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NotCranky.
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September 4, 2013 at 11:14 AM #765118September 4, 2013 at 11:21 AM #765122
SK in CV
Participant[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=SD Realtor]
What it will do is make some of our allies like Saudi Arabia happy, and further galvanize enemies of the US in the middle east against us and against Isreal.
[/quote]Why the fixation with Israel?
We need to worry about our own long term interest and let Israel worry about Israel. That’s how peace will be achieved in the region.[/quote]
There would be absolutely nothing beneficial to Israel if the US deploys military force in Syria right now. Though I think SDR is correct, he could have left the last few words off and it doesn’t change anything. There is little upside to US involvement and plenty of downside. There is a civil war going on in Syria. More people will die. Whether by conventional weapons or chemical weapons, in the end, they’re still dead.
(I do find it interesting that you singled out Israel as not being worthy of US concern, yet didn’t mention Saudi Arabia, even though SDR lead his comment with SA.)
September 4, 2013 at 12:26 PM #765123FlyerInHi
GuestI singled out Israel because proportionately Israel gets way more support from us. Even Kerry mentions Israel all the time as if we owe it to them.
We are the enablers of Israel. Without us Israel would have to rethink its survival in the region and make peace with its neighbors.
Saudi Arabia is a big country has has plenty if money.
My opinion is that the arc of history bends towards justice and democracy. We just need to support the democratic evolvement of the Middle East and let the chips fall where they may. We need to build our image with the population as fair arbiters. In the long run that would serve us well. If Israel is diminished and the Jewish state is no longer just Jewish because of the Arab population, and if the royal Saudi family falls, then so be it.
We have plenty of natural gas, oil here, oil in Canada and Mexico, solar, nuclear, renewables. We don’t need Middle East oil.
Who cares if Iran wants to be the regional power. Make friends with them like Nixon made friends with China. Taiwan is fine now and Israel will be fine.
I know my position is not the prevailing opinion in America and in the West. But as long as the Muslim population is not with us then we will continually be drawn into wars.
I actually believe Rand Paul’s position is a welcomed development in American politics. If the Tea party would lose the Israel religious elements, I could support its hands off approach.
September 4, 2013 at 12:27 PM #765124SD Realtor
ParticipantHilarious… Trying to formulate a strategy on how to deal with this issue in a vacuum is is insane. Do you think that any retaliation to a US strike will be against Saudi Arabia? Jordan? Bahrain? Turkey? Irag? Egypt? Lebanon?
Jeez man pull your head out. Do you want to start a war just to prove a point? Is that it?
Try to get a bigger sense of the instability of the region. That there is a possibility of reactions to your making a point. I know the logic may be tricky here… Out of all the countries in the middle east, which one may be punished as a response to a US military action. Now if you figured that out, what do you think that country may do…do you think they will just sit there and have no response? Okay now if you figured that out, now what will happen…Was it worth you risking a nice little war in the region just to prove your point?
Then go back to square one and think…… hmmm… maybe this could have been prevented….Maybe there are other things here to consider…
It is not a fixation on Israel. It is a simple follow the logical path of possibility of what could happen. Not saying it will… it could… and really I don’t think it is honestly worth the risk.
September 4, 2013 at 12:29 PM #765125ParticipantRand Pauls position would be we don’t touch Syria with a 10 foot pole.
September 4, 2013 at 12:38 PM #765126spdrun
ParticipantThey’re like a bunch of high-school kids looking for a bar fight. “You don’t back me up, we’ll all look like pussies. C’mon, be a man, you’re making us all look bad.”
Congresspeople need to show some sanity, put their foot down, and nix the strike. Maybe if there were more women in Congress…
September 4, 2013 at 12:50 PM #765127Participant[quote=FlyerInHi]I singled out Israel because proportionately Israel gets way more support from us. Even Kerry mentions Israel all the time as if we owe it to them.
We are the enablers of Israel. Without us Israel would have to rethink its survival in the region and make peace with its neighbors.
Saudi Arabia is a big country has has plenty if money.
My opinion is that the arc of history bends towards justice and democracy. We just need to support the democratic evolvement of the Middle East and let the chips fall where they may. We need to build our image with the population as fair arbiters. In the long run that would serve us well. If Israel is diminished and the Jewish state is no longer just Jewish because of the Arab population, and if the royal Saudi family falls, then so be it.
[/quote]
Israel is not just Jewish. Roughly 20% of the citizens are Arabs. Not 20% of the population. The citizenry. Arabs hold seats in parliament. Jewish populations in the surrounding countries, which less than 100 years ago was over a million? Egypt, in the dozens. Syria, maybe a dozen. Saudi Arabia, zero. Iraq, less than 20. The number of Palestinian citizens of Israel, outnumber and have more rights than those of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon combined. So if we’re going to be fair arbiters in the middle east, we can only do that in the context of our own democratic framework. The only justice and democracy that has existed in the middle east over the last 100 years is in Israel.
September 4, 2013 at 12:58 PM #765128GuestSdr, I think Israel and SA want us to strike Syria.
I’m saying we strike Syria not to take side, but in response to the use of chemical weapons.
I would welcome a hands off approach. Not sure if rand Paul would withdraw support for Israel. I’m confused between the libertarian, mind our own business position (which I like) and the judeo-christian, anti-muslim agitation of the Tea Party.
September 4, 2013 at 12:59 PM #765129ParticipantI’m not sure if justice has existed ANYWHERE in the Middle East in the last 100 years, sad to say.
September 4, 2013 at 1:01 PM #765130ParticipantI’m not sure if we can bomb another country
(short of killing everyone and letting G-d sort them out) without at least inadvertently picking a side.September 4, 2013 at 1:35 PM #765134ParticipantFIH I know you are not saying we take sides. What I am saying is that it doesn’t matter. I absolutely understand your rationale for a strike. My point is that you need to consider all of the other variables are in the region in order to make your point. Furthermore your point may be viewed as meaningless by many of the organizations out there regardless of whether they are terrorist orgs, sovereigns or just millions and millions of ordinary citizens. Finally that could be used as fodder to incite more violence.
Is it worth taking that risk? Some people say yes, personally I think not… and it is questionable that it would accomplish the intent.
September 4, 2013 at 1:41 PM #765135Anonymous
GuestTotally agree, justice and the Middle East, in it’s entirety, have been strangers for decades.
It seems everyone here, regardless of their position on strikes against Syria, are agreed that the Assad regime used chemical weapons against the opposition. Did I miss an episode of our war drumming MSM where someone laid out any type of believable, detailed evidence that the regime was actually responsible? For the life of me I think Putin is the only one making any sense here. Why in the world would Assad do this when he’s kicking ass and the UN inspectors are in town? Where are these mostly classified ‘evidence’ coming from? Why can’t we show it to the Russians and let them try to debunk it? Sure sounds like desperate and fanatical rebels wouldn’t mind false flagging some captured chemical shells on civilians and other, unfriendly rebel groups to get a boost in their failing efforts.
September 4, 2013 at 1:46 PM #765133GuestThe context of the existing order is what keeps us bogged down.
We created the anti-Americanism in the populations of the Middle East. We supported colonial powers, deposed leaders, created dictators, etc… So it’s logical that we are not seen as friends. The right wing Muslim groups were the only social structures that could resist the oppressors we supported.
Sure, right wing Muslim groups will gain power through the ballot boxes if the existing order crumbles. There will be unrest and possibly an attack on Israel. But we need to let a natural order get established.
In the process, we needs to make sure the Muslim populations know that we are their friends.
If it were up to me, I’d let Iran have nuclear weapons by pretending they don’t have them (like we do with israel) and normalize relations with Tehran. Then gradually reduce military aid to Israel and Egypt.
Saudia Arabia can afford to buy its own weapons. But if there is revolution, we need to support popular will.
The natural order is that big countries like Iran want to be big in their neighborhood. We can’t stop it. Israel is small. Its role should be commensurately small.
It will take decades for us build goodwill with the Muslim populations. In the mean time, just contain the unrest without taking sides, except when chemical or biological weapons are used, or during other humanitarian calls.
September 4, 2013 at 3:02 PM #765140Participant[quote=FlyerInHi]Sdr, I think Israel and SA want us to strike Syria.
[/quote]
Why would Israel want it?
September 4, 2013 at 3:21 PM #765142GuestWell, AIPAC seems to be pretty gung-ho..
New York Times Deletes This Paragraph In Which White House Says AIPAC Is Key To War
Read more at http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/09/links-9413.html#fkOWz0YidKG45E4h.99AIPAC calls for Congress to authorize Syria action
Read more at http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/09/links-9413.html#qUu4UcVwyfkspe0i.99 -
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