OT: LINCOLN

[scaredyclassic]

had a great time at that movie!

was the incredible contempt reublicans and democrats had for each other in the movie historically accurate?

I was weeping at several points. He was so courageous.

[UCGal]

I saw an interview with the screenwriter yesterday…. it looks like an awesome movie.

[spdrun]

I’m bringing rotten tomatoes. Not because I expect the movie to be bad, but because “Honest Abe” was one of the worst things to happen to the US.

We should have let the South and Bible Belt go straight to Hell in 1861 — withdrawn all troops, relinquished all forts, and left them to f**k themselves. Slavery would have ended naturally due to mechanization, and this country would be much less politically divided right now.

[NotCranky]

[quote=spdrun]I’m bringing rotten tomatoes. Not because I expect the movie to be bad, but because “Honest Abe” was one of the worst things to happen to the US.

We should have let the South and Bible Belt go straight to Hell in 1861 — withdrawn all troops, relinquished all forts, and left them to f**k themselves. Slavery would have ended naturally due to mechanization, and this country would be much less politically divided right now.[/quote]

And the slaves naturally should wait, until mechanization freed them? Freed them to what?

[spdrun]

A gradual increase in freedom, as happened in Brazil since 1888. (As also happened in the US South since the 1950s.)

Actually, had there not been a war and if emancipation had come from within, there would likely have been less push to create racist laws for purposes of revenge.

[Hatfield]

Horseshit. “As happened in the South since the 1950s?” This increase in freedom did not happen on its own, it happened because the federal gov’t intervened. The Civil Rights movement in the South would have stalled and probably failed had it not been for federal intervention. How anyone could argue otherwise is utterly beyond comprehension.

Getting back to the topic on hand, I enjoyed Lincoln and was pleased that Doris Kearns Goodwin assisted with the screenplay. Daniel Day Lewis (once again unrecognizable) will probably win an Oscar for his nuanced performance. Can’t recommend the film highly enough.

[spdrun]

International pressure can go a long way, even if Federal pressure didn’t exist. Regardless of the possible fate of the slaves, I’m not changing my opinion that the US would be better off today without legislators from the South and Southern Midwest obstructing progress in DC.

[Diego Mamani]

It’s an interesting exercise in counterfactual history. The human cost of the war was so large, that it makes us wonder whether allowing slavery to persist a little longer would have been an acceptable trade off.

The Union could have said to the South: OK, secede, but I’m not buying your cotton, and I’m not selling you anything either. Would the south had declared war to open markets to its products? Probably not: easier to trade with Europe, Latin America, etc.

My guess is that before long: (1) the Union would have been restored, and (2) slavery would have been abolished in the southern states.

Latest research puts the war’s death toll at 750,000. Too high a cost was paid by a country of 31 million.

[Hatfield]

[quote=spdrun] I’m not changing my opinion that the US would be better off today without legislators from the South and Southern Midwest obstructing progress in DC.[/quote]

On this much we agree. Have you read Ask Not What Good We Do?

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=Diego Mamani]It’s an interesting exercise in counterfactual history. The human cost of the war was so large, that it makes us wonder whether allowing slavery to persist a little longer would have been an acceptable trade off.

The Union could have said to the South: OK, secede, but I’m not buying your cotton, and I’m not selling you anything either. Would the south had declared war to open markets to its products? Probably not: easier to trade with Europe, Latin America, etc.

My guess is that before long: (1) the Union would have been restored, and (2) slavery would have been abolished in the southern states.

Latest research puts the war’s death toll at 750,000. Too high a cost was paid by a country of 31 million.[/quote]

Except for the fact that Lincoln had no such option. He had to preserve the Union at all costs and when it became apparent that the Southern states were bent on secession, war was inevitable.

A common mistake, and one that clearly informs spdrun’s thinking, is that the Civil War was fought over slavery and thus slavery (versus abolition) was the primary driving force. It wasn’t. This was an inevitable collision between two cultures: the rapidly industrializing and modern North and the agrarian and antebellum South.

Slavery was a factor, but not the primary factor, thus the Emancipation Proclamation was not signed until 1863, well into the war.

[flyer]

The film was moving. Can’t beat Daniel-Day Lewis and Spielberg.

Two of my kids who work on the corporate side of the entertainment industry have friends who worked on the movie, and they said it was a phenomenal experience.

Also check out Skyfall, Silver Linings Playbook and Flight–a bit fantastical–but still entertaining. (and no, MOST pilots don’t have the problems the character in the movie has–and as for the technical issues in the film–here’s a pretty good explanation from one of my peers. . .)

http://blogs.airspacemag.com/view/2012/11/is-denzels-upside-down-flying-trick-plausible/

[SK in CV]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Except for the fact that Lincoln had no such option. He had to preserve the Union at all costs and when it became apparent that the Southern states were bent on secession, war was inevitable.

A common mistake, and one that clearly informs spdrun’s thinking, is that the Civil War was fought over slavery and thus slavery (versus abolition) was the primary driving force. It wasn’t. This was an inevitable collision between two cultures: the rapidly industrializing and modern North and the agrarian and antebellum South.

Slavery was a factor, but not the primary factor, thus the Emancipation Proclamation was not signed until 1863, well into the war.[/quote]

I think that’s an over-simplification. The conflict was centered on social/economic differences between the north and the south. But the primary difference, both socially and economically was slavery. The north was industrial. The south was agrarian, and integral to the southern economy was cheap slave labor. If not but for that slave labor, the war would not have happened. It was pretty much a done deal as soon as Lincoln was elected.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=SK in CV][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Except for the fact that Lincoln had no such option. He had to preserve the Union at all costs and when it became apparent that the Southern states were bent on secession, war was inevitable.

A common mistake, and one that clearly informs spdrun’s thinking, is that the Civil War was fought over slavery and thus slavery (versus abolition) was the primary driving force. It wasn’t. This was an inevitable collision between two cultures: the rapidly industrializing and modern North and the agrarian and antebellum South.

Slavery was a factor, but not the primary factor, thus the Emancipation Proclamation was not signed until 1863, well into the war.[/quote]

I think that’s an over-simplification. The conflict was centered on social/economic differences between the north and the south. But the primary difference, both socially and economically was slavery. The north was industrial. The south was agrarian, and integral to the southern economy was cheap slave labor. If not but for that slave labor, the war would not have happened. It was pretty much a done deal as soon as Lincoln was elected.[/quote]

SK: Oversimplification? Crap, I thought I had captured the entire casus belli in those three brief paragraphs!

No argument that slave labor underpinned the Southern economy, but slavery was not the primary factor behind the opening of hostilities. Lincoln struggled against quite a few Northerners who were adamantly opposed to abolition. It took over two years of war the Emancipation Proclamation was signed.

[as]

Just watched it this afternoon. Great movie!

[moneymaker]

Not having seen the movie or read a history book in over 30 years I’m pretty sure if any state in the union tried to secede (ok except Alaska or Hawaii) the troops would be called in.

[Author]

Posts