworth’s “Grit” book and it seems the term itself is the word du jour. I read the same review in the Times a couple weeks ago and thought about buying it but didn’t, partly because there were a few criticisms mentioned in the NYT review that turned me off. For example, the reviewer says “Duckworth never questions the values of a society geared towards winning” so if the author is only going to give a bunch of examples of people who have grit and pull themselves up by their bootstraps, that’s awesome and could be a fun and inspiring read, and it might be something I’d flip through, but I’m more interested in the deeper discussion. I’m not dismissing grit as a concept or important character trait but I just don’t care to read another Ted talk book.

And, yes, no doubt the Peace Corps is an achievement. Talk about competition – it’s tough these days to be accepted, probably because the job market was so tight in recent years that the Peace Corps became even more attractive for new graduates. I have no idea if my son will be accepted to a program and country of interest as the application/interview/placement process can take two years. And FIH thanks for your stamp of approval on his sociology major. 😉 I have no idea if he will ever use it specifically in a career, nor does he, as he has not developed a passion yet. It’s gravy if a kid has a specific career intention after school, but most don’t, and that’s fine by us. I have no doubt he’ll be successful and look forward to watching his journey. Good news is he has already demonstrated plenty of grit (yes, even in high school and the college admissions process!) so he’ll be fine.

[carli]

FIH, you say, “We value famous brands. Famous brands command more money. Everyone knows that and companies use branding as a competitive advantage. Sure, brand doesn’t necessarily mean quality. But in general, it’s a tried and true way of building marketabilty and increasing profits. All else being equal, good branding is always better.
I believe that if a family has to pay $200k extra for good branding, or a child has to compete harder, it’s worth the premium. It’s like a company spending boatloads of money and creativity on marketing, resources that don’t go into research to make the product better. That’s my marketplace point of view.”

OK, let’s take your branding/marketplace analogy one step further. Say there’s a top ice cream brand, like Ben & Jerry’s, available for sale. Is Ben & Jerry’s brand worth the same to, for example, GE as it is to Kraft Foods? Each potential buyer would look at its own balance sheet and see if they can afford the acquisition, how it would fit into their long term goals, product portfolio, what their perceived ROI is, etc. So maybe Kraft Foods sees Ben & Jerry’s as an outstanding acquisition and is willing to spend almost anything for the brand because it fits with their business model, they like the ROI, etc, but GE looks at the brand and takes a pass, as it doesn’t fit with their business model, mission, they think the ROI stinks, etc.

Just because something has excellent branding doesn’t mean it’s automatically the best fit or choice for everyone.

Taking it a bit further, what if a company knows it needs to make multiple acquisitions in order to thrive (i.e. a family needs to send 3-4 kids to college? You said it’s worth $200,000 to make a choice based on brand, but what if it’s 3-4 x that amount for multiple kids?) In that case, most companies would realize they shouldn’t choose the top brand but instead should spread their limited resources out over 3-4 lower tier ice cream brands (Are Dreyers, Edy’s and Breyers available? If so, they probably have a better ROI than Ben & Jerry’s, ha!)

I could go on and on with your marketplace analogy, but you get the gist. With the college education buying decision, the “all things being equal, pick the best brand” idea does not work for many reasons. First is that things are never all equal. Too many nuances per kid, per school, per family, per finances, etc.

[carli]

FIH, you say, “A good college degree, in a competitive major, is objective measure that someone has work ethics and had done the hard work. It cannot be taken away.”

True, but that doesn’t paint the full picture. There is so much more to finding an extremely lucrative career, which sounds like your main goal.

Believe me, I’m not knocking a kid or parents who are driven and hardworking, or who have prestigious degrees, and our own family is mainly in that camp. I just don’t think that being a hard worker and joining the race for a top tier school are the same thing. And many parents who have been involved in this with their kids realize it’s better to find the right fit for your kid’s college education than just shoot for the most prestigious school. If the kid is motivated, good stuff happens, but no amount of parental pressure is going to make a kid be financially successful.

Do you have kids who are in the college/pre-college environment? It’s hard to explain the intensity of it if you haven’t experienced it firsthand. Our kids have attended the top performing h.s. in SD County (ranked 5th in CA and 73rd in US according to US News World Report, if I recall correctly), where most are superstars. There are literally dozens of kids in each graduating class who are equally qualified to attend any school their hearts desire. But not all get in. Some don’t even get in to their top 3 or 4 choices. Doesn’t mean they won’t be super financially successful, if that’s what their focus is. Along the way, they’ll be measured by all kinds of gauges, some objective, some not.

[carli]

[quote=flu][quote=carli][quote=flu]You know. A lot of you are doing nothing more than stereotyping foreign students as being bookworms. A lot of you are stereotyping asians student hard and work hard simply to get a good grade for the sake of getting good grades. And a lot of you keep harping on it being completely unnecessary to work as hard as some asians do….

You know, has it occurred to any of you that maybe the reason why asians work so damn hard is because things aren’t exactly easy for asians, especially here in america, and yet asians are determined to just do OK, and that sometimes in order to just be slightly above average, asians have to work sometimes twice as hard to just to be slightly above average in this country?

Look, for every different type of people, somethings work and some things don’t. And sometimes what might work for your life path might not work for someone else. Life isn’t fair. Everyone isn’t dealt the same hand. Some of us, in order to achieve something near equal or slightly above average have to work a lot more to get there than others. The only choices you have are (1) are you willing to do it or (2) not.

I won’t judge people for what opportunities they want to piss away. Or what they consider what is too difficult for them to try, or “too much more, or too competitive”. That’s fine. We all have are own limits and we all have our own different expectations. But don’t give me this shit that on one hand you don’t want to put the time/effort/money/initiative into doing one thing, and then bitch, belittle, and rain on someone else’s parade that is willing to put the time/effort/perseverance to do something you didn’t want to do, or didn’t care, or thought it wasn’t worth the “too much work” effort, and then complain later on why they seem to have better opportunity now than you do.

A lot of asians work very hard because we want to better ourselves. And frankly, for a lot of us, we have to work a heck of a lot harder to accomplish things simply because, let’s face it, we have to, in order to achieve the same level of accomplishment as others…. there is a sort of glass ceiling in many cases, and a “fraternity” in many industries here in the US and in many professions that tend to be, for the lack of the better word, culturally white. Banking, wall street, partners at law firms, VP’s/directors at VCs, entertainment, etc, and that’s even for asians born, raised, here in the U.S. Things that, frankly for many asians, will not be obtainable in both 1st generation, and in many cases 2nd generation. Part of this is cultural, and part of this is just well, generational, and part of this connection/buddy buddy system.

I’ll give you an example. Flyer is from a family that’s been here for many generations. As such ,his roots has been established here, his ancestors has paved a the way a lot, so he and his family definitely have a lot more opportunities. For him and his family. All this “exccessive work” that asians apparently do that many of you kinda thumb your nose over, flyer’s kids don’t have to do. Because, for example, even if his kids weren’t completely the top of their class (which by all means, I’m not suggesting they aren’t I’m sure they are stellar), I seriously doubt his kids are going to have a difficult finding/doing something productive, and making a difference.

Ok, so now, my parents were technical people from a foreign country generation 1. Their only opportunity was to come here on a government scholarship to study. They had no opportunity to work on wall street, their language precluded them from being in management, and some my background and sphere of influence tend to be around technical/engineering related things. How likely am I going to find a C-level executive position in the entertainment industry versus flyer’s kids?

Do I need to work a lot harder if I want to achieve the same level of success as flyer’s kids. Most certainly. Do I wish I had the opportunity his kids have? Certainly. And I jealous that his kids have that opportunity? (honestly, yes sort of ). But at the same time, life ain’t fair. So deal with it. If I want to be successful, I need to work my ass off because of the cards I was dealt. It’s as simple as that…or I simply don’t care and settle for something else..That’s a choice too. It might be your choice, if you’re dealt the same hand as I was, but that’s not my choice. I want to be at the same level as others that are dealt a better hand. At the same time, I’m not going to sit on my ass and just cry about how unfair things are. So fine, if you don’t want to put the time and effort into improving things, that’s fine. That’s respectable. Maybe you don’t need to. Maybe you have cards that were dealt much better than other asians. Fine. You win. Give yourself a pat on the back that you won the “I came out of the lucky pussy” award.

All you people that think that adding quotas, foreign limits, restrictions, discriminatory rules/laws is really going to stop other foreigners trying to be successful are dead wrong. Yes, it’s more frustrating, yes a lot of us ends up saying “what the fvck?”. And yes, you can slow people down who really want to strive to better themselves. But reality is, you will never be able to stop people who have that much passion and that determined to succeed, and doing so does nothing to improve your own situation. Many of us are already use to getting kicked around, picking up after your bullshit you deal us, and frankly as a result, many of us can take a lot more shit than most people probably can who haven’t gone through shit, can. And yet, we still do ok.

But to say these foreigners aren’t as good, aren’t as qualified. Well, that’s just plain ignorant. Many of these foreigners are scientists and researchers and academia. I don’t see many of you people harping on them rushing to get your masters or phd or interested in doing research.. I’m guessing probably not worth your time, energy, and probably doesnt “pay enough”…Afterall, I’m sure many of you, winning the “I came out of the lucky pussy” award, have that fabulous C-level executive position because you knew someone that knew someone that knew someone + had reasonably good credentials (maybe not perfect, but not bad…good enough)[/quote]

As someone who also won the “I came out of the lucky pussy” award, you may not consider me qualified to weigh in, but here goes. I was never doubting that you and many others may work harder than most who were born with certain advantages. I see it all the time. And as a female, I especially hear ya about the lack of fairness and like you, I’ve learned to work extra hard and just deal with it, because the statistics are not much better for women in C-level positions than they are for Asians (stats here for banking, where you can click on individual companies to get race/gender breakdowns: http://www.businessinsider.com/wall-street-bank-diversity-2015-8 and here for tech: http://www.businessinsider.com/diversity-in-tech-2014-2014-7?op=1)

My point was that I don’t think we should mix up a willingness to work hard with the extreme and misguided drive to participate in and win the race for admissions to a top tier school. It’s especially misguided because while it comes with many risks it does not provide the future career advantage that people have been led to believe it does. And certainly the ROI doesn’t add up in most cases, unless you receive a full ride or significant scholarship and then, sure why not, go to the Ivy league school.

Another thing to consider…what if some of that time spent in AP classes, SAT test prep, etc, was spent learning how to relate better to others and enriching kids’ characters and personalities in ways that aren’t so quantifiable, in ways that may improve their EQ rather than IQ? Wouldn’t that also provide an advantage in the quest to reach a C-level position? With all this focus on “hard work” where do those activities factor in?

And in the drive for the top tier college, how many parents are aware of the risk to kids’ mental and emotional stability, especially if the kid becomes convinced they “need” to get in and it doesn’t pan out? Psychiatrists and therapists offices are chock full of burnt out kids of all races, including Asians. Some may suggest the white kids are wimpy and Asian kids are tougher mentally but sadly, I bet there are just as many Asian suicide attempts and psychotic breaks at the top-ranking university hospitals as whites, if not more.

Is it worth it? Not for most and definitely not for our family, and not just because we won the “I came out of a lucky pussy” award and have some sort of misplaced confidence that the future will be easier for our kid.

I completely respect your work ethic, flu, and I like to believe mine is similar, but I do think that we should be careful not to confuse the difference between willingness to work hard and buying in to the college admissions race. Getting in to a top tier school is not the only way (and usually not the best way) to get to the C-level position or whatever else is your definition of success.[/quote]

None of my comment was directed at you Carli. Actually, I agree pretty much with everything you said. If you thought that if any of my comment was directed at you, then please don’t.[/quote]

Thank you, flu. No offense taken, and I didn’t mean to sound like I was taking it personally. I was just responding with my own opinion to your thoughtful post. 🙂

[carli]

[quote=flu]You know. A lot of you are doing nothing more than stereotyping foreign students as being bookworms. A lot of you are stereotyping asians student hard and work hard simply to get a good grade for the sake of getting good grades. And a lot of you keep harping on it being completely unnecessary to work as hard as some asians do….

You know, has it occurred to any of you that maybe the reason why asians work so damn hard is because things aren’t exactly easy for asians, especially here in america, and yet asians are determined to just do OK, and that sometimes in order to just be slightly above average, asians have to work sometimes twice as hard to just to be slightly above average in this country?

Look, for every different type of people, somethings work and some things don’t. And sometimes what might work for your life path might not work for someone else. Life isn’t fair. Everyone isn’t dealt the same hand. Some of us, in order to achieve something near equal or slightly above average have to work a lot more to get there than others. The only choices you have are (1) are you willing to do it or (2) not.

I won’t judge people for what opportunities they want to piss away. Or what they consider what is too difficult for them to try, or “too much more, or too competitive”. That’s fine. We all have are own limits and we all have our own different expectations. But don’t give me this shit that on one hand you don’t want to put the time/effort/money/initiative into doing one thing, and then bitch, belittle, and rain on someone else’s parade that is willing to put the time/effort/perseverance to do something you didn’t want to do, or didn’t care, or thought it wasn’t worth the “too much work” effort, and then complain later on why they seem to have better opportunity now than you do.

A lot of asians work very hard because we want to better ourselves. And frankly, for a lot of us, we have to work a heck of a lot harder to accomplish things simply because, let’s face it, we have to, in order to achieve the same level of accomplishment as others…. there is a sort of glass ceiling in many cases, and a “fraternity” in many industries here in the US and in many professions that tend to be, for the lack of the better word, culturally white. Banking, wall street, partners at law firms, VP’s/directors at VCs, entertainment, etc, and that’s even for asians born, raised, here in the U.S. Things that, frankly for many asians, will not be obtainable in both 1st generation, and in many cases 2nd generation. Part of this is cultural, and part of this is just well, generational, and part of this connection/buddy buddy system.

I’ll give you an example. Flyer is from a family that’s been here for many generations. As such ,his roots has been established here, his ancestors has paved a the way a lot, so he and his family definitely have a lot more opportunities. For him and his family. All this “exccessive work” that asians apparently do that many of you kinda thumb your nose over, flyer’s kids don’t have to do. Because, for example, even if his kids weren’t completely the top of their class (which by all means, I’m not suggesting they aren’t I’m sure they are stellar), I seriously doubt his kids are going to have a difficult finding/doing something productive, and making a difference.

Ok, so now, my parents were technical people from a foreign country generation 1. Their only opportunity was to come here on a government scholarship to study. They had no opportunity to work on wall street, their language precluded them from being in management, and some my background and sphere of influence tend to be around technical/engineering related things. How likely am I going to find a C-level executive position in the entertainment industry versus flyer’s kids?

Do I need to work a lot harder if I want to achieve the same level of success as flyer’s kids. Most certainly. Do I wish I had the opportunity his kids have? Certainly. And I jealous that his kids have that opportunity? (honestly, yes sort of ). But at the same time, life ain’t fair. So deal with it. If I want to be successful, I need to work my ass off because of the cards I was dealt. It’s as simple as that…or I simply don’t care and settle for something else..That’s a choice too. It might be your choice, if you’re dealt the same hand as I was, but that’s not my choice. I want to be at the same level as others that are dealt a better hand. At the same time, I’m not going to sit on my ass and just cry about how unfair things are. So fine, if you don’t want to put the time and effort into improving things, that’s fine. That’s respectable. Maybe you don’t need to. Maybe you have cards that were dealt much better than other asians. Fine. You win. Give yourself a pat on the back that you won the “I came out of the lucky pussy” award.

All you people that think that adding quotas, foreign limits, restrictions, discriminatory rules/laws is really going to stop other foreigners trying to be successful are dead wrong. Yes, it’s more frustrating, yes a lot of us ends up saying “what the fvck?”. And yes, you can slow people down who really want to strive to better themselves. But reality is, you will never be able to stop people who have that much passion and that determined to succeed, and doing so does nothing to improve your own situation. Many of us are already use to getting kicked around, picking up after your bullshit you deal us, and frankly as a result, many of us can take a lot more shit than most people probably can who haven’t gone through shit, can. And yet, we still do ok.

But to say these foreigners aren’t as good, aren’t as qualified. Well, that’s just plain ignorant. Many of these foreigners are scientists and researchers and academia. I don’t see many of you people harping on them rushing to get your masters or phd or interested in doing research.. I’m guessing probably not worth your time, energy, and probably doesnt “pay enough”…Afterall, I’m sure many of you, winning the “I came out of the lucky pussy” award, have that fabulous C-level executive position because you knew someone that knew someone that knew someone + had reasonably good credentials (maybe not perfect, but not bad…good enough)[/quote]

As someone who also won the “I came out of the lucky pussy” award, you may not consider me qualified to weigh in, but here goes. I was never doubting that you and many others may work harder than most who were born with certain advantages. I see it all the time. And as a female, I especially hear ya about the lack of fairness and like you, I’ve learned to work extra hard and just deal with it, because the statistics are not much better for women in C-level positions than they are for Asians (stats here for banking, where you can click on individual companies to get race/gender breakdowns: http://www.businessinsider.com/wall-street-bank-diversity-2015-8 and here for tech: http://www.businessinsider.com/diversity-in-tech-2014-2014-7?op=1)

My point was that I don’t think we should mix up a willingness to work hard with the extreme and misguided drive to participate in and win the race for admissions to a top tier school. It’s especially misguided because while it comes with many risks it does not provide the future career advantage that people have been led to believe it does. And certainly the ROI doesn’t add up in most cases, unless you receive a full ride or significant scholarship and then, sure why not, go to the Ivy league school.

Another thing to consider…what if some of that time spent in AP classes, SAT test prep, etc, was spent learning how to relate better to others and enriching kids’ characters and personalities in ways that aren’t so quantifiable, in ways that may improve their EQ rather than IQ? Wouldn’t that also provide an advantage in the quest to reach a C-level position? With all this focus on “hard work” where do those activities factor in?

And in the drive for the top tier college, how many parents are aware of the risk to kids’ mental and emotional stability, especially if the kid becomes convinced they “need” to get in and it doesn’t pan out? Psychiatrists and therapists offices are chock full of burnt out kids of all races, including Asians. Some may suggest the white kids are wimpy and Asian kids are tougher mentally but sadly, I bet there are just as many Asian suicide attempts and psychotic breaks at the top-ranking university hospitals as whites, if not more.

Is it worth it? Not for most and definitely not for our family, and not just because we won the “I came out of a lucky pussy” award and have some sort of misplaced confidence that the future will be easier for our kid.

I completely respect your work ethic, flu, and I like to believe mine is similar, but I do think that we should be careful not to confuse the difference between willingness to work hard and buying in to the college admissions race. Getting in to a top tier school is not the only way (and usually not the best way) to get to the C-level position or whatever else is your definition of success.

[carli]

In our experience, the total cost of attending UCLA is 33-35K/yr w/room, board, etc included. It’s still a relative bargain, and a scholarship makes it even more so.

[Author]

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