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Participant[quote=CA renter][quote=AN][quote=CA renter]Read the links from the above posts. We’ve already done this before.
I’m referring to the same student populations (SES/demographic backgrounds) from within this country.[/quote]Then how do you explain Preuss School UCSD? Yes we’ve talked about this many times before. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. FYI, you can’t state public school is the best and cheapest when it’s absolutely not true. When I see private school have 12-1 teacher to student ratio while public school have 24-1 or 30-1, how can you even say with a straight face that public school is the cheapest.[/quote]
Already done that one, too! ;)[/quote]FYI, all you said is (SES/demographic backgrounds). If you bring in IQ and desire to learn, does your other study also make sure all students have similar IQ and similar desire to learn? If you seriously think that’s a good argument, then it can be used to reject ALL studies thus far relating to school choice.
[quote=CA renter]Here is a small sampling of what Preuss offers (regular public schools can’t even begin to offer all of this, or the state would have been broke decades ago):[/quote]Why? If Preuss can do it, why can’t public school? If there’s no way public school can do it, why not open 100+ more Preuss?
Participant[quote=CA renter]Neither one of us knows about the particular circumstances, nor do we know what prompted the teachers to say these things. Again, I’m not justifying it and have never said these types of things to either my students or my own kids (unfortunately, many parents do). But we need to know the context in order to ascertain what was going on at that given moment with the teacher and your wife.
FWIW, some movies are incredibly educational and can explain certain concepts in a way that a teacher never can. These movies often incorporate technology and can utilize some of the world’s most knowledgeable speakers who can present the information in a truly unique and relevant way. Again, not saying kids should just sit and watch movies, but you and I don’t know what was going on in that classroom. (And I’ve shown perhaps one movie/year in my classroom, if that.)[/quote]No, I might not have been there but my wife and cousin were. There’s a reason why they remember those incident and those teachers so clearly a couple of decades later. And let me tell you, it wasn’t because they were inspired.
If a movie can do a better job than a teacher teaching, then why they hell are we paying so much for teachers? We can just sit them in front of a TV for 8 hours and they can learn everything there for a lot cheaper.
Participant[quote=CA renter]I’ve known a couple of teachers who were anti-union, but they are few and far between because the union is the only thing protecting teachers from some very dangerous, power-hungry, and domineering administrators and parents.[/quote]It’s called life.
Participant[quote=CA renter]While they might not criticize the union, per se, they DO criticize certain teachers and the possible union protection they might get when they don’t deserve it.[/quote]They why don’t they do something about it? Talk is cheap.
Participant[quote=CA renter]Read the links from the above posts. We’ve already done this before.
I’m referring to the same student populations (SES/demographic backgrounds) from within this country.[/quote]Then how do you explain Preuss School UCSD? Yes we’ve talked about this many times before. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. FYI, you can’t state public school is the best and cheapest when it’s absolutely not true. When I see private school have 12-1 teacher to student ratio while public school have 24-1 or 30-1, how can you even say with a straight face that public school is the cheapest.
Participant[quote=CA renter]Teachers know far more about education than Doug Manchester does. Additionally, they aren’t trying to fool the masses, like Manchester does, by using the “taxpayer advocate” label while trying to push their agenda. I can assure you that most citizens benefit far more from the teachers’ unions than they do from Doug Manchester’s actions.[/quote]I’ve never heard any teacher who are part of the teacher’s union say any critical about the teacher’s union. That’s as bias as it comes.
Participant[quote=CA renter]Your cousin remembers that story, too. Not justifying it (not at all), but many people will point to a situation where someone telling them that they couldn’t do something was what pushed them to perform. Perhaps her teacher telling her this pushed her to do better.
Maybe your wife’s teacher was trying to push your wife even further because that teacher saw that your wife was just lucky, intellectually, and was skating because of her natural intelligence…and wanted her to work harder and reach for more (again, NOT justifying it!).
It wouldn’t be the first time a naysayer pushed someone to go beyond what they would have done without this experience.[/quote]Both are completely wrong assumptions. If your definition of a quite good teacher is one who tell an elementary kid they’ll amount to nothing, then we’ll just have to agree to disagree, because your definition of quite good is quite lacking.
As for my wife, that same teacher recently went through a divorce and most of the time in class, all she did was show movies. A separate but similar incident, she told my wife that “not everyone will like you”, as if that has anything to do with her grades.
Participant[quote=CA renter]Basically, we’ll have to agree to disagree. Public schools have the best track record for student outcomes at the lowest cost when taking into consideration the students’ SES and demographic backgrounds. Many studies show this while I have yet to see a study showing that vouchers or private charters perform better than public schools *given the same student populations.*[/quote]There’s no way to prove this one way or the other, unless you actually have it happen, since no other country have our student population. So, your “study” doesn’t exist.
Participant[quote=CA renter]While these teachers might not have inspired you, it doesn’t mean that they didn’t inspire other students. I’ve signed up for teachers that other students said were great, but they did nothing for me, and vice versa. Personally, as a student, I do very well with teachers who “teach to the board,” and don’t do as well with teachers who are more “crafty and creative.” I like very organized, disciplined teachers, too. But that’s just me. Some students can’t stand that style.
I agree that some teachers are truly exceptional while others are truly bad. Both extremes, especially at the far ends of the spectrum, are rare. Most teachers are quite good.
People need to separate teaching and personality styles from what is “good” and “bad.” It’s all a matter of perspective, IMO.
And no, I was not an older teacher when I left the profession. It’s just that I’ve seen things from the inside and know how many people tend to cling to fads which make them think that those who don’t follow the fads are somehow “bad” teachers.[/quote]It wasn’t just me. All the students knows it was an easy A but you won’t learn much. It was AP Chem, so the student body wasn’t your average. He taught both AP Chem class. Out of 60+ students, only 11 dare to take the AP test. None past. That kinda give you a glimpse at the quality of the teacher.
I wasn’t referred to fad. I’m talking about truly bad teachers. Teachers who told their 2nd grade student that they’ll amount to nothing, so they should just stop trying. That, is what I call a bad teacher. I’m sure you’re aware of something called a bell curve. With that said, most teachers in the middle of the bell curve are average. The quite good are on the one end and the quite bad are on the other.
Participant[quote=CA renter]If you want to reduce class sizes, increase the availability of classes at the secondary level and at junior colleges, etc., then the obvious result is higher teacher compensation because they ONLY way to do that is to increase the number of teachers. That’s where the Prop 30 money has gone, and that’s where voters/taxpayers wanted it to go. Again, DUH![/quote]Think outside the box for just 1 little second and maybe you’ll have an aha moment. To reduce class size, offer a voucher system. There are many private school have a much smaller class size than public school AND charges the parents less than what public school are spending per student. Also, keep in mind these private school do not have the advantage of scale that public school have when it comes to administrative cost and supply cost.
Currently, SDUSD is spending $9,846 per student. A good (not elite) private school cost about $9-10k. With this cost, the class size range for 10-1 to 20-1 teachers to student ratio. This is from K-12 we’re talking about here. So, yeah, if it’s about class size, offer a $9846 yearly voucher to parents and their kids can have class size between 10-20 per teacher depending on grade. Sounds like an easy win IMHO.
Participant[quote=CA renter]And the notion that there are a bunch of “bad” teachers out there is BS. I’ve worked in four different schools and can easily count on one hand the total number of “bad” teachers I’ve seen. Most of the time, a “bad” teacher is labeled that way because they are willing to stand up to parents and administrators instead of eagerly following the newest trends and fads in education (which, BTW, happen to cost taxpayers a tremendous amount of money).
A teacher who’s spent 20 or 30 years in a classroom absolutely knows more about teaching and education that some yuppie know-it-all mother with ZERO teaching experience or education, or the 23 year-old who’s spent one or two years in the classroom before pursuing administrative positions.[/quote]Totally and utterly BS. Some of the teachers I stated are quite old (50+), which means they’re at least 10-20+ years of experience. As a student, you know who are the good and the bad teachers. It’s not that hard. The good teachers are those who inspired. The bad teachers are the ones who don’t care or plain old mean or even worse.
BTW, how many years have you been a teacher?
Also, since you say “Mr. Anti-Tax” have no credibility in tax mater because he pushes privatization, do you think all teachers who are part of a union have no credibility when it comes to teachers union mater?
Participant[quote=CA renter]Here’s the salary table for SD Unified’s teachers. Under no circumstances are teachers overpaid.
http://www.sandi.net/cms/lib/CA01001235/Centricity/Domain/94/salaryschedules/teachers.pdf%5B/quote%5D
Under no circumstances? Really? I can name a few teachers I had who shouldn’t be teaching at all, much less getting paid to teach. Not to mention other people I know and their stories about bad teachers. My cousin who had a teacher who told her she’ll amount to nothing. Now, she’s a Standford grad. My wife had a teacher who gave her a B on a paper and when she came to talk to her about why she got the B, the teacher told her that she doesn’t always get an A. No other reason except that. I had one teacher who basically talked to the board the minute class start till the last minute class ends. No one pays attention in class, yet it was super easy to get an A. I can go on, but you get the idea.Then there are great teachers who inspired us to be great. Those teachers should be paid a lot more than they’re currently being paid.
Participant[quote=CA renter]But let’s get back to the nuts-and-bolts of the issue. The #1 expense in education is teacher compensation. (DUH!!!!)
If you want to reduce class sizes, increase the availability of classes at the secondary level and at junior colleges, etc., then the obvious result is higher teacher compensation because they ONLY way to do that is to increase the number of teachers. Again, DUH![/quote]
I thought the administrative cost is pretty high up there too?FYI, no one say teachers should get paid less. I think great teachers should get paid a lot more while bad teachers should be fired quickly. It’s really not that complicated. Just look at every other private organization for example. The status quo is… bad teachers will get paid just as much as good teachers. Sometimes, a lot more if the good teachers are young and the bad teachers are old. That’s is as ass backward as it gets.
ParticipantCAR, first, Doug Manchester didn’t write that. But even if he did, do you think that would be any different than your opposition?
iPad debacle is as bad as the teachers in the rubber room. The iPad debacle is prime example of why giving more money to public school is not the answer. The answer is very simple, I can say it in one word: “voucher”. It’s not that complicated.
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