Non-salary CA budget cuts

[NotCranky]

[quote=CA renter]BTW, for those who are offended by the facts, especially as it pertains to illegal immigrants and “poor” people, you need to get out there and see what we’re talking about. I have a hunch that those of us who are making these claims are not “racist,” but have seen the system from within.

Try to get a job (maybe even volunteer) for a large school district in California, or see if you can talk to someone who works for a prison or a public hospital. Ask them where the money is going. Seriously. Spend a day in a welfare office or a grocery store and see who is getting all the subsidies.

Instead of having a knee-jerk reaction to what you don’t like to hear, try finding the facts for yourselves and prove us wrong. I would LOVE to be proven wrong; but so far, the only thing advocates for illegal immigration do is name-call and throw around a bunch of racist terms. That’s not a legitimate argument. [/quote]

I can’t prove that poor people don’t collect social benefits and I can’t prove that many of them are not brown.I can’t prove that many poor brown people don’t fall through the cracks or that some of them or not just shits that hurt society badly. After that is not done, I could try to challenge what I see as shallow views of the topics of poor people and immigrants(not all brown not all poor & including refugees) but it would be a complete waste of time even if “legality” were not an issue and in many cases it is not.

I am pretty sure many have no capacity or will to try to see much beyond the standard view anyway. Why do we take care of “them” when it could be all for “us”. We miss the fact that if it were not for multiple generations of people just like this generation of primitively scapegoated poor and immigrants(mostly during recessions) we would not have nearly as guilded of a pot to piss in on average. We also might not have an all volunteer military.

As for illegals, scapegoat the social engineers who let them in not the people who come, most of whom are honest, other than having committed the horrible crime of looking for shit work of the underclass,where they are wanted and in a place where it is necessary to politicize the farce that they are not, by deeming them “illegal”.
O.K so I wasted my time. I make myself not one of the “in crowd” is all I accomplish. Oh well.

[CA renter]

I can only speak for myself, but think people mischaracterize those of us who are opposed to **illegal** immigration. My mother was an immigrant, but she came here legally. Most of the families I grew up with were immigrant families. Most of the people I’ve worked with were immigrants. About half of the people I’ve dated were immigrants. More than half of the people I’ve lived with were immigrants or children of immigrants. This is NOT about “immigrant bashing,” and the constant name calling only serves to stir up the passions on both sides and leaves us much further apart than if we could discuss the issues calmly and rationally…using LOGIC, not emotions.

The cold, hard truth is that we have limited resources, and those resources have to be divided among our citizens. If we have uncontrolled, illegal immigration…and most of those illegal immigrants do not bring their own wealth into the country, then they are a net drag on our economy and severely depress the quality of life that many generations of natives and immigrants have worked so hard for.

You are absolutely correct about one thing, though — we are blaming the wrong people. We are subsidizing all the people who employ illegal labor and expect the taxpayers to pick up the slack because those employers do not pay payroll taxes or provide any benefits to their workers, and they don’t pay their workers enough to enable them to stay out of the welfare system (using that term loosely).

Additionally, I think we need to help Latin American counties get their s&!t together. All I know is that corruption is so endemic, it’s nearly impossible to eliminate. Not sure if we could do anything about it, and I highly doubt Mexico wants our military personnel hanging around with rifles threatening to shoot any Mexicans who appear to be breaking the law. I don’t know what the answer is there, but I do know that EVERYONE is a loser with the uncontrolled immigration we are getting, and that includes the workers who are exploited by the employers who hire them.

Again, I think you need to depersonalize this and look at it from a cold, objective perspective. To claim that we who oppose illegal immigration are somehow inferior or evil or “racist” is wrong. We can show you numbers and facts that back up our beliefs. Until the advocates for illegal immigration acknowledge that there are some very severe problems with the system as it stands now (only based on FACTS), then this problem will never be solved.

[CA renter]

I can only speak for myself, but think people mischaracterize those of us who are opposed to **illegal** immigration. My mother was an immigrant, but she came here legally. Most of the families I grew up with were immigrant families. Most of the people I’ve worked with were immigrants. About half of the people I’ve dated were immigrants. More than half of the people I’ve lived with were immigrants or children of immigrants. This is NOT about “immigrant bashing,” and the constant name calling only serves to stir up the passions on both sides and leaves us much further apart than if we could discuss the issues calmly and rationally…using LOGIC, not emotions.

The cold, hard truth is that we have limited resources, and those resources have to be divided among our citizens. If we have uncontrolled, illegal immigration…and most of those illegal immigrants do not bring their own wealth into the country, then they are a net drag on our economy and severely depress the quality of life that many generations of natives and immigrants have worked so hard for.

You are absolutely correct about one thing, though — we are blaming the wrong people. We are subsidizing all the people who employ illegal labor and expect the taxpayers to pick up the slack because those employers do not pay payroll taxes or provide any benefits to their workers, and they don’t pay their workers enough to enable them to stay out of the welfare system (using that term loosely).

Additionally, I think we need to help Latin American counties get their s&!t together. All I know is that corruption is so endemic, it’s nearly impossible to eliminate. Not sure if we could do anything about it, and I highly doubt Mexico wants our military personnel hanging around with rifles threatening to shoot any Mexicans who appear to be breaking the law. I don’t know what the answer is there, but I do know that EVERYONE is a loser with the uncontrolled immigration we are getting, and that includes the workers who are exploited by the employers who hire them.

Again, I think you need to depersonalize this and look at it from a cold, objective perspective. To claim that we who oppose illegal immigration are somehow inferior or evil or “racist” is wrong. We can show you numbers and facts that back up our beliefs. Until the advocates for illegal immigration acknowledge that there are some very severe problems with the system as it stands now (only based on FACTS), then this problem will never be solved.

[CA renter]

I can only speak for myself, but think people mischaracterize those of us who are opposed to **illegal** immigration. My mother was an immigrant, but she came here legally. Most of the families I grew up with were immigrant families. Most of the people I’ve worked with were immigrants. About half of the people I’ve dated were immigrants. More than half of the people I’ve lived with were immigrants or children of immigrants. This is NOT about “immigrant bashing,” and the constant name calling only serves to stir up the passions on both sides and leaves us much further apart than if we could discuss the issues calmly and rationally…using LOGIC, not emotions.

The cold, hard truth is that we have limited resources, and those resources have to be divided among our citizens. If we have uncontrolled, illegal immigration…and most of those illegal immigrants do not bring their own wealth into the country, then they are a net drag on our economy and severely depress the quality of life that many generations of natives and immigrants have worked so hard for.

You are absolutely correct about one thing, though — we are blaming the wrong people. We are subsidizing all the people who employ illegal labor and expect the taxpayers to pick up the slack because those employers do not pay payroll taxes or provide any benefits to their workers, and they don’t pay their workers enough to enable them to stay out of the welfare system (using that term loosely).

Additionally, I think we need to help Latin American counties get their s&!t together. All I know is that corruption is so endemic, it’s nearly impossible to eliminate. Not sure if we could do anything about it, and I highly doubt Mexico wants our military personnel hanging around with rifles threatening to shoot any Mexicans who appear to be breaking the law. I don’t know what the answer is there, but I do know that EVERYONE is a loser with the uncontrolled immigration we are getting, and that includes the workers who are exploited by the employers who hire them.

Again, I think you need to depersonalize this and look at it from a cold, objective perspective. To claim that we who oppose illegal immigration are somehow inferior or evil or “racist” is wrong. We can show you numbers and facts that back up our beliefs. Until the advocates for illegal immigration acknowledge that there are some very severe problems with the system as it stands now (only based on FACTS), then this problem will never be solved.

[CA renter]

I can only speak for myself, but think people mischaracterize those of us who are opposed to **illegal** immigration. My mother was an immigrant, but she came here legally. Most of the families I grew up with were immigrant families. Most of the people I’ve worked with were immigrants. About half of the people I’ve dated were immigrants. More than half of the people I’ve lived with were immigrants or children of immigrants. This is NOT about “immigrant bashing,” and the constant name calling only serves to stir up the passions on both sides and leaves us much further apart than if we could discuss the issues calmly and rationally…using LOGIC, not emotions.

The cold, hard truth is that we have limited resources, and those resources have to be divided among our citizens. If we have uncontrolled, illegal immigration…and most of those illegal immigrants do not bring their own wealth into the country, then they are a net drag on our economy and severely depress the quality of life that many generations of natives and immigrants have worked so hard for.

You are absolutely correct about one thing, though — we are blaming the wrong people. We are subsidizing all the people who employ illegal labor and expect the taxpayers to pick up the slack because those employers do not pay payroll taxes or provide any benefits to their workers, and they don’t pay their workers enough to enable them to stay out of the welfare system (using that term loosely).

Additionally, I think we need to help Latin American counties get their s&!t together. All I know is that corruption is so endemic, it’s nearly impossible to eliminate. Not sure if we could do anything about it, and I highly doubt Mexico wants our military personnel hanging around with rifles threatening to shoot any Mexicans who appear to be breaking the law. I don’t know what the answer is there, but I do know that EVERYONE is a loser with the uncontrolled immigration we are getting, and that includes the workers who are exploited by the employers who hire them.

Again, I think you need to depersonalize this and look at it from a cold, objective perspective. To claim that we who oppose illegal immigration are somehow inferior or evil or “racist” is wrong. We can show you numbers and facts that back up our beliefs. Until the advocates for illegal immigration acknowledge that there are some very severe problems with the system as it stands now (only based on FACTS), then this problem will never be solved.

[CA renter]

I can only speak for myself, but think people mischaracterize those of us who are opposed to **illegal** immigration. My mother was an immigrant, but she came here legally. Most of the families I grew up with were immigrant families. Most of the people I’ve worked with were immigrants. About half of the people I’ve dated were immigrants. More than half of the people I’ve lived with were immigrants or children of immigrants. This is NOT about “immigrant bashing,” and the constant name calling only serves to stir up the passions on both sides and leaves us much further apart than if we could discuss the issues calmly and rationally…using LOGIC, not emotions.

The cold, hard truth is that we have limited resources, and those resources have to be divided among our citizens. If we have uncontrolled, illegal immigration…and most of those illegal immigrants do not bring their own wealth into the country, then they are a net drag on our economy and severely depress the quality of life that many generations of natives and immigrants have worked so hard for.

You are absolutely correct about one thing, though — we are blaming the wrong people. We are subsidizing all the people who employ illegal labor and expect the taxpayers to pick up the slack because those employers do not pay payroll taxes or provide any benefits to their workers, and they don’t pay their workers enough to enable them to stay out of the welfare system (using that term loosely).

Additionally, I think we need to help Latin American counties get their s&!t together. All I know is that corruption is so endemic, it’s nearly impossible to eliminate. Not sure if we could do anything about it, and I highly doubt Mexico wants our military personnel hanging around with rifles threatening to shoot any Mexicans who appear to be breaking the law. I don’t know what the answer is there, but I do know that EVERYONE is a loser with the uncontrolled immigration we are getting, and that includes the workers who are exploited by the employers who hire them.

Again, I think you need to depersonalize this and look at it from a cold, objective perspective. To claim that we who oppose illegal immigration are somehow inferior or evil or “racist” is wrong. We can show you numbers and facts that back up our beliefs. Until the advocates for illegal immigration acknowledge that there are some very severe problems with the system as it stands now (only based on FACTS), then this problem will never be solved.

[jonnycsd]

Posted salary schedules are grossly misleading they are the starting point ONLY. “Add on Pays” typically increase that by 20% and in some cases double it. In San Diego you get this if you speak spanish, know CPR, complete MS Office training or certain firearms training, take certain types of duty and on and on.

So comparing the posted salary, which accrues overtime, with the private sector compensation that get no overtime, no add on pays, and has a defined contribution retirement rather than defined benefits is just nonsense.

There are some civil servants who work really hard, and many more who hardly work at all. Due to union and other work rules, it is almost impossible to fire the lazy ones.

Local Govt budgets get a huge portion of thier funding from Sacramento – which is what needs to be cut. The system is broken – I never thought about state and local BKs as a way to fix it, but the more I think about it the more I like it.

[jonnycsd]

Posted salary schedules are grossly misleading they are the starting point ONLY. “Add on Pays” typically increase that by 20% and in some cases double it. In San Diego you get this if you speak spanish, know CPR, complete MS Office training or certain firearms training, take certain types of duty and on and on.

So comparing the posted salary, which accrues overtime, with the private sector compensation that get no overtime, no add on pays, and has a defined contribution retirement rather than defined benefits is just nonsense.

There are some civil servants who work really hard, and many more who hardly work at all. Due to union and other work rules, it is almost impossible to fire the lazy ones.

Local Govt budgets get a huge portion of thier funding from Sacramento – which is what needs to be cut. The system is broken – I never thought about state and local BKs as a way to fix it, but the more I think about it the more I like it.

[jonnycsd]

Posted salary schedules are grossly misleading they are the starting point ONLY. “Add on Pays” typically increase that by 20% and in some cases double it. In San Diego you get this if you speak spanish, know CPR, complete MS Office training or certain firearms training, take certain types of duty and on and on.

So comparing the posted salary, which accrues overtime, with the private sector compensation that get no overtime, no add on pays, and has a defined contribution retirement rather than defined benefits is just nonsense.

There are some civil servants who work really hard, and many more who hardly work at all. Due to union and other work rules, it is almost impossible to fire the lazy ones.

Local Govt budgets get a huge portion of thier funding from Sacramento – which is what needs to be cut. The system is broken – I never thought about state and local BKs as a way to fix it, but the more I think about it the more I like it.

[jonnycsd]

Posted salary schedules are grossly misleading they are the starting point ONLY. “Add on Pays” typically increase that by 20% and in some cases double it. In San Diego you get this if you speak spanish, know CPR, complete MS Office training or certain firearms training, take certain types of duty and on and on.

So comparing the posted salary, which accrues overtime, with the private sector compensation that get no overtime, no add on pays, and has a defined contribution retirement rather than defined benefits is just nonsense.

There are some civil servants who work really hard, and many more who hardly work at all. Due to union and other work rules, it is almost impossible to fire the lazy ones.

Local Govt budgets get a huge portion of thier funding from Sacramento – which is what needs to be cut. The system is broken – I never thought about state and local BKs as a way to fix it, but the more I think about it the more I like it.

[jonnycsd]

Posted salary schedules are grossly misleading they are the starting point ONLY. “Add on Pays” typically increase that by 20% and in some cases double it. In San Diego you get this if you speak spanish, know CPR, complete MS Office training or certain firearms training, take certain types of duty and on and on.

So comparing the posted salary, which accrues overtime, with the private sector compensation that get no overtime, no add on pays, and has a defined contribution retirement rather than defined benefits is just nonsense.

There are some civil servants who work really hard, and many more who hardly work at all. Due to union and other work rules, it is almost impossible to fire the lazy ones.

Local Govt budgets get a huge portion of thier funding from Sacramento – which is what needs to be cut. The system is broken – I never thought about state and local BKs as a way to fix it, but the more I think about it the more I like it.

[NotCranky]

I am pretty passionate about this stuff and you too have personal ties to the topic. I apologize if you feel I mischaracterized you. I have vast, very up close and personal experiences with poor people, legal and “illegal” immigrants in working, educational and social environments .

My frustration with the label of “illegal”, is that the government makes a law but doesn’t enforce it. What passes for “Illegal immigration” is purposeful or intentional, irresponsible in-sourcing of needy people. The government is irresponsible by not legalizing immigrants to the degree that employers wish to recruit them. All the fussing about the benefits illegals and their offspring receive and all the other one-sided or mostly one-side arguments you frequently see here constitute “scapegoating” to me.

I also think the social costs are not looked at objectively. Capitalism requires a constant underclass but is a failure if one can’t accomplished the entitled ascension to wealth and its trappings. We are now recruiting and underclass that often takes 3 or four generations to move up. While that makes it cheap to get some the goods and services we have and enjoy, it comes at a cost. In contrast the cost is probably being over- socialized through state services but the profits are scurried off by the capitalists.While poor native born citizens are almost always prone to grumbling about the situation , to some degree rightfully so. the middle class and upper middle class citizens are generally happy enough with the status quo and the debate is theoretical until the bill becomes hard to pay, during a recession, then the scapegoating of illegals gets a broader range of participants. Even in the professional world “isms” become more significant.

The “illegals” and children of the illegals and legal immigrants not on solid footing, are doing a significant percentage of our volunteer military and they are doing the heavy lifting in construction(including defense products) and other low skilled work,including taking care of sick and elderly legal citizens, which would put large burdens on families if they had to do it themselves.

If we permitted only a class of immigrants qualified to be our peers, we wouldn’t be able to benefit from the goods and services that the underclass provides so cheaply or we would be paying for them directly.This would be necessary in place of the taxes that go to catch the people, who by the nature of being on the fringe need help or else we would be brutes.

The U.S native born underclass has to compete with this structure putting somewhat of a ceiling on upward mobility as well. The weaker of them are obviously going to demand the same social benefits as the illegals who fall through the cracks. Some of this group are also going to scrape by doing work others do not and or by joining the military.

I definitely think the needs or the poor should be provided for and the term “illegal” should be used more carefully. Does the system need work? Which one doesn’t? I think we are a kind of kiss-up kick down society when it comes to this. We admire wealth with much less concern for the integrity, or lack of, in obtaining it, but abhor the needy with an inabilty to see things that should make us want to defend them and their dignity.

I think we should take care of many of the refugees that we do. Yesterday my wife met an Iraqi woman who is receiving the kind of aid people often bemoan. Her family was recently blown to pieces in Iraq. She and to a lesser degree I, meet people like this all the time.Sometimes they are completely incapacitated by ignorance or injuries of many kinds. We should be proud of taking care of people like her when we are making our strategical and economic gains at their expense.

[NotCranky]

I am pretty passionate about this stuff and you too have personal ties to the topic. I apologize if you feel I mischaracterized you. I have vast, very up close and personal experiences with poor people, legal and “illegal” immigrants in working, educational and social environments .

My frustration with the label of “illegal”, is that the government makes a law but doesn’t enforce it. What passes for “Illegal immigration” is purposeful or intentional, irresponsible in-sourcing of needy people. The government is irresponsible by not legalizing immigrants to the degree that employers wish to recruit them. All the fussing about the benefits illegals and their offspring receive and all the other one-sided or mostly one-side arguments you frequently see here constitute “scapegoating” to me.

I also think the social costs are not looked at objectively. Capitalism requires a constant underclass but is a failure if one can’t accomplished the entitled ascension to wealth and its trappings. We are now recruiting and underclass that often takes 3 or four generations to move up. While that makes it cheap to get some the goods and services we have and enjoy, it comes at a cost. In contrast the cost is probably being over- socialized through state services but the profits are scurried off by the capitalists.While poor native born citizens are almost always prone to grumbling about the situation , to some degree rightfully so. the middle class and upper middle class citizens are generally happy enough with the status quo and the debate is theoretical until the bill becomes hard to pay, during a recession, then the scapegoating of illegals gets a broader range of participants. Even in the professional world “isms” become more significant.

The “illegals” and children of the illegals and legal immigrants not on solid footing, are doing a significant percentage of our volunteer military and they are doing the heavy lifting in construction(including defense products) and other low skilled work,including taking care of sick and elderly legal citizens, which would put large burdens on families if they had to do it themselves.

If we permitted only a class of immigrants qualified to be our peers, we wouldn’t be able to benefit from the goods and services that the underclass provides so cheaply or we would be paying for them directly.This would be necessary in place of the taxes that go to catch the people, who by the nature of being on the fringe need help or else we would be brutes.

The U.S native born underclass has to compete with this structure putting somewhat of a ceiling on upward mobility as well. The weaker of them are obviously going to demand the same social benefits as the illegals who fall through the cracks. Some of this group are also going to scrape by doing work others do not and or by joining the military.

I definitely think the needs or the poor should be provided for and the term “illegal” should be used more carefully. Does the system need work? Which one doesn’t? I think we are a kind of kiss-up kick down society when it comes to this. We admire wealth with much less concern for the integrity, or lack of, in obtaining it, but abhor the needy with an inabilty to see things that should make us want to defend them and their dignity.

I think we should take care of many of the refugees that we do. Yesterday my wife met an Iraqi woman who is receiving the kind of aid people often bemoan. Her family was recently blown to pieces in Iraq. She and to a lesser degree I, meet people like this all the time.Sometimes they are completely incapacitated by ignorance or injuries of many kinds. We should be proud of taking care of people like her when we are making our strategical and economic gains at their expense.

[NotCranky]

I am pretty passionate about this stuff and you too have personal ties to the topic. I apologize if you feel I mischaracterized you. I have vast, very up close and personal experiences with poor people, legal and “illegal” immigrants in working, educational and social environments .

My frustration with the label of “illegal”, is that the government makes a law but doesn’t enforce it. What passes for “Illegal immigration” is purposeful or intentional, irresponsible in-sourcing of needy people. The government is irresponsible by not legalizing immigrants to the degree that employers wish to recruit them. All the fussing about the benefits illegals and their offspring receive and all the other one-sided or mostly one-side arguments you frequently see here constitute “scapegoating” to me.

I also think the social costs are not looked at objectively. Capitalism requires a constant underclass but is a failure if one can’t accomplished the entitled ascension to wealth and its trappings. We are now recruiting and underclass that often takes 3 or four generations to move up. While that makes it cheap to get some the goods and services we have and enjoy, it comes at a cost. In contrast the cost is probably being over- socialized through state services but the profits are scurried off by the capitalists.While poor native born citizens are almost always prone to grumbling about the situation , to some degree rightfully so. the middle class and upper middle class citizens are generally happy enough with the status quo and the debate is theoretical until the bill becomes hard to pay, during a recession, then the scapegoating of illegals gets a broader range of participants. Even in the professional world “isms” become more significant.

The “illegals” and children of the illegals and legal immigrants not on solid footing, are doing a significant percentage of our volunteer military and they are doing the heavy lifting in construction(including defense products) and other low skilled work,including taking care of sick and elderly legal citizens, which would put large burdens on families if they had to do it themselves.

If we permitted only a class of immigrants qualified to be our peers, we wouldn’t be able to benefit from the goods and services that the underclass provides so cheaply or we would be paying for them directly.This would be necessary in place of the taxes that go to catch the people, who by the nature of being on the fringe need help or else we would be brutes.

The U.S native born underclass has to compete with this structure putting somewhat of a ceiling on upward mobility as well. The weaker of them are obviously going to demand the same social benefits as the illegals who fall through the cracks. Some of this group are also going to scrape by doing work others do not and or by joining the military.

I definitely think the needs or the poor should be provided for and the term “illegal” should be used more carefully. Does the system need work? Which one doesn’t? I think we are a kind of kiss-up kick down society when it comes to this. We admire wealth with much less concern for the integrity, or lack of, in obtaining it, but abhor the needy with an inabilty to see things that should make us want to defend them and their dignity.

I think we should take care of many of the refugees that we do. Yesterday my wife met an Iraqi woman who is receiving the kind of aid people often bemoan. Her family was recently blown to pieces in Iraq. She and to a lesser degree I, meet people like this all the time.Sometimes they are completely incapacitated by ignorance or injuries of many kinds. We should be proud of taking care of people like her when we are making our strategical and economic gains at their expense.

[NotCranky]

I am pretty passionate about this stuff and you too have personal ties to the topic. I apologize if you feel I mischaracterized you. I have vast, very up close and personal experiences with poor people, legal and “illegal” immigrants in working, educational and social environments .

My frustration with the label of “illegal”, is that the government makes a law but doesn’t enforce it. What passes for “Illegal immigration” is purposeful or intentional, irresponsible in-sourcing of needy people. The government is irresponsible by not legalizing immigrants to the degree that employers wish to recruit them. All the fussing about the benefits illegals and their offspring receive and all the other one-sided or mostly one-side arguments you frequently see here constitute “scapegoating” to me.

I also think the social costs are not looked at objectively. Capitalism requires a constant underclass but is a failure if one can’t accomplished the entitled ascension to wealth and its trappings. We are now recruiting and underclass that often takes 3 or four generations to move up. While that makes it cheap to get some the goods and services we have and enjoy, it comes at a cost. In contrast the cost is probably being over- socialized through state services but the profits are scurried off by the capitalists.While poor native born citizens are almost always prone to grumbling about the situation , to some degree rightfully so. the middle class and upper middle class citizens are generally happy enough with the status quo and the debate is theoretical until the bill becomes hard to pay, during a recession, then the scapegoating of illegals gets a broader range of participants. Even in the professional world “isms” become more significant.

The “illegals” and children of the illegals and legal immigrants not on solid footing, are doing a significant percentage of our volunteer military and they are doing the heavy lifting in construction(including defense products) and other low skilled work,including taking care of sick and elderly legal citizens, which would put large burdens on families if they had to do it themselves.

If we permitted only a class of immigrants qualified to be our peers, we wouldn’t be able to benefit from the goods and services that the underclass provides so cheaply or we would be paying for them directly.This would be necessary in place of the taxes that go to catch the people, who by the nature of being on the fringe need help or else we would be brutes.

The U.S native born underclass has to compete with this structure putting somewhat of a ceiling on upward mobility as well. The weaker of them are obviously going to demand the same social benefits as the illegals who fall through the cracks. Some of this group are also going to scrape by doing work others do not and or by joining the military.

I definitely think the needs or the poor should be provided for and the term “illegal” should be used more carefully. Does the system need work? Which one doesn’t? I think we are a kind of kiss-up kick down society when it comes to this. We admire wealth with much less concern for the integrity, or lack of, in obtaining it, but abhor the needy with an inabilty to see things that should make us want to defend them and their dignity.

I think we should take care of many of the refugees that we do. Yesterday my wife met an Iraqi woman who is receiving the kind of aid people often bemoan. Her family was recently blown to pieces in Iraq. She and to a lesser degree I, meet people like this all the time.Sometimes they are completely incapacitated by ignorance or injuries of many kinds. We should be proud of taking care of people like her when we are making our strategical and economic gains at their expense.

[Author]

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