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October 6, 2010 at 6:18 PM #614611October 6, 2010 at 6:19 PM #613554AnonymousGuest
[quote=CA renter]I would gladly pay more in taxes to get the benefits that people in “socialist” countries get.[/quote]
How much do city firefighters in Sweden make?
How effective are their emergency services vs. ours?
I honestly don’t know the answer, but I’m guessing they make much less than those in the US and still do a fine job.
You are confounding two different questions:
1) What services should be provided by government vs. the private sector?
2) What is the right compensation for those providing government services?
In many cases it is optimal for government to be the provider – emergency services are certainly a good example of this. But it still needs to be done at a fair price.
Even if “socialism” is the best solution for some needs, the system will fail if the public pays too much for what it gets. Here in CA, the system is definitely failing.
October 6, 2010 at 6:19 PM #613642AnonymousGuest[quote=CA renter]I would gladly pay more in taxes to get the benefits that people in “socialist” countries get.[/quote]
How much do city firefighters in Sweden make?
How effective are their emergency services vs. ours?
I honestly don’t know the answer, but I’m guessing they make much less than those in the US and still do a fine job.
You are confounding two different questions:
1) What services should be provided by government vs. the private sector?
2) What is the right compensation for those providing government services?
In many cases it is optimal for government to be the provider – emergency services are certainly a good example of this. But it still needs to be done at a fair price.
Even if “socialism” is the best solution for some needs, the system will fail if the public pays too much for what it gets. Here in CA, the system is definitely failing.
October 6, 2010 at 6:19 PM #614187AnonymousGuest[quote=CA renter]I would gladly pay more in taxes to get the benefits that people in “socialist” countries get.[/quote]
How much do city firefighters in Sweden make?
How effective are their emergency services vs. ours?
I honestly don’t know the answer, but I’m guessing they make much less than those in the US and still do a fine job.
You are confounding two different questions:
1) What services should be provided by government vs. the private sector?
2) What is the right compensation for those providing government services?
In many cases it is optimal for government to be the provider – emergency services are certainly a good example of this. But it still needs to be done at a fair price.
Even if “socialism” is the best solution for some needs, the system will fail if the public pays too much for what it gets. Here in CA, the system is definitely failing.
October 6, 2010 at 6:19 PM #614302AnonymousGuest[quote=CA renter]I would gladly pay more in taxes to get the benefits that people in “socialist” countries get.[/quote]
How much do city firefighters in Sweden make?
How effective are their emergency services vs. ours?
I honestly don’t know the answer, but I’m guessing they make much less than those in the US and still do a fine job.
You are confounding two different questions:
1) What services should be provided by government vs. the private sector?
2) What is the right compensation for those providing government services?
In many cases it is optimal for government to be the provider – emergency services are certainly a good example of this. But it still needs to be done at a fair price.
Even if “socialism” is the best solution for some needs, the system will fail if the public pays too much for what it gets. Here in CA, the system is definitely failing.
October 6, 2010 at 6:19 PM #614616AnonymousGuest[quote=CA renter]I would gladly pay more in taxes to get the benefits that people in “socialist” countries get.[/quote]
How much do city firefighters in Sweden make?
How effective are their emergency services vs. ours?
I honestly don’t know the answer, but I’m guessing they make much less than those in the US and still do a fine job.
You are confounding two different questions:
1) What services should be provided by government vs. the private sector?
2) What is the right compensation for those providing government services?
In many cases it is optimal for government to be the provider – emergency services are certainly a good example of this. But it still needs to be done at a fair price.
Even if “socialism” is the best solution for some needs, the system will fail if the public pays too much for what it gets. Here in CA, the system is definitely failing.
October 6, 2010 at 6:23 PM #613564AnonymousGuest[quote=CA renter]**they are in the process of changing this.** [/quote]
Do you have some references to support this?
All evidence I’ve seen lately has been to the contrary.
October 6, 2010 at 6:23 PM #613652AnonymousGuest[quote=CA renter]**they are in the process of changing this.** [/quote]
Do you have some references to support this?
All evidence I’ve seen lately has been to the contrary.
October 6, 2010 at 6:23 PM #614197AnonymousGuest[quote=CA renter]**they are in the process of changing this.** [/quote]
Do you have some references to support this?
All evidence I’ve seen lately has been to the contrary.
October 6, 2010 at 6:23 PM #614312AnonymousGuest[quote=CA renter]**they are in the process of changing this.** [/quote]
Do you have some references to support this?
All evidence I’ve seen lately has been to the contrary.
October 6, 2010 at 6:23 PM #614625AnonymousGuest[quote=CA renter]**they are in the process of changing this.** [/quote]
Do you have some references to support this?
All evidence I’ve seen lately has been to the contrary.
October 6, 2010 at 6:48 PM #613585CA renterParticipant[quote=pri_dk][quote=CA renter]**they are in the process of changing this.** [/quote]
Do you have some references to support this?
All evidence I’ve seen lately has been to the contrary.[/quote]
Not sure where you’re getting your information, but public employees have been getting pay cuts, furloughs, benefit reductions, and many are contributing more to their pensions.
Here’s what I think is going to happen, in general:
1. At some point (might be later, rather than sooner), the pension boost enacted by Gray Davis will be repealed, at least for people hired after a certain date, which may include existing personnel, and will most certainly include new hires.
2. The pension contributions are being shifted from the employers to the employees. Many departments have already done this, and more are in process.
3. After the contribution requirements have shifted, I believe CalPERS will change their formulas WRT contribution amounts, going from highly optimistic return assumptions (7-9%, historically) to finally acknowledging their losses and accounting for that in the new formulas (perhaps a <3%> return or??).
4. If they change their formulas, the employees will have to contribute a much larger portion of their pay to CalPERS, my guess is it might end up being 20-35% of their pay. Any caps regarding contribution limits will be lifted, IMHO.
In other words, public employees will probably be paying a lot more for their much reduced retirement benefits. I think they can work around any existing laws WRT “not being able to take away existing benefits” this way.
We will see.
BTW, here is a link to some info on new trends:
October 6, 2010 at 6:48 PM #613672CA renterParticipant[quote=pri_dk][quote=CA renter]**they are in the process of changing this.** [/quote]
Do you have some references to support this?
All evidence I’ve seen lately has been to the contrary.[/quote]
Not sure where you’re getting your information, but public employees have been getting pay cuts, furloughs, benefit reductions, and many are contributing more to their pensions.
Here’s what I think is going to happen, in general:
1. At some point (might be later, rather than sooner), the pension boost enacted by Gray Davis will be repealed, at least for people hired after a certain date, which may include existing personnel, and will most certainly include new hires.
2. The pension contributions are being shifted from the employers to the employees. Many departments have already done this, and more are in process.
3. After the contribution requirements have shifted, I believe CalPERS will change their formulas WRT contribution amounts, going from highly optimistic return assumptions (7-9%, historically) to finally acknowledging their losses and accounting for that in the new formulas (perhaps a <3%> return or??).
4. If they change their formulas, the employees will have to contribute a much larger portion of their pay to CalPERS, my guess is it might end up being 20-35% of their pay. Any caps regarding contribution limits will be lifted, IMHO.
In other words, public employees will probably be paying a lot more for their much reduced retirement benefits. I think they can work around any existing laws WRT “not being able to take away existing benefits” this way.
We will see.
BTW, here is a link to some info on new trends:
October 6, 2010 at 6:48 PM #614216CA renterParticipant[quote=pri_dk][quote=CA renter]**they are in the process of changing this.** [/quote]
Do you have some references to support this?
All evidence I’ve seen lately has been to the contrary.[/quote]
Not sure where you’re getting your information, but public employees have been getting pay cuts, furloughs, benefit reductions, and many are contributing more to their pensions.
Here’s what I think is going to happen, in general:
1. At some point (might be later, rather than sooner), the pension boost enacted by Gray Davis will be repealed, at least for people hired after a certain date, which may include existing personnel, and will most certainly include new hires.
2. The pension contributions are being shifted from the employers to the employees. Many departments have already done this, and more are in process.
3. After the contribution requirements have shifted, I believe CalPERS will change their formulas WRT contribution amounts, going from highly optimistic return assumptions (7-9%, historically) to finally acknowledging their losses and accounting for that in the new formulas (perhaps a <3%> return or??).
4. If they change their formulas, the employees will have to contribute a much larger portion of their pay to CalPERS, my guess is it might end up being 20-35% of their pay. Any caps regarding contribution limits will be lifted, IMHO.
In other words, public employees will probably be paying a lot more for their much reduced retirement benefits. I think they can work around any existing laws WRT “not being able to take away existing benefits” this way.
We will see.
BTW, here is a link to some info on new trends:
October 6, 2010 at 6:48 PM #614331CA renterParticipant[quote=pri_dk][quote=CA renter]**they are in the process of changing this.** [/quote]
Do you have some references to support this?
All evidence I’ve seen lately has been to the contrary.[/quote]
Not sure where you’re getting your information, but public employees have been getting pay cuts, furloughs, benefit reductions, and many are contributing more to their pensions.
Here’s what I think is going to happen, in general:
1. At some point (might be later, rather than sooner), the pension boost enacted by Gray Davis will be repealed, at least for people hired after a certain date, which may include existing personnel, and will most certainly include new hires.
2. The pension contributions are being shifted from the employers to the employees. Many departments have already done this, and more are in process.
3. After the contribution requirements have shifted, I believe CalPERS will change their formulas WRT contribution amounts, going from highly optimistic return assumptions (7-9%, historically) to finally acknowledging their losses and accounting for that in the new formulas (perhaps a <3%> return or??).
4. If they change their formulas, the employees will have to contribute a much larger portion of their pay to CalPERS, my guess is it might end up being 20-35% of their pay. Any caps regarding contribution limits will be lifted, IMHO.
In other words, public employees will probably be paying a lot more for their much reduced retirement benefits. I think they can work around any existing laws WRT “not being able to take away existing benefits” this way.
We will see.
BTW, here is a link to some info on new trends:
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