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pencilneck.
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August 29, 2012 at 8:21 AM #750850August 29, 2012 at 5:12 PM #750888
CA renter
Participant[quote=no_such_reality]Detroit.
CAR, that is the one word rebuttal of your position. Detroit is what happens when there are no investors. You can buy houses in Detroit for less than $10,000. And no they aren’t gutted, bombed, or shredded.
You can buy beautiful little old and perfectly livable homes for less than the price of a new car, in a fairly decent neighborhood.
Most are going to get abandoned, gutted and have the copper pipes and wires ripped out of the walls for salvage though.
As for history, let me some human history of the last 50,000 years up for you. It is roughly the following:
I am the leader, I am the anointed of god, you will do as I say or I will have you killed. I think that land over there looks good, we will go take it because our fist are stronger than their fist.
Or maybe just go watch a chimp troop hunt down a baby chimp of another troop for a protein snack.[/quote]
Detroits problems have nothing to do with a lack of real estate investors. Detroit has been decimated by the destruction of the American manufacturing base. They are at ground zero.
As a matter of fact, RE investors have been swarming around Detroit for a few years now.
http://www.nuwireinvestor.com/articles/rediscovering-detroit-real-estate-51708.aspx
Surprise, surprise, these RE “investors” still haven’t managed to bring back the manufacturing jobs. Go figure.
As for the “human history” you’ve noted; the reason why certain groups have been able to take from the masses/workers/indigenous people is because **too much power/wealth was concentrated into too few hands.** It is the inequality between two groups that enables one to take advantage of the other. It’s the very reason why we have to be so vigilant against concentrations of power/wealth.
August 29, 2012 at 6:03 PM #750889no_such_reality
ParticipantExcept you are wrong. Detroit employment isbhigher thab when I lived there. Detroit itself not. The suburbs is a bigger sh*thole
August 29, 2012 at 9:35 PM #750898Participant[quote=no_such_reality]Except you are wrong. Detroit employment isbhigher thab when I lived there. Detroit itself not. The suburbs is a bigger sh*thole[/quote]
Not sure what you’re trying to say here. Can you clarify what you mean (with citations, facts, and data) that shows Detroit’s bad economy is due to the lack of RE investors instead of lost manufacturing jobs and all the support jobs related to manufacturing.
August 29, 2012 at 9:50 PM #750900ParticipantFact-based stuff, like this:
“New census figures for the Midwest U.S. state of Michigan show dramatic population declines. Michigan was the only state in the 2010 census to lose people. Its biggest city, Detroit, once the fourth largest in the nation, is now the 18th largest. That’s due in part to an exodus created by massive job losses in the automotive industry. Here’s a look at what the numbers mean for a city and region struggling through a housing and employment crisis.
With the loss of approximately 500,000 automotive jobs in the region during the past decade, Southeast Michigan Council of Governments Executive Director Paul Tait expected the 2010 census numbers to show some decline in Detroit’s population. “We expected much more around 750,000 people and it dropped down to just under 714,000 people. The magnitude of that surprised us.”
The population of the so-called Motor City is at its lowest in more than a century. More than 230,000 people left the city in the past decade. That 25-percent decline is one of the biggest on record for an urban area with a population of more than 100,000.
…
The dramatic exodus from a city that was once a symbol of America’s manufacturing boom has staggering implications for Detroit. Mayor David Bing said the low census figures will cost the city and the state of Michigan more money.“Every person that is counted in the census brings approximately $10,000 to Detroit over the next decade for schools, roads, hospitals, and social service programs like Medicaid. We are in a fiscal crisis and we have to fight for every dollar. We can not afford to let these results stand.”
Census figures questioned
…
But the city is unlikely to attract enough jobs to once again see 2 million people filling the streets of Detroit, the population of the Motor City during its peak in 1950.”
———————
The city lost almost 65% of its population over the past ~60 years, primarily because of the loss of good manufacturing jobs. That just might have some effect on a city’s economy, don’t you think?
August 29, 2012 at 10:33 PM #750901bearishgurl
Participant[quote=CA renter]Fact-based stuff, like this:
[clip]
The city lost almost 65% of its population over the past ~60 years, primarily because of the loss of good manufacturing jobs. That just might have some effect on a city’s economy, don’t you think?[/quote]
Excellent post, CAR. Filling in for NSR’s incomprehensible gibberish, I thank you for your factual research. A lot of people don’t really understand that moving a large portion of “American made” vehicle parts mfg and even vehicle assembly overseas had the effect of decimating the stronghold of US automotive-worker unions.
But, of course, who needs unions?? I guess “no one” but the ~500K longtime US automotive workers who lost their jobs in Detroit in the last decade :={
I don’t think the Chinese, Indonesian, Indian and Mexican workers likely making $8-22 per day toiling over manufacturing “American” auto parts and vehicles (sans OSHA, of course) are going to be able to help put “Detroit” back on the map :=0
Maybe southern MI can get some more ski resorts (is it hilly enough?) or ice skate parks operating to help boost the local economy there.
August 29, 2012 at 10:48 PM #750902ParticipantQuestion for the Piggs:
Is the fact that US automakers are getting their labor MUCH cheaper (than when their vehicle parts manufacturing and vehicle assembly was done solely in the US) causing them to pass those savings onto the US consumers who buy their vehicles?
In other words, are “US branded” vehicles cheaper now than they were ten years ago?
Or is the higher price today being eaten up by shipping costs (back to the US) of parts and/or completely assembled vehicles and increased profits to the automakers??
August 30, 2012 at 1:42 AM #750903Participant[quote=bearishgurl]Question for the Piggs:
Is the fact that US automakers are getting their labor MUCH cheaper (than when their vehicle parts manufacturing and vehicle assembly was done solely in the US) causing them to pass those savings onto the US consumers who buy their vehicles?
In other words, are “US branded” vehicles cheaper now than they were ten years ago?
Or is the higher price today being eaten up by shipping costs (back to the US) of parts and/or completely assembled vehicles and increased profits to the automakers??[/quote]
Thank you, BG, for bringing up this most important point. Too many folks were led to believe that off-shoring our jobs would lead to lower prices…and that there would be no negative consequences related to these moves. The unions knew better, and said so, but their voices were drowned out by powerful messages from the PTB that lulled the sheeple into thinking that unions were bad, and globalization was good.
Of course, corporate profit margins are doing just fine, and executive compensation is on fire, thanks to all their “talent”!
These same powerful voices are trying to convince the sheeple that getting rid of public unions will magically result in significantly lower taxes and a better way of life for Joe Sixpack…and that there will be no negative consequences. Sound familiar? Hopefully, people will start doing some research into the origins of the anti-labor movement before it’s too late. The people who were behind the decimation of private sector unions are the very same folks who are leading the attacks against the public sector unions, and they are NOT “taxpayer advocates.” They are anti-labor capitalists, and Mitt Romney (some of us would argue Obama, as well) is going to help them accelerate the widening of the wealth/income gap, and weaken the voice of labor.
August 30, 2012 at 6:13 AM #750904ParticipantCAR and BG, Detroit has lost population, but not jobs. Non-farm employment is just over 1.8 Million, nearly the same as it was in early 1990s (probably about a 50K decrease).
Even then, nice houses in safe neighborhoods were $30,000 or $40,000. And still are today and often far lower. The burbs, just fine, in spite of all those lost union jobs…
I’m not saying the bad economy is due to lack of RE investors, nice straw man argument. I’m saying the complete collapse of housing is due to nobody, not even investors, wanting to buy. This is in spite of the fact that in the general area, payroll is the same as it was in the early 90s. Yet population has shifted from Detroit.
BTW, I worked with those righteous auto-workers. Management was inept in tolerating the union bullsh*t on top of all the other stupid mistakes management made. I’ve literally seen entire assembly lines shutdown and the workforce stand and pick this backside while they wait for a union electrician to show up and push a reset button on a test spot. Everybody knows you push the reset button, but nobody does cause it’s an instant grievance. Woo-hoo! the lines down.
Well, looks like a whole lot of lines are down now. I’ve worked there, the union workers have reaped what they’ve sowed.
I know what killed Detroit’s industry, I lived in it. Inept management and a bunch of workers that took joy in ‘sticking it’ to the man by messing with the company and their products.
Top management needing $!00 Million pay days and line workers that are disgruntled at making $70,000 to put tires on.
August 30, 2012 at 9:41 AM #750912briansd1
GuestBG, cars today are not more expensive relative to income.
People drive nicer cars today, partly because of low interest rates and lower debt service.
I remember when I was growing up, people generally didn’t have such nice cars.
A Cadillac made you the man in town. When Lexus first came out, they were for “rich” folks. Big SUVs very only for people who had a need.
Nowadays, everybody has an SUV or a luxury car.
August 30, 2012 at 9:54 AM #750914Guest[quote=CA renter] The people who were behind the decimation of private sector unions are the very same folks who are leading the attacks against the public sector unions, and they are NOT “taxpayer advocates.” They are anti-labor capitalists, and Mitt Romney (some of us would argue Obama, as well) is going to help them accelerate the widening of the wealth/income gap, and weaken the voice of labor.[/quote]
CA renter, you should be blaming Reagan Democrats. Many of them were union members who voted for Reagan. I think the voters have has much responsibility as the leaders.
So considering how you feel, who are you going to vote for? Obama or Romney?
I just heard of an acquaintance who has been umemployed and living off of savings. He does not have health insurance but has cancer. He owns a house and has assets so he doesn’t qualify for any assistance. I heard that he’s looking to get treatment in Mexico or something… He’s a vociferous Republican. He made his bed, so he can lie in it now.
August 30, 2012 at 9:55 AM #750915SK in CV
Participant[quote=briansd1]
Nowadays, everybody has an SUV or a luxury car.[/quote]SUV’s have a highly efficient form factor for many people’s lifestyle. As do minivans. Like sedans and trucks, some are expensive, and some not so expensive. Why would you even mention them in the same sentence as luxury cars?
August 30, 2012 at 10:12 AM #750916Guest[quote=CA renter] They are anti-labor capitalists, and Mitt Romney (some of us would argue Obama, as well) is going to help them accelerate the widening of the wealth/income gap, and weaken the voice of labor.[/quote]
Apparently, you don’t buy into the right-wing narative that Obama is a “socialist” hell bent on confiscating everyone’s wealth.
If Obama’s brand of “socialism” encounters so much opposition, imagine how the pickfork peasants would rise up if they encountered “real socialism.”
August 30, 2012 at 10:18 AM #750917
CoronitaParticipant[quote=no_such_reality]CAR and BG, Detroit has lost population, but not jobs. Non-farm employment is just over 1.8 Million, nearly the same as it was in early 1990s (probably about a 50K decrease).
Even then, nice houses in safe neighborhoods were $30,000 or $40,000. And still are today and often far lower. The burbs, just fine, in spite of all those lost union jobs…
I’m not saying the bad economy is due to lack of RE investors, nice straw man argument. I’m saying the complete collapse of housing is due to nobody, not even investors, wanting to buy. This is in spite of the fact that in the general area, payroll is the same as it was in the early 90s. Yet population has shifted from Detroit.
BTW, I worked with those righteous auto-workers. Management was inept in tolerating the union bullsh*t on top of all the other stupid mistakes management made. I’ve literally seen entire assembly lines shutdown and the workforce stand and pick this backside while they wait for a union electrician to show up and push a reset button on a test spot. Everybody knows you push the reset button, but nobody does cause it’s an instant grievance. Woo-hoo! the lines down.
Well, looks like a whole lot of lines are down now. I’ve worked there, the union workers have reaped what they’ve sowed.
I know what killed Detroit’s industry, I lived in it. Inept management and a bunch of workers that took joy in ‘sticking it’ to the man by messing with the company and their products.
Top management needing $!00 Million pay days and line workers that are disgruntled at making $70,000 to put tires on.[/quote]
PM’ed you… In short, STFU… 🙂
August 30, 2012 at 12:20 PM #750922Participant[quote=flu][quote=no_such_reality]~US autoworker rant …[/quote]PM’ed you… In short, STFU… :)[/quote]
Thank you for beating me to the punch, flu 🙂
NSR, since you appear to have *experience* with US autoworkers, can you tell us if you were a former MI resident and/or a former autoworker?
And if there are just as many or more *jobs* in Detroit today, can you tell us what kind of jobs those are?
A few more questions here. If you know, do the bulk of jobs in Detroit which replaced autoworker jobs have health benefits, vacation and retirement benefits …. even 401K’s?? Are they full-time and/or do they pay enough to support at least half of a family of four (assuming the other parent is also employed)? Can these *new jobholders* qualify for a $40K to $140K mortgage to buy one of those plentiful cheap houses in Detroit, assuming little to no other debt? Why don’t you tell us which companies moved into Detroit in recent years and what kinds of employment opportunities they offer??
[quote=no_such_reality]I’ve been hampered by being unwilling to buy a condo or townhome. Nor will I buy a SFR with an Association. I’ve had enough of those as a owner and renter to see how badly they go.[/quote]
http://piggington.com/getting_a_mortgage_for_investment_property_these_days
NSR, since you’re so familiar with Detroit and all those cheap available older SFRs with NO ASSN, why aren’t you buying one or more for investment purposes? Could it be that you don’t think prospective tenants there make enough money to consistently afford the rent? Or does the Detroit area’s 16.9% rental vacancy rate have you on the sidelines?
Detroit was one of the hardest-hit cities in the recession, and with an unemployment rate of 9.9 percent as of May, it’s little wonder that its 16.9 percent rental vacancy rate is the second highest in the country. Surprisingly, though, the homeowner vacancy rate remains below the 75 largest metro area’s average of 2.18 percent. According to the Census Bureau, at the end of 2011, Detroit had a gross vacancy rate of 12.2 percent, a level the city has virtually maintained since 2006.
http://realestate.yahoo.com/news/america-s-emptiest-cities–2012.html
NSR, if the above conditions are your reasons for not purchasing Detroit investment RE, why do you think they are present today?
Just seeking your *expert* opinion, NSR . . . or rather, perhaps that of a REAL expert on Detroit rentals and the plight of the US autoworker today.
http://piggington.com/can_i_ask_rental_applicants_old_landlord_if_he_paid_rent_ontime
[quote=birmingplumb]…Meanwhile the Big 3 plant I work at has 10,000 OSHA violations, was built without any permits and despite my letters, grievances and outrage-continues to produce cars all in the name of saving the middle class.
So prosecutor discretion ala Janet Napalitano and the “dream act”is all I can think of…[/quote]http://piggington.com/unpermitted_work_on_older_homes
birmingplumb, I know you’re busy trying to find and keep reliable tenants when not actually toiling in the trenches (literally speaking) in your “day job” but if you happen to see this thread, please chime in. Your “expert opinion” is needed here …. and the Piggs are also wondering just how much money the head of your “Big 3” plant made in 2011. Thanks for any help 🙂
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