Talked to Thornberg

[PerryChase]

Good discussion, you’all.

rustico, do you write well. I too like your writing style.

lostkitty, although I was raise Catholic, I’m like you, not religious at all. To me God is nature/the universe. And one certainly doesn’t need a religious God to be blessed.

4runner, great points about religion and economics.

cyphire, I too am pissed at Bush. He’s taking this country down hill. When I have kids (most likely adopt from Africa), I’ll have to take them overseas for the summer so they aren’t brainwashed by their classmates.

[NotCranky]

Perry,
Like you,I have traveled extensively. The middle and lower classes(not peasants),everywhere I have been, make ours look like dolts, for the most part, even in Mexico, Africa, and the Phillipines. I am sure you have observed the same. I have to admit, my travels, sometimes undertaken with large numbers of Americans, have inspired me not to be the best dipshit I can be.
I have wondered,Perry, have you ever read Gabriel Garcia Marquez? I bet you would like his books.

[NotCranky]

Perry,
Like you,I have traveled extensively. The middle and lower classes(not peasants),everywhere I have been, make ours look like dolts, for the most part, even in Mexico, Africa, and the Phillipines. I am sure you have observed the same. I have to admit, my travels, sometimes undertaken with large numbers of Americans, have inspired me not to be the best dipshit I can be.
I have wondered,Perry, have you ever read Gabriel Garcia Marquez? I bet you would like his books.

[blahblahblah]

The middle and lower classes(not peasants),everywhere I have been, make ours look like dolts, for the most part, even in Mexico, Africa, and the Phillipines.

Huh? I have lots of stories of dumb people from my travels around the world. In Latin America and Europe people always like to tell me about how terrible America is and how awful Americans are, and then when I ask them if they’ve ever visited America they respond with either “No, I don’t need to go to know it’s horrible” or “I went once for two weeks fifteen years ago and hated it”. I met lots of people in South America that thought California was its own country and that the US president was still named Clinton. A friend of mine lived in Japan for a long time and couldn’t ever get his friends there to understand that Ireland wasn’t part of the US. Of course there are smart people all over the world too but you can’t paint with such a broad brush.

Definitely don’t travel with a large group of Americans (or Europeans for that matter!) Get away from the tourist busses as fast as possible. If you think Americans are bad, watch the busful of Frenchmen try to talk to Mexicans in French. It happens all the time, they’re just as bad as we are. Germans are better, they typically make an effort. So do the Swedes. The only good thing I’ll say about organized tours is that the locals who guide them are usually super-smart and knowledgeable about all kinds of things. I have come away from some of those thinking that the locals are all geniuses and then I talk to the guy selling hot dogs on the street and he can’t even read or write. When you strike out on your own and jump in the front seat of a cab with a guy in Guatemala that never finished the 3rd grade — now you’re gonna experience the real flavor of the place! And have a hell of a lot of fun, too. Don’t be so down on dumb people, even dumb Americans. Their cluelessness makes life more fun (and some of us wealthy!)

[blahblahblah]

The middle and lower classes(not peasants),everywhere I have been, make ours look like dolts, for the most part, even in Mexico, Africa, and the Phillipines.

Huh? I have lots of stories of dumb people from my travels around the world. In Latin America and Europe people always like to tell me about how terrible America is and how awful Americans are, and then when I ask them if they’ve ever visited America they respond with either “No, I don’t need to go to know it’s horrible” or “I went once for two weeks fifteen years ago and hated it”. I met lots of people in South America that thought California was its own country and that the US president was still named Clinton. A friend of mine lived in Japan for a long time and couldn’t ever get his friends there to understand that Ireland wasn’t part of the US. Of course there are smart people all over the world too but you can’t paint with such a broad brush.

Definitely don’t travel with a large group of Americans (or Europeans for that matter!) Get away from the tourist busses as fast as possible. If you think Americans are bad, watch the busful of Frenchmen try to talk to Mexicans in French. It happens all the time, they’re just as bad as we are. Germans are better, they typically make an effort. So do the Swedes. The only good thing I’ll say about organized tours is that the locals who guide them are usually super-smart and knowledgeable about all kinds of things. I have come away from some of those thinking that the locals are all geniuses and then I talk to the guy selling hot dogs on the street and he can’t even read or write. When you strike out on your own and jump in the front seat of a cab with a guy in Guatemala that never finished the 3rd grade — now you’re gonna experience the real flavor of the place! And have a hell of a lot of fun, too. Don’t be so down on dumb people, even dumb Americans. Their cluelessness makes life more fun (and some of us wealthy!)

[NotCranky]

Hey Concho, I new someone would jump on that one. LOL.
I have been off the beaten path and further off than you could ever imagine. I dislike Cancun and places like it after a few hours. Don’t laugh but the Americans I traveled with were sailors. Other than that when I have been to foriegn countries I try to make contacts in advance and tour with locals, many times I have lived with relatives of friends here, until I hooked up with some kind woman usually, well, in a few instances.LOL.(That was before I got married JG). I had an architect in urban planning take me out in Buenos Aires for two weeks. Anyway I concede. There are Schmucks everywhere and we can all indulge in a little schmuckery sometimes.
Best wishes

[NotCranky]

Hey Concho, I new someone would jump on that one. LOL.
I have been off the beaten path and further off than you could ever imagine. I dislike Cancun and places like it after a few hours. Don’t laugh but the Americans I traveled with were sailors. Other than that when I have been to foriegn countries I try to make contacts in advance and tour with locals, many times I have lived with relatives of friends here, until I hooked up with some kind woman usually, well, in a few instances.LOL.(That was before I got married JG). I had an architect in urban planning take me out in Buenos Aires for two weeks. Anyway I concede. There are Schmucks everywhere and we can all indulge in a little schmuckery sometimes.
Best wishes

[Anonymous]

4r-, I, like you, have done my own search for the genesis of how we live today. Two books that I particularly enjoyed were “Our Kind” by Marvin Harris (biological basis for human actions and characteristics) and “The Source” by James Michener (historical novel on the origin of religion).

I also read up on America’s various utopian colonies, such as Oneida and Amana, and even spent a nice weekend at New Harmony in Indiana.

My conclusion was that the way that we do things today — monogamy, religion, nuclear family — is the tried and true method, while the antithesis — free love and communal raising of children (aka, the public school ideal) — has consistently failed.

Someone please show me otherwise. Plato’s “Republic” was a fiction.

[Anonymous]

4r-, I, like you, have done my own search for the genesis of how we live today. Two books that I particularly enjoyed were “Our Kind” by Marvin Harris (biological basis for human actions and characteristics) and “The Source” by James Michener (historical novel on the origin of religion).

I also read up on America’s various utopian colonies, such as Oneida and Amana, and even spent a nice weekend at New Harmony in Indiana.

My conclusion was that the way that we do things today — monogamy, religion, nuclear family — is the tried and true method, while the antithesis — free love and communal raising of children (aka, the public school ideal) — has consistently failed.

Someone please show me otherwise. Plato’s “Republic” was a fiction.

[cyphire]

Bravo PerryChase… We were going to move from La Jolla because of the brainwashing – but it’s hard to throw the baby out with the bathwater. It is comfortable living here… Like Rustico and yourself – I feel that Bush has a lot to answer for, and I also vomit inside when Bush invokes God. The tough thing is that when you have people who follow dogma blindly, it makes for a difficult conversation. As they have no evidence and conflicting logic, there isn’t really a conversation to be had. I hate bringing up the Harry Potter thing again, but it’s no weirder then the spin the Mormons put on religion, or the Branch Davidians, or all the other religions if you go back far enough. Whats the difference between religion and cults? Just more people! That doesn’t prove it right (and which of the larger cults are the correct ones? – Each of them state that the others are going to Hell… so….. Grrrrr…. Can’t they just shut up already and keep their dreams to themselves????

I also find your points interesting 4Runner and you have a great arguing style, but as your wishes interfere with your assumptions – again it’s hard to get around the fact that you are pushing for an agenda, the facts just seem to get in the way.

Religion is NOT an inseparable part of every successful culture. It is a vestigial part of our society and brave honest men should try to remove it and replace it with something else. Religion reminds me of a military dictatorship which has to hold on – because if they don’t they will be tried by the people who have been injured by it. Look at our current culture in the US. What part of the country is religious? Is La Jolla still intact because of religion? There are so many sects and so many non-believers that I beg to differ.

It’s funny. JG and you seem to have the idea that it is religion holding people back from not killing each other. Are monkeys religious? Do they murder each other? My moral code is based on society and what society expects of me and my children. People live in a society and follow it’s rules to create stability and comfort – not because of a God, but because it’s how we interrelate to each other.

Now the spoiler is thrown in… Religion… To me religion is like waving the confederate flag and being proud of it’s excesses. You can’t imagine my joy at seeing the San Diego Diocese being bankrupt from the sexual predator lawsuits. It’s only the start. Bravo! Take down the organizations which abuse power and hurt their fellow man. Corrupt institutions which preach hatred (do either you or jg feel that Homosexuals have the right to exist, enjoy each other, and be part of society? Do you feel that they are sick? Against God’s commandments? – just wondering – lets see how far your intolerance extends) Instead of extolling the virtues of religion – why not take responsibility for it’s terrible toll on the human race?

[cyphire]

Bravo PerryChase… We were going to move from La Jolla because of the brainwashing – but it’s hard to throw the baby out with the bathwater. It is comfortable living here… Like Rustico and yourself – I feel that Bush has a lot to answer for, and I also vomit inside when Bush invokes God. The tough thing is that when you have people who follow dogma blindly, it makes for a difficult conversation. As they have no evidence and conflicting logic, there isn’t really a conversation to be had. I hate bringing up the Harry Potter thing again, but it’s no weirder then the spin the Mormons put on religion, or the Branch Davidians, or all the other religions if you go back far enough. Whats the difference between religion and cults? Just more people! That doesn’t prove it right (and which of the larger cults are the correct ones? – Each of them state that the others are going to Hell… so….. Grrrrr…. Can’t they just shut up already and keep their dreams to themselves????

I also find your points interesting 4Runner and you have a great arguing style, but as your wishes interfere with your assumptions – again it’s hard to get around the fact that you are pushing for an agenda, the facts just seem to get in the way.

Religion is NOT an inseparable part of every successful culture. It is a vestigial part of our society and brave honest men should try to remove it and replace it with something else. Religion reminds me of a military dictatorship which has to hold on – because if they don’t they will be tried by the people who have been injured by it. Look at our current culture in the US. What part of the country is religious? Is La Jolla still intact because of religion? There are so many sects and so many non-believers that I beg to differ.

It’s funny. JG and you seem to have the idea that it is religion holding people back from not killing each other. Are monkeys religious? Do they murder each other? My moral code is based on society and what society expects of me and my children. People live in a society and follow it’s rules to create stability and comfort – not because of a God, but because it’s how we interrelate to each other.

Now the spoiler is thrown in… Religion… To me religion is like waving the confederate flag and being proud of it’s excesses. You can’t imagine my joy at seeing the San Diego Diocese being bankrupt from the sexual predator lawsuits. It’s only the start. Bravo! Take down the organizations which abuse power and hurt their fellow man. Corrupt institutions which preach hatred (do either you or jg feel that Homosexuals have the right to exist, enjoy each other, and be part of society? Do you feel that they are sick? Against God’s commandments? – just wondering – lets see how far your intolerance extends) Instead of extolling the virtues of religion – why not take responsibility for it’s terrible toll on the human race?

[NotCranky]

Hey Cy ,
I think this one is going to fizzle out for me. Look religion is too entrenched in our society and our debating counter parts have dug their heels in as well.At least they don’t deny that dinosaurs existed anymore and they can tolerate the word evolution. Maybe in 25 more years they will admit we are primates at least animals. We will be long dead before any real progress is made on this. I don’t think I want to push JG into a discussion about homosexuality.He will probably bash for a page or two of posts and then say his best friend is homosexual,can and does practice christianity just fine but will never get to heaven. Hopefully this whole religious thing backfires on them some day. Not so that they get hurt but so that the insanity unwinds a little bit. This conversation has made me want to do a new survey on Christians, who are they and what do they believe, I think I have made too many assumptions based on mostly having had these conversation with blue collar Christians who mainly seemed to be that way by default or “born again” types. Just a nice ace in the hole to be Christian, something to fall back on after years of careless, ignorant living. I have met some good living “progressive” christians who were still kind of establishement types. My wife’s childhood friend is one . She is a professor of theology.I am looking forward to meeting her soon for the first time.Having had my chat with ST.Thomas Aquinas ( progressive catholic in his day)here on the blog(JG in modern times), has opened my eyes a bit.I also want to study the seperation of church and state history further. I don’t accept JG’s answer that it is practically an accident that it was ever mentioned.I think it had something to do with ridding the new world of the Anglican church’s power. I also think many of the founding fathers were Deists. I don’t really have much hope we can change anything on a large scale CY. Like I said in a much earlier post, people above 30 don’t change much and those people are brain washing the children.I ahve already told my kids they can choose to believe what they want( They will likely be great philosophers like their dad). I think it is a good idea not to be a strong Atheist or promote it. It causes too big of a knee jerk reaction in many Christians. I am not an atheist,deist or agnostic anyway. My take on it is that it is not my problem to define myself in terms of a response to the possiblity of the supernatural, especially to people who have decided that they know that some passed down mythology is closer to the truth than saying I don’t know is. My problem is to live that is all. I think the human race has less to fear and more hope of peace without the quazi- government branch called religion. I just can’t imagine JG or pretty much anyone in his shoes going home and saying. “Hey family, I have had a different kind of enlightenment and we are not going to be Catholics anymore.” Or “I am going to help Russ and CY with their goal of seperating church and state because the whole thing is blasphemous to my wonderful “GOD” who is personal to me and some of my friends but not for every body.” He knows the value of being religious and the government and his many of his peers being affected by it. Changing ones religious views does happen of course in young people, but it is pretty rare later, unless some other trigger is involved like Alcoholism recovery, a mistress,a divorice ,a mid life crisis, coming out of the closet or something like that.
Anyway he has been a pretty good sport as always.
Best wishes

[NotCranky]

Hey Cy ,
I think this one is going to fizzle out for me. Look religion is too entrenched in our society and our debating counter parts have dug their heels in as well.At least they don’t deny that dinosaurs existed anymore and they can tolerate the word evolution. Maybe in 25 more years they will admit we are primates at least animals. We will be long dead before any real progress is made on this. I don’t think I want to push JG into a discussion about homosexuality.He will probably bash for a page or two of posts and then say his best friend is homosexual,can and does practice christianity just fine but will never get to heaven. Hopefully this whole religious thing backfires on them some day. Not so that they get hurt but so that the insanity unwinds a little bit. This conversation has made me want to do a new survey on Christians, who are they and what do they believe, I think I have made too many assumptions based on mostly having had these conversation with blue collar Christians who mainly seemed to be that way by default or “born again” types. Just a nice ace in the hole to be Christian, something to fall back on after years of careless, ignorant living. I have met some good living “progressive” christians who were still kind of establishement types. My wife’s childhood friend is one . She is a professor of theology.I am looking forward to meeting her soon for the first time.Having had my chat with ST.Thomas Aquinas ( progressive catholic in his day)here on the blog(JG in modern times), has opened my eyes a bit.I also want to study the seperation of church and state history further. I don’t accept JG’s answer that it is practically an accident that it was ever mentioned.I think it had something to do with ridding the new world of the Anglican church’s power. I also think many of the founding fathers were Deists. I don’t really have much hope we can change anything on a large scale CY. Like I said in a much earlier post, people above 30 don’t change much and those people are brain washing the children.I ahve already told my kids they can choose to believe what they want( They will likely be great philosophers like their dad). I think it is a good idea not to be a strong Atheist or promote it. It causes too big of a knee jerk reaction in many Christians. I am not an atheist,deist or agnostic anyway. My take on it is that it is not my problem to define myself in terms of a response to the possiblity of the supernatural, especially to people who have decided that they know that some passed down mythology is closer to the truth than saying I don’t know is. My problem is to live that is all. I think the human race has less to fear and more hope of peace without the quazi- government branch called religion. I just can’t imagine JG or pretty much anyone in his shoes going home and saying. “Hey family, I have had a different kind of enlightenment and we are not going to be Catholics anymore.” Or “I am going to help Russ and CY with their goal of seperating church and state because the whole thing is blasphemous to my wonderful “GOD” who is personal to me and some of my friends but not for every body.” He knows the value of being religious and the government and his many of his peers being affected by it. Changing ones religious views does happen of course in young people, but it is pretty rare later, unless some other trigger is involved like Alcoholism recovery, a mistress,a divorice ,a mid life crisis, coming out of the closet or something like that.
Anyway he has been a pretty good sport as always.
Best wishes

[PerryChase]

yes, jg is always a good sport. He reminds me of my Catholic school headmaster, except my headmaster didn’t listen to heavy-metal.

I do agree with jg in several areas — tough love, hard work, good education.

[PerryChase]

yes, jg is always a good sport. He reminds me of my Catholic school headmaster, except my headmaster didn’t listen to heavy-metal.

I do agree with jg in several areas — tough love, hard work, good education.

[Author]

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