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February 6, 2011 at 1:29 PM #664448February 7, 2011 at 3:51 AM #663351
CA renter
ParticipantNo, not “entry level.” The positions are ALWAYS clearly listed on the salary tables. There are entry-level positions, mid-level positions, and high-level positions, and they are all listed there in their separate rows and columns. The salary tables are totally transparent, so I’m not sure what you are talking about. Perhaps you didn’t realize there are different positions in fire departments, and it’s good to ask so one can find more information about it, rather than say that there are “lies” on the salary tables. There aren’t any lies there, but you might not have known about the different positions. Just because you don’t know about something doesn’t mean that anyone is trying to fool you or hide anything from you. EVERYTHING is there on the salary tables.
Firefighters do NOT get extra pay for the things you’ve listed: EMT, heavy duty operator (class B driver’s license???), etc. which are required for the job. They DO get paid extra for being paramedics (see below), or for being Fire Engineers (a totally different position from that of Firefighter I/II).
The pay scales DO reflect the different jobs and pay enhancements. Firefighters get paid extra for paramedic certification (not EMT) because some firefighters are not paramedics, as they were hired before the paramedic requirements were enacted. Other departments might allow recruits to get their paramedic certification while on the job, etc., and they are paid at the basic level you see on the pay scales (no enhancement for paramedic certification). Some departments pay a VERY small stipend for having a college degree, but that is NOT required for the job.
All of this is listed **clearly** on the salary tables, from entry-level up to chief.
When you see those examples of “excessive” pay in the newspapers, they are usually listing the pay of the HIGHEST paid person for that year. There are some years — like when there are a lot of wildfires — when a firefighter can earn a LOT of money. The next year, the highest pay may not even come close to the highest pay of the previous year.
The difference between the “published” pay and the W-2 pay is **overtime** (not stipends, etc.). The people who earn that kind money (published for its “shock value”) often work for days, weeks, or months straight. It is not unusual for those employees to work 6-7 days/week. Mind you, unlike people with “regular” jobs, they do not go home at night. The ones with the REALLY high pay you see in the newspapers are often gone for weeks (sometimes months) at a time, all the time, 24/7. I’m sure most reasonably competent people could make the same money if they worked the same hours.
I have a problem with newspapers publishing pay levels without explaining why the pay is so high. It would be much better and more informative if they also published the number of hours worked for the year.
February 7, 2011 at 3:51 AM #663412ParticipantNo, not “entry level.” The positions are ALWAYS clearly listed on the salary tables. There are entry-level positions, mid-level positions, and high-level positions, and they are all listed there in their separate rows and columns. The salary tables are totally transparent, so I’m not sure what you are talking about. Perhaps you didn’t realize there are different positions in fire departments, and it’s good to ask so one can find more information about it, rather than say that there are “lies” on the salary tables. There aren’t any lies there, but you might not have known about the different positions. Just because you don’t know about something doesn’t mean that anyone is trying to fool you or hide anything from you. EVERYTHING is there on the salary tables.
Firefighters do NOT get extra pay for the things you’ve listed: EMT, heavy duty operator (class B driver’s license???), etc. which are required for the job. They DO get paid extra for being paramedics (see below), or for being Fire Engineers (a totally different position from that of Firefighter I/II).
The pay scales DO reflect the different jobs and pay enhancements. Firefighters get paid extra for paramedic certification (not EMT) because some firefighters are not paramedics, as they were hired before the paramedic requirements were enacted. Other departments might allow recruits to get their paramedic certification while on the job, etc., and they are paid at the basic level you see on the pay scales (no enhancement for paramedic certification). Some departments pay a VERY small stipend for having a college degree, but that is NOT required for the job.
All of this is listed **clearly** on the salary tables, from entry-level up to chief.
When you see those examples of “excessive” pay in the newspapers, they are usually listing the pay of the HIGHEST paid person for that year. There are some years — like when there are a lot of wildfires — when a firefighter can earn a LOT of money. The next year, the highest pay may not even come close to the highest pay of the previous year.
The difference between the “published” pay and the W-2 pay is **overtime** (not stipends, etc.). The people who earn that kind money (published for its “shock value”) often work for days, weeks, or months straight. It is not unusual for those employees to work 6-7 days/week. Mind you, unlike people with “regular” jobs, they do not go home at night. The ones with the REALLY high pay you see in the newspapers are often gone for weeks (sometimes months) at a time, all the time, 24/7. I’m sure most reasonably competent people could make the same money if they worked the same hours.
I have a problem with newspapers publishing pay levels without explaining why the pay is so high. It would be much better and more informative if they also published the number of hours worked for the year.
February 7, 2011 at 3:51 AM #664018ParticipantNo, not “entry level.” The positions are ALWAYS clearly listed on the salary tables. There are entry-level positions, mid-level positions, and high-level positions, and they are all listed there in their separate rows and columns. The salary tables are totally transparent, so I’m not sure what you are talking about. Perhaps you didn’t realize there are different positions in fire departments, and it’s good to ask so one can find more information about it, rather than say that there are “lies” on the salary tables. There aren’t any lies there, but you might not have known about the different positions. Just because you don’t know about something doesn’t mean that anyone is trying to fool you or hide anything from you. EVERYTHING is there on the salary tables.
Firefighters do NOT get extra pay for the things you’ve listed: EMT, heavy duty operator (class B driver’s license???), etc. which are required for the job. They DO get paid extra for being paramedics (see below), or for being Fire Engineers (a totally different position from that of Firefighter I/II).
The pay scales DO reflect the different jobs and pay enhancements. Firefighters get paid extra for paramedic certification (not EMT) because some firefighters are not paramedics, as they were hired before the paramedic requirements were enacted. Other departments might allow recruits to get their paramedic certification while on the job, etc., and they are paid at the basic level you see on the pay scales (no enhancement for paramedic certification). Some departments pay a VERY small stipend for having a college degree, but that is NOT required for the job.
All of this is listed **clearly** on the salary tables, from entry-level up to chief.
When you see those examples of “excessive” pay in the newspapers, they are usually listing the pay of the HIGHEST paid person for that year. There are some years — like when there are a lot of wildfires — when a firefighter can earn a LOT of money. The next year, the highest pay may not even come close to the highest pay of the previous year.
The difference between the “published” pay and the W-2 pay is **overtime** (not stipends, etc.). The people who earn that kind money (published for its “shock value”) often work for days, weeks, or months straight. It is not unusual for those employees to work 6-7 days/week. Mind you, unlike people with “regular” jobs, they do not go home at night. The ones with the REALLY high pay you see in the newspapers are often gone for weeks (sometimes months) at a time, all the time, 24/7. I’m sure most reasonably competent people could make the same money if they worked the same hours.
I have a problem with newspapers publishing pay levels without explaining why the pay is so high. It would be much better and more informative if they also published the number of hours worked for the year.
February 7, 2011 at 3:51 AM #664155ParticipantNo, not “entry level.” The positions are ALWAYS clearly listed on the salary tables. There are entry-level positions, mid-level positions, and high-level positions, and they are all listed there in their separate rows and columns. The salary tables are totally transparent, so I’m not sure what you are talking about. Perhaps you didn’t realize there are different positions in fire departments, and it’s good to ask so one can find more information about it, rather than say that there are “lies” on the salary tables. There aren’t any lies there, but you might not have known about the different positions. Just because you don’t know about something doesn’t mean that anyone is trying to fool you or hide anything from you. EVERYTHING is there on the salary tables.
Firefighters do NOT get extra pay for the things you’ve listed: EMT, heavy duty operator (class B driver’s license???), etc. which are required for the job. They DO get paid extra for being paramedics (see below), or for being Fire Engineers (a totally different position from that of Firefighter I/II).
The pay scales DO reflect the different jobs and pay enhancements. Firefighters get paid extra for paramedic certification (not EMT) because some firefighters are not paramedics, as they were hired before the paramedic requirements were enacted. Other departments might allow recruits to get their paramedic certification while on the job, etc., and they are paid at the basic level you see on the pay scales (no enhancement for paramedic certification). Some departments pay a VERY small stipend for having a college degree, but that is NOT required for the job.
All of this is listed **clearly** on the salary tables, from entry-level up to chief.
When you see those examples of “excessive” pay in the newspapers, they are usually listing the pay of the HIGHEST paid person for that year. There are some years — like when there are a lot of wildfires — when a firefighter can earn a LOT of money. The next year, the highest pay may not even come close to the highest pay of the previous year.
The difference between the “published” pay and the W-2 pay is **overtime** (not stipends, etc.). The people who earn that kind money (published for its “shock value”) often work for days, weeks, or months straight. It is not unusual for those employees to work 6-7 days/week. Mind you, unlike people with “regular” jobs, they do not go home at night. The ones with the REALLY high pay you see in the newspapers are often gone for weeks (sometimes months) at a time, all the time, 24/7. I’m sure most reasonably competent people could make the same money if they worked the same hours.
I have a problem with newspapers publishing pay levels without explaining why the pay is so high. It would be much better and more informative if they also published the number of hours worked for the year.
February 7, 2011 at 3:51 AM #664493ParticipantNo, not “entry level.” The positions are ALWAYS clearly listed on the salary tables. There are entry-level positions, mid-level positions, and high-level positions, and they are all listed there in their separate rows and columns. The salary tables are totally transparent, so I’m not sure what you are talking about. Perhaps you didn’t realize there are different positions in fire departments, and it’s good to ask so one can find more information about it, rather than say that there are “lies” on the salary tables. There aren’t any lies there, but you might not have known about the different positions. Just because you don’t know about something doesn’t mean that anyone is trying to fool you or hide anything from you. EVERYTHING is there on the salary tables.
Firefighters do NOT get extra pay for the things you’ve listed: EMT, heavy duty operator (class B driver’s license???), etc. which are required for the job. They DO get paid extra for being paramedics (see below), or for being Fire Engineers (a totally different position from that of Firefighter I/II).
The pay scales DO reflect the different jobs and pay enhancements. Firefighters get paid extra for paramedic certification (not EMT) because some firefighters are not paramedics, as they were hired before the paramedic requirements were enacted. Other departments might allow recruits to get their paramedic certification while on the job, etc., and they are paid at the basic level you see on the pay scales (no enhancement for paramedic certification). Some departments pay a VERY small stipend for having a college degree, but that is NOT required for the job.
All of this is listed **clearly** on the salary tables, from entry-level up to chief.
When you see those examples of “excessive” pay in the newspapers, they are usually listing the pay of the HIGHEST paid person for that year. There are some years — like when there are a lot of wildfires — when a firefighter can earn a LOT of money. The next year, the highest pay may not even come close to the highest pay of the previous year.
The difference between the “published” pay and the W-2 pay is **overtime** (not stipends, etc.). The people who earn that kind money (published for its “shock value”) often work for days, weeks, or months straight. It is not unusual for those employees to work 6-7 days/week. Mind you, unlike people with “regular” jobs, they do not go home at night. The ones with the REALLY high pay you see in the newspapers are often gone for weeks (sometimes months) at a time, all the time, 24/7. I’m sure most reasonably competent people could make the same money if they worked the same hours.
I have a problem with newspapers publishing pay levels without explaining why the pay is so high. It would be much better and more informative if they also published the number of hours worked for the year.
February 7, 2011 at 3:53 AM #663356ParticipantOne more…teachers do NOT get 15% extra for a teaching credential. Apparently (and this began after I left, so don’t know all the details for LAUSD), they get an extra 15% for National Board Certification. Here is more info about it:
What Is National Board Certification?
National Board Certification is an advanced teaching credential. It complements, but does not replace, a state’s teacher license. It is valid for 10 years, and renewal candidates must begin the renewal process during their eighth or ninth years as NBCTs.National Board Certification is achieved upon successful completion of a voluntary assessment program designed to recognize effective and accomplished teachers who meet high standards based on what teachers should know and be able to do. National Board Certification is available nationwide for most preK–12 teachers.
As part of the certification process, candidates complete 10 assessments that are reviewed by trained teachers in their certificate areas. The assessments include four portfolio entries that feature teaching practice and six constructed response exercises that assess content knowledge.
http://www.nbpts.org/become_a_candidate/what_is_national_board_c
Personally, I think it’s BS. They were talking about it when I was teaching, but there was no extra pay at the time (it was being debated). IMHO, this is more of the touchy-feely junk that teachers have to endure that is, for the most part, practically useless. I don’t think teachers should be paid 15% extra for it, but that’s just my opinion.
=========================
Just a note about your comment:
So I’m with you if the Union’s will actually list out the real job positions with the real requirements and show the real base pay.
If you make 200% of you published base salary, there’s a problem. Either you work way to much, of you are on the clock way too much for not really working (on call), and that’s a management problem and a Union problem.
They do absolutely list the real job positions with the real requirements that show the real base pay. As stated above, the difference between base pay and what some (but not all) employees earn is almost 100% due to overtime. Yes, they might be “on the clock” for too long, but they’ve done studies to find ways to reduce overtime, and found that hiring more people would actually be MORE expensive due to administrative, training, benefit/pension costs, etc. Remember, these positions cannot go unfilled. These are not desk jobs where more paper simply piles up. Peoples lives literally depend on these positions being filled every day. In San Diego, they’ve tried to close some stations (the “brown outs”), and there have been some serious problems because of it, as response times are greatly extended. It’s not nearly as simple as some would like to believe.
February 7, 2011 at 3:53 AM #663417ParticipantOne more…teachers do NOT get 15% extra for a teaching credential. Apparently (and this began after I left, so don’t know all the details for LAUSD), they get an extra 15% for National Board Certification. Here is more info about it:
What Is National Board Certification?
National Board Certification is an advanced teaching credential. It complements, but does not replace, a state’s teacher license. It is valid for 10 years, and renewal candidates must begin the renewal process during their eighth or ninth years as NBCTs.National Board Certification is achieved upon successful completion of a voluntary assessment program designed to recognize effective and accomplished teachers who meet high standards based on what teachers should know and be able to do. National Board Certification is available nationwide for most preK–12 teachers.
As part of the certification process, candidates complete 10 assessments that are reviewed by trained teachers in their certificate areas. The assessments include four portfolio entries that feature teaching practice and six constructed response exercises that assess content knowledge.
http://www.nbpts.org/become_a_candidate/what_is_national_board_c
Personally, I think it’s BS. They were talking about it when I was teaching, but there was no extra pay at the time (it was being debated). IMHO, this is more of the touchy-feely junk that teachers have to endure that is, for the most part, practically useless. I don’t think teachers should be paid 15% extra for it, but that’s just my opinion.
=========================
Just a note about your comment:
So I’m with you if the Union’s will actually list out the real job positions with the real requirements and show the real base pay.
If you make 200% of you published base salary, there’s a problem. Either you work way to much, of you are on the clock way too much for not really working (on call), and that’s a management problem and a Union problem.
They do absolutely list the real job positions with the real requirements that show the real base pay. As stated above, the difference between base pay and what some (but not all) employees earn is almost 100% due to overtime. Yes, they might be “on the clock” for too long, but they’ve done studies to find ways to reduce overtime, and found that hiring more people would actually be MORE expensive due to administrative, training, benefit/pension costs, etc. Remember, these positions cannot go unfilled. These are not desk jobs where more paper simply piles up. Peoples lives literally depend on these positions being filled every day. In San Diego, they’ve tried to close some stations (the “brown outs”), and there have been some serious problems because of it, as response times are greatly extended. It’s not nearly as simple as some would like to believe.
February 7, 2011 at 3:53 AM #664023ParticipantOne more…teachers do NOT get 15% extra for a teaching credential. Apparently (and this began after I left, so don’t know all the details for LAUSD), they get an extra 15% for National Board Certification. Here is more info about it:
What Is National Board Certification?
National Board Certification is an advanced teaching credential. It complements, but does not replace, a state’s teacher license. It is valid for 10 years, and renewal candidates must begin the renewal process during their eighth or ninth years as NBCTs.National Board Certification is achieved upon successful completion of a voluntary assessment program designed to recognize effective and accomplished teachers who meet high standards based on what teachers should know and be able to do. National Board Certification is available nationwide for most preK–12 teachers.
As part of the certification process, candidates complete 10 assessments that are reviewed by trained teachers in their certificate areas. The assessments include four portfolio entries that feature teaching practice and six constructed response exercises that assess content knowledge.
http://www.nbpts.org/become_a_candidate/what_is_national_board_c
Personally, I think it’s BS. They were talking about it when I was teaching, but there was no extra pay at the time (it was being debated). IMHO, this is more of the touchy-feely junk that teachers have to endure that is, for the most part, practically useless. I don’t think teachers should be paid 15% extra for it, but that’s just my opinion.
=========================
Just a note about your comment:
So I’m with you if the Union’s will actually list out the real job positions with the real requirements and show the real base pay.
If you make 200% of you published base salary, there’s a problem. Either you work way to much, of you are on the clock way too much for not really working (on call), and that’s a management problem and a Union problem.
They do absolutely list the real job positions with the real requirements that show the real base pay. As stated above, the difference between base pay and what some (but not all) employees earn is almost 100% due to overtime. Yes, they might be “on the clock” for too long, but they’ve done studies to find ways to reduce overtime, and found that hiring more people would actually be MORE expensive due to administrative, training, benefit/pension costs, etc. Remember, these positions cannot go unfilled. These are not desk jobs where more paper simply piles up. Peoples lives literally depend on these positions being filled every day. In San Diego, they’ve tried to close some stations (the “brown outs”), and there have been some serious problems because of it, as response times are greatly extended. It’s not nearly as simple as some would like to believe.
February 7, 2011 at 3:53 AM #664160ParticipantOne more…teachers do NOT get 15% extra for a teaching credential. Apparently (and this began after I left, so don’t know all the details for LAUSD), they get an extra 15% for National Board Certification. Here is more info about it:
What Is National Board Certification?
National Board Certification is an advanced teaching credential. It complements, but does not replace, a state’s teacher license. It is valid for 10 years, and renewal candidates must begin the renewal process during their eighth or ninth years as NBCTs.National Board Certification is achieved upon successful completion of a voluntary assessment program designed to recognize effective and accomplished teachers who meet high standards based on what teachers should know and be able to do. National Board Certification is available nationwide for most preK–12 teachers.
As part of the certification process, candidates complete 10 assessments that are reviewed by trained teachers in their certificate areas. The assessments include four portfolio entries that feature teaching practice and six constructed response exercises that assess content knowledge.
http://www.nbpts.org/become_a_candidate/what_is_national_board_c
Personally, I think it’s BS. They were talking about it when I was teaching, but there was no extra pay at the time (it was being debated). IMHO, this is more of the touchy-feely junk that teachers have to endure that is, for the most part, practically useless. I don’t think teachers should be paid 15% extra for it, but that’s just my opinion.
=========================
Just a note about your comment:
So I’m with you if the Union’s will actually list out the real job positions with the real requirements and show the real base pay.
If you make 200% of you published base salary, there’s a problem. Either you work way to much, of you are on the clock way too much for not really working (on call), and that’s a management problem and a Union problem.
They do absolutely list the real job positions with the real requirements that show the real base pay. As stated above, the difference between base pay and what some (but not all) employees earn is almost 100% due to overtime. Yes, they might be “on the clock” for too long, but they’ve done studies to find ways to reduce overtime, and found that hiring more people would actually be MORE expensive due to administrative, training, benefit/pension costs, etc. Remember, these positions cannot go unfilled. These are not desk jobs where more paper simply piles up. Peoples lives literally depend on these positions being filled every day. In San Diego, they’ve tried to close some stations (the “brown outs”), and there have been some serious problems because of it, as response times are greatly extended. It’s not nearly as simple as some would like to believe.
February 7, 2011 at 3:53 AM #664498ParticipantOne more…teachers do NOT get 15% extra for a teaching credential. Apparently (and this began after I left, so don’t know all the details for LAUSD), they get an extra 15% for National Board Certification. Here is more info about it:
What Is National Board Certification?
National Board Certification is an advanced teaching credential. It complements, but does not replace, a state’s teacher license. It is valid for 10 years, and renewal candidates must begin the renewal process during their eighth or ninth years as NBCTs.National Board Certification is achieved upon successful completion of a voluntary assessment program designed to recognize effective and accomplished teachers who meet high standards based on what teachers should know and be able to do. National Board Certification is available nationwide for most preK–12 teachers.
As part of the certification process, candidates complete 10 assessments that are reviewed by trained teachers in their certificate areas. The assessments include four portfolio entries that feature teaching practice and six constructed response exercises that assess content knowledge.
http://www.nbpts.org/become_a_candidate/what_is_national_board_c
Personally, I think it’s BS. They were talking about it when I was teaching, but there was no extra pay at the time (it was being debated). IMHO, this is more of the touchy-feely junk that teachers have to endure that is, for the most part, practically useless. I don’t think teachers should be paid 15% extra for it, but that’s just my opinion.
=========================
Just a note about your comment:
So I’m with you if the Union’s will actually list out the real job positions with the real requirements and show the real base pay.
If you make 200% of you published base salary, there’s a problem. Either you work way to much, of you are on the clock way too much for not really working (on call), and that’s a management problem and a Union problem.
They do absolutely list the real job positions with the real requirements that show the real base pay. As stated above, the difference between base pay and what some (but not all) employees earn is almost 100% due to overtime. Yes, they might be “on the clock” for too long, but they’ve done studies to find ways to reduce overtime, and found that hiring more people would actually be MORE expensive due to administrative, training, benefit/pension costs, etc. Remember, these positions cannot go unfilled. These are not desk jobs where more paper simply piles up. Peoples lives literally depend on these positions being filled every day. In San Diego, they’ve tried to close some stations (the “brown outs”), and there have been some serious problems because of it, as response times are greatly extended. It’s not nearly as simple as some would like to believe.
February 7, 2011 at 9:44 AM #663391Anonymous
GuestPerhaps Jerry could learn from Rick how to balance a budget:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-texas-budget-20110207,0,4154023.story
…or perhaps not.
February 7, 2011 at 9:44 AM #663453GuestPerhaps Jerry could learn from Rick how to balance a budget:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-texas-budget-20110207,0,4154023.story
…or perhaps not.
February 7, 2011 at 9:44 AM #664058GuestPerhaps Jerry could learn from Rick how to balance a budget:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-texas-budget-20110207,0,4154023.story
…or perhaps not.
February 7, 2011 at 9:44 AM #664195GuestPerhaps Jerry could learn from Rick how to balance a budget:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-texas-budget-20110207,0,4154023.story
…or perhaps not.
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