OT: Public pay & benefits

[scaredyclassic]

because dead people have lower expenses?

sorry. joke.

i am sure everyone, including myself, who worries about this topic, is really dealing with issues of death, aging, fear of incapacity, disconnection from children, relatives, feelings of isolation, loneliness, poverty, change.

i need a therapist.

[sdrealtor]

NJ is probably as bad or worse with the unions though I dont know that they have the overtime issue we see here. The point of my sarcastic remark was that if people sitting in some miserable overcrowded, poluted town with lousy weather knew there was an opportunity to be a firefighter with the wages and benefits enjoyed out here while living in a place live Carlsbad the line for that job would be a million people long and that is not an exageration.

The forces of supply and demand are way out of whack!

[sdrealtor]

NJ is probably as bad or worse with the unions though I dont know that they have the overtime issue we see here. The point of my sarcastic remark was that if people sitting in some miserable overcrowded, poluted town with lousy weather knew there was an opportunity to be a firefighter with the wages and benefits enjoyed out here while living in a place live Carlsbad the line for that job would be a million people long and that is not an exageration.

The forces of supply and demand are way out of whack!

[sdrealtor]

NJ is probably as bad or worse with the unions though I dont know that they have the overtime issue we see here. The point of my sarcastic remark was that if people sitting in some miserable overcrowded, poluted town with lousy weather knew there was an opportunity to be a firefighter with the wages and benefits enjoyed out here while living in a place live Carlsbad the line for that job would be a million people long and that is not an exageration.

The forces of supply and demand are way out of whack!

[sdrealtor]

NJ is probably as bad or worse with the unions though I dont know that they have the overtime issue we see here. The point of my sarcastic remark was that if people sitting in some miserable overcrowded, poluted town with lousy weather knew there was an opportunity to be a firefighter with the wages and benefits enjoyed out here while living in a place live Carlsbad the line for that job would be a million people long and that is not an exageration.

The forces of supply and demand are way out of whack!

[sdrealtor]

NJ is probably as bad or worse with the unions though I dont know that they have the overtime issue we see here. The point of my sarcastic remark was that if people sitting in some miserable overcrowded, poluted town with lousy weather knew there was an opportunity to be a firefighter with the wages and benefits enjoyed out here while living in a place live Carlsbad the line for that job would be a million people long and that is not an exageration.

The forces of supply and demand are way out of whack!

[jstoesz]

To be honest, I have been contemplating for years getting out of this crap hole of engineering and becoming a firehouse medic, or fireman. I just can not summon the courage to throw my engineering degree away. Getting locked into a career path can be so crippling.

I just think to myself, I could be making almost as much (with overtime of coarse) as I make now, and still be able to take off the random week here and there. I would never have to go blind staring at a computer screen again! Plus I get disability for any minor injury I incur, for as long as I am “down.”

CAR, I think you are pushing me over the edge. Maybe I will try and climb aboard the gravy train like so many of my friends. Hopefully I will not be heading for the last stop…

I am at least somewhat serious here. I looks like a really great job.

[jstoesz]

To be honest, I have been contemplating for years getting out of this crap hole of engineering and becoming a firehouse medic, or fireman. I just can not summon the courage to throw my engineering degree away. Getting locked into a career path can be so crippling.

I just think to myself, I could be making almost as much (with overtime of coarse) as I make now, and still be able to take off the random week here and there. I would never have to go blind staring at a computer screen again! Plus I get disability for any minor injury I incur, for as long as I am “down.”

CAR, I think you are pushing me over the edge. Maybe I will try and climb aboard the gravy train like so many of my friends. Hopefully I will not be heading for the last stop…

I am at least somewhat serious here. I looks like a really great job.

[jstoesz]

To be honest, I have been contemplating for years getting out of this crap hole of engineering and becoming a firehouse medic, or fireman. I just can not summon the courage to throw my engineering degree away. Getting locked into a career path can be so crippling.

I just think to myself, I could be making almost as much (with overtime of coarse) as I make now, and still be able to take off the random week here and there. I would never have to go blind staring at a computer screen again! Plus I get disability for any minor injury I incur, for as long as I am “down.”

CAR, I think you are pushing me over the edge. Maybe I will try and climb aboard the gravy train like so many of my friends. Hopefully I will not be heading for the last stop…

I am at least somewhat serious here. I looks like a really great job.

[jstoesz]

To be honest, I have been contemplating for years getting out of this crap hole of engineering and becoming a firehouse medic, or fireman. I just can not summon the courage to throw my engineering degree away. Getting locked into a career path can be so crippling.

I just think to myself, I could be making almost as much (with overtime of coarse) as I make now, and still be able to take off the random week here and there. I would never have to go blind staring at a computer screen again! Plus I get disability for any minor injury I incur, for as long as I am “down.”

CAR, I think you are pushing me over the edge. Maybe I will try and climb aboard the gravy train like so many of my friends. Hopefully I will not be heading for the last stop…

I am at least somewhat serious here. I looks like a really great job.

[jstoesz]

To be honest, I have been contemplating for years getting out of this crap hole of engineering and becoming a firehouse medic, or fireman. I just can not summon the courage to throw my engineering degree away. Getting locked into a career path can be so crippling.

I just think to myself, I could be making almost as much (with overtime of coarse) as I make now, and still be able to take off the random week here and there. I would never have to go blind staring at a computer screen again! Plus I get disability for any minor injury I incur, for as long as I am “down.”

CAR, I think you are pushing me over the edge. Maybe I will try and climb aboard the gravy train like so many of my friends. Hopefully I will not be heading for the last stop…

I am at least somewhat serious here. I looks like a really great job.

[Coronita]

[quote=CA renter][quote=pabloesqobar]You can’t compare military pay to local police/fire pay. The locals aren’t dodging bullets and running over landmines in Afghanistan. The local police/fire have procedures and Unions that generally prohibit them from getting in harms way. Most cops never fire their weapon in their career. All of the arguments made about how “dangerous” and arduous firefighters and cops jobs are acknowledged in this thread. It still doesn’t justify the pay they receive. Ignoring the salary, it’s the enormous pensions that seems to be the concern, and which I agree are too large given the job they perform and income they receive.[/quote]

I won’t disagree at all about the pensions, and have repeated this over and over, again. The problem is that older firefighters who are contractually guaranteed to get that pension have made financial plans based on those numbers, like buying a house, contributing less to other retirement investments, etc. Not saying that these decisions are good or bad, but that anyone else here who had those contracts would have done the same thing, especially when they were told repeatedly that the pension plans were “superfunded” (overfunded).
———–

Government Code Section 20816 provides that, if the Chief Actuary determines that an
employer’s rate plan is superfunded (actuarial value of assets exceeds the present
value of benefits) as of the most recently completed valuation, the employer may cover
their employees’ normal member contributions (defined as required member
contributions) using their employer assets. This would necessitate transferring assets
within the Public Employees’ Retirement Fund (PERF) from the employer account to the
member accumulated contribution accounts.
Our Actuarial Office has identified your agency as having a superfunded rate plan(s) for
the rate plan year of July 1, 2007 through June 30, 2008, based on the actuarial
valuation as of June 30, 2005.
We urge you to contact your CalPERS’ actuary to discuss what may happen to
your rates before you decide to use the vouchers to pay normal member
contributions.

http://www.calpers.ca.gov/eip-docs/employer/cir-ltrs/2007/200-028-07-w-attachments.pdf
————–

Let’s say your employer, as part of your contract negotiations in 1999, offered you some kind of deferred benefit, like a pension. Let’s say that you opted to accept that benefit in lieu of higher pay or some other benefit. If you accepted it, would you not get a bit upset if 10-20 years down the road, they decided that they “couldn’t afford” it and now want to reduce it, or do away with it altogether?

Let’s say that you knew they could not technically go bankrupt or default on your contract; would you hold their feet to the fire, especially if you had run your finances in a different way than you would have if you had known this benefit wouldn’t be there when it was time to pay up?

How would you feel if people who were “watchdogs” in your industry went around to the media trying to portray you (the employees) as “lazy, greedy thugs” just because you expect your employer to abide by the contract? What if they tried to rile up the masses so that the masses (who have no understanding of your business, or what your agreements/contract were, don’t know what caused the “crisis,” or who don’t understand that the managers were the ones who caused your company to fail) started spewing vitriol and hateful lies about you on all kinds of internet blogs and in the media…to the point that it became part of the national discourse?

How would you feel?[/quote]

Like i said…Talk to any UAL pilot… The pensions were revised to save the company. Sometimes getting less than promised is still > getting nothing…Would it be better for our cities/state to file for BK?

Personally, I’m not too worried…Because there’s no question that either

1) We’re going to be pay a hell of lot more taxes in the short term, which will accelerate driving businesses out of CA/san diego…

or

2) Our city/states will file for BK… And as a result, contracts will be redone. At that point there will be no choice. Either get something less than promised OR get $0….It sucks for people that counted on a guarantee. But in life, there are no guarantees…

I don’t see why folks who are sitting on these pensions haven’t realized this yet…It has happened so many times in history, airline, auto workers,etc. Make no mistake, it’s going to happen again. Either negotiated ahead of time or in court.

[Coronita]

[quote=CA renter][quote=pabloesqobar]You can’t compare military pay to local police/fire pay. The locals aren’t dodging bullets and running over landmines in Afghanistan. The local police/fire have procedures and Unions that generally prohibit them from getting in harms way. Most cops never fire their weapon in their career. All of the arguments made about how “dangerous” and arduous firefighters and cops jobs are acknowledged in this thread. It still doesn’t justify the pay they receive. Ignoring the salary, it’s the enormous pensions that seems to be the concern, and which I agree are too large given the job they perform and income they receive.[/quote]

I won’t disagree at all about the pensions, and have repeated this over and over, again. The problem is that older firefighters who are contractually guaranteed to get that pension have made financial plans based on those numbers, like buying a house, contributing less to other retirement investments, etc. Not saying that these decisions are good or bad, but that anyone else here who had those contracts would have done the same thing, especially when they were told repeatedly that the pension plans were “superfunded” (overfunded).
———–

Government Code Section 20816 provides that, if the Chief Actuary determines that an
employer’s rate plan is superfunded (actuarial value of assets exceeds the present
value of benefits) as of the most recently completed valuation, the employer may cover
their employees’ normal member contributions (defined as required member
contributions) using their employer assets. This would necessitate transferring assets
within the Public Employees’ Retirement Fund (PERF) from the employer account to the
member accumulated contribution accounts.
Our Actuarial Office has identified your agency as having a superfunded rate plan(s) for
the rate plan year of July 1, 2007 through June 30, 2008, based on the actuarial
valuation as of June 30, 2005.
We urge you to contact your CalPERS’ actuary to discuss what may happen to
your rates before you decide to use the vouchers to pay normal member
contributions.

http://www.calpers.ca.gov/eip-docs/employer/cir-ltrs/2007/200-028-07-w-attachments.pdf
————–

Let’s say your employer, as part of your contract negotiations in 1999, offered you some kind of deferred benefit, like a pension. Let’s say that you opted to accept that benefit in lieu of higher pay or some other benefit. If you accepted it, would you not get a bit upset if 10-20 years down the road, they decided that they “couldn’t afford” it and now want to reduce it, or do away with it altogether?

Let’s say that you knew they could not technically go bankrupt or default on your contract; would you hold their feet to the fire, especially if you had run your finances in a different way than you would have if you had known this benefit wouldn’t be there when it was time to pay up?

How would you feel if people who were “watchdogs” in your industry went around to the media trying to portray you (the employees) as “lazy, greedy thugs” just because you expect your employer to abide by the contract? What if they tried to rile up the masses so that the masses (who have no understanding of your business, or what your agreements/contract were, don’t know what caused the “crisis,” or who don’t understand that the managers were the ones who caused your company to fail) started spewing vitriol and hateful lies about you on all kinds of internet blogs and in the media…to the point that it became part of the national discourse?

How would you feel?[/quote]

Like i said…Talk to any UAL pilot… The pensions were revised to save the company. Sometimes getting less than promised is still > getting nothing…Would it be better for our cities/state to file for BK?

Personally, I’m not too worried…Because there’s no question that either

1) We’re going to be pay a hell of lot more taxes in the short term, which will accelerate driving businesses out of CA/san diego…

or

2) Our city/states will file for BK… And as a result, contracts will be redone. At that point there will be no choice. Either get something less than promised OR get $0….It sucks for people that counted on a guarantee. But in life, there are no guarantees…

I don’t see why folks who are sitting on these pensions haven’t realized this yet…It has happened so many times in history, airline, auto workers,etc. Make no mistake, it’s going to happen again. Either negotiated ahead of time or in court.

[Coronita]

[quote=CA renter][quote=pabloesqobar]You can’t compare military pay to local police/fire pay. The locals aren’t dodging bullets and running over landmines in Afghanistan. The local police/fire have procedures and Unions that generally prohibit them from getting in harms way. Most cops never fire their weapon in their career. All of the arguments made about how “dangerous” and arduous firefighters and cops jobs are acknowledged in this thread. It still doesn’t justify the pay they receive. Ignoring the salary, it’s the enormous pensions that seems to be the concern, and which I agree are too large given the job they perform and income they receive.[/quote]

I won’t disagree at all about the pensions, and have repeated this over and over, again. The problem is that older firefighters who are contractually guaranteed to get that pension have made financial plans based on those numbers, like buying a house, contributing less to other retirement investments, etc. Not saying that these decisions are good or bad, but that anyone else here who had those contracts would have done the same thing, especially when they were told repeatedly that the pension plans were “superfunded” (overfunded).
———–

Government Code Section 20816 provides that, if the Chief Actuary determines that an
employer’s rate plan is superfunded (actuarial value of assets exceeds the present
value of benefits) as of the most recently completed valuation, the employer may cover
their employees’ normal member contributions (defined as required member
contributions) using their employer assets. This would necessitate transferring assets
within the Public Employees’ Retirement Fund (PERF) from the employer account to the
member accumulated contribution accounts.
Our Actuarial Office has identified your agency as having a superfunded rate plan(s) for
the rate plan year of July 1, 2007 through June 30, 2008, based on the actuarial
valuation as of June 30, 2005.
We urge you to contact your CalPERS’ actuary to discuss what may happen to
your rates before you decide to use the vouchers to pay normal member
contributions.

http://www.calpers.ca.gov/eip-docs/employer/cir-ltrs/2007/200-028-07-w-attachments.pdf
————–

Let’s say your employer, as part of your contract negotiations in 1999, offered you some kind of deferred benefit, like a pension. Let’s say that you opted to accept that benefit in lieu of higher pay or some other benefit. If you accepted it, would you not get a bit upset if 10-20 years down the road, they decided that they “couldn’t afford” it and now want to reduce it, or do away with it altogether?

Let’s say that you knew they could not technically go bankrupt or default on your contract; would you hold their feet to the fire, especially if you had run your finances in a different way than you would have if you had known this benefit wouldn’t be there when it was time to pay up?

How would you feel if people who were “watchdogs” in your industry went around to the media trying to portray you (the employees) as “lazy, greedy thugs” just because you expect your employer to abide by the contract? What if they tried to rile up the masses so that the masses (who have no understanding of your business, or what your agreements/contract were, don’t know what caused the “crisis,” or who don’t understand that the managers were the ones who caused your company to fail) started spewing vitriol and hateful lies about you on all kinds of internet blogs and in the media…to the point that it became part of the national discourse?

How would you feel?[/quote]

Like i said…Talk to any UAL pilot… The pensions were revised to save the company. Sometimes getting less than promised is still > getting nothing…Would it be better for our cities/state to file for BK?

Personally, I’m not too worried…Because there’s no question that either

1) We’re going to be pay a hell of lot more taxes in the short term, which will accelerate driving businesses out of CA/san diego…

or

2) Our city/states will file for BK… And as a result, contracts will be redone. At that point there will be no choice. Either get something less than promised OR get $0….It sucks for people that counted on a guarantee. But in life, there are no guarantees…

I don’t see why folks who are sitting on these pensions haven’t realized this yet…It has happened so many times in history, airline, auto workers,etc. Make no mistake, it’s going to happen again. Either negotiated ahead of time or in court.

[Coronita]

[quote=CA renter][quote=pabloesqobar]You can’t compare military pay to local police/fire pay. The locals aren’t dodging bullets and running over landmines in Afghanistan. The local police/fire have procedures and Unions that generally prohibit them from getting in harms way. Most cops never fire their weapon in their career. All of the arguments made about how “dangerous” and arduous firefighters and cops jobs are acknowledged in this thread. It still doesn’t justify the pay they receive. Ignoring the salary, it’s the enormous pensions that seems to be the concern, and which I agree are too large given the job they perform and income they receive.[/quote]

I won’t disagree at all about the pensions, and have repeated this over and over, again. The problem is that older firefighters who are contractually guaranteed to get that pension have made financial plans based on those numbers, like buying a house, contributing less to other retirement investments, etc. Not saying that these decisions are good or bad, but that anyone else here who had those contracts would have done the same thing, especially when they were told repeatedly that the pension plans were “superfunded” (overfunded).
———–

Government Code Section 20816 provides that, if the Chief Actuary determines that an
employer’s rate plan is superfunded (actuarial value of assets exceeds the present
value of benefits) as of the most recently completed valuation, the employer may cover
their employees’ normal member contributions (defined as required member
contributions) using their employer assets. This would necessitate transferring assets
within the Public Employees’ Retirement Fund (PERF) from the employer account to the
member accumulated contribution accounts.
Our Actuarial Office has identified your agency as having a superfunded rate plan(s) for
the rate plan year of July 1, 2007 through June 30, 2008, based on the actuarial
valuation as of June 30, 2005.
We urge you to contact your CalPERS’ actuary to discuss what may happen to
your rates before you decide to use the vouchers to pay normal member
contributions.

http://www.calpers.ca.gov/eip-docs/employer/cir-ltrs/2007/200-028-07-w-attachments.pdf
————–

Let’s say your employer, as part of your contract negotiations in 1999, offered you some kind of deferred benefit, like a pension. Let’s say that you opted to accept that benefit in lieu of higher pay or some other benefit. If you accepted it, would you not get a bit upset if 10-20 years down the road, they decided that they “couldn’t afford” it and now want to reduce it, or do away with it altogether?

Let’s say that you knew they could not technically go bankrupt or default on your contract; would you hold their feet to the fire, especially if you had run your finances in a different way than you would have if you had known this benefit wouldn’t be there when it was time to pay up?

How would you feel if people who were “watchdogs” in your industry went around to the media trying to portray you (the employees) as “lazy, greedy thugs” just because you expect your employer to abide by the contract? What if they tried to rile up the masses so that the masses (who have no understanding of your business, or what your agreements/contract were, don’t know what caused the “crisis,” or who don’t understand that the managers were the ones who caused your company to fail) started spewing vitriol and hateful lies about you on all kinds of internet blogs and in the media…to the point that it became part of the national discourse?

How would you feel?[/quote]

Like i said…Talk to any UAL pilot… The pensions were revised to save the company. Sometimes getting less than promised is still > getting nothing…Would it be better for our cities/state to file for BK?

Personally, I’m not too worried…Because there’s no question that either

1) We’re going to be pay a hell of lot more taxes in the short term, which will accelerate driving businesses out of CA/san diego…

or

2) Our city/states will file for BK… And as a result, contracts will be redone. At that point there will be no choice. Either get something less than promised OR get $0….It sucks for people that counted on a guarantee. But in life, there are no guarantees…

I don’t see why folks who are sitting on these pensions haven’t realized this yet…It has happened so many times in history, airline, auto workers,etc. Make no mistake, it’s going to happen again. Either negotiated ahead of time or in court.

[Author]

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