OT: Public pay & benefits

[CA renter]

[quote=sdrealtor]I cant beleive you are trying to make the OT argument not being a choice. Do you think all the consultants, salespeople and field reps that leave their homes Monday morning and return Friday night close to 52 weeks a year view that as benefit. They are devoting over 100 hours a week to their jobs. Its part of the job and 40 or even 50 hr works weeks are long gone. I could care less what a salry range is or how many hours someone works. The bottomline is how much they takes home and its way WAY out of line.

As for the 50% more for fireman I just remembered I was looking at the numbers for a cushy little burg by the sea known as Encinitas. I’ll post all the w-2 earnings numbers of every single firefighter and cop when I get a chance and they can speak for themselves.[/quote]

And I can guarantee you that any salesperson, consultant, and rep who works away from home 24/5 is making at least as much as most firefighters and cops while providing much less benefit to society.

Sorry, sdr, you are wrong. You cannot compare pay without any regard for the hours worked.

[no_such_reality]

[quote=CA renter]
The largest chunk of overtime for firefighters is earned during fire season. They are working 12-24 hours at a time (I’ve known some who were awake for five days straight), breathing smoke and working in extremely hot, dangerous conditions, sleeping in the dirt or on top of fire engines for a few hours at a time, etc. They can be deployed for weeks or even months at a time (that’s where those really high O/T numbers come from). If you think they’re going to do that for free, you’re crazy.[/quote]

Nice story and far from reality. The truth is they work a 24 hour shift. They get paid for being assigned to the firehouse and ‘available’. They get paid to sleep. They get paid to take the truck down to the local Togos to get lunch. They get paid when they swing the fire engine over to Ralph’s and pick of groceries for the station. They get paid when they’re putting Alpo on each others plate like in LA.

They may go out during fire season and really bank the money, but the fact of the matter is the fire department management, union and fire fighters are all complicit in keeping and maintaining a system structured to generate massive OT payment. How many private sector jobs make $75,000 a year as an hourly employee?

I don’t want firefighters working days or weeks at at a time, it’s a SAFETY isse. I don’t want firefighters working 60-70 hours a week. I’ve seen what 60-70 hours of office work does to people after just a few weeks. So either they aren’t ‘working’ or they’re zombies and that’s a safety issue.

The culture of overtime needs to change.

The neener neener attitude of those defending them needs to change. I can work there? is the best you’ve got? I could reroof my house myself, but I don’t. When I got the first idiotic bid for thousands over market rate, did I think well, I could do it myself? No! I thought ‘does he think I’m stupid?’ I then used the realistic bids that weren’t gouging me, got a couple more and awarded the business to another contractor.

The fire department, union and firefighters are all complicit in a culture that is gouging and bilking the taxpayers.

As for signing up for those jobs, many fire departments have so many applicants, they aren’t taking more applications.

From the SD Government Fire & Rescue careers page: “The City does not advertise widely for positions where the number of local applicants significantly exceeds the number of jobs available, such as Fire Recruit. These jobs are opened infrequently and the resulting eligibility list usually lasts for two years. ”

[no_such_reality]

[quote=CA renter]
The largest chunk of overtime for firefighters is earned during fire season. They are working 12-24 hours at a time (I’ve known some who were awake for five days straight), breathing smoke and working in extremely hot, dangerous conditions, sleeping in the dirt or on top of fire engines for a few hours at a time, etc. They can be deployed for weeks or even months at a time (that’s where those really high O/T numbers come from). If you think they’re going to do that for free, you’re crazy.[/quote]

Nice story and far from reality. The truth is they work a 24 hour shift. They get paid for being assigned to the firehouse and ‘available’. They get paid to sleep. They get paid to take the truck down to the local Togos to get lunch. They get paid when they swing the fire engine over to Ralph’s and pick of groceries for the station. They get paid when they’re putting Alpo on each others plate like in LA.

They may go out during fire season and really bank the money, but the fact of the matter is the fire department management, union and fire fighters are all complicit in keeping and maintaining a system structured to generate massive OT payment. How many private sector jobs make $75,000 a year as an hourly employee?

I don’t want firefighters working days or weeks at at a time, it’s a SAFETY isse. I don’t want firefighters working 60-70 hours a week. I’ve seen what 60-70 hours of office work does to people after just a few weeks. So either they aren’t ‘working’ or they’re zombies and that’s a safety issue.

The culture of overtime needs to change.

The neener neener attitude of those defending them needs to change. I can work there? is the best you’ve got? I could reroof my house myself, but I don’t. When I got the first idiotic bid for thousands over market rate, did I think well, I could do it myself? No! I thought ‘does he think I’m stupid?’ I then used the realistic bids that weren’t gouging me, got a couple more and awarded the business to another contractor.

The fire department, union and firefighters are all complicit in a culture that is gouging and bilking the taxpayers.

As for signing up for those jobs, many fire departments have so many applicants, they aren’t taking more applications.

From the SD Government Fire & Rescue careers page: “The City does not advertise widely for positions where the number of local applicants significantly exceeds the number of jobs available, such as Fire Recruit. These jobs are opened infrequently and the resulting eligibility list usually lasts for two years. ”

[no_such_reality]

[quote=CA renter]
The largest chunk of overtime for firefighters is earned during fire season. They are working 12-24 hours at a time (I’ve known some who were awake for five days straight), breathing smoke and working in extremely hot, dangerous conditions, sleeping in the dirt or on top of fire engines for a few hours at a time, etc. They can be deployed for weeks or even months at a time (that’s where those really high O/T numbers come from). If you think they’re going to do that for free, you’re crazy.[/quote]

Nice story and far from reality. The truth is they work a 24 hour shift. They get paid for being assigned to the firehouse and ‘available’. They get paid to sleep. They get paid to take the truck down to the local Togos to get lunch. They get paid when they swing the fire engine over to Ralph’s and pick of groceries for the station. They get paid when they’re putting Alpo on each others plate like in LA.

They may go out during fire season and really bank the money, but the fact of the matter is the fire department management, union and fire fighters are all complicit in keeping and maintaining a system structured to generate massive OT payment. How many private sector jobs make $75,000 a year as an hourly employee?

I don’t want firefighters working days or weeks at at a time, it’s a SAFETY isse. I don’t want firefighters working 60-70 hours a week. I’ve seen what 60-70 hours of office work does to people after just a few weeks. So either they aren’t ‘working’ or they’re zombies and that’s a safety issue.

The culture of overtime needs to change.

The neener neener attitude of those defending them needs to change. I can work there? is the best you’ve got? I could reroof my house myself, but I don’t. When I got the first idiotic bid for thousands over market rate, did I think well, I could do it myself? No! I thought ‘does he think I’m stupid?’ I then used the realistic bids that weren’t gouging me, got a couple more and awarded the business to another contractor.

The fire department, union and firefighters are all complicit in a culture that is gouging and bilking the taxpayers.

As for signing up for those jobs, many fire departments have so many applicants, they aren’t taking more applications.

From the SD Government Fire & Rescue careers page: “The City does not advertise widely for positions where the number of local applicants significantly exceeds the number of jobs available, such as Fire Recruit. These jobs are opened infrequently and the resulting eligibility list usually lasts for two years. ”

[no_such_reality]

[quote=CA renter]
The largest chunk of overtime for firefighters is earned during fire season. They are working 12-24 hours at a time (I’ve known some who were awake for five days straight), breathing smoke and working in extremely hot, dangerous conditions, sleeping in the dirt or on top of fire engines for a few hours at a time, etc. They can be deployed for weeks or even months at a time (that’s where those really high O/T numbers come from). If you think they’re going to do that for free, you’re crazy.[/quote]

Nice story and far from reality. The truth is they work a 24 hour shift. They get paid for being assigned to the firehouse and ‘available’. They get paid to sleep. They get paid to take the truck down to the local Togos to get lunch. They get paid when they swing the fire engine over to Ralph’s and pick of groceries for the station. They get paid when they’re putting Alpo on each others plate like in LA.

They may go out during fire season and really bank the money, but the fact of the matter is the fire department management, union and fire fighters are all complicit in keeping and maintaining a system structured to generate massive OT payment. How many private sector jobs make $75,000 a year as an hourly employee?

I don’t want firefighters working days or weeks at at a time, it’s a SAFETY isse. I don’t want firefighters working 60-70 hours a week. I’ve seen what 60-70 hours of office work does to people after just a few weeks. So either they aren’t ‘working’ or they’re zombies and that’s a safety issue.

The culture of overtime needs to change.

The neener neener attitude of those defending them needs to change. I can work there? is the best you’ve got? I could reroof my house myself, but I don’t. When I got the first idiotic bid for thousands over market rate, did I think well, I could do it myself? No! I thought ‘does he think I’m stupid?’ I then used the realistic bids that weren’t gouging me, got a couple more and awarded the business to another contractor.

The fire department, union and firefighters are all complicit in a culture that is gouging and bilking the taxpayers.

As for signing up for those jobs, many fire departments have so many applicants, they aren’t taking more applications.

From the SD Government Fire & Rescue careers page: “The City does not advertise widely for positions where the number of local applicants significantly exceeds the number of jobs available, such as Fire Recruit. These jobs are opened infrequently and the resulting eligibility list usually lasts for two years. ”

[no_such_reality]

[quote=CA renter]
The largest chunk of overtime for firefighters is earned during fire season. They are working 12-24 hours at a time (I’ve known some who were awake for five days straight), breathing smoke and working in extremely hot, dangerous conditions, sleeping in the dirt or on top of fire engines for a few hours at a time, etc. They can be deployed for weeks or even months at a time (that’s where those really high O/T numbers come from). If you think they’re going to do that for free, you’re crazy.[/quote]

Nice story and far from reality. The truth is they work a 24 hour shift. They get paid for being assigned to the firehouse and ‘available’. They get paid to sleep. They get paid to take the truck down to the local Togos to get lunch. They get paid when they swing the fire engine over to Ralph’s and pick of groceries for the station. They get paid when they’re putting Alpo on each others plate like in LA.

They may go out during fire season and really bank the money, but the fact of the matter is the fire department management, union and fire fighters are all complicit in keeping and maintaining a system structured to generate massive OT payment. How many private sector jobs make $75,000 a year as an hourly employee?

I don’t want firefighters working days or weeks at at a time, it’s a SAFETY isse. I don’t want firefighters working 60-70 hours a week. I’ve seen what 60-70 hours of office work does to people after just a few weeks. So either they aren’t ‘working’ or they’re zombies and that’s a safety issue.

The culture of overtime needs to change.

The neener neener attitude of those defending them needs to change. I can work there? is the best you’ve got? I could reroof my house myself, but I don’t. When I got the first idiotic bid for thousands over market rate, did I think well, I could do it myself? No! I thought ‘does he think I’m stupid?’ I then used the realistic bids that weren’t gouging me, got a couple more and awarded the business to another contractor.

The fire department, union and firefighters are all complicit in a culture that is gouging and bilking the taxpayers.

As for signing up for those jobs, many fire departments have so many applicants, they aren’t taking more applications.

From the SD Government Fire & Rescue careers page: “The City does not advertise widely for positions where the number of local applicants significantly exceeds the number of jobs available, such as Fire Recruit. These jobs are opened infrequently and the resulting eligibility list usually lasts for two years. ”

[sdrealtor]

If you were appalled before prepare yourself to get spitting nails mad. I just got back from trick or treating with my kids, their friends and a few dads. Two of the dad’s (not me) were discussing this very issue and I was not the one to bring it up but of course I jumped in. Here is where it gets outright infuriating. One of the guys is a local CPA. He has hundreds of tax clients. I asked him how many retired cops and fireman he had as clients and he figured it was about 15 to 20. I asked him if they really got these huge pensions and he laughed saying it is actually much worse than I could have imagined. He said almost without exception, his clients all mysteriously got disabled in their last year of service and based upon the way they walk into his office not one of those is truly disabled. Not only do they collect these huge pensions but with a wink and a nod they go out on disability right before retiring so they can collect it all TAX FREE! Sorry I gotta go smack myself in the face with a 2X4.

Happy Halloween all….

[sdrealtor]

If you were appalled before prepare yourself to get spitting nails mad. I just got back from trick or treating with my kids, their friends and a few dads. Two of the dad’s (not me) were discussing this very issue and I was not the one to bring it up but of course I jumped in. Here is where it gets outright infuriating. One of the guys is a local CPA. He has hundreds of tax clients. I asked him how many retired cops and fireman he had as clients and he figured it was about 15 to 20. I asked him if they really got these huge pensions and he laughed saying it is actually much worse than I could have imagined. He said almost without exception, his clients all mysteriously got disabled in their last year of service and based upon the way they walk into his office not one of those is truly disabled. Not only do they collect these huge pensions but with a wink and a nod they go out on disability right before retiring so they can collect it all TAX FREE! Sorry I gotta go smack myself in the face with a 2X4.

Happy Halloween all….

[sdrealtor]

If you were appalled before prepare yourself to get spitting nails mad. I just got back from trick or treating with my kids, their friends and a few dads. Two of the dad’s (not me) were discussing this very issue and I was not the one to bring it up but of course I jumped in. Here is where it gets outright infuriating. One of the guys is a local CPA. He has hundreds of tax clients. I asked him how many retired cops and fireman he had as clients and he figured it was about 15 to 20. I asked him if they really got these huge pensions and he laughed saying it is actually much worse than I could have imagined. He said almost without exception, his clients all mysteriously got disabled in their last year of service and based upon the way they walk into his office not one of those is truly disabled. Not only do they collect these huge pensions but with a wink and a nod they go out on disability right before retiring so they can collect it all TAX FREE! Sorry I gotta go smack myself in the face with a 2X4.

Happy Halloween all….

[sdrealtor]

If you were appalled before prepare yourself to get spitting nails mad. I just got back from trick or treating with my kids, their friends and a few dads. Two of the dad’s (not me) were discussing this very issue and I was not the one to bring it up but of course I jumped in. Here is where it gets outright infuriating. One of the guys is a local CPA. He has hundreds of tax clients. I asked him how many retired cops and fireman he had as clients and he figured it was about 15 to 20. I asked him if they really got these huge pensions and he laughed saying it is actually much worse than I could have imagined. He said almost without exception, his clients all mysteriously got disabled in their last year of service and based upon the way they walk into his office not one of those is truly disabled. Not only do they collect these huge pensions but with a wink and a nod they go out on disability right before retiring so they can collect it all TAX FREE! Sorry I gotta go smack myself in the face with a 2X4.

Happy Halloween all….

[sdrealtor]

If you were appalled before prepare yourself to get spitting nails mad. I just got back from trick or treating with my kids, their friends and a few dads. Two of the dad’s (not me) were discussing this very issue and I was not the one to bring it up but of course I jumped in. Here is where it gets outright infuriating. One of the guys is a local CPA. He has hundreds of tax clients. I asked him how many retired cops and fireman he had as clients and he figured it was about 15 to 20. I asked him if they really got these huge pensions and he laughed saying it is actually much worse than I could have imagined. He said almost without exception, his clients all mysteriously got disabled in their last year of service and based upon the way they walk into his office not one of those is truly disabled. Not only do they collect these huge pensions but with a wink and a nod they go out on disability right before retiring so they can collect it all TAX FREE! Sorry I gotta go smack myself in the face with a 2X4.

Happy Halloween all….

[CA renter]

[quote=sdrealtor]If you were appalled before prepare yourself to get spitting nails mad. I just got back from trick or treating with my kids, their friends and a few dads. Two of the dad’s (not me) were discussing this very issue and I was not the one to bring it up but of course I jumped in. Here is where it gets outright infuriating. One of the guys is a local CPA. He has hundreds of tax clients. I asked him how many retired cops and fireman he had as clients and he figured it was about 15 to 20. I asked him if they really got these huge pensions and he laughed saying it is actually much worse than I could have imagined. He said almost without exception, his clients all mysteriously got disabled in their last year of service and based upon the way they walk into his office not one of those is truly disabled. Not only do they collect these huge pensions but with a wink and a nod they go out on disability right before retiring so they can collect it all TAX FREE! Sorry I gotta go smack myself in the face with a 2X4.

Happy Halloween all….[/quote]

Firstly, I would very much doubt his “almost without exception” qualification. While I do know that some firefighters and cops retire on disabiliy, most do not. I believe it’s only a *portion* of their retirement benefits that are not taxed, but this might vary from one agency to another.

Also, I believe this policy comes from a time when the pensions were less generous, and it might have made sense then, but it admittedly cannot be justified under the 3% formula (90% of base salary after 30 years — contrary to popular myth, it does NOT include overtime).

In other words, we actually agree on this, sdr. Break open the champagne bottle.

[CA renter]

[quote=sdrealtor]If you were appalled before prepare yourself to get spitting nails mad. I just got back from trick or treating with my kids, their friends and a few dads. Two of the dad’s (not me) were discussing this very issue and I was not the one to bring it up but of course I jumped in. Here is where it gets outright infuriating. One of the guys is a local CPA. He has hundreds of tax clients. I asked him how many retired cops and fireman he had as clients and he figured it was about 15 to 20. I asked him if they really got these huge pensions and he laughed saying it is actually much worse than I could have imagined. He said almost without exception, his clients all mysteriously got disabled in their last year of service and based upon the way they walk into his office not one of those is truly disabled. Not only do they collect these huge pensions but with a wink and a nod they go out on disability right before retiring so they can collect it all TAX FREE! Sorry I gotta go smack myself in the face with a 2X4.

Happy Halloween all….[/quote]

Firstly, I would very much doubt his “almost without exception” qualification. While I do know that some firefighters and cops retire on disabiliy, most do not. I believe it’s only a *portion* of their retirement benefits that are not taxed, but this might vary from one agency to another.

Also, I believe this policy comes from a time when the pensions were less generous, and it might have made sense then, but it admittedly cannot be justified under the 3% formula (90% of base salary after 30 years — contrary to popular myth, it does NOT include overtime).

In other words, we actually agree on this, sdr. Break open the champagne bottle.

[CA renter]

[quote=sdrealtor]If you were appalled before prepare yourself to get spitting nails mad. I just got back from trick or treating with my kids, their friends and a few dads. Two of the dad’s (not me) were discussing this very issue and I was not the one to bring it up but of course I jumped in. Here is where it gets outright infuriating. One of the guys is a local CPA. He has hundreds of tax clients. I asked him how many retired cops and fireman he had as clients and he figured it was about 15 to 20. I asked him if they really got these huge pensions and he laughed saying it is actually much worse than I could have imagined. He said almost without exception, his clients all mysteriously got disabled in their last year of service and based upon the way they walk into his office not one of those is truly disabled. Not only do they collect these huge pensions but with a wink and a nod they go out on disability right before retiring so they can collect it all TAX FREE! Sorry I gotta go smack myself in the face with a 2X4.

Happy Halloween all….[/quote]

Firstly, I would very much doubt his “almost without exception” qualification. While I do know that some firefighters and cops retire on disabiliy, most do not. I believe it’s only a *portion* of their retirement benefits that are not taxed, but this might vary from one agency to another.

Also, I believe this policy comes from a time when the pensions were less generous, and it might have made sense then, but it admittedly cannot be justified under the 3% formula (90% of base salary after 30 years — contrary to popular myth, it does NOT include overtime).

In other words, we actually agree on this, sdr. Break open the champagne bottle.

[CA renter]

[quote=sdrealtor]If you were appalled before prepare yourself to get spitting nails mad. I just got back from trick or treating with my kids, their friends and a few dads. Two of the dad’s (not me) were discussing this very issue and I was not the one to bring it up but of course I jumped in. Here is where it gets outright infuriating. One of the guys is a local CPA. He has hundreds of tax clients. I asked him how many retired cops and fireman he had as clients and he figured it was about 15 to 20. I asked him if they really got these huge pensions and he laughed saying it is actually much worse than I could have imagined. He said almost without exception, his clients all mysteriously got disabled in their last year of service and based upon the way they walk into his office not one of those is truly disabled. Not only do they collect these huge pensions but with a wink and a nod they go out on disability right before retiring so they can collect it all TAX FREE! Sorry I gotta go smack myself in the face with a 2X4.

Happy Halloween all….[/quote]

Firstly, I would very much doubt his “almost without exception” qualification. While I do know that some firefighters and cops retire on disabiliy, most do not. I believe it’s only a *portion* of their retirement benefits that are not taxed, but this might vary from one agency to another.

Also, I believe this policy comes from a time when the pensions were less generous, and it might have made sense then, but it admittedly cannot be justified under the 3% formula (90% of base salary after 30 years — contrary to popular myth, it does NOT include overtime).

In other words, we actually agree on this, sdr. Break open the champagne bottle.

[Author]

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