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NeetaT.
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November 5, 2009 at 12:39 PM #478699November 5, 2009 at 1:38 PM #478278
Allan from Fallbrook
Participant[quote=pri_dk]Allan,
Good points. I don’t know many facts about this but I suspect that your claims about the involvement of other countries, including Italy.
However I am concerned that many in this country are twisting the war on terror into an opportunity to operate above the law. We have declared a war where almost anyone can be categorized an enemy, while at the same time abandoning international law (Geneva Convention, et. al.) All because this war is “different.”
It’s a dangerous situation, and at this point I’m in favor of just about anything that may provide more accountability to those that prosecute this “war.”[/quote]
Pri: I’ll tell you, I’m torn on this subject. As a former soldier, I oppose torture and I know from first-hand experience that it doesn’t work as an intelligence gathering tool (interrogation is far more effective, although its also far more time consuming).
However, that being said, torture is highly effective when it comes to sending a message. I worked for three years doing counterinsurgency work and I will tell you that there are definitely times when torture is called upon. Is it right? Probably not. Is it legal (as defined by UCMJ, Army Field Manual(s) and Geneva)? Nope. Which calls to mind that line in “Apocalypse Now” about trying to hand out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.
Its a slippery slope and I don’t have the answers. I know that privacy in this country is now largely a lost reality and due to the encroachment of government on our civil liberties in the name/guise of “security” (and we all know the saying about trading liberty for security: You wind up with neither).
During my time in Salvador, I worked with guys that had done time with MACV-SOG and the Phoenix Program in Vietnam. Both of those programs pretty much threw the rule book out the window, but were hugely effective. We duplicated certain aspects of those programs and I know the danger that comes with winning a “different” kind of war. But finding that right balance, to me at least, seems damn near impossible.
November 5, 2009 at 1:38 PM #478643Participant[quote=pri_dk]Allan,
Good points. I don’t know many facts about this but I suspect that your claims about the involvement of other countries, including Italy.
However I am concerned that many in this country are twisting the war on terror into an opportunity to operate above the law. We have declared a war where almost anyone can be categorized an enemy, while at the same time abandoning international law (Geneva Convention, et. al.) All because this war is “different.”
It’s a dangerous situation, and at this point I’m in favor of just about anything that may provide more accountability to those that prosecute this “war.”[/quote]
Pri: I’ll tell you, I’m torn on this subject. As a former soldier, I oppose torture and I know from first-hand experience that it doesn’t work as an intelligence gathering tool (interrogation is far more effective, although its also far more time consuming).
However, that being said, torture is highly effective when it comes to sending a message. I worked for three years doing counterinsurgency work and I will tell you that there are definitely times when torture is called upon. Is it right? Probably not. Is it legal (as defined by UCMJ, Army Field Manual(s) and Geneva)? Nope. Which calls to mind that line in “Apocalypse Now” about trying to hand out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.
Its a slippery slope and I don’t have the answers. I know that privacy in this country is now largely a lost reality and due to the encroachment of government on our civil liberties in the name/guise of “security” (and we all know the saying about trading liberty for security: You wind up with neither).
During my time in Salvador, I worked with guys that had done time with MACV-SOG and the Phoenix Program in Vietnam. Both of those programs pretty much threw the rule book out the window, but were hugely effective. We duplicated certain aspects of those programs and I know the danger that comes with winning a “different” kind of war. But finding that right balance, to me at least, seems damn near impossible.
November 5, 2009 at 1:38 PM #478724Participant[quote=pri_dk]Allan,
Good points. I don’t know many facts about this but I suspect that your claims about the involvement of other countries, including Italy.
However I am concerned that many in this country are twisting the war on terror into an opportunity to operate above the law. We have declared a war where almost anyone can be categorized an enemy, while at the same time abandoning international law (Geneva Convention, et. al.) All because this war is “different.”
It’s a dangerous situation, and at this point I’m in favor of just about anything that may provide more accountability to those that prosecute this “war.”[/quote]
Pri: I’ll tell you, I’m torn on this subject. As a former soldier, I oppose torture and I know from first-hand experience that it doesn’t work as an intelligence gathering tool (interrogation is far more effective, although its also far more time consuming).
However, that being said, torture is highly effective when it comes to sending a message. I worked for three years doing counterinsurgency work and I will tell you that there are definitely times when torture is called upon. Is it right? Probably not. Is it legal (as defined by UCMJ, Army Field Manual(s) and Geneva)? Nope. Which calls to mind that line in “Apocalypse Now” about trying to hand out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.
Its a slippery slope and I don’t have the answers. I know that privacy in this country is now largely a lost reality and due to the encroachment of government on our civil liberties in the name/guise of “security” (and we all know the saying about trading liberty for security: You wind up with neither).
During my time in Salvador, I worked with guys that had done time with MACV-SOG and the Phoenix Program in Vietnam. Both of those programs pretty much threw the rule book out the window, but were hugely effective. We duplicated certain aspects of those programs and I know the danger that comes with winning a “different” kind of war. But finding that right balance, to me at least, seems damn near impossible.
November 5, 2009 at 1:38 PM #478942Participant[quote=pri_dk]Allan,
Good points. I don’t know many facts about this but I suspect that your claims about the involvement of other countries, including Italy.
However I am concerned that many in this country are twisting the war on terror into an opportunity to operate above the law. We have declared a war where almost anyone can be categorized an enemy, while at the same time abandoning international law (Geneva Convention, et. al.) All because this war is “different.”
It’s a dangerous situation, and at this point I’m in favor of just about anything that may provide more accountability to those that prosecute this “war.”[/quote]
Pri: I’ll tell you, I’m torn on this subject. As a former soldier, I oppose torture and I know from first-hand experience that it doesn’t work as an intelligence gathering tool (interrogation is far more effective, although its also far more time consuming).
However, that being said, torture is highly effective when it comes to sending a message. I worked for three years doing counterinsurgency work and I will tell you that there are definitely times when torture is called upon. Is it right? Probably not. Is it legal (as defined by UCMJ, Army Field Manual(s) and Geneva)? Nope. Which calls to mind that line in “Apocalypse Now” about trying to hand out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.
Its a slippery slope and I don’t have the answers. I know that privacy in this country is now largely a lost reality and due to the encroachment of government on our civil liberties in the name/guise of “security” (and we all know the saying about trading liberty for security: You wind up with neither).
During my time in Salvador, I worked with guys that had done time with MACV-SOG and the Phoenix Program in Vietnam. Both of those programs pretty much threw the rule book out the window, but were hugely effective. We duplicated certain aspects of those programs and I know the danger that comes with winning a “different” kind of war. But finding that right balance, to me at least, seems damn near impossible.
November 5, 2009 at 1:38 PM #478107Participant[quote=pri_dk]Allan,
Good points. I don’t know many facts about this but I suspect that your claims about the involvement of other countries, including Italy.
However I am concerned that many in this country are twisting the war on terror into an opportunity to operate above the law. We have declared a war where almost anyone can be categorized an enemy, while at the same time abandoning international law (Geneva Convention, et. al.) All because this war is “different.”
It’s a dangerous situation, and at this point I’m in favor of just about anything that may provide more accountability to those that prosecute this “war.”[/quote]
Pri: I’ll tell you, I’m torn on this subject. As a former soldier, I oppose torture and I know from first-hand experience that it doesn’t work as an intelligence gathering tool (interrogation is far more effective, although its also far more time consuming).
However, that being said, torture is highly effective when it comes to sending a message. I worked for three years doing counterinsurgency work and I will tell you that there are definitely times when torture is called upon. Is it right? Probably not. Is it legal (as defined by UCMJ, Army Field Manual(s) and Geneva)? Nope. Which calls to mind that line in “Apocalypse Now” about trying to hand out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.
Its a slippery slope and I don’t have the answers. I know that privacy in this country is now largely a lost reality and due to the encroachment of government on our civil liberties in the name/guise of “security” (and we all know the saying about trading liberty for security: You wind up with neither).
During my time in Salvador, I worked with guys that had done time with MACV-SOG and the Phoenix Program in Vietnam. Both of those programs pretty much threw the rule book out the window, but were hugely effective. We duplicated certain aspects of those programs and I know the danger that comes with winning a “different” kind of war. But finding that right balance, to me at least, seems damn near impossible.
November 5, 2009 at 3:09 PM #478749Anonymous
GuestAllan,
Yeah, it’s not so easy. I’d like to believe that we can be ideal in our methods and never resort to torture or other unsavory means, but I know the world isn’t that simple. I just hope the folks in charge understand both sides of the dilemma as well as you articulated them.
Apocalypse Now has some pretty terrifying wisdom:
We went back there and they had come and hacked off every innoculated arm. There they were in a pile…A pile of little arms. And I remember…I…I…I cried… I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn’t know what I wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. I never want to forget. And then I realized…like I was shot…Like I was shot with a diamond…a diamond bullet right through my forehead…And I thought:
My God…the genius of that. The genius. The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were
stronger than we. Because they could understand that these were not monsters…These were men…trained cadres…these men who fought with their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love…but they had the strength…the strength…to do that. If I had ten
divisions of those men our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral…and at the same time who are able to
utilize their primordal instincts to kill without feeling…without passion… without judgement…without judgement. Because it’s judgement that defeats us.November 5, 2009 at 3:09 PM #478667GuestAllan,
Yeah, it’s not so easy. I’d like to believe that we can be ideal in our methods and never resort to torture or other unsavory means, but I know the world isn’t that simple. I just hope the folks in charge understand both sides of the dilemma as well as you articulated them.
Apocalypse Now has some pretty terrifying wisdom:
We went back there and they had come and hacked off every innoculated arm. There they were in a pile…A pile of little arms. And I remember…I…I…I cried… I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn’t know what I wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. I never want to forget. And then I realized…like I was shot…Like I was shot with a diamond…a diamond bullet right through my forehead…And I thought:
My God…the genius of that. The genius. The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were
stronger than we. Because they could understand that these were not monsters…These were men…trained cadres…these men who fought with their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love…but they had the strength…the strength…to do that. If I had ten
divisions of those men our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral…and at the same time who are able to
utilize their primordal instincts to kill without feeling…without passion… without judgement…without judgement. Because it’s judgement that defeats us.November 5, 2009 at 3:09 PM #478969GuestAllan,
Yeah, it’s not so easy. I’d like to believe that we can be ideal in our methods and never resort to torture or other unsavory means, but I know the world isn’t that simple. I just hope the folks in charge understand both sides of the dilemma as well as you articulated them.
Apocalypse Now has some pretty terrifying wisdom:
We went back there and they had come and hacked off every innoculated arm. There they were in a pile…A pile of little arms. And I remember…I…I…I cried… I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn’t know what I wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. I never want to forget. And then I realized…like I was shot…Like I was shot with a diamond…a diamond bullet right through my forehead…And I thought:
My God…the genius of that. The genius. The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were
stronger than we. Because they could understand that these were not monsters…These were men…trained cadres…these men who fought with their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love…but they had the strength…the strength…to do that. If I had ten
divisions of those men our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral…and at the same time who are able to
utilize their primordal instincts to kill without feeling…without passion… without judgement…without judgement. Because it’s judgement that defeats us.November 5, 2009 at 3:09 PM #478302GuestAllan,
Yeah, it’s not so easy. I’d like to believe that we can be ideal in our methods and never resort to torture or other unsavory means, but I know the world isn’t that simple. I just hope the folks in charge understand both sides of the dilemma as well as you articulated them.
Apocalypse Now has some pretty terrifying wisdom:
We went back there and they had come and hacked off every innoculated arm. There they were in a pile…A pile of little arms. And I remember…I…I…I cried… I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn’t know what I wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. I never want to forget. And then I realized…like I was shot…Like I was shot with a diamond…a diamond bullet right through my forehead…And I thought:
My God…the genius of that. The genius. The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were
stronger than we. Because they could understand that these were not monsters…These were men…trained cadres…these men who fought with their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love…but they had the strength…the strength…to do that. If I had ten
divisions of those men our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral…and at the same time who are able to
utilize their primordal instincts to kill without feeling…without passion… without judgement…without judgement. Because it’s judgement that defeats us.November 5, 2009 at 3:09 PM #478131GuestAllan,
Yeah, it’s not so easy. I’d like to believe that we can be ideal in our methods and never resort to torture or other unsavory means, but I know the world isn’t that simple. I just hope the folks in charge understand both sides of the dilemma as well as you articulated them.
Apocalypse Now has some pretty terrifying wisdom:
We went back there and they had come and hacked off every innoculated arm. There they were in a pile…A pile of little arms. And I remember…I…I…I cried… I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn’t know what I wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. I never want to forget. And then I realized…like I was shot…Like I was shot with a diamond…a diamond bullet right through my forehead…And I thought:
My God…the genius of that. The genius. The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were
stronger than we. Because they could understand that these were not monsters…These were men…trained cadres…these men who fought with their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love…but they had the strength…the strength…to do that. If I had ten
divisions of those men our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral…and at the same time who are able to
utilize their primordal instincts to kill without feeling…without passion… without judgement…without judgement. Because it’s judgement that defeats us.November 5, 2009 at 9:31 PM #478888Arraya
Participanthttp://rawstory.com/2009/11/ambassador-cia-people-tortured/
Craig Murray, the rector of the University of Dundee in Scotland and until 2004 the UK’s ambassador to Uzbekistan, said the CIA not only relied on confessions gleaned through extreme torture, it sent terror war suspects to Uzbekistan as part of its extraordinary rendition program.
“I’m talking of people being raped with broken bottles,” he said at a lecture late last month that was re-broadcast by the Real News Network. “I’m talking of people having their children tortured in front of them until they sign a confession. I’m talking of people being boiled alive. And the intelligence from these torture sessions was being received by the CIA, and was being passed on.”
snip
Murray asserts that the primary motivation for US and British military involvement in central Asia has to do with large natural gas deposits in Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan. As evidence, he points to the plans to build a natural gas pipeline through Afghanistan that would allow Western oil companies to avoid Russia and Iran when transporting natural gas out of the region.
Murray alleged that in the late 1990s the Uzbek ambassador to the US met with then-Texas Governor George W. Bush to discuss a pipeline for the region, and out of that meeting came agreements that would see Texas-based Enron gain the rights to Uzbekistan’s natural gas deposits, while oil company Unocal worked on developing the Trans-Afghanistan pipeline.
“The consultant who was organizing this for Unocal was a certain Mr. Karzai, who is now president of Afghanistan,” Murray noted.
Murray said part of the motive in hyping up the threat of Islamic terrorism in Uzbekistan through forced confessions was to ensure the country remained on-side in the war on terror, so that the pipeline could be built.
November 5, 2009 at 9:31 PM #479106Participanthttp://rawstory.com/2009/11/ambassador-cia-people-tortured/
Craig Murray, the rector of the University of Dundee in Scotland and until 2004 the UK’s ambassador to Uzbekistan, said the CIA not only relied on confessions gleaned through extreme torture, it sent terror war suspects to Uzbekistan as part of its extraordinary rendition program.
“I’m talking of people being raped with broken bottles,” he said at a lecture late last month that was re-broadcast by the Real News Network. “I’m talking of people having their children tortured in front of them until they sign a confession. I’m talking of people being boiled alive. And the intelligence from these torture sessions was being received by the CIA, and was being passed on.”
snip
Murray asserts that the primary motivation for US and British military involvement in central Asia has to do with large natural gas deposits in Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan. As evidence, he points to the plans to build a natural gas pipeline through Afghanistan that would allow Western oil companies to avoid Russia and Iran when transporting natural gas out of the region.
Murray alleged that in the late 1990s the Uzbek ambassador to the US met with then-Texas Governor George W. Bush to discuss a pipeline for the region, and out of that meeting came agreements that would see Texas-based Enron gain the rights to Uzbekistan’s natural gas deposits, while oil company Unocal worked on developing the Trans-Afghanistan pipeline.
“The consultant who was organizing this for Unocal was a certain Mr. Karzai, who is now president of Afghanistan,” Murray noted.
Murray said part of the motive in hyping up the threat of Islamic terrorism in Uzbekistan through forced confessions was to ensure the country remained on-side in the war on terror, so that the pipeline could be built.
November 5, 2009 at 9:31 PM #478441Participanthttp://rawstory.com/2009/11/ambassador-cia-people-tortured/
Craig Murray, the rector of the University of Dundee in Scotland and until 2004 the UK’s ambassador to Uzbekistan, said the CIA not only relied on confessions gleaned through extreme torture, it sent terror war suspects to Uzbekistan as part of its extraordinary rendition program.
“I’m talking of people being raped with broken bottles,” he said at a lecture late last month that was re-broadcast by the Real News Network. “I’m talking of people having their children tortured in front of them until they sign a confession. I’m talking of people being boiled alive. And the intelligence from these torture sessions was being received by the CIA, and was being passed on.”
snip
Murray asserts that the primary motivation for US and British military involvement in central Asia has to do with large natural gas deposits in Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan. As evidence, he points to the plans to build a natural gas pipeline through Afghanistan that would allow Western oil companies to avoid Russia and Iran when transporting natural gas out of the region.
Murray alleged that in the late 1990s the Uzbek ambassador to the US met with then-Texas Governor George W. Bush to discuss a pipeline for the region, and out of that meeting came agreements that would see Texas-based Enron gain the rights to Uzbekistan’s natural gas deposits, while oil company Unocal worked on developing the Trans-Afghanistan pipeline.
“The consultant who was organizing this for Unocal was a certain Mr. Karzai, who is now president of Afghanistan,” Murray noted.
Murray said part of the motive in hyping up the threat of Islamic terrorism in Uzbekistan through forced confessions was to ensure the country remained on-side in the war on terror, so that the pipeline could be built.
November 5, 2009 at 9:31 PM #478805Participanthttp://rawstory.com/2009/11/ambassador-cia-people-tortured/
Craig Murray, the rector of the University of Dundee in Scotland and until 2004 the UK’s ambassador to Uzbekistan, said the CIA not only relied on confessions gleaned through extreme torture, it sent terror war suspects to Uzbekistan as part of its extraordinary rendition program.
“I’m talking of people being raped with broken bottles,” he said at a lecture late last month that was re-broadcast by the Real News Network. “I’m talking of people having their children tortured in front of them until they sign a confession. I’m talking of people being boiled alive. And the intelligence from these torture sessions was being received by the CIA, and was being passed on.”
snip
Murray asserts that the primary motivation for US and British military involvement in central Asia has to do with large natural gas deposits in Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan. As evidence, he points to the plans to build a natural gas pipeline through Afghanistan that would allow Western oil companies to avoid Russia and Iran when transporting natural gas out of the region.
Murray alleged that in the late 1990s the Uzbek ambassador to the US met with then-Texas Governor George W. Bush to discuss a pipeline for the region, and out of that meeting came agreements that would see Texas-based Enron gain the rights to Uzbekistan’s natural gas deposits, while oil company Unocal worked on developing the Trans-Afghanistan pipeline.
“The consultant who was organizing this for Unocal was a certain Mr. Karzai, who is now president of Afghanistan,” Murray noted.
Murray said part of the motive in hyping up the threat of Islamic terrorism in Uzbekistan through forced confessions was to ensure the country remained on-side in the war on terror, so that the pipeline could be built.
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