Thoughts on the passage of the health care bill?

[Zeitgeist]

I could care less what Europe thinks. That’s why we had a war of independence.

It is such a well put together piece of legislation here is another problem:

WASHINGTON (AP) — Hours after President Barack Obama signed historic health care legislation, a potential problem emerged. Administration officials are now scrambling to fix a gap in highly touted benefits for children.

Obama made better coverage for children a centerpiece of his health care remake, but it turns out the letter of the law provided a less-than-complete guarantee that kids with health problems would not be shut out of coverage.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Gap-in-health-care-laws-apf-4272209396.html?x=0&.v=1

[Hobie]

Cmon guys, forgetting to cover kids is simply a typo. What do expect for a several thousand page contract.

Btw, is that Gary Coleman in the photo?

[Hobie]

Cmon guys, forgetting to cover kids is simply a typo. What do expect for a several thousand page contract.

Btw, is that Gary Coleman in the photo?

[Hobie]

Cmon guys, forgetting to cover kids is simply a typo. What do expect for a several thousand page contract.

Btw, is that Gary Coleman in the photo?

[Hobie]

Cmon guys, forgetting to cover kids is simply a typo. What do expect for a several thousand page contract.

Btw, is that Gary Coleman in the photo?

[Hobie]

Cmon guys, forgetting to cover kids is simply a typo. What do expect for a several thousand page contract.

Btw, is that Gary Coleman in the photo?

[all]

[quote=ucodegen]

You guys are working with today’s $1.5K, extended through 20 years to get to $600K in 2030 dollars. You need to start by putting away the cost of premium from 1990. There is just no way the combined premiums since 1990 sitting in a vehicle available to general public would lead to $700K in today’s dollars.

You mean adjust for inflation because if I was starting the comparison at 1990, $1500 would be worth more in 1990 than now…

This is why I used S&P500 numbers as well. With the rate adjusted for inflation (approx 2.8% avg), I got about 6.8% ROI from S&P 500, which does give me more than $600k starting at the equivalent 1990 and the equiv $1500 adjusted for inflation. Using backwards CPI adjustment on inflation of 2.8%/yr, I started with $858.26/month adjusting each pay period by inflation and having an ROI of 10.8% not adjusted for inflation: year 20 gave me $808,413.38 with the monthly contrib at year 20 being $1500.[/quote]

No, I was not talking about CPI. Specifically, I had the increase in the cost of health insurance policy in mind. Family premiums doubled between 1996 and 2004. I have no data for 1990-1996 and 2004-2010, but let’s assume the same 9% annual increase. Today, my family plan costs $1,200/month. Back in 1990 the cost was $212/month or $2,544/year.
With the annual 9% increase the total we put aside is $130K.
Cumulative S&P 500 return between 1990 an 2010 is 220%, or 6%/year. Assuming monotonous growth I get $215K in my savings account.

When I look at the last 10 years the numbers are worse.

Unless you are really good with money, and most people are not, or your seed is larger than an average health insurance premium you won’t have the kind of money you are talking about.

[all]

[quote=ucodegen]

You guys are working with today’s $1.5K, extended through 20 years to get to $600K in 2030 dollars. You need to start by putting away the cost of premium from 1990. There is just no way the combined premiums since 1990 sitting in a vehicle available to general public would lead to $700K in today’s dollars.

You mean adjust for inflation because if I was starting the comparison at 1990, $1500 would be worth more in 1990 than now…

This is why I used S&P500 numbers as well. With the rate adjusted for inflation (approx 2.8% avg), I got about 6.8% ROI from S&P 500, which does give me more than $600k starting at the equivalent 1990 and the equiv $1500 adjusted for inflation. Using backwards CPI adjustment on inflation of 2.8%/yr, I started with $858.26/month adjusting each pay period by inflation and having an ROI of 10.8% not adjusted for inflation: year 20 gave me $808,413.38 with the monthly contrib at year 20 being $1500.[/quote]

No, I was not talking about CPI. Specifically, I had the increase in the cost of health insurance policy in mind. Family premiums doubled between 1996 and 2004. I have no data for 1990-1996 and 2004-2010, but let’s assume the same 9% annual increase. Today, my family plan costs $1,200/month. Back in 1990 the cost was $212/month or $2,544/year.
With the annual 9% increase the total we put aside is $130K.
Cumulative S&P 500 return between 1990 an 2010 is 220%, or 6%/year. Assuming monotonous growth I get $215K in my savings account.

When I look at the last 10 years the numbers are worse.

Unless you are really good with money, and most people are not, or your seed is larger than an average health insurance premium you won’t have the kind of money you are talking about.

[all]

[quote=ucodegen]

You guys are working with today’s $1.5K, extended through 20 years to get to $600K in 2030 dollars. You need to start by putting away the cost of premium from 1990. There is just no way the combined premiums since 1990 sitting in a vehicle available to general public would lead to $700K in today’s dollars.

You mean adjust for inflation because if I was starting the comparison at 1990, $1500 would be worth more in 1990 than now…

This is why I used S&P500 numbers as well. With the rate adjusted for inflation (approx 2.8% avg), I got about 6.8% ROI from S&P 500, which does give me more than $600k starting at the equivalent 1990 and the equiv $1500 adjusted for inflation. Using backwards CPI adjustment on inflation of 2.8%/yr, I started with $858.26/month adjusting each pay period by inflation and having an ROI of 10.8% not adjusted for inflation: year 20 gave me $808,413.38 with the monthly contrib at year 20 being $1500.[/quote]

No, I was not talking about CPI. Specifically, I had the increase in the cost of health insurance policy in mind. Family premiums doubled between 1996 and 2004. I have no data for 1990-1996 and 2004-2010, but let’s assume the same 9% annual increase. Today, my family plan costs $1,200/month. Back in 1990 the cost was $212/month or $2,544/year.
With the annual 9% increase the total we put aside is $130K.
Cumulative S&P 500 return between 1990 an 2010 is 220%, or 6%/year. Assuming monotonous growth I get $215K in my savings account.

When I look at the last 10 years the numbers are worse.

Unless you are really good with money, and most people are not, or your seed is larger than an average health insurance premium you won’t have the kind of money you are talking about.

[all]

[quote=ucodegen]

You guys are working with today’s $1.5K, extended through 20 years to get to $600K in 2030 dollars. You need to start by putting away the cost of premium from 1990. There is just no way the combined premiums since 1990 sitting in a vehicle available to general public would lead to $700K in today’s dollars.

You mean adjust for inflation because if I was starting the comparison at 1990, $1500 would be worth more in 1990 than now…

This is why I used S&P500 numbers as well. With the rate adjusted for inflation (approx 2.8% avg), I got about 6.8% ROI from S&P 500, which does give me more than $600k starting at the equivalent 1990 and the equiv $1500 adjusted for inflation. Using backwards CPI adjustment on inflation of 2.8%/yr, I started with $858.26/month adjusting each pay period by inflation and having an ROI of 10.8% not adjusted for inflation: year 20 gave me $808,413.38 with the monthly contrib at year 20 being $1500.[/quote]

No, I was not talking about CPI. Specifically, I had the increase in the cost of health insurance policy in mind. Family premiums doubled between 1996 and 2004. I have no data for 1990-1996 and 2004-2010, but let’s assume the same 9% annual increase. Today, my family plan costs $1,200/month. Back in 1990 the cost was $212/month or $2,544/year.
With the annual 9% increase the total we put aside is $130K.
Cumulative S&P 500 return between 1990 an 2010 is 220%, or 6%/year. Assuming monotonous growth I get $215K in my savings account.

When I look at the last 10 years the numbers are worse.

Unless you are really good with money, and most people are not, or your seed is larger than an average health insurance premium you won’t have the kind of money you are talking about.

[all]

[quote=ucodegen]

You guys are working with today’s $1.5K, extended through 20 years to get to $600K in 2030 dollars. You need to start by putting away the cost of premium from 1990. There is just no way the combined premiums since 1990 sitting in a vehicle available to general public would lead to $700K in today’s dollars.

You mean adjust for inflation because if I was starting the comparison at 1990, $1500 would be worth more in 1990 than now…

This is why I used S&P500 numbers as well. With the rate adjusted for inflation (approx 2.8% avg), I got about 6.8% ROI from S&P 500, which does give me more than $600k starting at the equivalent 1990 and the equiv $1500 adjusted for inflation. Using backwards CPI adjustment on inflation of 2.8%/yr, I started with $858.26/month adjusting each pay period by inflation and having an ROI of 10.8% not adjusted for inflation: year 20 gave me $808,413.38 with the monthly contrib at year 20 being $1500.[/quote]

No, I was not talking about CPI. Specifically, I had the increase in the cost of health insurance policy in mind. Family premiums doubled between 1996 and 2004. I have no data for 1990-1996 and 2004-2010, but let’s assume the same 9% annual increase. Today, my family plan costs $1,200/month. Back in 1990 the cost was $212/month or $2,544/year.
With the annual 9% increase the total we put aside is $130K.
Cumulative S&P 500 return between 1990 an 2010 is 220%, or 6%/year. Assuming monotonous growth I get $215K in my savings account.

When I look at the last 10 years the numbers are worse.

Unless you are really good with money, and most people are not, or your seed is larger than an average health insurance premium you won’t have the kind of money you are talking about.

[ucodegen]

I have no data for 1990-1996 and 2004-2010, but let’s assume the same 9% annual increase.

I think this is a shaky way to extrapolate. Also, why don’t you have data for 2004-2010 since you are using your own insurance for an example?

I know that premiums on health insurance have increased faster than CPI, but has the actual cost of health care for cash payers? I’m starting to see greater and greater gaps from my experience. When I got very ill, I was expecting that the costs would put a very serious dent in the money I set aside, but I found that I could quickly negotiate cash discounts and the damage to the savings was not that great. My personal experience with dental experience also agrees with this. I found that only if I maxed out my dental ‘work’/charges, would insurance be less expensive than pay-as-you-go. I also found that I would have nearly hit the cap (I have a lot of crowns).

Americans also tend to be ‘over medicated’. Start with one drug to counter something simple and follow with a lot more to counter the side effects of the first drug and each following drug. This may have some bearing on the costs we are seeing.

I don’t see the justification for the increases in the premiums, and making insurance mandatory will not decrease the premiums. By making insurance mandatory, you have created a limited monopoly that favors insurance companies. Insurance companies were starting to hit a limit with any increases in profits. As the premium rates started to rise, people were dropping off insurance. Solution, in the insurance company eyes, is to make insurance mandatory. By the way, in the period you referenced, the profits of insurance companies increased 2.5 times from 2000 to 2009.

[ucodegen]

I have no data for 1990-1996 and 2004-2010, but let’s assume the same 9% annual increase.

I think this is a shaky way to extrapolate. Also, why don’t you have data for 2004-2010 since you are using your own insurance for an example?

I know that premiums on health insurance have increased faster than CPI, but has the actual cost of health care for cash payers? I’m starting to see greater and greater gaps from my experience. When I got very ill, I was expecting that the costs would put a very serious dent in the money I set aside, but I found that I could quickly negotiate cash discounts and the damage to the savings was not that great. My personal experience with dental experience also agrees with this. I found that only if I maxed out my dental ‘work’/charges, would insurance be less expensive than pay-as-you-go. I also found that I would have nearly hit the cap (I have a lot of crowns).

Americans also tend to be ‘over medicated’. Start with one drug to counter something simple and follow with a lot more to counter the side effects of the first drug and each following drug. This may have some bearing on the costs we are seeing.

I don’t see the justification for the increases in the premiums, and making insurance mandatory will not decrease the premiums. By making insurance mandatory, you have created a limited monopoly that favors insurance companies. Insurance companies were starting to hit a limit with any increases in profits. As the premium rates started to rise, people were dropping off insurance. Solution, in the insurance company eyes, is to make insurance mandatory. By the way, in the period you referenced, the profits of insurance companies increased 2.5 times from 2000 to 2009.

[ucodegen]

I have no data for 1990-1996 and 2004-2010, but let’s assume the same 9% annual increase.

I think this is a shaky way to extrapolate. Also, why don’t you have data for 2004-2010 since you are using your own insurance for an example?

I know that premiums on health insurance have increased faster than CPI, but has the actual cost of health care for cash payers? I’m starting to see greater and greater gaps from my experience. When I got very ill, I was expecting that the costs would put a very serious dent in the money I set aside, but I found that I could quickly negotiate cash discounts and the damage to the savings was not that great. My personal experience with dental experience also agrees with this. I found that only if I maxed out my dental ‘work’/charges, would insurance be less expensive than pay-as-you-go. I also found that I would have nearly hit the cap (I have a lot of crowns).

Americans also tend to be ‘over medicated’. Start with one drug to counter something simple and follow with a lot more to counter the side effects of the first drug and each following drug. This may have some bearing on the costs we are seeing.

I don’t see the justification for the increases in the premiums, and making insurance mandatory will not decrease the premiums. By making insurance mandatory, you have created a limited monopoly that favors insurance companies. Insurance companies were starting to hit a limit with any increases in profits. As the premium rates started to rise, people were dropping off insurance. Solution, in the insurance company eyes, is to make insurance mandatory. By the way, in the period you referenced, the profits of insurance companies increased 2.5 times from 2000 to 2009.

[ucodegen]

I have no data for 1990-1996 and 2004-2010, but let’s assume the same 9% annual increase.

I think this is a shaky way to extrapolate. Also, why don’t you have data for 2004-2010 since you are using your own insurance for an example?

I know that premiums on health insurance have increased faster than CPI, but has the actual cost of health care for cash payers? I’m starting to see greater and greater gaps from my experience. When I got very ill, I was expecting that the costs would put a very serious dent in the money I set aside, but I found that I could quickly negotiate cash discounts and the damage to the savings was not that great. My personal experience with dental experience also agrees with this. I found that only if I maxed out my dental ‘work’/charges, would insurance be less expensive than pay-as-you-go. I also found that I would have nearly hit the cap (I have a lot of crowns).

Americans also tend to be ‘over medicated’. Start with one drug to counter something simple and follow with a lot more to counter the side effects of the first drug and each following drug. This may have some bearing on the costs we are seeing.

I don’t see the justification for the increases in the premiums, and making insurance mandatory will not decrease the premiums. By making insurance mandatory, you have created a limited monopoly that favors insurance companies. Insurance companies were starting to hit a limit with any increases in profits. As the premium rates started to rise, people were dropping off insurance. Solution, in the insurance company eyes, is to make insurance mandatory. By the way, in the period you referenced, the profits of insurance companies increased 2.5 times from 2000 to 2009.

[Author]

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