Proposition 23

[EconProf]

Bump.
OK, we’ve talked this issue to death. But seeing this on the bottom of the “Active forum topics”, I think we should give BigGovernmentIsGood one more chance to respond to the flood of empirical data contradicting him.
So…you there Big?

[Shadowfax]

[quote=Aecetia]Green is gone: “Renewable power companies have been forced to abandon attempts to raise money on the London and Madrid stock markets amid fallout from the European debt crisis and concerns about future public spending levels.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/may/13/renewables-float-spain-economic-uncertainty%5B/quote%5D
Call me a lefty, but this makes me quite sad. Not only do we not have enough enterprises ready to put “green” energy on the market, but the markets don’t have any support for the few that are left! I don’t see much future in getting the US off oil if there’s little invesment interest in other forms of energy….

To change the tone of this debate a little, what makes “green” energy or other industries so hard to promote and produce? It definitely takes a lot of money (and permits and such) to erect a wind farm, but an oil rig must take at least that much, right? Are the profits just so much bigger? Barrels of oil vs. kilowatts of wind power?

I guess a key difference is there’s little or no intermediate market–crude oil has to be processed and then distributed, so there’s lots of opportunities for money to change hands there.

Wind and sun convert pretty easily (I am no expert, but I don’t see any refineries connected to the houses in town with solar panels) into electricity.

Are we just making green energy too simple to be profitable?

As for the jobs generated in CA–I have seen an uptick of solar-related contractors lately. Surely there’s a few hundred jobs there? Or do they not count becuase they are probably all out of work roofers who just made a career change….

[Shadowfax]

[quote=Aecetia]Green is gone: “Renewable power companies have been forced to abandon attempts to raise money on the London and Madrid stock markets amid fallout from the European debt crisis and concerns about future public spending levels.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/may/13/renewables-float-spain-economic-uncertainty%5B/quote%5D
Call me a lefty, but this makes me quite sad. Not only do we not have enough enterprises ready to put “green” energy on the market, but the markets don’t have any support for the few that are left! I don’t see much future in getting the US off oil if there’s little invesment interest in other forms of energy….

To change the tone of this debate a little, what makes “green” energy or other industries so hard to promote and produce? It definitely takes a lot of money (and permits and such) to erect a wind farm, but an oil rig must take at least that much, right? Are the profits just so much bigger? Barrels of oil vs. kilowatts of wind power?

I guess a key difference is there’s little or no intermediate market–crude oil has to be processed and then distributed, so there’s lots of opportunities for money to change hands there.

Wind and sun convert pretty easily (I am no expert, but I don’t see any refineries connected to the houses in town with solar panels) into electricity.

Are we just making green energy too simple to be profitable?

As for the jobs generated in CA–I have seen an uptick of solar-related contractors lately. Surely there’s a few hundred jobs there? Or do they not count becuase they are probably all out of work roofers who just made a career change….

[Shadowfax]

[quote=Aecetia]Green is gone: “Renewable power companies have been forced to abandon attempts to raise money on the London and Madrid stock markets amid fallout from the European debt crisis and concerns about future public spending levels.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/may/13/renewables-float-spain-economic-uncertainty%5B/quote%5D
Call me a lefty, but this makes me quite sad. Not only do we not have enough enterprises ready to put “green” energy on the market, but the markets don’t have any support for the few that are left! I don’t see much future in getting the US off oil if there’s little invesment interest in other forms of energy….

To change the tone of this debate a little, what makes “green” energy or other industries so hard to promote and produce? It definitely takes a lot of money (and permits and such) to erect a wind farm, but an oil rig must take at least that much, right? Are the profits just so much bigger? Barrels of oil vs. kilowatts of wind power?

I guess a key difference is there’s little or no intermediate market–crude oil has to be processed and then distributed, so there’s lots of opportunities for money to change hands there.

Wind and sun convert pretty easily (I am no expert, but I don’t see any refineries connected to the houses in town with solar panels) into electricity.

Are we just making green energy too simple to be profitable?

As for the jobs generated in CA–I have seen an uptick of solar-related contractors lately. Surely there’s a few hundred jobs there? Or do they not count becuase they are probably all out of work roofers who just made a career change….

[Shadowfax]

[quote=Aecetia]Green is gone: “Renewable power companies have been forced to abandon attempts to raise money on the London and Madrid stock markets amid fallout from the European debt crisis and concerns about future public spending levels.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/may/13/renewables-float-spain-economic-uncertainty%5B/quote%5D
Call me a lefty, but this makes me quite sad. Not only do we not have enough enterprises ready to put “green” energy on the market, but the markets don’t have any support for the few that are left! I don’t see much future in getting the US off oil if there’s little invesment interest in other forms of energy….

To change the tone of this debate a little, what makes “green” energy or other industries so hard to promote and produce? It definitely takes a lot of money (and permits and such) to erect a wind farm, but an oil rig must take at least that much, right? Are the profits just so much bigger? Barrels of oil vs. kilowatts of wind power?

I guess a key difference is there’s little or no intermediate market–crude oil has to be processed and then distributed, so there’s lots of opportunities for money to change hands there.

Wind and sun convert pretty easily (I am no expert, but I don’t see any refineries connected to the houses in town with solar panels) into electricity.

Are we just making green energy too simple to be profitable?

As for the jobs generated in CA–I have seen an uptick of solar-related contractors lately. Surely there’s a few hundred jobs there? Or do they not count becuase they are probably all out of work roofers who just made a career change….

[Shadowfax]

[quote=Aecetia]Green is gone: “Renewable power companies have been forced to abandon attempts to raise money on the London and Madrid stock markets amid fallout from the European debt crisis and concerns about future public spending levels.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/may/13/renewables-float-spain-economic-uncertainty%5B/quote%5D
Call me a lefty, but this makes me quite sad. Not only do we not have enough enterprises ready to put “green” energy on the market, but the markets don’t have any support for the few that are left! I don’t see much future in getting the US off oil if there’s little invesment interest in other forms of energy….

To change the tone of this debate a little, what makes “green” energy or other industries so hard to promote and produce? It definitely takes a lot of money (and permits and such) to erect a wind farm, but an oil rig must take at least that much, right? Are the profits just so much bigger? Barrels of oil vs. kilowatts of wind power?

I guess a key difference is there’s little or no intermediate market–crude oil has to be processed and then distributed, so there’s lots of opportunities for money to change hands there.

Wind and sun convert pretty easily (I am no expert, but I don’t see any refineries connected to the houses in town with solar panels) into electricity.

Are we just making green energy too simple to be profitable?

As for the jobs generated in CA–I have seen an uptick of solar-related contractors lately. Surely there’s a few hundred jobs there? Or do they not count becuase they are probably all out of work roofers who just made a career change….

[jstoesz]

Its all about money. If people can make money in renewables they will. As it stands a kw from wind or solar is significantly more expensive than a kw from oil…No conspiracies here people…it is all about the bottom line!

[jstoesz]

Its all about money. If people can make money in renewables they will. As it stands a kw from wind or solar is significantly more expensive than a kw from oil…No conspiracies here people…it is all about the bottom line!

[jstoesz]

Its all about money. If people can make money in renewables they will. As it stands a kw from wind or solar is significantly more expensive than a kw from oil…No conspiracies here people…it is all about the bottom line!

[jstoesz]

Its all about money. If people can make money in renewables they will. As it stands a kw from wind or solar is significantly more expensive than a kw from oil…No conspiracies here people…it is all about the bottom line!

[jstoesz]

Its all about money. If people can make money in renewables they will. As it stands a kw from wind or solar is significantly more expensive than a kw from oil…No conspiracies here people…it is all about the bottom line!

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Shadowfax: I don’t think you’re a Leftie at all, in fact, like Gandalf and SK and afx, you’re one of the more intelligent, thoughtful and rational posters on the board. When I think of the word “liberal” (and not as a pejorative, but a compliment, mind you), you’re in that group.

But the point that observation makes is what’s actually sad. We’re now so polarized that the support of green/clean energy is now part of the Left versus Right rubric. And, those that have been heavily propagandized/indoctrinated, like BigGubment, immediately revert to form and begin slinging insults and invective when questioned objectively about something that needs to be economically viable before it can challenge existing energy sources.

I think nuke should be included in the green/clean tech category and I think we need to be able to actually assess how these technologies “pencil”, in terms of cost- and time-effectiveness (how much energy can be produced and at what cost and how quickly).

I would imagine someone like EconProf, who is an actual teacher of economics, can undoubtedly state it less baldly than I, but ever since turning green energy, AGW, and climate change into religion, we’ve been unable to have a serious discussion on the topic without accusations flying back and forth and any questioning turning into heresy.

This country has been promised an Energy Policy (capital E and capital P) since the Nixon Administration, but it hasn’t materialized. The hidden costs of import oil, especially in American blood, are unconscionably expensive, but what people like BigGubment don’t realize is that, without a realistic and cost-effective replacement, the discussion is moot.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Shadowfax: I don’t think you’re a Leftie at all, in fact, like Gandalf and SK and afx, you’re one of the more intelligent, thoughtful and rational posters on the board. When I think of the word “liberal” (and not as a pejorative, but a compliment, mind you), you’re in that group.

But the point that observation makes is what’s actually sad. We’re now so polarized that the support of green/clean energy is now part of the Left versus Right rubric. And, those that have been heavily propagandized/indoctrinated, like BigGubment, immediately revert to form and begin slinging insults and invective when questioned objectively about something that needs to be economically viable before it can challenge existing energy sources.

I think nuke should be included in the green/clean tech category and I think we need to be able to actually assess how these technologies “pencil”, in terms of cost- and time-effectiveness (how much energy can be produced and at what cost and how quickly).

I would imagine someone like EconProf, who is an actual teacher of economics, can undoubtedly state it less baldly than I, but ever since turning green energy, AGW, and climate change into religion, we’ve been unable to have a serious discussion on the topic without accusations flying back and forth and any questioning turning into heresy.

This country has been promised an Energy Policy (capital E and capital P) since the Nixon Administration, but it hasn’t materialized. The hidden costs of import oil, especially in American blood, are unconscionably expensive, but what people like BigGubment don’t realize is that, without a realistic and cost-effective replacement, the discussion is moot.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Shadowfax: I don’t think you’re a Leftie at all, in fact, like Gandalf and SK and afx, you’re one of the more intelligent, thoughtful and rational posters on the board. When I think of the word “liberal” (and not as a pejorative, but a compliment, mind you), you’re in that group.

But the point that observation makes is what’s actually sad. We’re now so polarized that the support of green/clean energy is now part of the Left versus Right rubric. And, those that have been heavily propagandized/indoctrinated, like BigGubment, immediately revert to form and begin slinging insults and invective when questioned objectively about something that needs to be economically viable before it can challenge existing energy sources.

I think nuke should be included in the green/clean tech category and I think we need to be able to actually assess how these technologies “pencil”, in terms of cost- and time-effectiveness (how much energy can be produced and at what cost and how quickly).

I would imagine someone like EconProf, who is an actual teacher of economics, can undoubtedly state it less baldly than I, but ever since turning green energy, AGW, and climate change into religion, we’ve been unable to have a serious discussion on the topic without accusations flying back and forth and any questioning turning into heresy.

This country has been promised an Energy Policy (capital E and capital P) since the Nixon Administration, but it hasn’t materialized. The hidden costs of import oil, especially in American blood, are unconscionably expensive, but what people like BigGubment don’t realize is that, without a realistic and cost-effective replacement, the discussion is moot.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Shadowfax: I don’t think you’re a Leftie at all, in fact, like Gandalf and SK and afx, you’re one of the more intelligent, thoughtful and rational posters on the board. When I think of the word “liberal” (and not as a pejorative, but a compliment, mind you), you’re in that group.

But the point that observation makes is what’s actually sad. We’re now so polarized that the support of green/clean energy is now part of the Left versus Right rubric. And, those that have been heavily propagandized/indoctrinated, like BigGubment, immediately revert to form and begin slinging insults and invective when questioned objectively about something that needs to be economically viable before it can challenge existing energy sources.

I think nuke should be included in the green/clean tech category and I think we need to be able to actually assess how these technologies “pencil”, in terms of cost- and time-effectiveness (how much energy can be produced and at what cost and how quickly).

I would imagine someone like EconProf, who is an actual teacher of economics, can undoubtedly state it less baldly than I, but ever since turning green energy, AGW, and climate change into religion, we’ve been unable to have a serious discussion on the topic without accusations flying back and forth and any questioning turning into heresy.

This country has been promised an Energy Policy (capital E and capital P) since the Nixon Administration, but it hasn’t materialized. The hidden costs of import oil, especially in American blood, are unconscionably expensive, but what people like BigGubment don’t realize is that, without a realistic and cost-effective replacement, the discussion is moot.

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