[CA renter]

[quote=zk][quote=CA renter]

All the evidence is there in that thread, zk. You can choose to remain ignorant; I can’t force facts and logic down your throat.

[/quote]

You look right at the facts, facts that unambiguously show that you’re wrong, and somehow then claim that I’m the ignorant one.

Stunning.[/quote]

I’ve looked, and you never proved me wrong. You’ve simply proved that you have a different opinion — one that is not based on either experience or education regarding this particular topic. It’s all literally your opinion, and you’re trying to present your opinion as fact. It’s clearly not.

[CA renter]

[quote=harvey][quote=CA renter][quote=zk]Just like somehow you’re not wrong about Obama signing the “Countering Disinformation And Propaganda Act” into law.[/quote]

You’re saying that he didn’t sign it?????

It’s obvious who’s avoiding facts and logic…[/quote]

Once again:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/senate-bill/3274/actions

The most troubling news in this thread is the example of the deplorable qualifications of some public school teachers.[/quote]

Once again…

“President Signs Portman-Murphy Counter-Propaganda Bill into Law

Portman-Murphy Bill Promotes Coordinated Strategy to Defend America, Allies Against Propaganda and Disinformation from Russia, China & Others

WASHINGTON, D.C. – U.S. Senators Rob Portman (R-OH) and Chris Murphy (D-CT) today announced that their Countering Disinformation and Propaganda Act – legislation designed to help American allies counter foreign government propaganda from Russia, China, and other nations – has been signed into law as part of the FY 2017 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) Conference Report.”

http://www.portman.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/press-releases?ID=F973E46B-AA8C-4F3E-91B4-8EC0FC7F2F3E

Yes, it’s pretty clear that your teachers greatly harmed your ability to read and use facts and logic in your “debates” (if one can call them debates, as you mostly just resort to ad hominem attacks). It is indeed deplorable.

For the record, it can take some time for the congress.gov website to be updated, especially around the holidays. Good thing Zero Hedge was on top of things, though.

[CA renter]

[quote=zk][quote=CA renter]

Again, you proved nothing of the sort. You pulled manure out of your butt and presented it as “facts and logic,” but you cited no evidence, and presented no logical arguments to back up what you were saying.
[/quote]

Fact: You said people segregated boys and girls for fear of feminizing boys.

Fact: I said you imagine that.

Fact: You said you didn’t.

Fact: You did imagine it, right there on that thread. You claimed I wanted to segregate boys and girls because I feared feminizing boys.

Fact: I had said no such thing.

Fact: You had imagined it (it wasn’t there, yet you saw it).

Ergo: You were wrong. You do imagine people wanting to segregate boys and girls for fear of feminizing boys. You did it right there on that thread.

Those are all facts, but the part of your brain that recognizes when you’re wrong is malfunctioning, so somehow you don’t see that.[/quote]

All the evidence is there in that thread, zk. You can choose to remain ignorant; I can’t force facts and logic down your throat.

And I can assure you, with 100% confidence, that many people (the majority who do it?) most definitely segregate their sons playmates by gender because they don’t want their sons to be “feminized.” I’ve had multiple parents tell me this to my face.

But if you want to continue on that thread, go ahead and revive it. In this thread, we are talking about this most recent legislation.

[CA renter]

[quote=zk]Just like somehow you’re not wrong about Obama signing the “Countering Disinformation And Propaganda Act” into law.[/quote]

You’re saying that he didn’t sign it?????

It’s obvious who’s avoiding facts and logic…

[CA renter]

[quote=zk][quote=CA renter]

ZK, the only thing you proved on that thread was that you disagreed with me, and that was based solely on your opinion, not on facts or logic.

[/quote]

It wasn’t my opinion. It was your own words that proved you unambiguously wrong.

There’s something wrong with you:

When you’re looking at proof that you’re wrong, you’re like the automatons on Westworld looking at pictures of the world outside the park: “That doesn’t look like anything to me.”

This is why I refuse to spend time debating you any more.[/quote]

Again, you proved nothing of the sort. You pulled manure out of your butt and presented it as “facts and logic,” but you cited no evidence, and presented no logical arguments to back up what you were saying.

As in this thread, you were speaking on a topic about which you were woefully uninformed.

[CA renter]

Some more information from those who actually know what they’re talking about:
………..

At their core, both groups formed in response to populist anger in the wake of the U.S. government’s decision in 2008 to bail out the nation’s largest banks. In an effort to stave off what policy makers at the time felt was the impending collapse of the global economy, Congress approved using hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars to prop up banks deemed “too big to fail.”

The Tea Party organized in 2009 and gained momentum through nationwide rallies and widespread media coverage. By the fall of 2010 Tea Party-backed candidates were appearing on Congressional ballot boxes across the country, their platforms unified in their disgust for excessive government spending in general and taxpayer-backed bailouts in particular, not least those targeting big banks.

Incumbent candidates who voted for the bailouts — Democrat, Republican, it didn’t matter — were excoriated for their support.

http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2011/10/19/occupy-wall-street-tea-party-born-bank-bailouts.html

https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/h/henryrolli619052.html?src=t_occupy

http://www.columbian.com/news/2011/oct/25/letter-tea-party-message-was-co-opted/

http://crooksandliars.com/heather/judith-miller-admits-tea-party-has-been-co

[CA renter]

[quote=zk]CA Renter, this is normally where I break out the facts and logic and evidence and reason. But that takes a lot of time, and you’ve shown that you’re immune to it anyway.

Remember this?:

https://piggington.com/middle_school_logic?page=9

I spent many an hour countering your ridiculousness, and I proved, using your own words, that you were unambiguously wrong (my assertion was that you imagine people being motivated to segregate girls and boys for fear of feminizing boys. You said you did no such thing. And, right there on that thread, you did exactly that – you imagined me doing it. You accused me of doing it when I hadn’t). Yet you continued to insist that you were right.

So, if you can’t see, even when it’s unambiguously proven to you, that you’re wrong, why would I spend my time trying to convince you?

I will throw this out there, though, because I think it’s kind of funny:

Saying that OWS and the Tea Party protests were started for the same reason is like saying the “Free Mumia” movement and the “Execute Mumia” movement were started for the same reason: They were both angry that Mumia was in jail.

Sure, they both don’t like the state of government/corporate interaction. But if one wants less corporate influence on the government, and the other wants less government influence on corporations, then they don’t want the same thing.[/quote]

ZK, the only thing you proved on that thread was that you disagreed with me, and that was based solely on your opinion, not on facts or logic.

So, feel free to actually prove something based on facts and logic, and I will listen. So far on this thread, you’re just pulling more nonsense out of your behind and claiming that it is somehow more relevant or truthful vs. the experience of someone who was actually there.

Yes, OWS and the Tea Party started for the same reasons — to stop privatizing profits and socializing losses, and to get the government to stop favoring Wall Street (and corporations) over people. The story about the Tea Party being about small government or being opposed to Obamacare came well after it had already built a following that was focused purely on the bailouts of the financial sector. The movement gained such strength in such a short amount of time that the PTB freaked out and began infiltrating and redirecting the energy toward things like “big government” and Obamacare. This is very well known among those who were involved. Again, I was there, and you, quite obviously, were not.

[CA renter]

[quote=zk][quote=CA renter]

http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-09-17/real-meaning-1-year-anniversary-occupy-wall-street

[/quote]

That article is your defense of ZH?

Wow. You’re kind of making my point for me.[/quote]

Precisely which part of that article do you disagree with, and why? Please be specific and give us a valid reason — cite sources or give us some personal background information indicating your expertise regarding these movements — for why your position is the truthful one, and why the ZH article is wrong.

For the record, I was actively involved with these movements and can attest to what ZH is saying here. Many of the people who were involved with the original Tea Party (before being co-opted by the Republicans) were the same people who were involved with OWS…and many of these same people were involved in Bernie Sanders’ campaign (and were also involved with the Iraq war protests, etc.). If you have information that would conflict with my personal knowledge and experience regarding this topic, I’d be open to hearing about it.

And prior to the Tea Party and OWS, there was this protest, and never a peep from the MSM about it, either. Again, this is the same movement from this protest, to the (original/real) Tea Party, to Occupy Wall Street, to Bernie Sanders’ campaign. It’s all part of the same movement; it’s the MSM and the government/corporate leaders who have infiltrated and co-opted these movements that are framing these as separate movements in order to divide and conquer the masses who are rightly angered by the antics of our politicians and their corporate overlords.

[CA renter]

[quote=harvey]I other words, even though it’s been spelled out to you very clearly that Zero Hedge is worthless, you are are still going to cite it as a “credible source” whenever it suits your opinion of the day.

ZK is right. This is how we ended up with Trump.

Merry Christmas![/quote]

Please quote the post where it’s been “spelled out…very clearly that Zero Hedge is worthless.” Remember, opinions don’t count. Back it up with evidence.

[CA renter]

Harvey and zk, you’re making my case.

The bill was signed by President Obama just before Christmas Eve (odd timing, no?). I searched google (using the search terms “obama signs countering disinformation and propaganda act” and “countering disinformation and propaganda act”) for any news about it among the MSM sources that you seem to indicate are truthful and unbiased, but found no MSM coverage on the first few pages of results.

But, lo and behold, Zero Hedge is reporting on it. Other alternative news sites are also reporting about it. Why no MSM coverage?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-12-24/obama-signs-countering-disinformation-and-propaganda-act-law

Is this less newsworthy than George Michael’s death?

It’s like how the news was reporting about Miley Cyrus “twerking” a few years back instead of focusing on important issues like the secretive dealings regarding the TPP. I mentioned the absence of this important news at the time, too.

[CA renter]

I need to lose at least 10 pounds. For some reason, my metabolism just shut down this past year. Getting older stinks! 🙁

[CA renter]

[quote=Escoguy]CA renter

I don’t know what your life experiences are and how many countries you’ve lived in/languages you speak or people you know.

What I can say after living in 8 countries over 20 years and knowing multiple foreign languages is that zero hedge is designed to look real to a person who has a critical eye towards the US but in actuality is little more than sophisticated propaganda. I could take any articles’s “facts” and depending on the direction I want the reader to go, portray the US or Russia as evil/the victim/succeeding etc.

Once you realize that “fake news” is often about how “facts” are used to support a biased view, then you can look at everything more critically and have a happier life as you won’t need to take such sites so seriously. I was a regular reader for years but finally realized that my desire to get an alternative perspective wasn’t worth the negative effects such articles had on my thinking so I just cut it off and get other sources. A good one to consider is Calculated risk as they did a good job of calling the housing bubble but are grounding in facts.

For a while I read the housingbubble.com but they had a hard time realizing there would be a real recovery. If you join the permanent doom camp, it’s like putting on blinders and you won’t be ready when there is a recovery.

ZH is someone like that in the economic/political sphere.[/quote]

Yes, I’ve lived and traveled overseas, and have lived among immigrants my entire life. As you might imagine, I’ve never shied away from discussions about politics, culture, religion, etc.; and have had many interesting conversations with people from all around the world. These different perspectives have given me a much better understanding about the world and our place in it.

You are absolutely correct about being able to create multiple different (and even opposing) narratives based on the same facts. What I think you and others might be missing is that this is also true of U.S. news sources, history books, etc.

I’ve long been familiar with Calculated Risk, The Housing Bubble Blog (where I was a regular poster for many years), etc. There are biases and social/political leanings no matter where you go. I prefer to familiarize myself with as many perspectives as possible.

You’re wise to wean yourself from sites that create negative thoughts and feelings. I’ve had to do that myself, too. But I still want to be as informed as possible, and I can’t do that just by watching CNN or reading the Washington Post, the NYT, or the Economist (all of which I watch/read, too).

I think that alternative news sources are the lifeblood of a healthy society. As it stands, our media outlets are controlled by too few people, and it’s obvious that they are trying to push certain agendas, often to the detriment of both U.S. citizens and people abroad.

[CA renter]

[quote=zk][quote=CA renter]I’ve yet to see them promote a story that had no basis in reality[/quote]

Is that your bar? A “basis in reality?”

Good god, it’s no wonder you can’t recognize propaganda.[/quote]

I’ve been familiar with some stories that were discussed in mainstream media, and there is no question that our traditional outlets are very biased and are definitely involved in spreading propaganda and intentionally distorting the truth. They also redirect the public’s attention from certain stories and to others in order to push certain narratives.

There are no unbiased news sources. You have to be familiar with all perspectives and biases in order to glean the truth. But you need to have sources that value truth and integrity. Zero Hedge has reported on very important stories that were intentionally not covered by the MSM, this includes the housing/credit bubble issue that we were focusing on here on Piggington. Zero Hedge got it right, the MSM got it wrong.

They were also one of the few media sources who nailed what happened to both the Tea Party and OWS protests (which were both started for the same reasons), and how the establishment infiltrated and/or co-opted these movements in order to neutralize them.

http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-09-17/real-meaning-1-year-anniversary-occupy-wall-street

None of this was in the MSM. They did the bidding of their masters and pushed the story that these were opposing “right” and “left” movements, when nothing could be further from the truth.

This is why I prefer alternate sources of information — to compare it to what’s being spread in the MSM so that the truth can be better discerned.

[CA renter]

[quote=Escoguy]Rich

There is considerable reason to believe that Zero Hedge is an agitprop site.

A handful of “facts” presented in a way to show the problems with the US: high levels of debt, potential for a weakening currency.

With topics such as Ukraine, Zero Hedge is clearly in the Russia camp.

How Do You Know That Zero Hedge is a Russian Information Operation? Here’s How

Best thing you can do is just not read it to lower their traffic/clicks/ad revenue.

This kind of website epitomizes why discerning what is fake news is difficult but in essence the theme of the site it to take “facts” and push an agenda in a particular manner rather than showing any balance. Somewhat comparable with “Fox News” saying “Fair and Balanced”, when 70-80% of the coverage is center right and the center left coverage is done in a halfhearted/weak way.[/quote]

Unfortunately, there are precious few media outlets that offer an objective perspective on news and current events. That’s why people need to be familiar with all of the relevant facts, along with the various perspectives, so that they can piece things together for themselves.

Just my 2 cents, but I’ve not seen any “fake news” on Zero Hedge. I’m not a regular reader, but I’ve been reading posts and comments there, off and on, for quite a few years; I’ve yet to see them promote a story that had no basis in reality (though I admit to not reading the majority of their work).

I’ve seen far more “fake news” and propaganda on CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, etc. At the very least, ZH is willing to post stories — real stories — that are not being covered in the MSM. That in itself is reason enough to keep ZH as one of many alternative news sources.

[CA renter]

[quote=Rich Toscano][quote=CA renter]
I’m not on twitter, so might be missing what they’re trying to communicate here (assuming that you’re indicating that they were wrong or not even-handed in their analysis)[/quote]

There’s no “analysis”… it’s just these 2 pictures side by side:

– A form to report fake news to Facebook (a private organization)
– A Nazi book-burning rally in WWII era Germany

That’s literally the whole thing.[/quote]

I think this is more of an issue with twitter and its 140 character limit. That leaves very little room for any analysis or debate. It’s one of the main reasons I’ve not spent any time on twitter, save for the odd links to a twitter feed that people post on other sites.

[Author]

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