OT: How badly are doctors/hospitals getting squeezed by insurance co?

[paramount]

Excellent thread, and patientrenter thank you for your insight.

I think Real Estate is a trivial issue compared to Healthcare.

On one hand, I don’t think any human should be denied life saving healthcare just because they can’t pay.

On the other hand, there are only so many resources to go around, so we do need limitations.

I have to believe Healthcare costs are inflated though because of those who access services, but do not or cannot pay.

Based on my experience with Aetna, Cigna (one of the worst IMO) and Kaiser – I would say Kaiser has a very good model (which includes prevention).

[patientrenter]

[quote=paramount]…
On one hand, I don’t think any human should be denied life saving healthcare just because they can’t pay.

On the other hand, there are only so many resources to go around, so we do need limitations…..[/quote]

I think those are in conflict, paramount. When and if my time comes, I will refuse medical care that merely prolongs my life a little, at great cost to society at large. It’s just like not throwing our used mercury thermometers, or other toxic chemicals, into the public water system. Sure, it may go against the grain to deny ourselves anything, but I think we all bear responsibility to exercise restraint and judicious self-denial for the greater good. We just haven’t faced up to a rational debate and conclusions on health care. Given how primitive is the public’s ability to think rationally about, and discuss, this issue now, I doubt we will tackle it well in our lifetimes.

[patientrenter]

[quote=paramount]…
On one hand, I don’t think any human should be denied life saving healthcare just because they can’t pay.

On the other hand, there are only so many resources to go around, so we do need limitations…..[/quote]

I think those are in conflict, paramount. When and if my time comes, I will refuse medical care that merely prolongs my life a little, at great cost to society at large. It’s just like not throwing our used mercury thermometers, or other toxic chemicals, into the public water system. Sure, it may go against the grain to deny ourselves anything, but I think we all bear responsibility to exercise restraint and judicious self-denial for the greater good. We just haven’t faced up to a rational debate and conclusions on health care. Given how primitive is the public’s ability to think rationally about, and discuss, this issue now, I doubt we will tackle it well in our lifetimes.

[patientrenter]

[quote=paramount]…
On one hand, I don’t think any human should be denied life saving healthcare just because they can’t pay.

On the other hand, there are only so many resources to go around, so we do need limitations…..[/quote]

I think those are in conflict, paramount. When and if my time comes, I will refuse medical care that merely prolongs my life a little, at great cost to society at large. It’s just like not throwing our used mercury thermometers, or other toxic chemicals, into the public water system. Sure, it may go against the grain to deny ourselves anything, but I think we all bear responsibility to exercise restraint and judicious self-denial for the greater good. We just haven’t faced up to a rational debate and conclusions on health care. Given how primitive is the public’s ability to think rationally about, and discuss, this issue now, I doubt we will tackle it well in our lifetimes.

[patientrenter]

[quote=paramount]…
On one hand, I don’t think any human should be denied life saving healthcare just because they can’t pay.

On the other hand, there are only so many resources to go around, so we do need limitations…..[/quote]

I think those are in conflict, paramount. When and if my time comes, I will refuse medical care that merely prolongs my life a little, at great cost to society at large. It’s just like not throwing our used mercury thermometers, or other toxic chemicals, into the public water system. Sure, it may go against the grain to deny ourselves anything, but I think we all bear responsibility to exercise restraint and judicious self-denial for the greater good. We just haven’t faced up to a rational debate and conclusions on health care. Given how primitive is the public’s ability to think rationally about, and discuss, this issue now, I doubt we will tackle it well in our lifetimes.

[patientrenter]

[quote=paramount]…
On one hand, I don’t think any human should be denied life saving healthcare just because they can’t pay.

On the other hand, there are only so many resources to go around, so we do need limitations…..[/quote]

I think those are in conflict, paramount. When and if my time comes, I will refuse medical care that merely prolongs my life a little, at great cost to society at large. It’s just like not throwing our used mercury thermometers, or other toxic chemicals, into the public water system. Sure, it may go against the grain to deny ourselves anything, but I think we all bear responsibility to exercise restraint and judicious self-denial for the greater good. We just haven’t faced up to a rational debate and conclusions on health care. Given how primitive is the public’s ability to think rationally about, and discuss, this issue now, I doubt we will tackle it well in our lifetimes.

[Ricechex]

[quote=patientrenter][quote=paramount]…
On one hand, I don’t think any human should be denied life saving healthcare just because they can’t pay.

On the other hand, there are only so many resources to go around, so we do need limitations…..[/quote]

I think those are in conflict, paramount. When and if my time comes, I will refuse medical care that merely prolongs my life a little, at great cost to society at large. It’s just like not throwing our used mercury thermometers, or other toxic chemicals, into the public water system. Sure, it may go against the grain to deny ourselves anything, but I think we all bear responsibility to exercise restraint and judicious self-denial for the greater good. We just haven’t faced up to a rational debate and conclusions on health care. Given how primitive is the public’s ability to think rationally about, and discuss, this issue now, I doubt we will tackle it well in our lifetimes.[/quote]

Patientrenter, I am with you. Not only does the medical care prolong your life, but quality of life may be diminished with said healthcare. An example would be chemotherapy, it certain cases. My father was an M.D. and he always said be careful what the doctors say…it is not always in your best interest. The mission statement of a doctor is to make you live at all costs. Is it always the best thing?

I had a friend who had a very old dog who had been dying for 2 years. When he took it to the Vet for the last call, the Vet suggested that the dog undergo many expensive tests, though it was painfully obvious that this was the end. After the tests were concluded, the Vet called back and stated there was nothing he could do. Only to look at the dog, and know the past history would have been enough to know that tests were not necessary. I realize Vets are NOT M.D.’s but this was just to illustrate a point.

Also, congrats to you for not throwing your mercury thermometers in the trash. I never throw batteries away either, though most of the people that I know do, it isn’t easy to find a recycling program. I had some neighbors years ago, that despite the blue recycling bin in the backyard, continued to throw recyclables in the trash. Laziness and entitlement.

(Sorry folks, I know this was a thread hijack…)

[Ricechex]

[quote=patientrenter][quote=paramount]…
On one hand, I don’t think any human should be denied life saving healthcare just because they can’t pay.

On the other hand, there are only so many resources to go around, so we do need limitations…..[/quote]

I think those are in conflict, paramount. When and if my time comes, I will refuse medical care that merely prolongs my life a little, at great cost to society at large. It’s just like not throwing our used mercury thermometers, or other toxic chemicals, into the public water system. Sure, it may go against the grain to deny ourselves anything, but I think we all bear responsibility to exercise restraint and judicious self-denial for the greater good. We just haven’t faced up to a rational debate and conclusions on health care. Given how primitive is the public’s ability to think rationally about, and discuss, this issue now, I doubt we will tackle it well in our lifetimes.[/quote]

Patientrenter, I am with you. Not only does the medical care prolong your life, but quality of life may be diminished with said healthcare. An example would be chemotherapy, it certain cases. My father was an M.D. and he always said be careful what the doctors say…it is not always in your best interest. The mission statement of a doctor is to make you live at all costs. Is it always the best thing?

I had a friend who had a very old dog who had been dying for 2 years. When he took it to the Vet for the last call, the Vet suggested that the dog undergo many expensive tests, though it was painfully obvious that this was the end. After the tests were concluded, the Vet called back and stated there was nothing he could do. Only to look at the dog, and know the past history would have been enough to know that tests were not necessary. I realize Vets are NOT M.D.’s but this was just to illustrate a point.

Also, congrats to you for not throwing your mercury thermometers in the trash. I never throw batteries away either, though most of the people that I know do, it isn’t easy to find a recycling program. I had some neighbors years ago, that despite the blue recycling bin in the backyard, continued to throw recyclables in the trash. Laziness and entitlement.

(Sorry folks, I know this was a thread hijack…)

[Ricechex]

[quote=patientrenter][quote=paramount]…
On one hand, I don’t think any human should be denied life saving healthcare just because they can’t pay.

On the other hand, there are only so many resources to go around, so we do need limitations…..[/quote]

I think those are in conflict, paramount. When and if my time comes, I will refuse medical care that merely prolongs my life a little, at great cost to society at large. It’s just like not throwing our used mercury thermometers, or other toxic chemicals, into the public water system. Sure, it may go against the grain to deny ourselves anything, but I think we all bear responsibility to exercise restraint and judicious self-denial for the greater good. We just haven’t faced up to a rational debate and conclusions on health care. Given how primitive is the public’s ability to think rationally about, and discuss, this issue now, I doubt we will tackle it well in our lifetimes.[/quote]

Patientrenter, I am with you. Not only does the medical care prolong your life, but quality of life may be diminished with said healthcare. An example would be chemotherapy, it certain cases. My father was an M.D. and he always said be careful what the doctors say…it is not always in your best interest. The mission statement of a doctor is to make you live at all costs. Is it always the best thing?

I had a friend who had a very old dog who had been dying for 2 years. When he took it to the Vet for the last call, the Vet suggested that the dog undergo many expensive tests, though it was painfully obvious that this was the end. After the tests were concluded, the Vet called back and stated there was nothing he could do. Only to look at the dog, and know the past history would have been enough to know that tests were not necessary. I realize Vets are NOT M.D.’s but this was just to illustrate a point.

Also, congrats to you for not throwing your mercury thermometers in the trash. I never throw batteries away either, though most of the people that I know do, it isn’t easy to find a recycling program. I had some neighbors years ago, that despite the blue recycling bin in the backyard, continued to throw recyclables in the trash. Laziness and entitlement.

(Sorry folks, I know this was a thread hijack…)

[Ricechex]

[quote=patientrenter][quote=paramount]…
On one hand, I don’t think any human should be denied life saving healthcare just because they can’t pay.

On the other hand, there are only so many resources to go around, so we do need limitations…..[/quote]

I think those are in conflict, paramount. When and if my time comes, I will refuse medical care that merely prolongs my life a little, at great cost to society at large. It’s just like not throwing our used mercury thermometers, or other toxic chemicals, into the public water system. Sure, it may go against the grain to deny ourselves anything, but I think we all bear responsibility to exercise restraint and judicious self-denial for the greater good. We just haven’t faced up to a rational debate and conclusions on health care. Given how primitive is the public’s ability to think rationally about, and discuss, this issue now, I doubt we will tackle it well in our lifetimes.[/quote]

Patientrenter, I am with you. Not only does the medical care prolong your life, but quality of life may be diminished with said healthcare. An example would be chemotherapy, it certain cases. My father was an M.D. and he always said be careful what the doctors say…it is not always in your best interest. The mission statement of a doctor is to make you live at all costs. Is it always the best thing?

I had a friend who had a very old dog who had been dying for 2 years. When he took it to the Vet for the last call, the Vet suggested that the dog undergo many expensive tests, though it was painfully obvious that this was the end. After the tests were concluded, the Vet called back and stated there was nothing he could do. Only to look at the dog, and know the past history would have been enough to know that tests were not necessary. I realize Vets are NOT M.D.’s but this was just to illustrate a point.

Also, congrats to you for not throwing your mercury thermometers in the trash. I never throw batteries away either, though most of the people that I know do, it isn’t easy to find a recycling program. I had some neighbors years ago, that despite the blue recycling bin in the backyard, continued to throw recyclables in the trash. Laziness and entitlement.

(Sorry folks, I know this was a thread hijack…)

[Ricechex]

[quote=patientrenter][quote=paramount]…
On one hand, I don’t think any human should be denied life saving healthcare just because they can’t pay.

On the other hand, there are only so many resources to go around, so we do need limitations…..[/quote]

I think those are in conflict, paramount. When and if my time comes, I will refuse medical care that merely prolongs my life a little, at great cost to society at large. It’s just like not throwing our used mercury thermometers, or other toxic chemicals, into the public water system. Sure, it may go against the grain to deny ourselves anything, but I think we all bear responsibility to exercise restraint and judicious self-denial for the greater good. We just haven’t faced up to a rational debate and conclusions on health care. Given how primitive is the public’s ability to think rationally about, and discuss, this issue now, I doubt we will tackle it well in our lifetimes.[/quote]

Patientrenter, I am with you. Not only does the medical care prolong your life, but quality of life may be diminished with said healthcare. An example would be chemotherapy, it certain cases. My father was an M.D. and he always said be careful what the doctors say…it is not always in your best interest. The mission statement of a doctor is to make you live at all costs. Is it always the best thing?

I had a friend who had a very old dog who had been dying for 2 years. When he took it to the Vet for the last call, the Vet suggested that the dog undergo many expensive tests, though it was painfully obvious that this was the end. After the tests were concluded, the Vet called back and stated there was nothing he could do. Only to look at the dog, and know the past history would have been enough to know that tests were not necessary. I realize Vets are NOT M.D.’s but this was just to illustrate a point.

Also, congrats to you for not throwing your mercury thermometers in the trash. I never throw batteries away either, though most of the people that I know do, it isn’t easy to find a recycling program. I had some neighbors years ago, that despite the blue recycling bin in the backyard, continued to throw recyclables in the trash. Laziness and entitlement.

(Sorry folks, I know this was a thread hijack…)

[DWCAP]

[quote=patientrenter]
On one hand, I don’t think any human should be denied life saving healthcare just because they can’t pay.

On the other hand, there are only so many resources to go around, so we do need limitations…..[/quote]

“In its submission to the Romanow commission on the future of health care, the institute said that 30 to 50 per cent of total lifetime health care expenditures occur in the last six months of life.”
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0LVZ/is_8_17/ai_84895863/

“Total health care costs in the United States (U.S.) reached $989 billion in 1995 and now exceed $1 trillion, 14% of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) (1). Of this total, a disproportionate share is attributable to the care of elderly patients shortly before their deaths. According to Lubitz and Prihoda (2) and Lubitz and Riley (3), 6% of Medicare recipients 65 yr of age and older who died in 1978 and 1988 accounted for 28% of all costs of the Medicare program. In the same two years, 77% of the Medicare decedents’ expenditures occurred in the last year of life, 52% of them in the last 2 mo, and 40% in the last month. Inpatient expenses accounted for over 70% of the decedents’ total costs.”
http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/content/full/165/6/750

There are alot of problems with health care. One of the biggest is just that we as people will do anything to avoid death. Usually assisted by doctors who have taken oaths and years of training to stop death at all costs.

What we end up with is a situtation where modern tech and medicine has outgrown our ethos about medicine. Decisions about what should be done are made by two groups, doctors who have made an oath to maximize life, and family members who are often in shock and pain and looking to avoid what is coming.
This same care is paid for by neither of these groups.

We need to find a better way of dying. Spending tens to hundreds of thousands for maybe days needs to change.

[DWCAP]

[quote=patientrenter]
On one hand, I don’t think any human should be denied life saving healthcare just because they can’t pay.

On the other hand, there are only so many resources to go around, so we do need limitations…..[/quote]

“In its submission to the Romanow commission on the future of health care, the institute said that 30 to 50 per cent of total lifetime health care expenditures occur in the last six months of life.”
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0LVZ/is_8_17/ai_84895863/

“Total health care costs in the United States (U.S.) reached $989 billion in 1995 and now exceed $1 trillion, 14% of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) (1). Of this total, a disproportionate share is attributable to the care of elderly patients shortly before their deaths. According to Lubitz and Prihoda (2) and Lubitz and Riley (3), 6% of Medicare recipients 65 yr of age and older who died in 1978 and 1988 accounted for 28% of all costs of the Medicare program. In the same two years, 77% of the Medicare decedents’ expenditures occurred in the last year of life, 52% of them in the last 2 mo, and 40% in the last month. Inpatient expenses accounted for over 70% of the decedents’ total costs.”
http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/content/full/165/6/750

There are alot of problems with health care. One of the biggest is just that we as people will do anything to avoid death. Usually assisted by doctors who have taken oaths and years of training to stop death at all costs.

What we end up with is a situtation where modern tech and medicine has outgrown our ethos about medicine. Decisions about what should be done are made by two groups, doctors who have made an oath to maximize life, and family members who are often in shock and pain and looking to avoid what is coming.
This same care is paid for by neither of these groups.

We need to find a better way of dying. Spending tens to hundreds of thousands for maybe days needs to change.

[DWCAP]

[quote=patientrenter]
On one hand, I don’t think any human should be denied life saving healthcare just because they can’t pay.

On the other hand, there are only so many resources to go around, so we do need limitations…..[/quote]

“In its submission to the Romanow commission on the future of health care, the institute said that 30 to 50 per cent of total lifetime health care expenditures occur in the last six months of life.”
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0LVZ/is_8_17/ai_84895863/

“Total health care costs in the United States (U.S.) reached $989 billion in 1995 and now exceed $1 trillion, 14% of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) (1). Of this total, a disproportionate share is attributable to the care of elderly patients shortly before their deaths. According to Lubitz and Prihoda (2) and Lubitz and Riley (3), 6% of Medicare recipients 65 yr of age and older who died in 1978 and 1988 accounted for 28% of all costs of the Medicare program. In the same two years, 77% of the Medicare decedents’ expenditures occurred in the last year of life, 52% of them in the last 2 mo, and 40% in the last month. Inpatient expenses accounted for over 70% of the decedents’ total costs.”
http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/content/full/165/6/750

There are alot of problems with health care. One of the biggest is just that we as people will do anything to avoid death. Usually assisted by doctors who have taken oaths and years of training to stop death at all costs.

What we end up with is a situtation where modern tech and medicine has outgrown our ethos about medicine. Decisions about what should be done are made by two groups, doctors who have made an oath to maximize life, and family members who are often in shock and pain and looking to avoid what is coming.
This same care is paid for by neither of these groups.

We need to find a better way of dying. Spending tens to hundreds of thousands for maybe days needs to change.

[DWCAP]

[quote=patientrenter]
On one hand, I don’t think any human should be denied life saving healthcare just because they can’t pay.

On the other hand, there are only so many resources to go around, so we do need limitations…..[/quote]

“In its submission to the Romanow commission on the future of health care, the institute said that 30 to 50 per cent of total lifetime health care expenditures occur in the last six months of life.”
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0LVZ/is_8_17/ai_84895863/

“Total health care costs in the United States (U.S.) reached $989 billion in 1995 and now exceed $1 trillion, 14% of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) (1). Of this total, a disproportionate share is attributable to the care of elderly patients shortly before their deaths. According to Lubitz and Prihoda (2) and Lubitz and Riley (3), 6% of Medicare recipients 65 yr of age and older who died in 1978 and 1988 accounted for 28% of all costs of the Medicare program. In the same two years, 77% of the Medicare decedents’ expenditures occurred in the last year of life, 52% of them in the last 2 mo, and 40% in the last month. Inpatient expenses accounted for over 70% of the decedents’ total costs.”
http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/content/full/165/6/750

There are alot of problems with health care. One of the biggest is just that we as people will do anything to avoid death. Usually assisted by doctors who have taken oaths and years of training to stop death at all costs.

What we end up with is a situtation where modern tech and medicine has outgrown our ethos about medicine. Decisions about what should be done are made by two groups, doctors who have made an oath to maximize life, and family members who are often in shock and pain and looking to avoid what is coming.
This same care is paid for by neither of these groups.

We need to find a better way of dying. Spending tens to hundreds of thousands for maybe days needs to change.

[Author]

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