[an]

[quote=Ren]Some of you will probably appreciate this. It’s the reason internal combustion engines will never go away even when gas is $20/gallon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRYYe0kLCto%5B/quote%5D
I’m sure you can record that sound track and put it in an electric car :-D.

[an]

[quote=Ren]Like I said, it’s subjective, and you have to weigh every factor, not just weight. All else being equal, if one car is 50 pounds lighter than another, I’ll take it even if my butt dyno can’t tell the difference, but I CAN tell a 200 pound difference. One of the most fun cars I’ve ever owned was an ’87 924S, which didn’t make enough power to get out of its own way, but it excelled everywhere else. The example I gave with the Mini was just an exaggeration to show WHY I like certain cars more than others. Some people prefer a boat with gobs of torque – more power to them.[/quote]
You won’t get an argument from me that if all else being equal, I’d also take the one that’s lighter. However, it’s never the case that all else are equal. Here, you’re trading 200 lb for 100 HP. I test drove both the 330 and the G35 before I bought the G35. I couldn’t tell any difference in term of the handling. The G35 was I think 100lb heavier but I can’t tell and deficit in handling or feel, but I can tell the big HP difference. I’m a car enthusiast and I love both. I can appreciate the Corvette/Viper of the world as well as the Elise of the world. I think both type of cars are fun. They’re just different type of fun. If I get my way, I’d get both. What we have between the 328/G37 is much harder to distinguish in term of handling.
[quote=Ren]You’re right – the BMW will cost more to mod, because that’s how the BMW aftermarket is. (I am VERY impressed with the low-end torque of the new BMW turbo 4, btw.)
By “embarrass” I was actually aiming pretty cheap, as it wouldn’t be embarrassing to be beaten by another bimmer 🙂 … as in Cobalt SS or SRT-4. Those two by themselves make ridiculous amounts of power for very little. To give an example of a car that I am more familiar with (my wrong wheel drive daily driver):
’10-’12 Mazdaspeed 3 – $25k off the lot
$350 – Autotech high pressure fuel pump internals
$340 – Cobb intake/turbo inlet pipe
$500 – downpipe
$520 – Cobb Accessport (for tuning)
$120 – stiffer rear motor mount (to dampen the horrific torque steer and wheel hop)
That $1,800 results in somewhere just north of 300hp/350tq (up from 240/260) to the wheels and will easily stomp a 335 or G37. In fact, when you see a lowered MS3, it most likely has all that under the hood.[/quote]
You won’t get any argument from me here either. Those turbo 4s you mentioned (you forgot the WRX/STi/EVO) can easily make low 300WHP without much sweat. Like you mentioned, I don’t think you can mod a BMW like you can with those for two main reasons. 1. The market for modding a 328i/528i is much smaller than those other 4 bangers we just mentioned. Due to market size, you won’t have as many options and the options you get tend to be much more expensive. 2. Those engines are specifically designed for high power, so I would think they’re built much stronger than a 328/528 would (but that’s just a guess).
[quote=Ren]There are several MS3s with big turbos at over 500hp at the wheels. That’s a $1,500 kit plus the above bolt-ons, with completely stock block/pistons/cam/rods/etc. That’s a reliable (as long as you keep an eye on things), 2.3 liter 4-banger. Granted they’re useless in the rain 🙂
Visit the SRT-4 and Cobalt forums for other examples of even easier and more ridiculous power. Not that I would ever buy either one.[/quote]
I can see low 300WHP being reliable, but I’m very skeptical of a stock 4 banger being able to push over 500WHP on stock block & head. Even EVOs have to start getting head work to breath better and sleeves to strengthen the combustion chamber when you start to push around 400WHP. My idea of reliable is when you can take that car to the track, beat it up for a day, and still be able to drive home without much worries. A 4 bangers pushing 500WHP would also be quite peaky. The VQ is built quite strong as well. There are plenty of people pushing 700-800WHP on stock bottom end. Twin turbo of course.
[quote=Ren]Regardless, it’s a pointless argument, because my tastes are different than yours. My dream car is a Cayman R with a GT3 swap, not a Ferrari or Lambo. If I had a more understanding wife, I’d be driving a Dinan 335 right now, but until then, I keep up with a stock 335 (and G37, and 996) just fine.[/quote]
I don’t think your taste is that different than mine. I just have a broader range :-). Like I said earlier, I love both end of the spectrum and I think they are both fun, just different. I actually would take a Cayman R with a GT3 swap over a Ferrari/Lambo as well :-D, so we’re not that different. I actually would take one step further and say I would take a Elise+K20 fully built NA. Those K20 can push high 200WHP NA and be able to rev past 9k RPM. Combine that with a 1800lb car and it would be a lot more fun than a Cayman R + GT3 engine :-D. If you have a HP bug, you can always toss in a small turbo into the mix as well. A K20 with a small turbo can easily push mid 300WHP.

I used to have a decently modded Integra. I love the G35 when I first bought it, but after driving it for 8 years, I yearn for sub 3000lb cars again, preferably low 2000lb. Like the 328, my G is 3300-3400lb, they’re both still are pigs to me. A lighter pig, but still a pig. I won’t worry too much between 3400lb and 3600lb. Now, if you tell me, the 328i is 2800-2900lb, then I’d pick the 328i in a heart beat. Also remember, the 328i weight they’re quoting is for a car with no power or heated seat. Toss in a pair of powered heated seats and you can easily add about 100lb. Also, the 328i is riding on 18″ vs 19″ for the G. If you get the same set of 19″ rims, you’d probably add a few more pounds as well. My point is, the chassis weight is probably similar. You’re just getting more comfort and bling in the G, which is the major cause of that 200lb.

[an]

[quote=flu](hijack)

AN, if I recall, you mentioned your spource had a w203 c240. Still got it? If so, can you check your PM. I got a big favor to ask you. Has to do with a rebuild, and got it pretty much finished except I forget where a wiring harness goes 🙂

(Anyone have else have a w203 C class, PM me too).

Thanks…[/quote]
Sorry, I sold that awhile ago when major repair starts coming. It’s expensive to maintain a German with >100k miles.

[an]

[quote=Ren]As for the 328/G argument – for many car enthusiasts, it isn’t always about test results. It’s about steering ratio and turn-in, road feel, weight, driver position, etc. Some of those qualities are subjective, but they’re the reason that a Mini is far more fun to drive than a 400hp Camaro, and why I’d take a 328 over a G37. The G does have a great exhaust note, though.

Besides, performance is easy. Slap $2k in mods on just about any factory turboed 4-banger, and it will embarrass a G37 or 335. A stock 335, anyway.

Props to BMW for making the new 3-series lighter than the outgoing model – a step in the right direction after the last decade of bloat.[/quote]
I agree with you it’s not always about the number. But numbers are not irrelevant either. A G37 is hardly like a Camaro and a 328i is hardly a Mini. The Camaro is ~500lb heavier than the G37 and the Mini is ~500lb lighter than the 328. Weight, like all other metrics is one of a factor. But if it’s as important as you suggested, then the 328i should be more fun than the M3, since the M3 is heavier. The 328i is 200 lb lighter than the G37 but it’s 100 HP less. 200lb is much harder to notice than the 1400lb example you just gave.

As many car enthusiast know, handling is only one portion of equation. Power is the another. Having the ability to accelerate in an uphill on ramp (not having to wait to hit the power band) because you have gobs of low end torque does make a car more fun to drive as well. The ability to accelerate at 65MPH without the need to down shift is another. Like weight and power, braking is also another very important factor. When you have a linear brake feel and good brakes that allow you brake deeper into corner also make the car more fun to drive.

I’ve never read any review that complain about the G’s handling. The only area I’ve heard people complain about is the clutch being heavy and the engine not being as smooth an I6. I agree with both of those. However, the new 328, like you said, is no longer using the I6. I4 are inherently not as smooth as the I6 as well.

If you read the C&D review, they praise the G37’s steering, handling, power, cockpit, etc. I.E. in term of performance, it was the superior car. But not all car please all people in term of driving position. I had no problem with either the 3 series or the G.

Would you take a Miata over a S2000 or Z4M because it’s lighter? It also make significantly less power.

Since you open the can of worms wrt modding… I’m not too sure you can say slapping $2k in mods in a new Turbo I4 328i will allow it to “embarrass” a G37 or the 335. The G37 dyno at 287WHP and the 335 dyno at close to 300WHP. So you need a lot more than a chip and an exhaust to embarrass either of those cars. I don’t think a chip and an exhaust can make up a 80-100WHP deficit. If you’re lucky, you’ll gain 50-60WHP. You should also keep in mind that the G37 is also the cheaper car. So, you can easily take the $ you save and toss in a supercharger for around $6-7k. A street legal Vortech system in an older G35 makes close to 400WHP. There’s no way you can mod an I4 to get that kind of power. My brother have an Evo, and he’s doing much more than bolt on to get near 400WHP. We’re talking about cams, valve, valve springs, etc. So, in essence, once you start modding, it would be more advisable to go with the cheapest car with a great platform. Tossing on a set of KW Variant 3 + thicker sway bars + strut bars and it’ll perform better than any stock cars out there w/in similar price range.

Like I said earlier, I like the the trend the car companies are heading to. Lighter cars with more use of turbo.

[an]

[quote=flu]Yeah, I know. When you have interns at google get paid more than some full time people in san diego, you know things are kinda wacked. :([/quote]
Maybe those interns are much more productive and write much better code than those full timer :-D. Just in case it doesn’t come across… /sarcasm.

[an]

SINA is not new. They’ve been publicly traded since 2001. They’re more of a Yahoo than a Twitter. Although, SINA, SOHU, BIDU all have live “tweet” feed, so you can kinda say they have some Twitter in them.

[an]

flu, you’re right. Looking closer, they do look PS’ed. The actual response is kinda lame compared to these PS’ed one. Too bad the other auto makers didn’t enter into the war. Would be fun to watch.

I think BMW is the Apple of the automaker world. Their marketing team is top notched. This is also why car companies need Halo cars. At the end of the day, Audi can always respond with whatever BMW throw at it with the R10.

[an]

Audi and BMW have been going back and forth for awhile. Here’s Audi’s answer to BMW’s “checkmate”:

Here’s another answer from Audi:

And here’s another:

Here’s another ad war with Subaru and Bentley entering the mix: http://ckweblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/09/ad-war/

[an]

My wife loves her Kindle as well. If you like to read and shop at Amazon a lot, you might also want to consider getting Amazon Prime. You can borrow one book a month for free. They have some new releases on the rental list.

[an]

flu, afaik, Google is doing a lot of research on this. So are a few other automakers. Audi introduced something similar in the A8. Infiniti already have system that slow the car down to a craw and speed back up. So you can set your cruise control at 65MPH and never have to put your foot on the brake/gas again while sitting in traffic (laser guided cruise control). They also have camera all around the cars to keep it in lane by applying brakes at the correct wheel to bring the car back into correct position. So, it’s not too far of a jump to put them all together. Mercedes also have something similar as well. Lexus can already park itself. In another word, for those who don’t like to drive, I would say, in the next 10-20 years, they might not need to.

As a car enthusiast, I’m more excited about the current trend of more powerful smaller engines with the help of turbo(s) and the race of lighten up the car with more exotic materials like aluminum and carbon fiber.

[an]

Congrats TG. Only you know what’s fun enough for you. A good deal is definitely icing on the cake.

Don’t worry about me blowing your doors off on the freeway. I stop doing that nonsense years ago. I still have fun getting up to 80MPH ASAP but I tend to back off once I get there. I rather having fun with my car on a real track.

[an]

[quote=paramount]AN:

The only person that believes your 8 year old car is better than a new 328i is you.[/quote]
Yeah, sure. Numbers don’t lie man. You can talk about mag racing all you want. Tell me when your 328i can do 14 sec flat on the quarter mile or when you start taking your 328 to a real race track. Until then, you’re just imagining things and making things up.

[quote=paramount]At any rate, I’m not a realtor and thus not part of the 1%, so my idea of fun more or less applies to the 99%ers.

A 328i is realistic for many, a M3/5 and a lot of other car you mention is not.

A BMW M Series borders on the exotic.

BTW AN, I tore up a G37 today in the carpool lanes. Once the powerband kicks in on my 328i the only thing you’ll be seeing is my dorsal fin (that little fin thingy on my roof).[/quote]WTF does being in the 1% or 99% have ANYTHING to do with having fun cars? FYI, a used 2006 M5 is going for around low $30k. It’s CHEAPER than a brand new 328i. A used M3 is even cheaper. So, if anything, you got your facts backward. FYI, a used 2006 M5 will be MUCH MUCH more fun to drive than the newest 328i.

M3/M5/M6 ARE NOT borders on exotic. That just show how much you know about cars. They’re just supped up 3/5/6 series. They’re much your fun to drive than their mundane base that it came from. But to say they’re near exotic is LUDICROUS. Their performance numbers can’t even touch a $50k Camaro, how can you even claim they’re borders on the exotic?

A 328i tearing up a G37? Was he stuck in non-carpool traffic or was he braking? Either that or he didn’t even noticed you tried to race him. You sound like those supped up Civic who tried to race everyone and say they tear $hit up when the other person didn’t even know you’re racing them. I DO NOT condone street racing. If you wanna prove that your 328i can tear $hit up, show me your time slip at the quarter mile. Until I see 1/4 time slip that’s faster than 14 seconds, you got nothing on my lowly 8 years old car or the new G37.

Just for reference, here’s the 328 dyno chart:

So, please do tell, where in the power band did you start noticing the “powerband kicks in”? The only time I hear anyone talking about power band kicking in are either from turbo folks who have turbo lags or Honda and Celica GT-S folks who are referring to when their VTEC/VVTL kicks in.

Just for additional reference, here’s the G37 dyno:

Here’s the dyno of a car like mine, but stock:
A couple of points to keep in mind. Mine’s not stock and at no time in the power band does a 328i make more power than either of these cars. Another laughable fact is that, the peak torque for the 328i is only 185 ft-lb. The only time either of these two car make that little torque is <2k rpm (i.e. near idle) and in my car case, when I'm about to shift. Even at red line (when the G37 runs out of breath), it makes more torque than the 328i can make at peak.

Also, FYI, that "dorsal fin" is your XM antenna. 😀

[an]

[quote=sdrealtor]A7 series is not fun. It’s a great car but it’s big enough to warrant its own zip code. To me fun is big enough for two people upfront and two golf bags in the trunk. Any bigger than that and we are inviting room for things less fun.[/quote]
You and I are thinking in absolute fun while paramount is thinking in relative fun. The 7 series is more fun an A8 or S-class. So, we all can be right, but our definition of fun are quite different. Where we stand depends on where we sit. I’m currently driving a 8 years old car that’s more powerful, brake shorter, and can handle better than a brand new 328i. Since I’ve grown accustom to this level of performance (I don’t consider it as “that fun” anymore), 328i is definitely lacking in all areas that’s important to make it fun. The 328i does get better MPG than my car though :-D.

[an]

[quote=paramount]AN: Naturally this is a subjective matter as to what is fun to drive, but your argument regarding a 328 or BMW in general is the same as saying the New England Patriots, while better than the Chargers, are just an OK football team.

A person is free to say that, but no one agrees with you.

I do like that Camaro, but if I were going GM I’d lean towards the CTS-V.[/quote]
Sorry, your 328 vs G37 to Patriots vs Chargers analogies doesn’t make sense. In order for that analogies to work, the Chargers have to better in every categories except for low fan turn outs. The numbers doesn’t lie. You can either look at the numbers and drive it yourself or listen to some mag writer. FYI, most mags pit the G37 vs the 335, not the 328. Some put the G37 on top of the 335 while others put the 335 on top. So, how can the G37 be on top of the 335 and below the 328? Simple answer, it’s that writer’s personal preference. The only thing you can look at objectively is the performance numbers, the features, and the price. The rest are very subjective.

So, to wrap up your bad conclusion from a faulty analogy with a question. Which team have less turn over, more driving yards, more touch downs, and better in most other measurable stats?

CTS-V is more expensive, slower and heavier. Again, your definition of fun is quite different than mine.

[an]

Sorry paramount, but all of those quotes does not describe a Secretariat. IIRC, Secretariat is a RACE horse. I.E. its sole purpose was to win races. Tell me one BMW that gets time faster than 7 minutes 41 seconds at the Nurburgring, then we can talk.

No one ever said, hey, Secretariat rides pretty smoothly. Secretariat earns its name because of its performance on the race track.

BMW have a well balanced machine. I don’t deny that, never did. But you need more than a well balance machine to dial up the fun factor and to be compared to Secretariat. BTW, just because BMW win accolades from magazines doesn’t mean it’s the best car for everyone. Not everyone want a car that’s just good every categories. Maybe they want exceptional or excellent in some categories in exchange for average/below average in others. I.E. I’d trade gas mileage for HP, braking and handling (G37 vs 328i). So, while the 328i might be the more “balanced” car, it’s not the best car on that list for me and those who want more fun at the cost of MPG.

Most BMW are moderately fun driving machine. But for a weekend car, sometimes, you need to dial back the practical and dial up the fun. In another word, more HP, better brakes, and better handling. A 328i is not what I’d call a fun car to drive. Sure, it’s more fun than a Camry/Accord, but it’s far down on the fun totem pole for me. So, while you’d suggest a used 7 series, I’d suggest a used M5. See where we differ in the definition of fun? I would never consider a 7 series to be a fun car to drive. Sure, it’s more fun than a S-class and A8, but it’s not nearly as fun as a M5, RS6, E63 AMG. To dial up the fun even more and dial back the practical, I’d rather have GT-R/ZR1/911 Turbo. This is not TG’s daily driver. It’s his weekend car.

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