OT: How much baggage will you accept?

[CA renter]

Imputed income is like savings. That’s very real money. Best of all, it’s tax-free.

[CA renter]

BG, you might want to ask teachers about those after-school programs. While they certainly help working parents by giving them a lower-cost option, most teachers would not want to put their own kids in those programs (unless it’s for a short time, and they are at the same school site…which is just a matter of convenience). These programs are not superior to a parent’s care in any way, nor are they better than most of the more expensive care options that most professional parents would choose.

[scaredyclassic]

[quote=CA renter]Imputed income is like savings. That’s very real money. Best of all, it’s tax-free.[/quote]

kind of. xecpt no one ever got rich off imputed income. and you dont get to pick a pretend number. it’s what you really really would have had to pay.

whcih is less th an the number we like to imagine.

i get imputed income of 1.50 everytime i iron a shirt. except.. there’s no way in hell im actually paying anyone that much money to iron my shirt. so did I “make” 1.50. kind of sort of.

but not really.

[CA renter]

[quote=Blogstar][quote=CA renter][quote=Blogstar]

You just said that thing that’s bolded again. Then you claimed that there is sociological proof for that thing that is bolded that you just said that you never say.

And that men are catching up wouldn’t be a compliment or an insult if you didn’t first believe that women are better than men.

Then you pepper more anecdotes to prove what you aren’t saying. Your own dad is proof( big surprise there).

My childhood life was terrible but my parents are not proof any general truth about the comparative value of their respective genders and either is your father or any number of bad actors you want to cherry pick.

So you say all the time that women are better than men. It is a part of who you are. “Mask of political correctness” my ass. You are coercive. At least don’t deny that your position is that women are better than men and always have been.

You can bold it again, that’s still where you are at.[/quote]

Okay, where is your proof that men have always been good husbands and fathers? Where is your evidence that they have always helped out with domestic chores and caretaking?

Where is your evidence that men haven’t oppressed others, especially women?

And while my father was not a good husband, he was a good father (as stated). My mother was not such a good mother. I can be honest and objective about this subject…far more honest and objective than you are.

How about your family? Didn’t you say that it was your father who caused so much harm to your family?

And how about all of those other families where the father has abandoned them? Can you compare that to the number of women who’ve abandoned their families?

How about crime rates? Take a look at which gender commits most of the violent (and other) crimes.

So, yeah, I’m not going to pretend that everything has always been great between the sexes, and I’m not going to pretend that women haven’t been subjugated by men throughout all of human history. And I’m not going to pretend that the way “woman’s work” is perceived and valued isn’t almost entirely based on women’s status throughout human history.

Perhaps you’d like to live in some kind of intellectual fairyland, but I don’t.[/quote]
You are still doing it .
My mother abandoned 7 of 8 kids to marry a wealthier man and live an easier and better life, She took me with her at least in part because she was stealing my childhood to keep her company.
She is proof of nothing about the comparative value of her gender.[/quote]

I’m pretty sure you’ve said that your father wasn’t the best, but I’m not going to search for it…that’s not my point here.

How about answering any of the other questions…have any evidence that men haven’t oppressed women, abused them, abandoned them and their children…especially more than the reverse?

[CA renter]

[quote=scaredyclassic]
kind of. xecpt no one ever got rich off imputed income. and you dont get to pick a pretend number. it’s what you really really would have had to pay.

whcih is less th an the number we like to imagine.

i get imputed income of 1.50 everytime i iron a shirt. except.. there’s no way in hell im actually paying anyone that much money to iron my shirt. so did I “make” 1.50. kind of sort of.

but not really.[/quote]

I disagree. If somebody gives you a fully paid-off house in an area that would require ~$3,500/month to rent an equivalent home, that’s very real money. If somebody gives you a car and a gas card so you can manage that 1-2 hour commute to and from work, that is real money. If somebody takes care of your kids so that you don’t have to spend thousands a month on childcare, that is real money.

Why do you think it’s not real money when your spouse is the one providing these savings?

Savings is real money, in every sense of the word. It increases your real income and wealth, without question.

[scaredyclassic]

Kinda … sometimes …

But only if you really would’ve spent the money and couldn’t have cut corners

[CA renter]

[quote=scaredyclassic]Kinda … sometimes …

But only if you really would’ve spent the money and couldn’t have cut corners[/quote]

The numbers detailed in my post to BG are very real numbers. As stated, they are on the (very) low side, if anything.

And stop trying to use cost-shifting as a way to “prove” that these things don’t have value. Just because somebody else is paying for them doesn’t mean that they don’t have value.

And why in the world would anyone cut corners in order to give themselves LESS time with their families (cutting corners to tweak the numbers to make the numbers favor wage-earning over caretaking)? If anything, they would cut corners in order to stay home more (if that is what they would prefer), not so that they could work more.

[scaredyclassic]

But what if we wouldn’t pay????
The 3500 house is nice, like super quality day care but what if we were only going to rent a 1400 house. Am I really 2100 richer?

Am I wealthier cause my kids get better care that I wouldn’t have paid 4?

No

[CA renter]

[quote=scaredyclassic][quote=CA renter]Imputed income is like savings. That’s very real money. Best of all, it’s tax-free.[/quote]

kind of. xecpt no one ever got rich off imputed income. and you dont get to pick a pretend number. it’s what you really really would have had to pay.

whcih is less th an the number we like to imagine.

i get imputed income of 1.50 everytime i iron a shirt. except.. there’s no way in hell im actually paying anyone that much money to iron my shirt. so did I “make” 1.50. kind of sort of.

but not really.[/quote]

You can easily look up the rate for childcare workers, domestic workers, personal assistants, bookkeepers, etc. who are similar in quality to your wife…who would do the same things around the house, educate and care for your children in the same way, etc.

How much do you think you would have to pay for this person work for your family — without having any outside life of their own, every day and night of the year — for many years? What do YOU think you would have to pay?

[bearishgurl]

CAR, I’ve never “dictated” how anyone should live their life. Everyone has their own path and far be it from me to suggest anyone stray from their chosen path. I believe in cause and effect (karma?) and that everyone makes their own bed, including myself.

I don’t know where you have read anywhere on this blog that I have “stubbornly insisted” that “professionals” should move to South County. Actually, the opposite is true. Since we already have more than enough “professionals” living here (and everyone else for that matter) and more than enough real estate “suitable” for “professionals” to live in, I feel there are about 200K too many people down here and would never suggest people move here. I would have preferred that no residential construction had occurred here after about 1992 but, alas, the damage is done.

I beg to differ with you in that there is little to no difference between longtime career women making $40 – $80K vs “professional” women. We all have the same hopes for our children and most of us want the same or similar things for ourselves.

I do agree that most longtime low-income working women (ex: housekeepers, hotel maids, etc) mostly do not have the same aspirations as their higher-earning counterparts. But I don’t see myself (as a semi-professional) as any less smarter, more poorly dressed, worse looking, less lucky, to have poorer taste, less resourceful, a worse communicator, etc than a woman who makes twice what I do or even a woman who makes more than $150K per year. In many ways, I am more fortunate because I am now a bit freer in regards to my time.

CAR, the only breakdown you posted here was the YMCA daycare chart (mostly for licensed daycare homes). The chart by itself doesn’t account for the worker-parent taking home only .30 on the dollar as you are asserting unless they make less than $55K gross annually and have three kids in daycare simultaneously … all under school age.

And even then, as scaredy pointed out … the kids will outgrow the situation quickly. One goes to school half day first, then full day. Then the next one goes to school half day, and so on. The ones in school are only using afterschool care (about 1/3 to 1/2 the price of FT daycare). Meanwhile the worker parent is in line for promotions and raises while their kids are aging out of FT daycare. Their raises compound on themselves when it is time for another raise.

All of this can’t happen while the worker-parent’s (expensive) college degree is gathering dust in a drawer at home for years and no employers are even aware of what they can do.

[CA renter]

[quote=bearishgurl]CAR, I’ve never “dictated” how anyone should live their life. Everyone has their own path and far be it from me to suggest anyone stray from their chosen path. I believe in cause and effect (karma?) and that everyone makes their own bed, including myself.

I don’t know where you have read anywhere on this blog that I have “stubbornly insisted” that “professionals” should move to South County. Actually, the opposite is true. Since we already have more than enough “professionals” living here (and everyone else for that matter) and more than enough real estate “suitable” for “professionals” to live in, I feel there are about 200K too many people down here and would never suggest people move here. I would have preferred that no residential construction had occurred here after about 1992 but, alas, the damage is done.

I beg to differ with you in that there is little to no difference between longtime career women making $40 – $80K vs “professional” women. We all have the same hopes for our children and most of us want the same or similar things for ourselves.

I do agree that most longtime low-income working women (ex: housekeepers, hotel maids, etc) mostly do not have the same aspirations as their higher-earning counterparts. But I don’t see myself (as a semi-professional) as any less smarter, more poorly dressed, worse looking, less lucky, to have poorer taste, less resourceful, a worse communicator, etc than a woman who makes twice what I do or even a woman who makes more than $150K per year. In many ways, I am more fortunate because I am now a bit freer in regards to my time.

CAR, the only breakdown you posted here was the YMCA daycare chart (mostly for licensed daycare homes). The chart by itself doesn’t account for the worker-parent taking home only .30 on the dollar as you are asserting unless they make less than $55K gross annually and have three kids in daycare simultaneously … all under school age.

And even then, as scaredy pointed out … the kids will outgrow the situation quickly. One goes to school half day first, then full day. Then the next one goes to school half day, and so on. The ones in school are only using afterschool care (about 1/3 to 1/2 the price of FT daycare). Meanwhile the worker parent is in line for promotions and raises while their kids are aging out of FT daycare. Their raises compound on themselves when it is time for another raise.

All of this can’t happen while the worker-parent’s (expensive) college degree is gathering dust in a drawer at home for years and no employers are even aware of what they can do.[/quote]

Please read that post again. I included the costs for both preschool AND after-school care for when they were all in “free” (not free…somebody else is paying actual money for that!) school.

And the prices were not just for in-home daycare. They included both in-home and care at the school site or other institution (like the YMCA’s own preschool).

The numbers are all there, but the taxes were understated (by quite a bit, if the other spouse earns a decent income) because I didn’t count the first income. You keep insisting that you don’t see them, but all you have to do is look. I’ve done all the work for you!

[CA renter]

[quote=scaredyclassic]But what if we wouldn’t pay????
The 3500 house is nice, like super quality day care but what if we were only going to rent a 1400 house. Am I really 2100 richer?

Am I wealthier cause my kids get better care that I wouldn’t have paid 4?

No[/quote]

We’re talking about equivalent services.

Look at the cost breakdown, above. What part of that do you not get? We’re talking about the YMCA, for goodness sake, not La Jolla Country Day!

Does quality count? Does it have any greater value than something of a lesser quality? I dunno…what do you think?

[NotCranky]

[quote=CA renter][quote=Blogstar][quote=CA renter][quote=Blogstar]

You just said that thing that’s bolded again. Then you claimed that there is sociological proof for that thing that is bolded that you just said that you never say.

And that men are catching up wouldn’t be a compliment or an insult if you didn’t first believe that women are better than men.

Then you pepper more anecdotes to prove what you aren’t saying. Your own dad is proof( big surprise there).

My childhood life was terrible but my parents are not proof any general truth about the comparative value of their respective genders and either is your father or any number of bad actors you want to cherry pick.

So you say all the time that women are better than men. It is a part of who you are. “Mask of political correctness” my ass. You are coercive. At least don’t deny that your position is that women are better than men and always have been.

You can bold it again, that’s still where you are at.[/quote]

Okay, where is your proof that men have always been good husbands and fathers? Where is your evidence that they have always helped out with domestic chores and caretaking?

Where is your evidence that men haven’t oppressed others, especially women?

And while my father was not a good husband, he was a good father (as stated). My mother was not such a good mother. I can be honest and objective about this subject…far more honest and objective than you are.

How about your family? Didn’t you say that it was your father who caused so much harm to your family?

And how about all of those other families where the father has abandoned them? Can you compare that to the number of women who’ve abandoned their families?

How about crime rates? Take a look at which gender commits most of the violent (and other) crimes.

So, yeah, I’m not going to pretend that everything has always been great between the sexes, and I’m not going to pretend that women haven’t been subjugated by men throughout all of human history. And I’m not going to pretend that the way “woman’s work” is perceived and valued isn’t almost entirely based on women’s status throughout human history.

Perhaps you’d like to live in some kind of intellectual fairyland, but I don’t.[/quote]
You are still doing it .
My mother abandoned 7 of 8 kids to marry a wealthier man and live an easier and better life, She took me with her at least in part because she was stealing my childhood to keep her company.
She is proof of nothing about the comparative value of her gender.[/quote]

I’m pretty sure you’ve said that your father wasn’t the best, but I’m not going to search for it…that’s not my point here.

How about answering any of the other questions…have any evidence that men haven’t oppressed women, abused them, abandoned them and their children…especially more than the reverse?[/quote]

So What if my father wasn’t the best? Why would he be the best, water seeks it’s own level. But let’s shift attention back to my father because my mother doesn’t build your case. Pathetic. As to your other points, you don’t get that score keeping without insight is stupid so I am not going to bother. You WILL reject anything that does not build your case.

You see what you want to see and believe what you want to believe. There are all kinds of books out there, but your stack proves women are better than men. Everything you can or will think about proves that women are better than men. Yet a few posts back you denied you ever even say it.

Do you have boys? Because it is your world view you are saying it to your boys, because you are saying it to the world, you are saying it to your boys. Maybe you only have girls but trust me you aren’t doing your girls any favors by saying it. I tell my boys women are great not just their mom or a few select ones that pass my opinion of who’s “catching up”. Did G-d make your girls better than your boys?

[CA renter]

[quote=Blogstar]

So What if my father wasn’t the best? Why would he be the best, water seeks it’s own level. But let’s shift attention back to my father because my mother doesn’t build your case. Pathetic. As to your other points, you don’t get that score keeping without insight is stupid so I am not going to bother. You WILL reject anything that does not build your case.

You see what you want to see and believe what you want to believe. There are all kinds of books out there, but your stack proves women are better than men. Everything you can or will think about proves that women are better than men. Yet a few posts back you denied you ever even say it.[/quote]

Are you describing yourself? It sure looks like it.

Yes, I would love to see the research you’d like to provide to show that women have not been oppressed by men throughout history. I’d like to see evidence to show that “women’s work” is perceived to be lower-status and lower-value because of some other reason than the fact that they were essentially owned slaves for most of human history (they should want to do it for free…they should be honored to spend their lives serving their men, lucky them!).

Honestly, I’m not being facetious here. Please show us how women have been treated as well as men throughout history. I’d love to be proven wrong.

[NotCranky]

[quote=CA renter][quote=Blogstar]

So What if my father wasn’t the best? Why would he be the best, water seeks it’s own level. But let’s shift attention back to my father because my mother doesn’t build your case. Pathetic. As to your other points, you don’t get that score keeping without insight is stupid so I am not going to bother. You WILL reject anything that does not build your case.

You see what you want to see and believe what you want to believe. There are all kinds of books out there, but your stack proves women are better than men. Everything you can or will think about proves that women are better than men. Yet a few posts back you denied you ever even say it.[/quote]

Are you describing yourself? It sure looks like it.

Yes, I would love to see the research you’d like to provide to show that women have not been oppressed by men throughout history. I’d like to see evidence to show that “women’s work” is perceived to be lower-status and lower-value because of some other reason than the fact that they were essentially owned slaves for most of human history (they should want to do it for free…they should be honored to spend their lives serving their men, lucky them!).

Honestly, I’m not being facetious here. Please show us how women have been treated as well as men throughout history. I’d love to be proven wrong.[/quote]

You are standing in front of the water trough and you won’t drink. Good night.

[Author]

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