ot. the life changing magic of tidying up: the Japanese art of decluttering

[FlyerInHi]

BG, I had a good laugh reading your posts. I enjoyed them.

Zk, I just want to clarify that tidiness is just one item in a good upbringing. There are other qualities such as being able to play chess, a musical instrument, athleticism, etc… I suppose that in order to quantify the whole person, you’d have to assign weights and scores to whatever criteria you believe are important. I personally assign more weight to tidiness.

I haven’t read the book but the title is “The life changing magic of tidying up.” That implies there’s positive magic to the process. You might as well argue that the whole premise of the book is flawed.

Also, you talked about forgetting about social norms and judging from a blank slate when it comes to tidiness and table manners. But then you bring up faithfulness in marriage. Marriage and faithfulness to one spouse are as strong social conventions as they get. Can we throw them out too?

I’m being facetious here, but I think that your wife has saved you from a life of messiness. You owe her a debt of gratitude. Your progeny are from now on going to pass on the art of being tidy.

[scaredyclassic]

Well. Come on people. I was very messy and now I’m almost ppsychotic ally neat. At least for now.

but I’m still essentially the same idiot.

shit. I smell peanut butter.

oh wait there’s an open jar of pb a kid left out for lunchmaking.

phew.

[scaredyclassic]

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6124824?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

Interesting data pt.

[zk]

[quote=FlyerInHi]
Zk, I just want to clarify that tidiness is just one item in a good upbringing. There are other qualities such as being able to play chess, a musical instrument, athleticism, etc… I suppose that in order to quantify the whole person, you’d have to assign weights and scores to whatever criteria you believe are important. I personally assign more weight to tidiness.

I haven’t read the book but the title is “The life changing magic of tidying up.” That implies there’s positive magic to the process. You might as well argue that the whole premise of the book is flawed.

Also, you talked about forgetting about social norms and judging from a blank slate when it comes to tidiness and table manners. But then you bring up faithfulness in marriage. Marriage and faithfulness to one spouse are as strong social conventions as they get. Can we throw them out too?

I’m being facetious here, but I think that your wife has saved you from a life of messiness. You owe her a debt of gratitude. Your progeny are from now on going to pass on the art of being tidy.[/quote]

I’ll agree to disagree on how much weight to put on tidiness. It’s possible I undervalue it, but I think it’s obvious you overvalue it.

While I don’t think the premise of the book is flawed, I do think, as I said in previous posts, that the “magic” would only really apply to people who are bothered by clutter. Which isn’t everybody.

[scaredyclassic]

I thought I wasn’t bothered but I guess I was.

[scaredyclassic]

I think it depends on the reason for the clutter. Not all clutter serves same psych. Function.

[FlyerInHi]

The book just came out. I missed that before.

I like the Japanese art of living in small spaces. They do things well.

I have little cravings for food, shopping, material things. I only buy what is quality. I like real estate because I like turning a mess into a nice livable space. I think that my rentals are working out because I make them look good and inviting in my own way (not the typical flipper remodel way). I should write a book.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=scaredyclassic]not a correlation. justa hypothetical.

if one states “all tidy people are superior”, then there need exist only one tidy pedophile to counter the initial proposition. there’s no correlation; just a hypothetical example to ounter a kind of absurd initial sweeping proposition.[/quote]

When I state that “tidy people are superior”, I mean in general, limited to the area of personal space. Of course, I don’t mean “all 100% of tidy” people. I think that we have to be mindful of the context.

People think that neat freaks are fussy, demanding and difficult to be around. I understand that, and I don’t really mind. That’s why I try hard not be fussy and demanding of others when I obtain services. But when it comes to my own personal space, I’m very quick to judge.

I think it’s like drugs, alcohol, food and other personal weaknesses. The people doing it to themselves are no hurting or bothering anyone. I would vigorously defend their right to do as they please. But we can still judge and not want any of that in our own lives.

Example here. When I go with friends to a restaurant and they order dishes that I don’t think are worth eating, I will just stay quiet and let them enjoy. But in my mind, I would think huh, no. When people leave a messy table full of bunched up napkins, I think “glad I don’t live with such people.”

[scaredyclassic]

[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=scaredyclassic]not a correlation. justa hypothetical.

if one states “all tidy people are superior”, then there need exist only one tidy pedophile to counter the initial proposition. there’s no correlation; just a hypothetical example to ounter a kind of absurd initial sweeping proposition.[/quote]

When I state that “tidy people are superior”, I mean in general, limited to the area of personal space. Of course, I don’t mean “all 100% of tidy” people. I think that we have to be mindful of the context.

People think that neat freaks are fussy, demanding and difficult to be around. I understand that, and I don’t really mind. That’s why I try hard not be fussy and demanding of others when I obtain services. But when it comes to my own personal space, I’m very quick to judge.

I think it’s like drugs, alcohol, food and other personal weaknesses. The people doing it to themselves are no hurting or bothering anyone. I would vigorously defend their right to do as they please. But we can still judge and not want any of that in our own lives.

Example here. When I go with friends to a restaurant and they order dishes that I don’t think are worth eating, I will just stay quiet and let them enjoy. But in my mind, I would think huh, no. When people leave a messy table full of bunched up napkins, I think “glad I don’t live with such people.”[/quote]

well, thats sure not what you said above. here you seem to be saying, all things being equal being tidy is better. above, you seem to be saying tidy people ar eless likely to use drugs, have bad lives, have better upbringings.

and there’s no particular evidence for that.

autistic people might be very neat and orderly…and damaged. being neat and tidy probably doesn’t mean shit.

it’s very difficult to hear you when the tone is so utterly judgmental.

it might be as simple as saying: I prefer tidiness to messiness.

all the inferences and judgments and inferences that you draw afterwards just aren’t necessarily true, no matter how dogmatically you may assert them.

our personal preferences are simply that.

[FlyerInHi]

ok. I prefer tidiness over messiness. Not just prefer, but very strongly prefer.

[CA renter]

Late to the thread, but wow… I think most of us get what ZK was trying to say here, and he did not connect being tidy to being a rapist or convict of any sort. Not sure where that came from.

FWIW, I tend to have the reputation of being a “neat freak,” even though it’s more of an obsessive-compulsive issue with certain things like floors, counters, towels, sponges, etc. I’m very particular about certain things, like finances, and need most things to be very much in order. This is NOT healthy, IMHO, and I do not think of my husband as being lucky to have me in this sense (I make it up in other ways). Even though my DH likes things clean, the poor guy has to live with me constantly fussing about one thing or another.

I do agree that messy-ish people are probably more laid-back (and very neat people are probably more uptight), but see this as a good thing. Of course, hoarding is extreme, and all the hoarders I know (with at least a couple of official hoarders in the family — yes, I think it’s genetic) are depressed and have some mental/emotional issues, but hoarding is not the same as being a bit messy or disorganized.

I like tidy and uncluttered, and this book looks very interesting to me, but that doesn’t mean that people who think differently are superior or inferior to the tidy folks. To each his or her own, as long as it doesn’t harm anyone else.

[zk]

[quote=CA renter]Late to the thread, but wow… I think most of us get what ZK was trying to say here, and he did not connect being tidy to being a rapist or convict of any sort. Not sure where that came from.

[/quote]

Well, not only did she think I connected being tidy to being a rapist, she tried to connect me to same by saying that I was…

“indicat[ing] that YOU have your own issues that you are bringing here which have nothing to do with tidiness or cleanliness. zk, are you comparing yourself here to a pedophile or rapist who is “tidy?”

Somehow she thinks either I or anybody else on this forum is stupid enough to not think through what she is saying and to actually make that connection. Either that or she is stupid enough (or emotionally upset enough) to think that that connection exists.

She misread, didn’t read, quoted out of context, implied I said stuff I didn’t say, and just plain made stuff up, all in an obvious effort to make me look bad.

You say you don’t know where that came from, but I think it’s obvious. I’ve made bg look stupid a few times. She won’t outright admit it, but she must know it at some level, as evidenced by the fact that she’s lashing out.

As I said, I’m not proud of the fact that I’ve enjoyed making her look stupid. But at least I do it with her own words and her own stupidity. I don’t have to resort to a bunch of bs to make her look bad.

Apparently bg doesn’t realize it, but obviously she looks more and more ridiculous the more she lashes out emotionally and irrationally. Of course, it’s fine with me if she makes a fool of herself. I’m just glad we’re on a forum with mostly intelligent people who can see her foolishness for what it is.

Obviously, bg has some intelligent things to say sometimes. And she’s clearly not stupid in the traditional sense of the word. But she gets wrapped around the axle about something, and all sense goes right out the window. And her reluctance to admit mistakes results in her defending positions to the point of absurdity. Which wouldn’t bother me if she wasn’t cocky about it. There are few things that I find more appalling than somebody who is simultaneously being moronic and cocky.

If I continue to make bg look stupid when she’s simultaneously moronic and cocky, I’ll continue to do it using her own words. bg, if you want to make me look stupid instead of yourself, try using my words instead of what you’ve been doing. I know I don’t give you much to work with, but if you’re patient it’ll probably happen for you.

[scaredyclassic]

Liberals are messy…

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/organization-and-political-leanings/

[FlyerInHi]

In theory, messiness and dirtiness are separate and one is not necessarily inclusive of the other. But in practice, they go together.

I visited a messy house recently and I purposely observed.
I noticed a bathroom counter full of bottles and stuff. Sure ebough the sink and surroundings are not clean. All I can say is observe and decide for yourself. Examine and decide if some lifestyle habits are up to the standards of advanced people.

I’m the type that looks up to rigor and self discipline. I could never be a liberal with an anything goes attitude.

[scaredyclassic]

If you have kids…

20 years down the line…

They leave…

Maybe you think

Should a spent more time hanging with them…

Less time worrying about keeping cleanliness stds.

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