[bearishgurl]

[quote=SD Realtor]I showed a firefighter friend of mine bgs ridiculous post about govt workers and he laughed so hard he almost fell over. He was wondering when the last time you actually worked was.

So lets see… should I trust a current govt worker about the way things really are right now or someone who is an internet poster….

pretty easy decision.[/quote]

Actually, I really feel for today’s govm’t workers. Not only do they have MUCH higher health premiums deducted from their pay, their plans are significantly watered down from the plans offered in years and decades past and they have to work five years longer to “vest.”

In addition, instead of paysteps 1-5 and “step 2” being awarded after an initial six-month probationary period, the steps are now 0-8 and “step 0” is the probationary step which is now one year long! Step 0 is equivalent to about step 4-5 in the ’98 negotiations. We’re talking pennies difference between the steps here because these are entry level lineworkers. The steps were increased because they now require an employee to get to step 8 (2 yrs longer) to become eligible to promote internally. It was obviously (reluctantly?) agreed to by the unions to hold down “highest year” and “average of highest 3 years” pay used to calculate future pensions.

I’ve also been told by a current govm’t worker, when visiting an agency other than the one they work on their lunch hour to view or discuss their OWN personal records or business MUST wear their badge and IDENTIFY THEMSELVES as an employee of XYZ agency. If they do not and their employer finds out they were there, they could be disciplined. Apparently, an employee’s legal “unpaid lunch hour” activities have come under scrutiny by the gov’mt employer. Seems to me that the “unions” are losing ground . . .

I can’t imagine walking down the street on my lunch hour to pull my confidential “child support file,” my foster child’s MediCal file or my “disso file,” identifying myself as an xyz agency employee and finding out from my employer after I left that that agency called my agency’s personnel dept to tell them the details of my visit. I was completely aghast when hearing this as that practice appears to me to be an invasion of privacy and unconstitutional on its face.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=harvey][quote=fat_lazy_union]BG, to counter your equally long post (which I actually read from beginning to end, unlike maybe people who probably wont)… [/quote]

Count me in the “didn’t read it” group. I glanced at it and got the gist of it though.

The whole argument that “my job is hard” is childish and arrogant. WTF do you think the rest of the world does at their jobs? I come from a family of steelworkers and coal miners, many of whom ultimately lost the majority of their pension benefits.

Yeah, let’s talk about difficult jobs and hardship, I could use a good laugh as you lament the horrors of having a dress code in your office…

And the reasoning that goes from “my job is hard” to “therefore you need to cover my investment losses” is absolute nonsense.[/quote]

Yeah, I see YOU (“harvey”) managed to move away from the coal mines to sunny CA and your “job” is equally hard.

I never stated these line jobs are “hard.” I stated that they are rife with a passel of “rules and regulations” and “politics” that I have no doubt most of these “complainers” on here couldn’t follow for even one hour.

I’ll just assume you would get booted out on your a$$ on the first day of your new “gubment gig” like other arrogant posters on this thread who claim they are “worker bees” but are quite obviously “in charge of their own time” during the business day. That is . . . if your “background checks” came out satisfactorily enough to get hired in the first place, lol.

So much for Piggs wanting to apply for these “cushy” jobs . . . I don’t see any “takers” yet …

[bearishgurl]

[quote=harvey (aka pri_dk)]A small percentage of the population is devastating our schools and services because they once negotiated extraordinarily high compensation and now refuse to allow the economy to impact them in the same way it has everyone else…[/quote]

pri, your post intimates that govm’t workers, deferred govm’t retirees and current govm’t retirees actually had a choice in whether the “economy” impacted them … or not. Don’t you think gov’t workers who bought property at the height of the “boom” might be underwater now or have lost their homes to a SS, a deed-in-lieu or foreclosure?

How about their individual “457 plans?” Don’t you think some of these workers have taken a beating on them since first funding them? I know when I went “all cash” last fall, my 457 funds had the same value as they did in 2000 after a very bumpy ride!

What about the thousands of “govm’t retirees” who have had healthplan-premium credits taken away from their pension pkg because they were never guaranteed in the first place? Do you think it is “cheap” or “easy” for them to procure a medical policy on the open market at the age of 57? If YOU were a 57 yo govm’t “retiree” or “deferred retiree,” would YOU pay $800-$1100 month for your former employer’s plan (for yourself only) or pay the premium out of your pension?

What about those current gov’t workers who opted IN an “enhanced benefit plan” offered by their local-govm’t employer within the last ten years? They now have 14-27% of their biweekly pay deducted to fund the plan (plus mandatory deductions for now “watered-down” benefits). If they are footing the bill for medical/dental benefits for a family of four on their paycheck, their “deductions” could now very well exceed 50% of their pay (after taxes)! How MUCH is ENOUGH??

Gov workers and gov retirees pay the same income and property taxes, DMV fees, licensing fees, utility bills, grocery bills (in the absence of mil commissary privileges) as private-sector workers do.

EVERYONE is impacted by the current state of the economy, NOT just “private sector” workers.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=SD Realtor]It is absolutely hilarious.

On the one hand you will argue that it is a shame that people would have to move out of san diego to find affordable housing. That they should not have to.

Yet your argument for pensions is that people who do not work in the public sector should not get them. That the solution is for us chumps in the private sector to quit and get a public sector job.

You love to argue how in favor of the workers, that the working class should receive all corporate profits but you are plenty satisfied with the differences in how the private and public working class employees are treated.

In your utopia shouldn’t all working class employees receive the exact same treatment?

Why shouldn’t they get the exact same benefit?[/quote]
Two words ….. PRIVACY and FREEDOM! As a lineworker in a govm’t bureaucracy, the “privacy” and “freedoms” that private-sector workers enjoy does not exist. Not unlike the military, a gov’t peon has to “fall in line” with the way they are taught to perform their tasks or be labeled “insubordinate” and disciplined or released during their probationary period. It doesn’t matter whether the way you are taught is the most efficient way or whether you think the task even needs to be done, your “supervisor” knows best. He or she could very well have little to no actual “qualifications” for the job and quite often far less education than you but was “promoted” for “bending over.”

As a new govmt employee, you will first meet your new “supervisor” to get your set of five-pound-each “Rule Binders” and learn what makes them tick, pronto … “respect” be damned!

I want to know a few things about the “privately-employed” Piggs who rag on and on here about public pensions.

1. Do you routinely “day trade” during NYSE trading hours (6:00 am to 1:00 pm PST)? Do you day-trade in foreign markets between 1:00 and 5:00 pm?

2. If you came back to your workstation a little late from lunch hour because perhaps you got stuck in traffic (as little as 6 mins or 1/10 of an hour), will you be docked vacation pay for it?

3. If you decided to lay down in the restroom or in your vehicle during a 15 min break because you had a headache and came back 15-30 mins late, would you be docked vacation or sick pay for it?

4. If you were arrested for a DUI or other misdemeanor, would your employer get word of it before you even came back to work the next day and take disciplinary action against you, up to and including termination, pending outcome of your case. Would they send one of their “lackeys” to court to watch the resolution of your case?

5. Have you ever been sent home from work to change clothes and docked vacation pay for the time away from work because your supervisor/mgr did not feel what you wore to work was “appropriate?”

6. Do you blog, shop online and surf the internet during the business day?

7. Do you have a keylogger installed on your workstation?

8. Do you have a keystroke counter installed on your workstation? Do you have to tally your work up at the end of each workday, much like showing “billable hours?”

9. If you have to go to the restroom while at work, do you have to let a coworker know and hang a sign in your workstation showing what time you’ll be back? Has your supervisor ever came in or sent someone into the restroom to find out why you’re taking so long?

10. Did your employer run your credit report as a condition of employment?

11. Did your employer contact as many of your relatives as they could dig up out of the “archives” prior to hire to see what they would say about you?

12. Did your employer send an investigator out to talk to your neighbors prior to deciding to hire you?

13. Did your employer run a FBI/CII (now CA DOJ) background check on you and members of your immediate family prior to deciding to hire you?

14. Did you have to sign an open-ended “release” allowing your employer to perform all of the above “checks” on you prior to hire? Did the release you sign give them the right to keep running these checks throughout your employment? Was the signing of this release a condition of employment?

15. Does your employer have the right at any time during your employment to demand a “fitness for duty” examination by their doctor in the absence of your filing worker’s comp claim?

16. Were you ever formally disciplined because you called in sick 15 minutes after your “start time” elapsed?

17. Were you ever formally disciplined because you tried to “sneak out” of work prior to the “closing bell” at 5:00 pm?

18. Have you ever asked your employer if you could telecommute 1-2 days per week and were told to “pack sand?”

19. If you are an “hourly” non-exempt employee, have you been denied overtime pay for working late to complete a particular job?

20. If you work in downtown SD, is parking provided to you free of charge by your employer?

21. Are you allowed to talk on your cell phone, text and go online on your mobile device during working hours?

22. If you have a “side gig” or moonlight, do you need to disclose all the “who, what, when, where and why” about it on a form to your employer (so you can be “monitored” for potential conflicts of interest), lest they find out from another employee (or overhear you talk about it on your lunch hour) and take disciplinary action against you for NOT disclosing it?

23. Have you ever lunched with or hired for labor on your property an ex-con and feared your employer would find out about it and discipline you? Do you actually even run background checks on workers who come on to your property??

24. Are you required to submit to a periodic urinalysis by your employer’s medical contractor as a condition of continuing employment?

25. If arrested for a felony and bailed out of jail, will your employer immediately put you on an unpaid “furlough” pending outcome of your case?

L@rd . . . I can go on …. and on …. and on. Suffice to say I have represented many non-managerial employees in the past on grievances, ULPs and discipline taken against them on the above “transgressions.”

If you are a new parent, do you think you’re going to “stay home with child(ren)” longer than the statutory 10-week FML (plus any accrued vacation time you have on the books) and still retain your govm’t gig, its benefits and pension vesting or accrual? Think again.

In order to earn that “lofty pension” you all are lamenting over here, a gov’t employee needs to “fall in line” and “bend over” for a minimum of 25 years.

If you often wonder why the 40 or 50-something gov’t peons at your local service counter look “worn out,” it is likely because their vacation accrual was consistently bled off their “books” biweekly in increments of 1/10 of an hour due to “life” happening to them.

Do you all think can do this? Like I’ve always stated here, GO FOR IT!!!!! Start filling out those lengthy applications and get ready to bend over … no, d-e-e-e-per . . . and stay there – don’t move! Because, even though this is America, yo a$$ will NOT belong to YOU anymore ;=]

[bearishgurl]

[quote=harvey][quote=SD Realtor]Why shouldn’t they get the exact same benefit?[/quote]

“yes, everyone should get to retire at 50 with a full salary pension.”

Of course we’ve seen how well that actually works.[/quote]

Yes, I HAVE seen how well that works, FIRST HAND. Although I have been eligible for years to begin to collect it, I myself have “deferred” my paltry gov’t pension until the age of 62, just to receive an additional $331 month!

I was not a “sworn safety member” (whose pensions are calculated on more generous formulas) and am NOT ALONE in this regard. And I did not hold a “professional” or “managerial” position.

There are thousands of “BG’s” out there.

I’m wondering if my govm’t pension will even cover my monthly utilities at the time I begin to collect it, lol…

pri, based upon your past and present demeanor on this forum, I can’t see you (or any of the other Piggs continually ragging on this subject in the middle of the business day) “bending over” every day for as long as I did for this “generous reward,” that is, if I don’t die first. If I do, there will be no survivor benefit to anyone.

Ahem, my family doesn’t have a “history” of longetivity. I’m trying mightily to be an outlier in that regard :=0

[bearishgurl]

[quote=AN]….You seem to know, why don’t you try to explain that to me.[/quote]

Hispanics who live in homes where English is the first language spoken do just as well as other student groups on their state tests. It is mostly Hispanics where English is NOT their primary language and/or who live in homes where a language other than English is spoken who drag the scores down for the entire group.

It has everything to do with language barriers and the ability to comprehend and compose the written word.

[bearishgurl]

Oh, and uh, congrats to the students and teachers at SMHS on your *new* “national acclaim!”

[bearishgurl]

AN, Compare MMHS (area you’re familiar with) with an API of 846 and a “Hispanic” score of 781. Is MMHS’s 846 score anything to “crow about?” What about BVHS’s 851 score? Why did students in the “Hispanic” group do MUCH better on their state exams at BVHS?

These are only examples. I could give a few more here but am using these random schools to make a point. I have nothing against MMHS or TPHS and I’m sure they’re both good schools.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=AN][quote=bearishgurl]I totally agree that there are different “ethnicities” within the Asian demographic group.

Teachers at BVHS are ALL races but more than half of them are Hispanic (at least part Hispanic) and teachers of “other demographic” there speak Spanish.

“Hispanic” is such a “catch all” term for a portion of the “Caucasian” race. Like, flu said, he intends to change the last name of his daughter before she applies for college (to increase her chances of admission, lol). What’s in a surname? Many persons with “Hispanic” surnames do not possess even one drop of “Hispanic” blood. And how much “Hispanic” blood in them does one need to be officially labeled “Hispanic” or “Latino?” Would 1/2, 1/4 or 1/8 do??[/quote]
So, how does this play into your argument about my original post of Asian in Hoover score similar to Hispanic in Carmel Valley? So, what you’re saying even the Non-Hispanic with Hispanic names are not scoring as well as their Asian and White counter parts? Even with all the teachers speaking Spanish to help Hispanic kids assimilate and that’s the best that they can do? That’s kinds of sad.[/quote]

I never stated that BVHS’s or TPHS’s students who were categorized “Hispanic” weren’t actually “Hispanic” and you never answered my question, which was:

Why do you think “Hispanics” at BVHS (API 851) scored 81 points higher on their state exams than “Hispanic” students at TPHS (API 882)?

(826 BVHS Hispanic score minus 745 TPHS Hispanic score.)

[bearishgurl]

[quote=AN]…WRT Bonita Vista High School, the Hispanic API score is 826, the White API score is 883, while the Asian API score is 933. How many Asian teacher do you see at BVHS vs Hispanic and White teachers?[/quote]

AN, you must admit that the “Hispanic” portion (826) of BVHS’s overall API score is higher than many, many HS scores in the entire county. How would a score of 826 rank a HS in 2011? Perhaps 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th or 20th out of ALL schools??

Why do you think this is so when the “Hispanic” students (with every “advantage?”) do so poorly on the same test at TPHS?

[bearishgurl]

[quote=AN]BG, you’re right, Hoover attendance doesn’t include El Cajon. I was assuming since it’s on El Cajon Blvd, it’s El Cajon area, but it turns out to be not the case. Here’s Hoover’s attendance map: http://california.hometownlocator.com/schools/profiles,n,hoover%20high,z,92115,t,pb,i,1016697.cfm

But that’s besides the point. My point is, the students that goes to Hoover HS are low income. http://api.cde.ca.gov/Acnt2011/2011GrowthSch.aspx?cYear=2005-06&allcds=37-683383732997. Based on the total number of students tested for their API score: 1364, the Socioeconomically Disadvantaged group is 1364 students.

Now, for the rest of your statement, it’s hogwash. Asian is not a homogenous group and they all don’t speak the same language. So, having a Chinese teacher teaching a bunch of Japanese students would be no difference than having a White teacher teaching that group of Japanese student. So Asian statement makes absolutely no sense.

WRT Bonita Vista High School, the Hispanic API score is 826, the White API score is 883, while the Asian API score is 933. How many Asian teacher do you see at BVHS vs Hispanic and White teachers?[/quote]

I totally agree that there are different “ethnicities” within the Asian demographic group.

Teachers at BVHS are ALL races but more than half of them are Hispanic (at least part Hispanic) and teachers of “other demographic” there speak Spanish.

“Hispanic” is such a “catch all” term for a portion of the “Caucasian” race. Like, flu said, he intends to change the last name of his daughter before she applies for college (to increase her chances of admission, lol). What’s in a surname? Many persons with “Hispanic” surnames do not possess even one drop of “Hispanic” blood. And how much “Hispanic” blood in them does one need to be officially labeled “Hispanic” or “Latino?” Would 1/2, 1/4 or 1/8 do??

[bearishgurl]

[quote=AN][quote=flu]Well in on honesty, imho “race” base performance these days is more of a myth than truth imho…
Imho, it has a lot more to do with social-economic environment/background than actual “race/ethnicity” in this modern world.

You take a bunch of upper-middle class educated people and stick them in one school district, doesn’t really matter what ethnicity they are. Chances are they all want the same thing (probably) and probably perform more or less the same…Maybe that’s what’s going on…Bahh, i don’t care… (for the last time)…[/quote]
I would have to disagree with this one. Here’s an example:
Hoover HS API:
Asian – 747

Torrey Pines HS API:
Hispanic – 745

This is comparing low income area vs upper middle class area. How can you explain the fact that Asian in low income areas like El Cajon getting similar API scores as Hispanics in an area like Carmel Valley?[/quote]

AN, Hoover HS is in SD, NOT El Cajon. And only parts of El Cajon 92020 and 92021 are “low income.” The rest of EC residents (incl those who reside in 92019) are MC and upper MC.

I’ve always maintained that certain HS’s in SD County “cater” to Asians, thus they excel when in classes full of Asians like themselves and taught by Asian teachers. I haven’t actually checked but given the ethnicity of most business owners/operators along El Cajon Blvd (Hoover’s attendance area), the Asian students at Hoover are most likely Vietnamese. This demographic typically doesn’t have the resources of Chinese students (extra private tutoring, etc) because, even though their parents are possibly “successful biz owners” now, they or THEIR parents (students’ grandparents) were “resettled” here in SD by the Federal govm’t as refugees 20-30 years ago with only the clothing on their backs and perhaps not all their children with them. They didn’t move here with university educations.

Even moreso than having an “upper MC” family income which is very often solely the (ahem, temporary) result of two parents working FT, public school students do best when they are enrolled in a school full of their demographic “peers” and most of the teachers at their school are of the same demographic as them. For instance, in several SUHSD high schools, “Hispanics” score much higher on state-administered exams than the vast majority of HS’s in other districts in SD County because they are surrounded by mostly themselves, including their teacher and administrator-mentors.

This is why districts prefer to hire a newly-minted young teacher who graduated from a HS in their own district over an outsider.

“Family income” is not the only thing or even the main thing that contributes to a CA school’s high API score, IMHO. I believe they are accomplished by expert teachers explicitly teaching to the test by rote, repetition, using rewards, etc. … whatever it takes to raise the scores of a particular population of students. The most successful teachers in this regard are those who personally and intimately identify with the culture of their students, whether by birth, marriage or assimilation.

In other words, if your children are at least 50% “Hispanic” and your family is able to afford an “upper MC” area, why would you choose to raise them in the TPHS attendance area, when, instead of being “ignored” in school in favor of students of other ethnicities, they would thrive and do so much better at Bonita Vista High School (BVHS) with a 2011 API of 851?

Very “high scoring” public schools are not for every kid. There are many other factors that should be considered in school selection besides “API score.”

[bearishgurl]

[quote=flu][quote=outtamojo][quote=ocrenter]I agree with flu. something’s off.

I’ve always been an advocate that San Marcos High is up and coming and I am happy to see the improvement.

But I really wonder about the number.

How in the world do they get 100% of the kids to take the AP test. someone has been tweeking their policies to maximize their ranking.[/quote]

100% participation? Hard to imagine ANY high school without a few stoners lol. That school ranked #8 in La Jolla has a 100% participation rate also, but with a 32% pass rate. I think if they SMHS were to do some culling the pass rate would be higher, but then again, shouldn’t your public schools make every possible attempt to at least expose the less gifted/disadvantaged kids to the higher echelons of academia?[/quote]

No it shouldn’t because AP is not a prerequisite for getting into college. It’s more like a “GATE” program than a required curriculum….At least that was when I went through the public education system.

In our AP classes..People that took AP classes passed with 3 or better near 90%… And it was simple why. The teacher of AP clases basically flunked everyone first (ok gave everyone a C based on the teaching program), and if you did a 4 or better would go back and retroactively update your grade based on how you did on your exam…That way, the first two weeks of class, people who couldn’t make the cut opted not to do the AP class.

But folks that didn’t take AP didn’t mean they didn’t get into college…

AP classes are just that….. “Advanced Placement”…

A school that reports 100% participation in an “Advanced Placement” is just ridiculous… Because not everyone is “advanced”…

and it’s funny that U.S. News and World Report forgot about this key concept..[/quote]

AP classes can be both a blessing and a curse. If a student tries an AP class they think they can do and then realizes they’re going to get a “D” in it after the first ten days, it is in the student’s best interest to drop the AP class and take the subject in a regular “college prep” A-G class.

An AP class only gives the student one extra point for each grade level (A=5 pts, B=4 pts and so on) as opposed to A=4 pts in a “mainstream” A-G HS class. If the kid is going to get a C or D in the AP class but can easily get an A or B in a mainstream class, then they will likely have a higher GPA (for college entrance purposes) by staying the course with the HS’s regular college-prep curriculum. In other words, why should a student agonize over all that extra work if it won’t actually improve their GPA? Don’t these students have enough to do for college entrance what with having to show participation for at least one season in a sport and 1-2 committees/clubs as well as perform 200 hrs community service, create a “senior portfolio” and take and pass the CAHSEE (HS exit exam)?

There’s hardly enough time in a day to accomplish all these things (except the sr portfolio) in the two years that COUNT for college admittance purposes (grades 10-11). May is a particularly brutal month in this regard :={

[bearishgurl]

Upon a closer look, the USN&WP stated that Dublin HS had 497 students. I remembered it to hold at least 1500 students back in the day and I know its attendance area has now turned into an overcrowded megalopolis. Upon perusing its Wiki page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_High_School_%28Dublin,_California%29

I learned it now has a “school within a school” (similar to SDHS in SD) called the “Engineering and Design Academy.” Perhaps THIS is the “school” which won the USN&WP award and where 100% of students took and passed AP classes! I also learned it won a similar award in 2010.

Acc to its wiki page, DHS appears to be currently in the process of turning into a mid-century monstrosity (with $120M from voter-approved “Prop C” funds), is slated to be finished this year to hold 2500 students!

I think the individual school info put out by USN&WP is a bit misleading as to CA schools, perhaps thru no fault of their own. These awards were such a large project and perhaps they depended upon the schools to report the info to them and the magazine likely did not really understand how each school is structured.

[bearishgurl]

Does anyone understand that these “outliers” such as the Fire Chief and Librarian mentioned in the OP were NOT union members? These retired “public employees” were appointed officials by their respective City Councils (not sure how a city is RI is governed). In CA, when a City Council or County Board of Supervisors releases a job opening for a public official position, they typically contract with a headhunter to search nationwide and interview at least 12-14 candidates. Yes, often they DO end up hiring someone from within the organization for the job simply because of their valuable institutional knowledge and these candidates typically have years of seniority already behind them. The job offer of an appointed public official is entirely negotiable between the Council/BOS and the candidate. This includes pay, medical/dental/vision benefits, leave accrual, etc, which may be entirely different plans or rate of accrual that unions negotiated for their rank and file public-worker members. Since appointed and elected officials do not typically stay on board as long as “rank and file union members,” it was not unheard of for them to be offered vesting in as little as five years with a pension at a higher percentage of their “wage” than the worker-bees. This was a carrot used to steal the “best” public officials away from other locales.

“Civil Service Rules” and “Union Contracts” do not apply here. In other words, your SD elected officials offered and/or agreed upon the City Librarian’s appointment to use a particular formula to calculate their pension (among negotiating and agreeing to other perks at the time of their appointment).

These “appointed outliers” work strictly at the pleasure of City Councils/Boards of Supervisors. Their “contributions” and “personality” can fall in and out of favor with the PTB, depending on WHO gets replaced in the next election cycle (and WHO replaced the incumbent who voted to hire/retain the official).

Don’t mix up the salaries, benefits and pension formulas of elected officials and their appointees with the rank and file public worker union members. The “total pkg” of compensation between the two is as different as night and day.

[Author]

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