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February 11, 2013 at 11:17 PM in reply to: Obama re-elected to grow our national pie, not just re-divide it #759209
an
Participant[quote=CA renter]AN, please directly reference the quote where I said that leverage = failure.[/quote]http://piggington.com/over_21_of_homeowners_in_sd_county_have_paid_off_houses?page=1. You said [quote=CA renter]but that is different from leveraging up to buy multiple properties, stocks, futures contracts, or getting into “partnerships” or investing with fast-talking salespeople, etc. which is a recipe for failure more often than not, IMHO.[/quote] I was short handing leverage = failure, they’re not your exact words.
[quote=CA renter] It doesn’t always lead to failure, but lots of leverage, especially when everybody is leveraging up at the same time to buy assets because people are expecting future price increases, will fail more often than not, IMHO. I’ve said before that self-liquidating debt is fine, and debt that a person can easily pay back is fine, too; but when people are leveraging up to speculate (and then expect everyone else to bail them out later because “nobody could see it coming”), it is not fine.[/quote]I agree with this, but this is no different than the vast majority who lives pay check to pay check and use their credit cards to finance their consumption.
[quote=CA renter]Also, as someone who is currently fighting the BK of a small business that owes us money, and as a result have spent far too much time listening to BK hearings, I would definitely say that all of us are paying for these deadbeats…and yes, I’m judging many of them. Like BG said, you ought to sit in on these hearings so that you can get a better understanding of how people got into debt, and how the creditors (and the customers of the institutional creditors, and taxpayers who are bailing out these institutions, too) are bailing out all of these deadbeats. Go to the hearings, and you’ll see it’s even worse than you would ever imagine. And the bar for declaring BK is way too low, IMHO. It’s sickening.[/quote]It sounded like you took the calculated risk to be a lender and failed. There’s nothing wrong with failing. You get up and try again. We’ve all have our failures.
February 11, 2013 at 9:11 PM in reply to: Obama re-elected to grow our national pie, not just re-divide it #759205Participant[quote=CA renter][quote=AN]Another medical advancement that will greatly improve a lot of people’s quality of life if they can have the same success in human as dogs:
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=29872%5B/quote%5D
This sounds exceptionally promising. Let’s hope they have similar successes with humans.[/quote]
This is the reason why I’ve said before that if you’re alive and healthy today, it’s very likely that you’ll live much longer than your parents’ generation. Not because you eat better or exercise more, but mainly due to medical advancements like these. Yes, eating right and exercise will help a lot, but these kind of medical advancement will allow even the lazy to live well beyond their years.February 11, 2013 at 3:22 PM in reply to: Obama re-elected to grow our national pie, not just re-divide it #759195ParticipantAnother medical advancement that will greatly improve a lot of people’s quality of life if they can have the same success in human as dogs:
Participant[quote=bearishgurl][quote=AN]Uh, if a business run out of cash to operate, then they did fail. When they fail, the SBA didn’t give them more money to keep on operating. This is no different than FHA, etc. If you think these are the same as the bail out of big banks a few years back, then I stand by my statement that WE ALL can be bailed out, so quit complaining.[/quote]
I’m stating the biz owners who were successful in securing SBA loans to help them continue or get restarted DID get all or part of the money to do so.
With FHA loans, there is collateral given in the form of real property. This is not (usually) so with SBA loans.
You can call SBA loans “bailouts” if you wish. In my mind, they are only “bailouts” if they are non-performing. In any case, they are fully dischargeable in BK proceedings.
You were the one “complaining” here when you stated that small biz owners don’t get “bailed out.”
[quote=AN] . . . BTW, last I check, the many small business owners who leverage to start their business and fail didn’t get bailed out. So, again, your broad stroke brush is horrible. . . .[/quote]
The fact is that many of them DID, courtesy of the Federal gubment.[/quote]
Uh, you’re the one that’s calling SBA a bailout. I didn’t and am not. In my eye, they’re similar to FHA, Fanny, Freddy, etc.I didn’t “complain” small biz owners don’t get bail out. I’m stating the fact that they don’t get bail out like the big bank did. What you described is NOTHING like the kind of bailouts the big banks got. Again, do you think SBA will give a second loan to shore up a failed business? Do you think when a small biz file for BK, SBA step in and say, don’t file for BK, here are some more money to turn your companies around?
Participant[quote=bearishgurl]In a way, yes. These small businesses don’t necessarily “fail,” but they run out of capital to replace old and/or broken equipment and thus sometimes have to suspend operations because of that. The SBA has programs available to apply for funds to “grow” a business (or restart one that has temporarily been “suspended.”)
In addition, they have programs to prospective new biz owners who only have an idea and a business plan but little else.
In the smaller loans made by the SBA and participating lender (<$100K), there is almost never any collateral given. Just like a student loan, the SBA lenders are relying on the "integrity, wherewithal and talent" of the applicant to be paid back on time and in full.[/quote] Uh, if a business run out of cash to operate, then they did fail. When they fail, the SBA didn't give them more money to keep on operating. This is no different than FHA, etc. If you think these are the same as the bail out of big banks a few years back, then I stand by my statement that WE ALL can be bailed out, so quit complaining.
Participant[quote=bearishgurl][quote=AN][quote=bearishgurl] . . . This is just ONE “SBA loan.”
Ask yourself who pays for all of this …. :=0[/quote]Not the tax payer. At least nothing like the kind of bail out we saw with the big banks recently. But if your argument is they’re the same, then EVERYONE is being bailed out. So, no point in complaining about bailout since we all will be bailed out.[/quote]
Is the SBA not a gubment organization? Who do you think pays to run it and for any “guarantees” it makes on small business loans??
http://www.sba.gov/%5B/quote%5D
Please tell me, did the SBA gave these small businesses more money when they fail so they can keep on operating their business?Participant[quote=bearishgurl][quote=AN] . . . BTW, last I check, the many small business owners who leverage to start their business and fail didn’t get bailed out. So, again, your broad stroke brush is horrible. . . .[/quote]
AN, you need to spend some time in BK court, just to observe. I think it would be enlightening for you. Thousands upon thousands of small biz loans made in this country and “guaranteed” by the “Small Business Administration” (SBA) have defaulted since the inception of the program. Many of the applicants merely had to show a “business plan” to obtain these loans from banks.
I happen to know of a person who applied for (and obtained) one of these loans from a well-known Big Bank. This individual had zero “clients” in said “business” for the four years preceding his application! Of course, the Big Bank didn’t check this info out before handing him the money.
The debtor promptly bought a large boat with the proceeds and then defaulted on the loan after seven months of payments.
When the Big Bank sued and got a default judgement against this individual for the $65K (plus interest and late fees), the judgment debtor promptly put the boat into a relative’s name before they could file a writ of attachment on it.
The Big Bank then filed a lien on his home but they are junior to other creditor’s liens and, in any case, the home (which the debtor rec’d “free and clear” from his deceased father over 30 years ago) is overmortgaged.
This is just ONE “SBA loan.”
Ask yourself who pays for all of this …. :=0[/quote]Not the tax payer. At least nothing like the kind of bail out we saw with the big banks recently. But if your argument is they’re the same, then EVERYONE is being bailed out. So, no point in complaining about bailout since we all will be bailed out.
ParticipantCAR, where did I ever said it was OK for any of these bailout? Last I check, I gripe about all bailouts, not just pension bailouts. You fail to see that leverage investors are no different than the million of Americans who leverage to buy their home (not for investment). You’re free to judge your friend(s) all you want, but when you make blanket statements like leverage = failure, that’s where I’ve proven that you’re wrong with your broad strokes.
BTW, last I check, the many small business owners who leverage to start their business and fail didn’t get bailed out. So, again, your broad stroke brush is horrible.
By your logic, feel free to vote out all who voted for bail outs, regardless of party line. After all, it’s those in government that voted for the bailouts. Are you willing to do that? I would.
ParticipantSorry CAR, but loosing your life is 1000000X more to lose than even a $1M. Losing a $1M can be gained back but once you lose your life, that’s it. No second chances. So, they’re not even on the same level when we’re talking about risk.
You say you attribute 90% of your success on luck, yet, you don’t seem to attribute 90% of those who took the risk and fail on bad luck. Why is that? Why is your success is 90% good luck and someone else’s failure is not 90% bad luck?
Again, I don’t like to paint with a broad stroke and I don’t know enough about people’s finances and their risk taking to judge them when they fail. You might be OK with judging them for their failures, but I think often times, there are more information that I don’t know about, so I rather not judge. Everyone has the freedom to take whatever risk they feel is appropriate for them. Some will succeed and some will fail, even at the example same risk tolerance level. So, I’m not going to sit here and say, my risk level is just right and those who take more risk than me are just foolish and deserve their failure.
Participant[quote=flyer]AN
You make some excellent points, and, from what you’ve shared, agree that many take all that we’ve been given simply by birthright for granted. Being born in this Country is a gift, and, hopefully, more of us will realize that.
I am extremely aware of that fact, because several generations of my family fought to secure the freedom all of us enjoy today. My Dad was an Admiral who made some very key decisions during one of the greatest conflicts in which this nation has ever been involved.
You should be very proud of what you have accomplished, and the life you are trying to provide for your family.
Hopefully, whatever risks you choose to take will be well rewarded.[/quote]Unfortunately, I don’t have high hope that more American will realize the gifts they were given, just by the mere fact of being born in this country and the kind of opportunity that exists here that isn’t available in most other countries.
I’m glad you’re aware of what were given to you by the mere fact of being born here. I’m also thankful for people like your dad who made this country the way it is.
I’m very humble by what I’ve accomplished so far, which is far less than many others. But I will continue to try. I just get a little riled up sometimes when people, who often were born with a “silver spoon” to a certain extent, marginalize their gifts and think other are able to achieve their level of success by doing it the way they did. I just like to point out with examples where sometimes, some of us have no choice but to swing for the fences, else we wouldn’t be anywhere close to where we are today. Some will fail while swinging for the fence, but we won’t stop swinging just because we fail, once, twice, three times.
ParticipantCAR, I totally agree no one should expect everyone else to have to pay for their losses. I also like to extend that to those who don’t take risk and are sucking on the government tits.
Yes, we all are sharing our opinion. I wasn’t debating on whether your opinion on your own risk tolerance and desire were adequate or not. I was debating on your constant rail on those who took more risks than you and draw with a very broad stroke by say those who do have/will fail or that they throw all caution to the wind and swing for the fences.
However, you often fail to see that you yourself were given a silver spoon. Not only where your parents were very educated, but they took advantage of the RE market and inflation, that allow you to make financial decision with no leverage. Not all of us were given that silver spoon. Tell me, do you think you could make those same decisions and be where you are today, if your reading/writing are at a 6th grade level? Let me tell you another story about someone who swing for the fences and succeed. I know a couple who came to America about 30 years ago. They weren’t educated in their home country. They came here and to this day, their reading/writing level is probably no better than a 6th grader. They took ESL when they came to learn the basic. Then they started to work for a company. Then soon after, they started their serial small business venture. Every venture was a swing for the fence because they can’t afford to fail. Today, they have well over $1M in RE investment (free and clear) along with a decently successful business. Many business before this one failed. But that didn’t stop them. If they were to follow your advice, they probably are home collecting welfare. So, yes, often times, when you’re not born with a silver spoon in your mouth, you have to swing for the fences to get yourself out of the social economic condition you’re placed in.
ParticipantCAR, reading your post, it sounds a lot like, do as I say and not as I do. You think you know what’s the appropriate level of risk is and anyone who takes more risk are throwing all caution to the wind and when the fail, it’s all their fault. While you attribute your success from taking risk to your know how and your own calculation. It sounds awfully like you know what’s best and your path is ideal for everyone.
ParticipantER, again, you fail to see that swinging for the fences does not equal not taking the calculated risk and not swinging for the fences equal taking calculated risk.
There are people who I know who swung for the fences and put their lives at risk. The know that if they don’t, their children and children’s children will be in much worse situation and they’re willing to risk their lives to give their children the opportunity they know their kids won’t have if they don’t take that risk. For some, it paid off in spades while others died trying.
Then there are people I know who put down 20%+ down to buy a house in 2005. Their income can support the payment. So, they’re not taking that much of a risk. But they failed to see the biggest bubble right in front of their face.
I never said you should throw all caution to the wind and just swing for the fences for the sake of hitting it big without proper risk management. I hope you can see that taking risk and calculating that risk are not mutually exclusive.
WRT to the silver spoon comment, that might be a little hyperbolic (just a little) but unless you’ve lose families due to political unrest and lived through it, you really don’t know how good you have it here. Even the poorest person here is much better off than the average person in the country I came from. The silver spoon statement is basically regarding the endless opportunity that an American have at their disposal if they just try. The kind of opportunity that many have and are willing to die for. So yes, in a way, it is like a silver spoon.
ParticipantER, what you fail to see is the fact that you’re born here in the US already mean you already won a pretty large vagina lottery. So, your argument only apply if you got that good luck. Some people were not born with that silver spoon fed in their mouth. I know many who risk it ALL. When I say ALL, I mean their lives, not just money. Money can be made back. I know many who died trying. Literally dying, and not just lost their money. I also know many who are now millionaires because they took those risk. So, yeah, sometimes, you have to risk it all. I also know those who didn’t take the risk and now are stuck in an environment where there’s very little upside financially.
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