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scaredyclassic.
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June 14, 2014 at 1:26 PM #21128June 14, 2014 at 2:14 PM #775124
spdrun
ParticipantTherein lies the difference between patriotism and jingoism.
June 14, 2014 at 4:00 PM #775127FlyerInHi
Guest[quote=scaredyclassic]
seems liek today there is a heavy contingent of people who want to be heavikly armed personally to ward off an oppressive evil govt.
yet i tend to think that of that group, many are proUS military…
[/quote]
I think that you very accurately put it right there.
It’s within that group that you see parents encouraging their children, just out of high school, to enlist in the military.
It’s a question of culture and education. I doubt any on this board would allow their kids to enlist in the military.
Is there any data on the high schools/zip codes where enlisted military members come from?
June 14, 2014 at 5:03 PM #775134ucodegen
Participant[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=scaredyclassic]
seems liek today there is a heavy contingent of people who want to be heavikly armed personally to ward off an oppressive evil govt.
yet i tend to think that of that group, many are proUS military…
[/quote]
I think that you very accurately put it right there.
It’s within that group that you see parents encouraging their children, just out of high school, to enlist in the military.
It’s a question of culture and education. I doubt any on this board would allow their kids to enlist in the military.
Is there any data on the high schools/zip codes where enlisted military members come from?[/quote]
Complete demonstration of lack of core values – and focus on self serving.I am pro US military. They put their lives on the line. That does not mean that I am pro current commander in chief, nor previous commander in chief. Nor does that mean I approve of congress’s actions. The commander in chief as well as our congress are not putting their lives on the line when they order our military to some action. On the other hand, the members of our military have committed to put their lives on the line to do what has been requested of them, whether it costs them their lives or not. They put their lives and trust that ‘We the People’ are using our vote wisely and not just voting for a party of specific face because we ‘like how they look’ or say what we want to here.
If you don’t like what the military is doing, figure out why they have been ordered to do it (Current MSM is a really poor source. They are more interested in stories that sell and drum up emotion than informing – queue Dire Straits) as well as reflect on who you voted for and why. The military is really only doing what it has been instructed to.
June 14, 2014 at 5:04 PM #775135scaredyclassic
Participant[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=scaredyclassic]
seems liek today there is a heavy contingent of people who want to be heavikly armed personally to ward off an oppressive evil govt.
yet i tend to think that of that group, many are proUS military…
[/quote]
I think that you very accurately put it right there.
It’s within that group that you see parents encouraging their children, just out of high school, to enlist in the military.
It’s a question of culture and education. I doubt any on this board would allow their kids to enlist in the military.
Is there any data on the high schools/zip codes where enlisted military members come from?[/quote]
im pretty sure the military was lowering IQ standards when they were recruitng heavily for Iraq. now it’s probably as competitive as a good college. but on average probably a lot more lower IQ dudes are tring to take the test to get in than higher IQ. but that’s justa guess…June 14, 2014 at 5:12 PM #775136Participant[quote=ucodegen][quote=FlyerInHi][quote=scaredyclassic]
seems liek today there is a heavy contingent of people who want to be heavikly armed personally to ward off an oppressive evil govt.
yet i tend to think that of that group, many are proUS military…
[/quote]
I think that you very accurately put it right there.
It’s within that group that you see parents encouraging their children, just out of high school, to enlist in the military.
It’s a question of culture and education. I doubt any on this board would allow their kids to enlist in the military.
Is there any data on the high schools/zip codes where enlisted military members come from?[/quote]
Complete demonstration of lack of core values – and focus on self serving.I am pro US military. They put their lives on the line. That does not mean that I am pro current commander in chief, nor previous commander in chief. Nor does that mean I approve of congress’s actions. The commander in chief as well as our congress are not putting their lives on the line when they order our military to some action. On the other hand, the members of our military have committed to put their lives on the line to do what has been requested of them, whether it costs them their lives or not. They put their lives and trust that ‘We the People’ are using our vote wisely and not just voting for a party of specific face because we ‘like how they look’ or say what we want to here.
If you don’t like what the military is doing, figure out why they have been ordered to do it (Current MSM is a really poor source. They are more interested in stories that sell and drum up emotion than informing – queue Dire Straits) as well as reflect on who you voted for and why. The military is really only doing what it has been instructed to.[/quote]
the military is just following orders, in other words, so everyone is off the hook?
i don’t buy it…
putting your life on the line is irrelevant.
if you volunteer for a corrupt private rorganization, even if it’s risky and you could die in the work, say an illegal whaling ship expedition, we don’t say, wow, taking risks, putting your life on the line, catching whales, making money……we say, why are you volunteering for a whaling experdition in vioaltion of international law? why are you involved in this mess. what in the hell was going through your mind when you volunteered for an obviously evil venture?
is there any point where we say, siniing up for tthe US military is like signing up for an illegal whaling expedition?
is there any point where a guy signing up for this is not signing up honorably to serve his country, but is signing up knowing we are doing bad crap?
is it ever OK for a regular citizen to say to say, NO, not in my name, no thank you, do not serve me, i do not want your service, in this way. I would prefer you NOT serve me whale meat, or back the military. youdo not have to follow these orders if you do not VOLUNTEER in the first place…
. I would prefer you not Volunteer to put your lfie on the line for a corrupt military industrial world whaling death expedition. iw ould prefer you fight for a better country here…
June 14, 2014 at 6:01 PM #775143Participantis it ever OK for a regular citizen to say to say, NO, not in my name, no thank you, do not serve me, i do not want your service, in this way.
Not only OK, but sometimes the only moral choice. Even soldiers are required not to obey illegal orders.
June 14, 2014 at 6:11 PM #775145joec
ParticipantIsn’t military service or defending the US a requirement of being a US citizen?
The problem with a lot of these foreign military campaigns is that people see it as serving certain special interests or political parties (oil, etc).
Looking at Iraq now and what’s going on, I wonder if the US is going to start taking a back seat to a lot of these foreign campaigns since no one wants to see US boots on the ground. Without troops on the ground, you can’t really hold or maintain territory, or really build allies for intelligence/etc…
Longer term, for the terrorists, it looks like they will slowly gather strength since no International power looks to have the will to do anything to send troops in a foreign hostile country. I wonder if this is just the start of a cold/contain war where terrorists start slowly building up strength…and is normal for a while.
I heard Iraq lost near 1.3 billion in military equipment that the ISIS group has now including hundreds of tanks, a couple helicopters, thousands of rounds of ammunition.
June 14, 2014 at 6:22 PM #775146Participant[quote=scaredyclassic]
the military is just following orders, in other words, so everyone is off the hook?[/quote]
I wouldn’t expect a strawman argument from you.. how do you get from Military to everyone off the hook? Classic strawman. Does not follow. For the military to do its job, it has to follow orders. You can’t have anarchy in command when in the middle of a military operation. I clearly stated; take a look at who we choose as Commander in Chief and Congress. If we don’t like how they are acting, take a long hard look at who we elect. The finger points back to us!!! We can’t blame anyone else, whether you would like to or not!More strawmans:
is there any point where we say, siniing up for tthe US military is like signing up for an illegal whaling expedition?
is there any point where a guy signing up for this is not signing up honorably to serve his country, but is signing up knowing we are doing bad crap?
NOTE: Being in the miliary means you are going to have to do bad, nasty crap. War and miliary operations ARE nasty. The whole purpose is to avoid war and not make it ‘sanitary’. Military options should always be considered the last recourse, not the first. If it is sanitary, easily done by pushing buttons thousands of miles away, those commanding the operations will cease to regard the real consequences of that button press.
[quote=scaredyclassic]
putting your life on the line is irrelevant.
[/quote] That statement is true if you have never had to put your life on the line, never see your family again, relatives again.. have no children etc. A very immature and juvenile statement.[quote=scaredyclassic]
if you volunteer for a corrupt private rorganization, even if it’s risky and you could die in the work, say an illegal whaling ship expedition, we don’t say, wow, taking risks, putting your life on the line, catching whales, making money……we say, why are you volunteering for a whaling experdition in vioaltion of international law? why are you involved in this mess. what in the hell was going through your mind when you volunteered for an obviously evil venture?[/quote]Man are you going for strawman arguments; they just keep coming. First and foremost: THE MILITARY DID NOT GENERATE THEIR OWN ORDERS!!! It came from the Commander in Chief. So that leaves the uncomfortable question: “Who put the Commander in Chief in charge or in his/her current position?” What would have happened if all of those people who put him in charge, stood up with one voice and said “STOP”?[quote=scaredyclassic]is there any point where we say, siniing up for tthe US military is like signing up for an illegal whaling expedition?
is there any point where a guy signing up for this is not signing up honorably to serve his country, but is signing up knowing we are doing bad crap?[/quote]
So what happens when we actually need the military? How do you get 2 to 10 years of experience built up? You can’t do that on a moments notice.[quote=scaredyclassic]
is it ever OK for a regular citizen to say to say, NO, not in my name, no thank you, do not serve me, i do not want your service, in this way. I would prefer you NOT serve me whale meat, or back the military. youdo not have to follow these orders if you do not VOLUNTEER in the first place…. I would prefer you not Volunteer to put your lfie on the line for a corrupt military industrial world whaling death expedition. iw ould prefer you fight for a better country here…[/quote]You really need to avoid strawman arguments. It corrupts what ever valid points you may have by taking ridiculously extreme positions to try to demonstrate your point. The real problem here is that the Military/Commander In Chief/Congress have to be responsible to more that just your sole opinion. The other real problem with your position is that to have an effective military, they must follow orders. Arguing over command on the battlefield invites only one thing.. your own death.
June 14, 2014 at 6:37 PM #775149Participant[quote=joec]Isn’t military service or defending the US a requirement of being a US citizen?[/quote] Its a bit more nuanced than that.
[quote=joec]The problem with a lot of these foreign military campaigns is that people see it as serving certain special interests or political parties (oil, etc).[/quote]Some of that blame can be laid on our own Main-Stream-Media. Some of that can be laid on poor focus. Some of that can be laid on jingoism that the BushII initiated action used. “Shock and Awe – how corny. They ended up burning a resource that would have identified all of Saddam Hussein’s closest, underground supporters were. I could go on with how that was all F**Ked up..
[quote=joec]Looking at Iraq now and what’s going on, I wonder if the US is going to start taking a back seat to a lot of these foreign campaigns since no one wants to see US boots on the ground. Without troops on the ground, you can’t really hold or maintain territory, or really build allies for intelligence/etc…[/quote]I think they are going to take the approach of ‘remote’ or a ‘button press’ war.
[quote=joec]Longer term, for the terrorists, it looks like they will slowly gather strength since no International power looks to have the will to do anything to send troops in a foreign hostile country. I wonder if this is just the start of a cold/contain war where terrorists start slowly building up strength…and is normal for a while.[/quote]Could be. Looks ok to the politicians, but eventually you will have to deal with the increased internal pressure. I think the best approach if this continues is to bring a strike team in with oil well professionals and deep-plug all the wells that we fixed when over there. Use Carbide and Epoxy mix so that it will tear up drill-heads. Then just walk away. Let them fight over that stupid piece of sand. They have not comp’d us for fixing the wells that Saddam destroyed, new military equipment that they are just abandoning and running away from etc.
[quote=joec]I heard Iraq lost near 1.3 billion in military equipment that the ISIS group has now including hundreds of tanks, a couple helicopters, thousands of rounds of ammunition.[/quote]Something like that. They elected a totally incompetant Shiite, (wanted to drop that extra i) who filled their military command with nepotistic drones who don’t know how to even fight a simple skirmish. The ISIS groups tactics are very simple and they are taking a simple path. A little guerrilla tactics along the road they are using will bring them to a screeching halt.. but now it may even be a little to late for that. It looks like current Iraq military command is planning to fight them IN Baghdad. Dumb. They need to push the battle towards the insurgents and get it away from the populace that can be harmed.
June 14, 2014 at 7:18 PM #775152ParticipantThe other real problem with your position is that to have an effective military, they must follow orders.
Short of an actual severe national emergency like WW II, do we actually want an effective military?
June 14, 2014 at 7:26 PM #775153Participant[quote=spdrun]
The other real problem with your position is that to have an effective military, they must follow orders.
Short of an actual severe national emergency like WW II, do we actually want an effective military?[/quote]I think yes. But I think we also need to make sure we hold those we elect to high standards and be open on our discussions of international politics, whether or not force is required, what are the real consequences down the line should we avoid getting involved etc. Too much has been done by stupid sound bites these days. It is easier to make an inflammatory statement than to build a reasoned position and argument.
I don’t think the military is the answer to all situations, but it the military force should be significant enough to give pause to the Kim Jung Il and other puffed up suited dictators – even with all of their self delusions. Too many countries seem to see that military force should be the first not last approach.
June 14, 2014 at 7:42 PM #775155GuestGiven the current situation, would you allow your kids to enlist?
Saying no begins at home.
If it’s not honorable to enlist, then the politicians will be deprived of the tools to make wrong military decisions.
I’m pretty sure that Iraq would not have happened if Bush had to reinstate the draft. If anything, Afghanistan and Iraq would not have lasted OVER A DECADE.
June 14, 2014 at 9:03 PM #775159Participantguns dont kill people, people kill people.
military personnel don’t act immorally, only the commander in chief acts immorally.
on the other hand, moral actors don’t sign up to put themselves in immoral positions….
June 14, 2014 at 9:06 PM #775160Participantwhen you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
when you have the biggest badass military force the world has ever seen, everything looks like a target.
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