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November 6, 2009 at 4:24 PM #479473November 6, 2009 at 4:26 PM #478642
afx114
ParticipantI am not meaning to knock your beliefs, I am trying to understand them. I was not comparing you to astrologists, I was simply using them as one of many examples of the flaws of faith. Don’t take it personal. I am asking you to explain your beliefs to me, while at the same time explaining my beliefs to you. You’ve claimed that faith and science are mutually supportive, but you haven’t shown how.
Perhaps we are using different definitions of the words. What is your definition of faith? To me, faith is a default position to fall back on when one is unable to prove something. In other words: something is true because I believe it to be, even though I can’t prove it. I fail to see how me believing that something is true has any bearing on whether or not it is actually true.
I can have faith that the earth is flat or that the sun revolves around the earth or that 1+1=3, but science will dispute those faiths.
I can have faith that the earth is round or that the earth revolves around the sun or that 1+1=2, but science transforms those faiths into facts. Once my “faiths” are proven as facts, faith no longer serves a purpose. Faith is not needed for facts, because.. well.. they are facts. They are true whether I believe them or not.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]There is a divine “spark” in all of us, an undeniable yearning to know, which is what confirms the existence of God, since that quest for knowledge is a desire to unite with our creator.[/quote]
Are you arguing that human desire for knowledge is proof of God? Maybe there’s a simpler answer. Maybe our quest for knowledge is an evolutionary mechanism for increasing our chances of survival. eg: our knowledge of agricultural techniques didn’t arise because of some spiritual “spark” within humanity. It arose because we needed more food in order to survive as a growing population.
Like religion, I believe that curiosity is a biological tool used to help us cope and survive in a very dangerous world and universe. I will agree with you that we have a special yearning to know and understand our place in the cosmos, but I believe that this is a fundamental part of our survival rather than a quest to get closer to our supposed creator.
November 6, 2009 at 4:26 PM #478811ParticipantI am not meaning to knock your beliefs, I am trying to understand them. I was not comparing you to astrologists, I was simply using them as one of many examples of the flaws of faith. Don’t take it personal. I am asking you to explain your beliefs to me, while at the same time explaining my beliefs to you. You’ve claimed that faith and science are mutually supportive, but you haven’t shown how.
Perhaps we are using different definitions of the words. What is your definition of faith? To me, faith is a default position to fall back on when one is unable to prove something. In other words: something is true because I believe it to be, even though I can’t prove it. I fail to see how me believing that something is true has any bearing on whether or not it is actually true.
I can have faith that the earth is flat or that the sun revolves around the earth or that 1+1=3, but science will dispute those faiths.
I can have faith that the earth is round or that the earth revolves around the sun or that 1+1=2, but science transforms those faiths into facts. Once my “faiths” are proven as facts, faith no longer serves a purpose. Faith is not needed for facts, because.. well.. they are facts. They are true whether I believe them or not.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]There is a divine “spark” in all of us, an undeniable yearning to know, which is what confirms the existence of God, since that quest for knowledge is a desire to unite with our creator.[/quote]
Are you arguing that human desire for knowledge is proof of God? Maybe there’s a simpler answer. Maybe our quest for knowledge is an evolutionary mechanism for increasing our chances of survival. eg: our knowledge of agricultural techniques didn’t arise because of some spiritual “spark” within humanity. It arose because we needed more food in order to survive as a growing population.
Like religion, I believe that curiosity is a biological tool used to help us cope and survive in a very dangerous world and universe. I will agree with you that we have a special yearning to know and understand our place in the cosmos, but I believe that this is a fundamental part of our survival rather than a quest to get closer to our supposed creator.
November 6, 2009 at 4:26 PM #479177ParticipantI am not meaning to knock your beliefs, I am trying to understand them. I was not comparing you to astrologists, I was simply using them as one of many examples of the flaws of faith. Don’t take it personal. I am asking you to explain your beliefs to me, while at the same time explaining my beliefs to you. You’ve claimed that faith and science are mutually supportive, but you haven’t shown how.
Perhaps we are using different definitions of the words. What is your definition of faith? To me, faith is a default position to fall back on when one is unable to prove something. In other words: something is true because I believe it to be, even though I can’t prove it. I fail to see how me believing that something is true has any bearing on whether or not it is actually true.
I can have faith that the earth is flat or that the sun revolves around the earth or that 1+1=3, but science will dispute those faiths.
I can have faith that the earth is round or that the earth revolves around the sun or that 1+1=2, but science transforms those faiths into facts. Once my “faiths” are proven as facts, faith no longer serves a purpose. Faith is not needed for facts, because.. well.. they are facts. They are true whether I believe them or not.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]There is a divine “spark” in all of us, an undeniable yearning to know, which is what confirms the existence of God, since that quest for knowledge is a desire to unite with our creator.[/quote]
Are you arguing that human desire for knowledge is proof of God? Maybe there’s a simpler answer. Maybe our quest for knowledge is an evolutionary mechanism for increasing our chances of survival. eg: our knowledge of agricultural techniques didn’t arise because of some spiritual “spark” within humanity. It arose because we needed more food in order to survive as a growing population.
Like religion, I believe that curiosity is a biological tool used to help us cope and survive in a very dangerous world and universe. I will agree with you that we have a special yearning to know and understand our place in the cosmos, but I believe that this is a fundamental part of our survival rather than a quest to get closer to our supposed creator.
November 6, 2009 at 4:26 PM #479258ParticipantI am not meaning to knock your beliefs, I am trying to understand them. I was not comparing you to astrologists, I was simply using them as one of many examples of the flaws of faith. Don’t take it personal. I am asking you to explain your beliefs to me, while at the same time explaining my beliefs to you. You’ve claimed that faith and science are mutually supportive, but you haven’t shown how.
Perhaps we are using different definitions of the words. What is your definition of faith? To me, faith is a default position to fall back on when one is unable to prove something. In other words: something is true because I believe it to be, even though I can’t prove it. I fail to see how me believing that something is true has any bearing on whether or not it is actually true.
I can have faith that the earth is flat or that the sun revolves around the earth or that 1+1=3, but science will dispute those faiths.
I can have faith that the earth is round or that the earth revolves around the sun or that 1+1=2, but science transforms those faiths into facts. Once my “faiths” are proven as facts, faith no longer serves a purpose. Faith is not needed for facts, because.. well.. they are facts. They are true whether I believe them or not.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]There is a divine “spark” in all of us, an undeniable yearning to know, which is what confirms the existence of God, since that quest for knowledge is a desire to unite with our creator.[/quote]
Are you arguing that human desire for knowledge is proof of God? Maybe there’s a simpler answer. Maybe our quest for knowledge is an evolutionary mechanism for increasing our chances of survival. eg: our knowledge of agricultural techniques didn’t arise because of some spiritual “spark” within humanity. It arose because we needed more food in order to survive as a growing population.
Like religion, I believe that curiosity is a biological tool used to help us cope and survive in a very dangerous world and universe. I will agree with you that we have a special yearning to know and understand our place in the cosmos, but I believe that this is a fundamental part of our survival rather than a quest to get closer to our supposed creator.
November 6, 2009 at 4:26 PM #479478ParticipantI am not meaning to knock your beliefs, I am trying to understand them. I was not comparing you to astrologists, I was simply using them as one of many examples of the flaws of faith. Don’t take it personal. I am asking you to explain your beliefs to me, while at the same time explaining my beliefs to you. You’ve claimed that faith and science are mutually supportive, but you haven’t shown how.
Perhaps we are using different definitions of the words. What is your definition of faith? To me, faith is a default position to fall back on when one is unable to prove something. In other words: something is true because I believe it to be, even though I can’t prove it. I fail to see how me believing that something is true has any bearing on whether or not it is actually true.
I can have faith that the earth is flat or that the sun revolves around the earth or that 1+1=3, but science will dispute those faiths.
I can have faith that the earth is round or that the earth revolves around the sun or that 1+1=2, but science transforms those faiths into facts. Once my “faiths” are proven as facts, faith no longer serves a purpose. Faith is not needed for facts, because.. well.. they are facts. They are true whether I believe them or not.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]There is a divine “spark” in all of us, an undeniable yearning to know, which is what confirms the existence of God, since that quest for knowledge is a desire to unite with our creator.[/quote]
Are you arguing that human desire for knowledge is proof of God? Maybe there’s a simpler answer. Maybe our quest for knowledge is an evolutionary mechanism for increasing our chances of survival. eg: our knowledge of agricultural techniques didn’t arise because of some spiritual “spark” within humanity. It arose because we needed more food in order to survive as a growing population.
Like religion, I believe that curiosity is a biological tool used to help us cope and survive in a very dangerous world and universe. I will agree with you that we have a special yearning to know and understand our place in the cosmos, but I believe that this is a fundamental part of our survival rather than a quest to get closer to our supposed creator.
November 6, 2009 at 4:34 PM #478647briansd1
Guest[quote=afx114]
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to knock your or anyone else’s personal beliefs. I believe that religion plays a purpose (both good and bad) for humanity. My grandma goes to church every Sunday and it brings her a sense of purpose and peace, and that’s all that really matters. But in the grand scheme of things, I believe that it all ends up being a veil over the truths that people are either too lazy or scared to find out. The truth that we could be wiped out at any moment by an asteroid, gamma ray, galaxy collision, or a million other ways and all of our beliefs and spirituality will be wiped off the face of the universe along with us. Poof – back into the primordial space dust from which we all came.Wait a minute… ashes to ashes, dust to dust. HOLY SHIT! Now I get it!!! :)[/quote]
That’s exactly how I feel.
My cousin buried out our grandma in an elaborate Church service. That’s fine if that makes her feel better. I attended the funeral and it was well-done.
It’s fine that my cousin spent her own money… but I personally don’t see the point of feeding the church.
Some in-laws buried a young guy who was into drugs and alcohol. He got into a car accident and killed himself. The family spent big money on the funeral. But when the guy was alive he didn’t even have gas money. Nobody helped him when he needed help the most. Better to spend money on the living than to feed the church after the guy dies.
November 6, 2009 at 4:34 PM #478816Guest[quote=afx114]
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to knock your or anyone else’s personal beliefs. I believe that religion plays a purpose (both good and bad) for humanity. My grandma goes to church every Sunday and it brings her a sense of purpose and peace, and that’s all that really matters. But in the grand scheme of things, I believe that it all ends up being a veil over the truths that people are either too lazy or scared to find out. The truth that we could be wiped out at any moment by an asteroid, gamma ray, galaxy collision, or a million other ways and all of our beliefs and spirituality will be wiped off the face of the universe along with us. Poof – back into the primordial space dust from which we all came.Wait a minute… ashes to ashes, dust to dust. HOLY SHIT! Now I get it!!! :)[/quote]
That’s exactly how I feel.
My cousin buried out our grandma in an elaborate Church service. That’s fine if that makes her feel better. I attended the funeral and it was well-done.
It’s fine that my cousin spent her own money… but I personally don’t see the point of feeding the church.
Some in-laws buried a young guy who was into drugs and alcohol. He got into a car accident and killed himself. The family spent big money on the funeral. But when the guy was alive he didn’t even have gas money. Nobody helped him when he needed help the most. Better to spend money on the living than to feed the church after the guy dies.
November 6, 2009 at 4:34 PM #479182Guest[quote=afx114]
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to knock your or anyone else’s personal beliefs. I believe that religion plays a purpose (both good and bad) for humanity. My grandma goes to church every Sunday and it brings her a sense of purpose and peace, and that’s all that really matters. But in the grand scheme of things, I believe that it all ends up being a veil over the truths that people are either too lazy or scared to find out. The truth that we could be wiped out at any moment by an asteroid, gamma ray, galaxy collision, or a million other ways and all of our beliefs and spirituality will be wiped off the face of the universe along with us. Poof – back into the primordial space dust from which we all came.Wait a minute… ashes to ashes, dust to dust. HOLY SHIT! Now I get it!!! :)[/quote]
That’s exactly how I feel.
My cousin buried out our grandma in an elaborate Church service. That’s fine if that makes her feel better. I attended the funeral and it was well-done.
It’s fine that my cousin spent her own money… but I personally don’t see the point of feeding the church.
Some in-laws buried a young guy who was into drugs and alcohol. He got into a car accident and killed himself. The family spent big money on the funeral. But when the guy was alive he didn’t even have gas money. Nobody helped him when he needed help the most. Better to spend money on the living than to feed the church after the guy dies.
November 6, 2009 at 4:34 PM #479263Guest[quote=afx114]
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to knock your or anyone else’s personal beliefs. I believe that religion plays a purpose (both good and bad) for humanity. My grandma goes to church every Sunday and it brings her a sense of purpose and peace, and that’s all that really matters. But in the grand scheme of things, I believe that it all ends up being a veil over the truths that people are either too lazy or scared to find out. The truth that we could be wiped out at any moment by an asteroid, gamma ray, galaxy collision, or a million other ways and all of our beliefs and spirituality will be wiped off the face of the universe along with us. Poof – back into the primordial space dust from which we all came.Wait a minute… ashes to ashes, dust to dust. HOLY SHIT! Now I get it!!! :)[/quote]
That’s exactly how I feel.
My cousin buried out our grandma in an elaborate Church service. That’s fine if that makes her feel better. I attended the funeral and it was well-done.
It’s fine that my cousin spent her own money… but I personally don’t see the point of feeding the church.
Some in-laws buried a young guy who was into drugs and alcohol. He got into a car accident and killed himself. The family spent big money on the funeral. But when the guy was alive he didn’t even have gas money. Nobody helped him when he needed help the most. Better to spend money on the living than to feed the church after the guy dies.
November 6, 2009 at 4:34 PM #479483Guest[quote=afx114]
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to knock your or anyone else’s personal beliefs. I believe that religion plays a purpose (both good and bad) for humanity. My grandma goes to church every Sunday and it brings her a sense of purpose and peace, and that’s all that really matters. But in the grand scheme of things, I believe that it all ends up being a veil over the truths that people are either too lazy or scared to find out. The truth that we could be wiped out at any moment by an asteroid, gamma ray, galaxy collision, or a million other ways and all of our beliefs and spirituality will be wiped off the face of the universe along with us. Poof – back into the primordial space dust from which we all came.Wait a minute… ashes to ashes, dust to dust. HOLY SHIT! Now I get it!!! :)[/quote]
That’s exactly how I feel.
My cousin buried out our grandma in an elaborate Church service. That’s fine if that makes her feel better. I attended the funeral and it was well-done.
It’s fine that my cousin spent her own money… but I personally don’t see the point of feeding the church.
Some in-laws buried a young guy who was into drugs and alcohol. He got into a car accident and killed himself. The family spent big money on the funeral. But when the guy was alive he didn’t even have gas money. Nobody helped him when he needed help the most. Better to spend money on the living than to feed the church after the guy dies.
November 6, 2009 at 4:36 PM #478652Participant[quote=CricketOnTheHearth]If anything, the more we know about how such things work, the more we can fall in awe of them, and to me that is spirituality.[/quote]
I agree with your take on the “awe” of the world, and I suppose by your definition that would make me spiritual. Unfortunately “spiritual” has a root word that is difficult for me to reconcile. I find beauty in the fact that something like an ant can come to exist without the hand of a magic “spirit” making it be.
November 6, 2009 at 4:36 PM #478821Participant[quote=CricketOnTheHearth]If anything, the more we know about how such things work, the more we can fall in awe of them, and to me that is spirituality.[/quote]
I agree with your take on the “awe” of the world, and I suppose by your definition that would make me spiritual. Unfortunately “spiritual” has a root word that is difficult for me to reconcile. I find beauty in the fact that something like an ant can come to exist without the hand of a magic “spirit” making it be.
November 6, 2009 at 4:36 PM #479187Participant[quote=CricketOnTheHearth]If anything, the more we know about how such things work, the more we can fall in awe of them, and to me that is spirituality.[/quote]
I agree with your take on the “awe” of the world, and I suppose by your definition that would make me spiritual. Unfortunately “spiritual” has a root word that is difficult for me to reconcile. I find beauty in the fact that something like an ant can come to exist without the hand of a magic “spirit” making it be.
November 6, 2009 at 4:36 PM #479268Participant[quote=CricketOnTheHearth]If anything, the more we know about how such things work, the more we can fall in awe of them, and to me that is spirituality.[/quote]
I agree with your take on the “awe” of the world, and I suppose by your definition that would make me spiritual. Unfortunately “spiritual” has a root word that is difficult for me to reconcile. I find beauty in the fact that something like an ant can come to exist without the hand of a magic “spirit” making it be.
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