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December 30, 2008 at 2:07 PM in reply to: Some math on how we’re going to get out of this mess #321930
Allan from Fallbrook
ParticipantDan: It’s a distinction without difference in that both Bush and Clinton were following established covert protocols.
To whit: FISA (1978) begat the various programs that moved through NSA Carnivore/Echelon (1994) and culminated in the Patriot Act.
The idea somehow that Dubya “got off the reservation” and went rogue is arrant nonsense. It’s akin to folks claiming that if Gore had been President following 9/11 we would have seen a better script than the one Dubya followed. In terms of the Iraq II war, I would agree, but the idea that Gore would have pushed Saudi Arabia into some sort of regime change or handled Musharraf and Pakistan differently is risible.
Several posters on this board have bought into the patently absurd notion that Clinton was somehow this kinder, gentler President that was bookended by ghoulish Republicans. History tells a different tale and one that goes clear back to US involvement in the Banana Wars of the 1920s.
And, given the present state of relations with Vietnam and their movement (albeit somewhat jerkily) towards a free market economy, it is entirely arguable that we did, in fact, “win” the Vietnam War (if you buy into the “America as Empire/Trade Follows The Flag” trope).
ParticipantDan: It’s a distinction without difference in that both Bush and Clinton were following established covert protocols.
To whit: FISA (1978) begat the various programs that moved through NSA Carnivore/Echelon (1994) and culminated in the Patriot Act.
The idea somehow that Dubya “got off the reservation” and went rogue is arrant nonsense. It’s akin to folks claiming that if Gore had been President following 9/11 we would have seen a better script than the one Dubya followed. In terms of the Iraq II war, I would agree, but the idea that Gore would have pushed Saudi Arabia into some sort of regime change or handled Musharraf and Pakistan differently is risible.
Several posters on this board have bought into the patently absurd notion that Clinton was somehow this kinder, gentler President that was bookended by ghoulish Republicans. History tells a different tale and one that goes clear back to US involvement in the Banana Wars of the 1920s.
And, given the present state of relations with Vietnam and their movement (albeit somewhat jerkily) towards a free market economy, it is entirely arguable that we did, in fact, “win” the Vietnam War (if you buy into the “America as Empire/Trade Follows The Flag” trope).
ParticipantDan: It’s a distinction without difference in that both Bush and Clinton were following established covert protocols.
To whit: FISA (1978) begat the various programs that moved through NSA Carnivore/Echelon (1994) and culminated in the Patriot Act.
The idea somehow that Dubya “got off the reservation” and went rogue is arrant nonsense. It’s akin to folks claiming that if Gore had been President following 9/11 we would have seen a better script than the one Dubya followed. In terms of the Iraq II war, I would agree, but the idea that Gore would have pushed Saudi Arabia into some sort of regime change or handled Musharraf and Pakistan differently is risible.
Several posters on this board have bought into the patently absurd notion that Clinton was somehow this kinder, gentler President that was bookended by ghoulish Republicans. History tells a different tale and one that goes clear back to US involvement in the Banana Wars of the 1920s.
And, given the present state of relations with Vietnam and their movement (albeit somewhat jerkily) towards a free market economy, it is entirely arguable that we did, in fact, “win” the Vietnam War (if you buy into the “America as Empire/Trade Follows The Flag” trope).
ParticipantDan: It’s a distinction without difference in that both Bush and Clinton were following established covert protocols.
To whit: FISA (1978) begat the various programs that moved through NSA Carnivore/Echelon (1994) and culminated in the Patriot Act.
The idea somehow that Dubya “got off the reservation” and went rogue is arrant nonsense. It’s akin to folks claiming that if Gore had been President following 9/11 we would have seen a better script than the one Dubya followed. In terms of the Iraq II war, I would agree, but the idea that Gore would have pushed Saudi Arabia into some sort of regime change or handled Musharraf and Pakistan differently is risible.
Several posters on this board have bought into the patently absurd notion that Clinton was somehow this kinder, gentler President that was bookended by ghoulish Republicans. History tells a different tale and one that goes clear back to US involvement in the Banana Wars of the 1920s.
And, given the present state of relations with Vietnam and their movement (albeit somewhat jerkily) towards a free market economy, it is entirely arguable that we did, in fact, “win” the Vietnam War (if you buy into the “America as Empire/Trade Follows The Flag” trope).
ParticipantDan: It’s a distinction without difference in that both Bush and Clinton were following established covert protocols.
To whit: FISA (1978) begat the various programs that moved through NSA Carnivore/Echelon (1994) and culminated in the Patriot Act.
The idea somehow that Dubya “got off the reservation” and went rogue is arrant nonsense. It’s akin to folks claiming that if Gore had been President following 9/11 we would have seen a better script than the one Dubya followed. In terms of the Iraq II war, I would agree, but the idea that Gore would have pushed Saudi Arabia into some sort of regime change or handled Musharraf and Pakistan differently is risible.
Several posters on this board have bought into the patently absurd notion that Clinton was somehow this kinder, gentler President that was bookended by ghoulish Republicans. History tells a different tale and one that goes clear back to US involvement in the Banana Wars of the 1920s.
And, given the present state of relations with Vietnam and their movement (albeit somewhat jerkily) towards a free market economy, it is entirely arguable that we did, in fact, “win” the Vietnam War (if you buy into the “America as Empire/Trade Follows The Flag” trope).
ParticipantPk: Agreed. Sad as it is, Davis has become the problem for the Raiders. For me, it started with Marcus Allen (and the horrible job Davis did with Marcus) and culminated with the Gruden debacle. The team has not recovered and I agree that the downward slide will continue.
Afx: I think it’s a California thing (hockey not taking like it does in the Midwest and back east). My dad, mom and uncle were huge hockey fans, as were all my cousins, but I never really “got it”, largely because of the nature of the sport. I’m rabid about football and I have cousins in Wisconsin that are huge Packers fans, but follow NCAA and NHL even more closely and consider hockey waaaaay more important than football. I used to get into arguments over who was tougher, football players or hockey players. It came down, in several instances, to my cousins and I trying to knock each other’s teeth out. I don’t think we ever really settled the argument, either.
ParticipantPk: Agreed. Sad as it is, Davis has become the problem for the Raiders. For me, it started with Marcus Allen (and the horrible job Davis did with Marcus) and culminated with the Gruden debacle. The team has not recovered and I agree that the downward slide will continue.
Afx: I think it’s a California thing (hockey not taking like it does in the Midwest and back east). My dad, mom and uncle were huge hockey fans, as were all my cousins, but I never really “got it”, largely because of the nature of the sport. I’m rabid about football and I have cousins in Wisconsin that are huge Packers fans, but follow NCAA and NHL even more closely and consider hockey waaaaay more important than football. I used to get into arguments over who was tougher, football players or hockey players. It came down, in several instances, to my cousins and I trying to knock each other’s teeth out. I don’t think we ever really settled the argument, either.
ParticipantPk: Agreed. Sad as it is, Davis has become the problem for the Raiders. For me, it started with Marcus Allen (and the horrible job Davis did with Marcus) and culminated with the Gruden debacle. The team has not recovered and I agree that the downward slide will continue.
Afx: I think it’s a California thing (hockey not taking like it does in the Midwest and back east). My dad, mom and uncle were huge hockey fans, as were all my cousins, but I never really “got it”, largely because of the nature of the sport. I’m rabid about football and I have cousins in Wisconsin that are huge Packers fans, but follow NCAA and NHL even more closely and consider hockey waaaaay more important than football. I used to get into arguments over who was tougher, football players or hockey players. It came down, in several instances, to my cousins and I trying to knock each other’s teeth out. I don’t think we ever really settled the argument, either.
ParticipantPk: Agreed. Sad as it is, Davis has become the problem for the Raiders. For me, it started with Marcus Allen (and the horrible job Davis did with Marcus) and culminated with the Gruden debacle. The team has not recovered and I agree that the downward slide will continue.
Afx: I think it’s a California thing (hockey not taking like it does in the Midwest and back east). My dad, mom and uncle were huge hockey fans, as were all my cousins, but I never really “got it”, largely because of the nature of the sport. I’m rabid about football and I have cousins in Wisconsin that are huge Packers fans, but follow NCAA and NHL even more closely and consider hockey waaaaay more important than football. I used to get into arguments over who was tougher, football players or hockey players. It came down, in several instances, to my cousins and I trying to knock each other’s teeth out. I don’t think we ever really settled the argument, either.
ParticipantPk: Agreed. Sad as it is, Davis has become the problem for the Raiders. For me, it started with Marcus Allen (and the horrible job Davis did with Marcus) and culminated with the Gruden debacle. The team has not recovered and I agree that the downward slide will continue.
Afx: I think it’s a California thing (hockey not taking like it does in the Midwest and back east). My dad, mom and uncle were huge hockey fans, as were all my cousins, but I never really “got it”, largely because of the nature of the sport. I’m rabid about football and I have cousins in Wisconsin that are huge Packers fans, but follow NCAA and NHL even more closely and consider hockey waaaaay more important than football. I used to get into arguments over who was tougher, football players or hockey players. It came down, in several instances, to my cousins and I trying to knock each other’s teeth out. I don’t think we ever really settled the argument, either.
Participantbeachlover: I’m not conflating Gitmo/Abu Ghraib with the Lewinsky situation (and, AGAIN, it had nothing to do with Clinton’s keeping his zipper up, it had to do with a sitting President SUBORNING PERJURY.).
I am, however, bringing your attention to Clinton’s policy of extraordinary rendition (he started the policy and used it extensively), whereby individuals that the US suspected (and that word is key) were sent to “black” sites throughout the world, including Egypt, Saudi and Jordan, and questioned without due process, rights or representation.
Clinton’s hands were quite dirty and not only on rendition, but also in his support of covert eavesdropping programs like NSA’s Carnivore and Echelon.
As to Catholic schooling: I was merely bantering on this point and was NOT drawing a comparison or trying to minimize anything. Before you start pontificating about Dubya, get your facts straight. The US has been actively involved in covert ops going back to before WWII. As I said in an earlier post, assemble your facts before trying to blackball Dubya like he represents some aberrant behavior. History tells a vastly different story. Read it.
Participantbeachlover: I’m not conflating Gitmo/Abu Ghraib with the Lewinsky situation (and, AGAIN, it had nothing to do with Clinton’s keeping his zipper up, it had to do with a sitting President SUBORNING PERJURY.).
I am, however, bringing your attention to Clinton’s policy of extraordinary rendition (he started the policy and used it extensively), whereby individuals that the US suspected (and that word is key) were sent to “black” sites throughout the world, including Egypt, Saudi and Jordan, and questioned without due process, rights or representation.
Clinton’s hands were quite dirty and not only on rendition, but also in his support of covert eavesdropping programs like NSA’s Carnivore and Echelon.
As to Catholic schooling: I was merely bantering on this point and was NOT drawing a comparison or trying to minimize anything. Before you start pontificating about Dubya, get your facts straight. The US has been actively involved in covert ops going back to before WWII. As I said in an earlier post, assemble your facts before trying to blackball Dubya like he represents some aberrant behavior. History tells a vastly different story. Read it.
Participantbeachlover: I’m not conflating Gitmo/Abu Ghraib with the Lewinsky situation (and, AGAIN, it had nothing to do with Clinton’s keeping his zipper up, it had to do with a sitting President SUBORNING PERJURY.).
I am, however, bringing your attention to Clinton’s policy of extraordinary rendition (he started the policy and used it extensively), whereby individuals that the US suspected (and that word is key) were sent to “black” sites throughout the world, including Egypt, Saudi and Jordan, and questioned without due process, rights or representation.
Clinton’s hands were quite dirty and not only on rendition, but also in his support of covert eavesdropping programs like NSA’s Carnivore and Echelon.
As to Catholic schooling: I was merely bantering on this point and was NOT drawing a comparison or trying to minimize anything. Before you start pontificating about Dubya, get your facts straight. The US has been actively involved in covert ops going back to before WWII. As I said in an earlier post, assemble your facts before trying to blackball Dubya like he represents some aberrant behavior. History tells a vastly different story. Read it.
Participantbeachlover: I’m not conflating Gitmo/Abu Ghraib with the Lewinsky situation (and, AGAIN, it had nothing to do with Clinton’s keeping his zipper up, it had to do with a sitting President SUBORNING PERJURY.).
I am, however, bringing your attention to Clinton’s policy of extraordinary rendition (he started the policy and used it extensively), whereby individuals that the US suspected (and that word is key) were sent to “black” sites throughout the world, including Egypt, Saudi and Jordan, and questioned without due process, rights or representation.
Clinton’s hands were quite dirty and not only on rendition, but also in his support of covert eavesdropping programs like NSA’s Carnivore and Echelon.
As to Catholic schooling: I was merely bantering on this point and was NOT drawing a comparison or trying to minimize anything. Before you start pontificating about Dubya, get your facts straight. The US has been actively involved in covert ops going back to before WWII. As I said in an earlier post, assemble your facts before trying to blackball Dubya like he represents some aberrant behavior. History tells a vastly different story. Read it.
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