OT: Public pay & benefits

[jpinpb]

[quote=peterb]When the public sector is compensated more than the private/profit sector, there’s an imbalance that must be corrected. Or your currency will start to lose value.[/quote]

There is much more involved in the currency losing value.

[CA renter]

[quote=sdrealtor]So I provided data and you came back with another strawman never acknowledging my “facts” looked accurate that firefighters make about 50% more than cops.

The problem with the earnings at the top argument is twofold. Those earning are the result of owning a large asset and these dollars are based upon corporate earnings not salaries. I dont begrudge successful business owners from earning whatever their business generates. Many of those folks on that list (names like Gates, Buffet, Walton and locally Jacobs) provide the philanthropic backbone of our country.

Second the article compares 2008 (where corporate earnings got clobbered) to 2009 (where they started to recover). What would those numbers look like behind 2008? I’m guessing they havent recovered to pre-recession numbers.

With all that said, still waiting for a response on why firefighters make so much more than cops?[/quote]

sdr,

Once again, I have no idea what you’re talking about WRT a “strawman argument” here.

The link you posted shows exactly that what I said was correct, and shows that your claim is wrong.

Firefighter I:

Min is $$39,166 and max is $47,112

Police Code Compliance Officer:

Min is $43,014 and max is $51,708

The cops make more.
——————

Fire Captain:

Min is $70,969 and max is $85,904

Police Captain:

Min is $117,644 and max is $140,899 (I believe they have more people under them.)

Again, the police captain makes more.
——————

The heirarchy is different between the two jobs, which makes it difficult to compare positions, so I’ll compare a fire captain to a detective:

Fire Captain:

Min is $70,969 and max is $85,904

Police Detective:

Min is $65,998 and max is $79,747

—————-

Nowhere did I see any evidence of firefighters making 50% more than cops. As I stated before, the pay is very similar.

Again, where are you getting your “facts” from?

Police:

http://lgcr.sco.ca.gov/CompensationDetail.aspx

Firefighters:

http://lgcr.sco.ca.gov/CompensationDetail.aspx
—————————

BTW, while you might think these “captains of industry” deserve everything they make, I don’t. IMHO, that “excess” money comes from their workers and their customers. Somebody is getting ripped off, and it’s not the high earners.

Additionally, much of the wealth generated by the top earners/wealthy wasn’t earned by work at all, but by gambling, speculation, and dealmaking.

….

“We also need to distinguish wealth from income. Income is what people earn from work, but also from dividends, interest, and any rents or royalties that are paid to them on properties they own. In theory, those who own a great deal of wealth may or may not have high incomes, depending on the returns they receive from their wealth, but in reality those at the very top of the wealth distribution usually have the most income. (But it’s important to note that for the rich, most of that income does not come from “working”: in 2008, only 19% of the income reported by the 13,480 individuals or families making over $10 million came from wages and salaries. See Norris, 2010, for more details.)“

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

[CA renter]

[quote=sdrealtor]So I provided data and you came back with another strawman never acknowledging my “facts” looked accurate that firefighters make about 50% more than cops.

The problem with the earnings at the top argument is twofold. Those earning are the result of owning a large asset and these dollars are based upon corporate earnings not salaries. I dont begrudge successful business owners from earning whatever their business generates. Many of those folks on that list (names like Gates, Buffet, Walton and locally Jacobs) provide the philanthropic backbone of our country.

Second the article compares 2008 (where corporate earnings got clobbered) to 2009 (where they started to recover). What would those numbers look like behind 2008? I’m guessing they havent recovered to pre-recession numbers.

With all that said, still waiting for a response on why firefighters make so much more than cops?[/quote]

sdr,

Once again, I have no idea what you’re talking about WRT a “strawman argument” here.

The link you posted shows exactly that what I said was correct, and shows that your claim is wrong.

Firefighter I:

Min is $$39,166 and max is $47,112

Police Code Compliance Officer:

Min is $43,014 and max is $51,708

The cops make more.
——————

Fire Captain:

Min is $70,969 and max is $85,904

Police Captain:

Min is $117,644 and max is $140,899 (I believe they have more people under them.)

Again, the police captain makes more.
——————

The heirarchy is different between the two jobs, which makes it difficult to compare positions, so I’ll compare a fire captain to a detective:

Fire Captain:

Min is $70,969 and max is $85,904

Police Detective:

Min is $65,998 and max is $79,747

—————-

Nowhere did I see any evidence of firefighters making 50% more than cops. As I stated before, the pay is very similar.

Again, where are you getting your “facts” from?

Police:

http://lgcr.sco.ca.gov/CompensationDetail.aspx

Firefighters:

http://lgcr.sco.ca.gov/CompensationDetail.aspx
—————————

BTW, while you might think these “captains of industry” deserve everything they make, I don’t. IMHO, that “excess” money comes from their workers and their customers. Somebody is getting ripped off, and it’s not the high earners.

Additionally, much of the wealth generated by the top earners/wealthy wasn’t earned by work at all, but by gambling, speculation, and dealmaking.

….

“We also need to distinguish wealth from income. Income is what people earn from work, but also from dividends, interest, and any rents or royalties that are paid to them on properties they own. In theory, those who own a great deal of wealth may or may not have high incomes, depending on the returns they receive from their wealth, but in reality those at the very top of the wealth distribution usually have the most income. (But it’s important to note that for the rich, most of that income does not come from “working”: in 2008, only 19% of the income reported by the 13,480 individuals or families making over $10 million came from wages and salaries. See Norris, 2010, for more details.)“

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

[CA renter]

[quote=sdrealtor]So I provided data and you came back with another strawman never acknowledging my “facts” looked accurate that firefighters make about 50% more than cops.

The problem with the earnings at the top argument is twofold. Those earning are the result of owning a large asset and these dollars are based upon corporate earnings not salaries. I dont begrudge successful business owners from earning whatever their business generates. Many of those folks on that list (names like Gates, Buffet, Walton and locally Jacobs) provide the philanthropic backbone of our country.

Second the article compares 2008 (where corporate earnings got clobbered) to 2009 (where they started to recover). What would those numbers look like behind 2008? I’m guessing they havent recovered to pre-recession numbers.

With all that said, still waiting for a response on why firefighters make so much more than cops?[/quote]

sdr,

Once again, I have no idea what you’re talking about WRT a “strawman argument” here.

The link you posted shows exactly that what I said was correct, and shows that your claim is wrong.

Firefighter I:

Min is $$39,166 and max is $47,112

Police Code Compliance Officer:

Min is $43,014 and max is $51,708

The cops make more.
——————

Fire Captain:

Min is $70,969 and max is $85,904

Police Captain:

Min is $117,644 and max is $140,899 (I believe they have more people under them.)

Again, the police captain makes more.
——————

The heirarchy is different between the two jobs, which makes it difficult to compare positions, so I’ll compare a fire captain to a detective:

Fire Captain:

Min is $70,969 and max is $85,904

Police Detective:

Min is $65,998 and max is $79,747

—————-

Nowhere did I see any evidence of firefighters making 50% more than cops. As I stated before, the pay is very similar.

Again, where are you getting your “facts” from?

Police:

http://lgcr.sco.ca.gov/CompensationDetail.aspx

Firefighters:

http://lgcr.sco.ca.gov/CompensationDetail.aspx
—————————

BTW, while you might think these “captains of industry” deserve everything they make, I don’t. IMHO, that “excess” money comes from their workers and their customers. Somebody is getting ripped off, and it’s not the high earners.

Additionally, much of the wealth generated by the top earners/wealthy wasn’t earned by work at all, but by gambling, speculation, and dealmaking.

….

“We also need to distinguish wealth from income. Income is what people earn from work, but also from dividends, interest, and any rents or royalties that are paid to them on properties they own. In theory, those who own a great deal of wealth may or may not have high incomes, depending on the returns they receive from their wealth, but in reality those at the very top of the wealth distribution usually have the most income. (But it’s important to note that for the rich, most of that income does not come from “working”: in 2008, only 19% of the income reported by the 13,480 individuals or families making over $10 million came from wages and salaries. See Norris, 2010, for more details.)“

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

[CA renter]

[quote=sdrealtor]So I provided data and you came back with another strawman never acknowledging my “facts” looked accurate that firefighters make about 50% more than cops.

The problem with the earnings at the top argument is twofold. Those earning are the result of owning a large asset and these dollars are based upon corporate earnings not salaries. I dont begrudge successful business owners from earning whatever their business generates. Many of those folks on that list (names like Gates, Buffet, Walton and locally Jacobs) provide the philanthropic backbone of our country.

Second the article compares 2008 (where corporate earnings got clobbered) to 2009 (where they started to recover). What would those numbers look like behind 2008? I’m guessing they havent recovered to pre-recession numbers.

With all that said, still waiting for a response on why firefighters make so much more than cops?[/quote]

sdr,

Once again, I have no idea what you’re talking about WRT a “strawman argument” here.

The link you posted shows exactly that what I said was correct, and shows that your claim is wrong.

Firefighter I:

Min is $$39,166 and max is $47,112

Police Code Compliance Officer:

Min is $43,014 and max is $51,708

The cops make more.
——————

Fire Captain:

Min is $70,969 and max is $85,904

Police Captain:

Min is $117,644 and max is $140,899 (I believe they have more people under them.)

Again, the police captain makes more.
——————

The heirarchy is different between the two jobs, which makes it difficult to compare positions, so I’ll compare a fire captain to a detective:

Fire Captain:

Min is $70,969 and max is $85,904

Police Detective:

Min is $65,998 and max is $79,747

—————-

Nowhere did I see any evidence of firefighters making 50% more than cops. As I stated before, the pay is very similar.

Again, where are you getting your “facts” from?

Police:

http://lgcr.sco.ca.gov/CompensationDetail.aspx

Firefighters:

http://lgcr.sco.ca.gov/CompensationDetail.aspx
—————————

BTW, while you might think these “captains of industry” deserve everything they make, I don’t. IMHO, that “excess” money comes from their workers and their customers. Somebody is getting ripped off, and it’s not the high earners.

Additionally, much of the wealth generated by the top earners/wealthy wasn’t earned by work at all, but by gambling, speculation, and dealmaking.

….

“We also need to distinguish wealth from income. Income is what people earn from work, but also from dividends, interest, and any rents or royalties that are paid to them on properties they own. In theory, those who own a great deal of wealth may or may not have high incomes, depending on the returns they receive from their wealth, but in reality those at the very top of the wealth distribution usually have the most income. (But it’s important to note that for the rich, most of that income does not come from “working”: in 2008, only 19% of the income reported by the 13,480 individuals or families making over $10 million came from wages and salaries. See Norris, 2010, for more details.)“

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

[CA renter]

[quote=sdrealtor]So I provided data and you came back with another strawman never acknowledging my “facts” looked accurate that firefighters make about 50% more than cops.

The problem with the earnings at the top argument is twofold. Those earning are the result of owning a large asset and these dollars are based upon corporate earnings not salaries. I dont begrudge successful business owners from earning whatever their business generates. Many of those folks on that list (names like Gates, Buffet, Walton and locally Jacobs) provide the philanthropic backbone of our country.

Second the article compares 2008 (where corporate earnings got clobbered) to 2009 (where they started to recover). What would those numbers look like behind 2008? I’m guessing they havent recovered to pre-recession numbers.

With all that said, still waiting for a response on why firefighters make so much more than cops?[/quote]

sdr,

Once again, I have no idea what you’re talking about WRT a “strawman argument” here.

The link you posted shows exactly that what I said was correct, and shows that your claim is wrong.

Firefighter I:

Min is $$39,166 and max is $47,112

Police Code Compliance Officer:

Min is $43,014 and max is $51,708

The cops make more.
——————

Fire Captain:

Min is $70,969 and max is $85,904

Police Captain:

Min is $117,644 and max is $140,899 (I believe they have more people under them.)

Again, the police captain makes more.
——————

The heirarchy is different between the two jobs, which makes it difficult to compare positions, so I’ll compare a fire captain to a detective:

Fire Captain:

Min is $70,969 and max is $85,904

Police Detective:

Min is $65,998 and max is $79,747

—————-

Nowhere did I see any evidence of firefighters making 50% more than cops. As I stated before, the pay is very similar.

Again, where are you getting your “facts” from?

Police:

http://lgcr.sco.ca.gov/CompensationDetail.aspx

Firefighters:

http://lgcr.sco.ca.gov/CompensationDetail.aspx
—————————

BTW, while you might think these “captains of industry” deserve everything they make, I don’t. IMHO, that “excess” money comes from their workers and their customers. Somebody is getting ripped off, and it’s not the high earners.

Additionally, much of the wealth generated by the top earners/wealthy wasn’t earned by work at all, but by gambling, speculation, and dealmaking.

….

“We also need to distinguish wealth from income. Income is what people earn from work, but also from dividends, interest, and any rents or royalties that are paid to them on properties they own. In theory, those who own a great deal of wealth may or may not have high incomes, depending on the returns they receive from their wealth, but in reality those at the very top of the wealth distribution usually have the most income. (But it’s important to note that for the rich, most of that income does not come from “working”: in 2008, only 19% of the income reported by the 13,480 individuals or families making over $10 million came from wages and salaries. See Norris, 2010, for more details.)“

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

[no_such_reality]

Still trotting that out CA Renter? The numbers are right in front of your own quoted site, it’s the next column that shows ACTUAL earnings.

Entries like this one are not uncommon.
Fire Department Fire Engineer Min $61,588 Max $74,464 Total 2009 Wages $104,087

17 of 26 Fire Fighter 1’s made more then their published “MAX” pay.

[no_such_reality]

Still trotting that out CA Renter? The numbers are right in front of your own quoted site, it’s the next column that shows ACTUAL earnings.

Entries like this one are not uncommon.
Fire Department Fire Engineer Min $61,588 Max $74,464 Total 2009 Wages $104,087

17 of 26 Fire Fighter 1’s made more then their published “MAX” pay.

[no_such_reality]

Still trotting that out CA Renter? The numbers are right in front of your own quoted site, it’s the next column that shows ACTUAL earnings.

Entries like this one are not uncommon.
Fire Department Fire Engineer Min $61,588 Max $74,464 Total 2009 Wages $104,087

17 of 26 Fire Fighter 1’s made more then their published “MAX” pay.

[no_such_reality]

Still trotting that out CA Renter? The numbers are right in front of your own quoted site, it’s the next column that shows ACTUAL earnings.

Entries like this one are not uncommon.
Fire Department Fire Engineer Min $61,588 Max $74,464 Total 2009 Wages $104,087

17 of 26 Fire Fighter 1’s made more then their published “MAX” pay.

[no_such_reality]

Still trotting that out CA Renter? The numbers are right in front of your own quoted site, it’s the next column that shows ACTUAL earnings.

Entries like this one are not uncommon.
Fire Department Fire Engineer Min $61,588 Max $74,464 Total 2009 Wages $104,087

17 of 26 Fire Fighter 1’s made more then their published “MAX” pay.

[sdrealtor]

Thank you NSR! CAR you are quoted posted salary ranges not ACTUAL EARNINGS. My facts are facts showing what they took home while yours are the myth of salary ranges.

A corrollary would be for you to post the salaries of the “captains of industry” which no doubt are a very small fraction of the income of the top wage earnings. Speculation as you call it is the foundation of capitalism. Coming up with an idea and building a company around it. Without that we wouldnt have any of the technological advances that support are quality of life.

Much of this income also comes from owning vast real estate holdings. Are you saying that someone who owns hundreds of apartment buildings should just let people live in them for free like the deadbeats you criticize for not paying their mortgages so the owners of those buildings dont make too much money from the rent they are entitled to?

[sdrealtor]

Thank you NSR! CAR you are quoted posted salary ranges not ACTUAL EARNINGS. My facts are facts showing what they took home while yours are the myth of salary ranges.

A corrollary would be for you to post the salaries of the “captains of industry” which no doubt are a very small fraction of the income of the top wage earnings. Speculation as you call it is the foundation of capitalism. Coming up with an idea and building a company around it. Without that we wouldnt have any of the technological advances that support are quality of life.

Much of this income also comes from owning vast real estate holdings. Are you saying that someone who owns hundreds of apartment buildings should just let people live in them for free like the deadbeats you criticize for not paying their mortgages so the owners of those buildings dont make too much money from the rent they are entitled to?

[sdrealtor]

Thank you NSR! CAR you are quoted posted salary ranges not ACTUAL EARNINGS. My facts are facts showing what they took home while yours are the myth of salary ranges.

A corrollary would be for you to post the salaries of the “captains of industry” which no doubt are a very small fraction of the income of the top wage earnings. Speculation as you call it is the foundation of capitalism. Coming up with an idea and building a company around it. Without that we wouldnt have any of the technological advances that support are quality of life.

Much of this income also comes from owning vast real estate holdings. Are you saying that someone who owns hundreds of apartment buildings should just let people live in them for free like the deadbeats you criticize for not paying their mortgages so the owners of those buildings dont make too much money from the rent they are entitled to?

[sdrealtor]

Thank you NSR! CAR you are quoted posted salary ranges not ACTUAL EARNINGS. My facts are facts showing what they took home while yours are the myth of salary ranges.

A corrollary would be for you to post the salaries of the “captains of industry” which no doubt are a very small fraction of the income of the top wage earnings. Speculation as you call it is the foundation of capitalism. Coming up with an idea and building a company around it. Without that we wouldnt have any of the technological advances that support are quality of life.

Much of this income also comes from owning vast real estate holdings. Are you saying that someone who owns hundreds of apartment buildings should just let people live in them for free like the deadbeats you criticize for not paying their mortgages so the owners of those buildings dont make too much money from the rent they are entitled to?

[Author]

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