[an]

[quote=CBad][quote=AN]So, what’s the chances we’ll see a 3% no cost loan for 30 year fixed? That would be killer to lock in at 3% for 30 years. I’m making that much from my 5 year CD.[/quote]

Where are you getting a 5 yr. CD for that?[/quote]
I got it a year ago at Ally.

[an]

[quote=Jacarandoso]I don’t know too much ,AN . I just wanted the discussion to be laid out properly which it is now.

I would never have batteries with the grid available. At least I don’t think I would . A back-up generator is cheap and the waveform is smooth enough to run a computer easily now too, even on some economical models. Not trying to convince you, just saying.

I think keeping the fact that you are at 32 latitude in mind is important. East county even more so, because we don’t have June gloom, Which seems to have turned into May,June,July gloom.[/quote]
What do you consider cheap when you’re talking about back-up generator being cheap? To compare apple to apple, you would need a back up generator that can produce 120kWh. A quick Google for back up generator get me this product: http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=backup+generator&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=11881452205886685817&sa=X&ei=mDZ8TuPvOLDUiAKA8ZCUDg&ved=0CJsBEPMCMAM. 20kWh for $5k. Depend on if I’m using my AC or not, I can be using up to 40kWh/day. So, to just satisfy my peak need, I would need at least 2-3 of this unit. to compare apple to apple, we would need 6 of these, in order to produce 120kWh. You’re looking at about $30k in back up generator. That’s pretty expensive to me.

I do keep in mind that we’re at 32 latitude, that’s why I’m hopeful for solar as well. It’s just not viable option today for me. Also, for us who don’t have a big enough lot to put the panel on the ground to get the maximum sun light, we have to depend on our roof and the direction our houses are facing. Not all of us have ideal roof direction to get maximum sun light.

[an]

[quote=briansd1]No, because Elizabeth Warren is honest and actually has a platform that benefits her voters.

The masses of Tea Party voters don’t benefit from Tea Party policies.

I don’t agree with Ron Paul, but I believe he’s honest. Can’t say the same for other Tea Party leaders.[/quote]
What does benefiting their voters have to do with being populist. How do you know a Republican version of you don’t think Warren repugnant?

You keep on saying Tea Party voters don’t benefit from Tea Party policies. Do you have proof of this? Do you think they’re all dumb and don’t know what they’re doing/voting for?

[an]

I agree that the 50k BTU isn’t a big deal. It’s just icing on the cake.

I also agree with you that this system require fuel input while solar doesn’t. Which is why I say you can never have an apple to apple comparison, due to their fundamental differences. Keep in mind that the CE5 is the very first FC system for home use and I’m sure the tech will only get cheaper from here on out. This is why I said although 3.5 years break even point is enticing, I’m staying on the sideline and wait for the tech to mature before I make the decision.

What do you mean we don’t know if it will ever work out over 30 years compared to solar? If you want to have a more apple to apple comparison, you would have to add up the cost of NG over the life expectancy of 20 years and have a solar system that have a battery pack for time when there’s no direct sun light. I didn’t get an estimate, but you seem to know your solar, how much does a solar system with a battery pack to store the energy cost?

BTW, FC is not the only tech I’m excited about. I’m actually excited about solar as well, just not at its current price. The efficiency I’m seeing from today solar system is ~18-20%. This break through: http://news.cnet.com/Solar-cell-breaks-efficiency-record/2100-11395_3-6141527.html achieve 40.7% efficiency. When we can mass produce panel with that type of efficiency (hopefully w/in 5-10 years), then we’re looking at break even point of around 3-4 years (assuming today electricity price). If they can achieve their goal of $1/watt w/out rebate or incentive (today, it’s ~$8/watt), then it would be a definite no-brainer. This is why I’m holding out for now.

[an]

[quote=briansd1]Elizabeth Warren is populist but not in a repugnant way like Palin and Bachmann.[/quote]
I wonder if a Republican version of you would say the exact opposite.

[an]

[quote=Jacarandoso]What fuel does this technolgy use, AN?[/quote]
Natural Gas. Which is why the CE5 system actually produces about 50k BTU a year in heat as well as producing electricity. This is from their FAQ: http://clearedgepower.com/business/products-services/faq.

[an]

[quote=briansd1]Good to see you guys benefiting from government intervention.

I bet the money you guys saved on your mortgages is more than any tax rate increase you’ve yet to experience (because there weren’t any).[/quote]
I never turn away from free money. So, I’m taking full benefit of it.

WRT your second statement, no, it’s less than if my income tax get raised by 3%. My loan is small, so the $ save isn’t that big, but every $ saved is a $ earned.

[an]

[quote=Jacarandoso]Thanks AN, That is clearer. It is potentially all hope as far as I am concerned. There is no chance I am getting this thing for $3000. I do think when, and if it ever gets scaled down, then we can compare apples to apples. The inefficiencies of one off sites is going to drive the cost up for almost any technology, while panels are coming down. Also the maintenance issues with other technologies has to be considered. I will look at the videos when I have more time. I was looking at the websites you provided the last time this thread was up.[/quote]
It’s not all hope. There’s already 1 system for residential out there from ClearEdge Power, the ClearEdge5. They didn’t have a price on their website, so I can’t say how close it is to $3k. Here’s a quote from a user who have ClearEdge5 system in their house:
[quote=CE5 user]I have one of the CE5 units installed at my house. Runs well. Company support excellent payback 3.5 years. Can be used as backup generator also which is a nice feature. Simple install. I highly encourage anyone looking at shaving costs from pge to look at it.[/quote] I think 3.5 years to break even is quite enticing. I would love to jump in but my intuition is telling me these green solution will get cheaper as the tech mature, which would reduce the break even point even further. He also claim that his CE5 can be used as a generator. That would have been super sweet a few weeks ago when we had the black outs.

I don’t think you can ever get a apple to apple comparison, since fuel cell still require NG to work, while solar you do not. But then, the CE5 system can be used as a generator, so a closer to apple to apple comparison would be the CE5 vs the solar system that have a battery pack as well (system where you can be almost 100% off the grid). FC is not as green as solar, but it’s cheaper.

[an]

I’m loving these dropping rates. I just closed on a refi earlier this month at 4.375% and I just locked again at 4% with $2500 in rebate. If rate keep on dropping, I’ll refi again in 3-4 months and keep on accumulating those rebates. So, what’s the chances we’ll see a 3% no cost loan for 30 year fixed? That would be killer to lock in at 3% for 30 years. I’m making that much from my 5 year CD.

[an]

[quote=Jacarandoso]It looked like the proponents are talking about applying the system to batches of 100 houses or a small office buildings as a minimum system size. Did I misunderstand that?What are the required inputs to support and run the system? It looked like there are fuel requirements?

In any case how will this technology get to a stand alone house? If you are suggesting that consumers wait 5-10 years, while a solar system could be paying for itself and hedging against energy price increases and potential failures of competing technologies, the case needs to be stronger IMHO.

So there seem to be problems with rejecting residential solar at this time,at least for some households, based on this technology.[/quote]
Since you brought up this thread from another thread, asking for my response, here it is. You should watch is 60 minutes clip: http://youtu.be/eF0uOZSvrLA You should also take a look at this blog: http://mapawatt.com/2010/02/02/residential-natural-gas-fuel-cells/ and specifically the ClearEdge Power portion. That company actually have a residential solution today. Here’s what they claim:
[quote=ClearEdge]The list price for the ClearEdge5 is actually less expensive than equivalent residential solar PV systems, based on production. A major advantage over solar, the ClearEdge5 generates eleven times more energy than the same size solar installation. For the same capital investment, the ClearEdge5 gives you 90 MWh of annual combined electricity and heat, compared to approximately 8MWh generated by a 5kW solar system. Operating costs for the CE5 are as low as 6.0¢ per kWh based on $1.20 per therm for natural gas, assuming full electrical and heat utilization.[/quote]

The CEO claim it can be scaled down to individual household. This is his claim, not mine. I’m just excited about it if they can scale it down to individual household.

I’m not suggesting people wait 5-10 years. Everyone situation is different, so I can’t make any generic claim like that w/out looking stupid. I’m just talking about pure technological advancement and price break through. Are you claiming I can get a solar system that will pay for itself in 5 years? All the estimates I got, based on my usage, put the break even at 10-12 years with all the government rebate. I’m not rejecting residential solar, I just don’t think 10-12 year break even point is good enough for me to go solar. Especially when a) solar cost is dropping and b) new green tech are coming up that would make it cheaper. Even if bloom energy never able to get it down to residential level, the dropping in price of solar alone is keeping me from getting a system today.

So, let me repeat just in case I’m not clear. I’m not saying everyone should forget about solar and wait for this bloom energy in 5-10 years. I’m saying for me, solar is not a good enough value at this time and I’m excited about a) newer/different green tech and b) the increase in efficiency of solar panel and declining in solar panel cost.

[an]

[quote=Jacarandoso][quote=AN][quote=profhoff]YouTube viewing stats undercount embedded videos, especially popular ones.[/quote]
Do you have proof of this?[/quote]

Speaking of proof AN, can you go back to solar thread and prove that for $3K I can get the solar system you were touting as smart compared to panels?

O.k. Excuse me, I like Warren also.[/quote]
What solar thread and where did I claim you can get a solar system for $3k? I love to get one of those system too.

Edit: I found the thread you’re talking about now. You should really go back and read it again. I never said you can get a solar system for $3k. I said the CEO of this company: http://www.bloomenergy.com/ on 60 minutes claim he will be selling these to residential for ~$3k. It’s fuel cell, not solar. So, what kind of proof do you want again?

[an]

[quote=profhoff]YouTube viewing stats undercount embedded videos, especially popular ones.[/quote]
Do you have proof of this?

[an]

Do you mean linked by multiple sites or reproduced (i.e. copy the video and put it on their own server?) I’m looking at the view count on youtube (the original source that huffington is linking from).

[an]

Personally, when I deal with contractors, I will try and buy the materials myself. Then hire the contractor to do the labor. I won’t pay them a dime until they finish. When they need to buy materials to complete the job, I always tell them to have the vendor give me a call when they’re at the cash register and I’ll give them my credit card info. So, the contract don’t have to pay a dime to do the job. But then they won’t get paid till they finish the job as well. I’m not sure how a hard project would work, but I would try to follow that philosophy. I’ve complete gutted out my house, put in new kitchen, bath, flooring, etc. and that method have worked out well. I tend to fill the garage with materials, then contact the contractors.

[an]

181k views after 4 days is viral now?

[Author]

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