The cost of an Ivy League undergrad degree next year….

[bearishgurl]

[quote=CA renter]…It’s been a long time but, IIRC, we had similar requirements when I transferred from a CC to a CSU back in the day. I’ve reviewed the new requirements for the transfer students, and they don’t seem that arduous. Students just need to stay on top of things, and everything should turn out okay.[/quote]

Well, CAR, I agree that the CSU had transfer requirements from CC back in the day, but I had a lot of co-workers in the ’80’s and ’90’s who were taking night classes at City College after work (it was just a mile down the street from work). Most took 1-2 classes at a time year-round and got their Associate Degree in about five years. HOWEVER, the ones who chose to later transfer to SDSU were able to major in Paralegal Studies, Account Clerk and other occupational areas at CC and transfer their entire 60 semester credits from CC into SDSU. Not only did they earn an associate degree but they got credit for EVERYTHING they took in CC, as long as it was “academic,” (not PE activity class, music or dance, etc). I even had a couple of co-workers who never finished CC and were able to transfer just 24-54 semester units from CC into SDSU and continued on with their Bachelor degree work.

None of this is possible anymore.

Not only was SDSU much easier for a matriculating student to get into back then, it was much easier to be admitted, even undeclared … to later pigeonhole yourself into a degree program after completing more GEs there. This is not so anymore, due to impaction of all its degree programs.

The CSU is now very, very picky as to which GEs they will accept from CC, depending on major declared and also campus. Some campuses are pickier than others depending on what programs they offer and/or level of impaction in their degree programs.

As you will see from the website I furnished here, each campus has their own criteria for transfer into their own degree programs. Some campuses have the same CC classwork required for transfer into the same degree programs and some campuses with those same degree programs have slightly different criteria.

Ex: compare CSUN’s “Accountancy” program to most of the rest of the CSU campus’ “Bus Admin – Acct Option” programs.

Not only should today’s freshman applicant declare a major upon applying with CSU Mentor, they should declare a second choice major as well. It is very possible that if they are admitted to a campus for their second-choice major that after they matriculate and keep up their GPA, some other party-animal student who was accepted into their first-choice program will fail and/or be forced to withdraw from their degree program. The advising mechanisms are now in place at the CSU to catch these “borderline” students at the freshman/soph level, force them to remediate their GPA is only 1-2 semesters/quarters, and if unsuccessful, force them out of their degree programs and then eventually out of the university. This makes room for successful peer-students (of the same graduating year) to usurp these coveted slots by their junior year.

For instance, a prospective freshman applies to CSU Mentor declaring Bus Admin – Acct as their first choice major and Bus Admin – Finance as their second choice major. They are accepted to a CSU campus for Bus Admin – Finance and decide to take that slot. Since there are eight Bus Admin degree programs at the CSU, every CSU Bus Admin student is required to take the same GEs and (200-level) “core” classes. Our sample freshman is doing well in their GE’s for their Bus Admin – Finance Degree and meets with their advisor in the business dept early on as a freshman to waitlist themselves for a Bus Admin Acct slot to open up by the time they reach Junior status. They are informed before the holiday break their soph year that a Bus Admin – Acct slot is now open and given a few days to accept/reject.

This extra advising (requiring extra advisors in each dept strictly for processing borderline GPA students and those students placed on academic probation) is a major factor in impaction of many degree programs at the CSU. There is a bit more individual attention available to matriculating students now due to (heavily publicized) low graduation rates of entering freshman at most CSU campuses in recent years and also due to lack of staff at the 300-400 level classes in many programs, causing students to remain juniors and seniors for 3-5 years. Due to state budget cuts, the CSU couldn’t replace all of the (retiring) staff in the last 15 years so they just reduced the amount of slots available in each program in order to maintain (timely) graduation rates.

There are also more stopgaps at the CSU in place today to prevent continuing students from registering for classes for the next term, even if paid in full. Advisor holds are more common, and the student with a “hold” on their record reporting to an advisor must be able to demonstrate through their actions that they are currently in the process of remediating their GPA before the hold will be lifted. In other words, your student can’t fail or withdraw/fail from a required or core class and tell themselves that they’ll “worry about this later.” They must immediately sign up to repeat the class in the very next term.

After carefully reviewing all the registrar policies, I learned that the way the CSU operates has changed a lot in the last ten years and even more in the last 1-3 years. Given my lo-o-o-ng experience with other kid(s) previously in the “system,” I think these changes are for the better.

I also want to add that I think many San Diegan parents and their HS students (both on and off this board) are too “picky” as to location of their UC/CSU choice campus. Unless your student has a 4.0+ GPA and has successfully completed at least 5 AP classes in HS, they (and you) need to stay realistic and flexible as to location of campus which your student will accept an offer of admission. You may be pleasantly surprised at all the *new* amenities now offered to students on campuses located in CA’s “armpit.” And you’ll be happier to find that housing costs are very reasonable (compared to SD’s) around some of these UC/CSU campuses! Unless your student has the qualifications to be considered for admission into Cal or UCLA (the CA “flagships”), or, to a lesser extent, Cal Poly SLO, the difference in the “prestige factor” of a diploma from the remaining UC/CSU campuses is negligible, depending on major, imho.

Your student is going to graduate and likely leave the area of his/her campus for their first job, anyway. For these reasons, it doesn’t matter where they attend college as long as they get in. And once your student is accepted to one CSU campus, they should not attempt to transfer out to another CSU campus until they have completed the required units of GE’s because they will not be considered for admission. They may come home to SD during the holidays, summers, etc and “whine” to you how hot Fresno is but they need to commit to any CSU for two years. And of course, they should never withdraw unless they have already been admitted to another UC/CSU and have accepted that admission offer or they may find themselves out in the cold for at least one academic year, while they attempt to go through the whole application process again.

And no, my youngest is not attending a CSU in CA’s “armpit” but has several HS friends who are. They are attending their “second-choice campus” and will remain there for the duration.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=scaredyclassic]but here’s a contrarian plan.

JUST BORROW BOATLOADS OF MONEY.

in fact, try to maximize debt. assuming you and your family dont have much in the way of assets, it might not be irrational. With law school or med school, you might very well be able to climb up t the 400 or 500k in debt range.

then just put it all on IBR

(income based repayment).

basically, at huge debt levels, the gov. doesnt want you to defailt. there are all sorts of plans to stop defaulting, including IBR PAYE and public service forgivenemess.

IBR is based on income, its almost like a tax…but it takes the risk of the debt away from you, because your payment is only based on what you can pay.

of course, this is a giant governmental scam that only serves to prop up absurd tuition prices.
when the debt level gets high enough its the banks problems, not yours.

the main obstacle to this plan would be in not fretting over the debt, or, in the parlance of young debtors over at http://www.jdunderground.com , to “stop giving any fucks”.

its a daring, bold strategy, no t one i personally would have the cojones to engage in…[/quote]

scaredy, you must be aware that IBR is only “palatable” for those students who borrowed more than ~$75K total AND maintains a low annual income (<$25K?) for all 10.5 years after graduation (.5 year represents forbearance time immediately after graduation). Who is the h@ll would voluntarily work for peanuts that many years after spending a fortune on college and putting some or all of it on student loans?? It’s idiotic.

And if the individual in an IBR plan is married, they would have to file their taxes “married, filing separately” so that their spouse’s income isn’t added to theirs, rendering the IBR plan moot.

An IBR participant has to sign a release to have their annual tax returns reviewed and ALSO recertify periodically to remain on the plan.

In your case, scaredy, you were/are obviously eligible for some loan forgiveness for your 10+ years of FT public service. As it should be. You, of all public servants, have one of the hardest jobs in the world, imho.

I’m sure you’re aware that you could have made a LOT MORE $$ in private practice.

[bearishgurl]

If I had a student loan, I would rather haul a$$ and get it paid off in ten years, thereby paying the least amount of interest and be done with it.

Or pay it off with 10 years of FT public service (with the balance eventually “forgiven”), regardless if I qualified for IBR …. or not.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=flu][quote=scaredyclassic]but here’s a contrarian plan.

JUST BORROW BOATLOADS OF MONEY.

in fact, try to maximize debt. assuming you and your family dont have much in the way of assets, it might not be irrational. With law school or med school, you might very well be able to climb up t the 400 or 500k in debt range.

then just put it all on IBR

(income based repayment).

basically, at huge debt levels, the gov. doesnt want you to defailt. there are all sorts of plans to stop defaulting, including IBR PAYE and public service forgivenemess.

IBR is based on income, its almost like a tax…but it takes the risk of the debt away from you, because your payment is only based on what you can pay.

of course, this is a giant governmental scam that only serves to prop up absurd tuition prices.
when the debt level gets high enough its the banks problems, not yours.

the main obstacle to this plan would be in not fretting over the debt, or, in the parlance of young debtors over at http://www.jdunderground.com , to “stop giving any fucks”.

its a daring, bold strategy, no t one i personally would have the cojones to engage in…[/quote]

Unfortunately, that strategy would go against the grain of every bone in my body. Heck, I can’t even get enough cojones to take out a close to 0% loan if I were to buy a new car, all else being equal. Somehow, I don’t think my kid will be qualifying for financial assistance one way or the other. Heck, I didn’t even like having an outstanding balance on my HELOC for the past couple of months, even though rates are at 3% capped +3%, while the rental returns about 6-7%. Damn being financially responsible.[/quote]

flu, I won’t take out a ~0% auto loan either, because the new vehicle prices are too high. The best way to for your kid to get admitted to any UC/CSU, IMO (if you don’t have any legacies or are of cultures/nationalities that they are seeking for diversity purposes) is to NOT file a FAFSA. We never have and never will. A FAFSA seeking aid from the school complicates the admission process for the student, when their app should be considered on merit.

If you already know filing a FAFSA won’t do you or your student any good, then don’t file one.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=Gata]I’ve been following Pigginton’s blogs for some time — very informative and smart comments. I thought I would make my first comment on this topic, as we have basically re-designed our life around the outrageously high tuition costs in the US. For anyone who hasn’t, I highly recommend watching Ivory Tower, the CNN documentary about Ivy League v other schools – it basically supports the argument that Ivy League schools are overpriced, and I agree. I attended a top-tier law school and graduated with honors, finished my LLM with the highest GPA (for which I received an award), all debt free. Now we are focusing on UT Austin for our daughter, who has expressed an interest in pursuing an engineering degree. We’ve given up on UC, due to budget costs and the seemingly prevailing policy of accepting more out-of-staters who bring the bigger $$. UT Austin ranks 8th for engineering (not as high as UCB, but realistically I don’t think our daughter would get in with an 8% acceptance rate mostly met by out-of-staters or foreigners); it’s considered a “public ivy”, and tuition is only $10k/ year for engineering. We sold our San Diego home last year for asking price and bought a house in Austin to qualify for in-state tuition, where she/we will live during her college years. We managed to find a loophole to get an ag exemption on property taxes, which be in effect in 5 years, basically our current property taxes will finance her tuition. Assuming she gets accepted, her degree will be high quality, she will be debt free, and we can pass on real estate to her, which will provide a starting point for her life. And if she doesn’t get accepted into UT Austin, we could sell the house at a profit (it’s paid off) and pay her tuition wherever she ends up (including an ivy school if that was her choice). And my husband and I will retire in our home in HI knowing that our daughter will be financially stable and debt-free, which, to us, is more important than an Ivy League degree, but which doesn’t necessarily result from it. Most importantly, all this moving around was our daughter’s decision – she prefers HI and Austin over SD. Go figure…[/quote]

Hi Gata,

I have a few questions for you here …. to better clarify things:

You state you possess an LLM degree. Did you attend law school overseas, by chance?

Did you take and pass the bar exam in CA, and if so, did you give up your law practice or job in CA to move to TX? Will TX allow you to take the bar exam there or have you been able to find work there?

Do you feel you will be able to easily sell your TX home in ~5 years and recover the price you paid for it (plus selling costs) if you desire to do so after your daughter graduates from college?

Did your spouse have to accept less pay than what he was making in CA to accept a job in TX?

How many years before your daughter’s HS graduation did you move to TX in order to successfully establish residency for public university there … i.e. Dec of soph year, summer between soph/jr year, etc.

Will your daughter be a college freshman this fall (2015)?

Are you and/or your spouse still under the age of 50 years old?

****

Due to high property taxes in TX in relation to property value, you were fortunate to land that ag exemption, which might be able to be renewed, should you end up staying there. However, I’m not so sure about RE appreciation rates in Austin, TX, or even if there will be any appreciation going forward there.

Another thing I spotted from your post is that your daughter never got the chance to even apply to UC/CSU as a CA resident because by the time she could apply for college, she was already or soon to be a resident of TX. Gata, was your family aware of the ELC?

http://www.ucop.edu/student-affairs/programs-and-initiatives/undergraduate-admissions/eligibility-local-context.html

If your daughter scored in the top 9% of her CA HS graduating class, she would have been “guaranteed” a position at a UC. Granted, that campus may not have been her first choice, but she could try to transfer to her campus of choice in her second year for fall admission in her third year.

It just seems that you/she gave up on her UC dream too quickly and so she did not/could not even apply for admission.

I just have a hard time understanding why a parent would relocate their entire family to another state solely for college residency purposes when their kid doesn’t even have an admission offer yet.

Good luck to you and your family in TX. It’s not a bad place, by any means but it is a very different animal than CA.

[bearishgurl]

If Gata and her spouse established a home in TX AFTER their student rec’d an admission offer at Univ of TX, their student could have accepted and started the following fall as an out-of-state student. And she would have possibly qualified for in-state tuition by fall or winter of her sophomore year, due to her parents’ domicile. As it stands, the “Gatas” may have relocated 1700 miles for nothing. They don’t know yet.

[Coronita]

UT Austin is a great school. We’ve seen a lot of candidates from there back in the old QC days and even at my current company.

[FlyerInHi]

If you’re mobile and can vote with your feet, what’s wrong with moving?
People move all the time.

some Americans are moving yo Germany for the free education.

[FlyerInHi]

The education bubble won’t bust anytime soon.
Universities are like independent governments and they will find sources of revenue. In a global economy there will be customers willing to pay. The big reputable schools can draw from students from around the world.

Plus compared to other states, california is still a bargain

[Anonymous]

[quote=FlyerInHi]The education bubble won’t bust anytime soon.
Universities are like independent governments and they will find sources of revenue. In a global economy there will be customers willing to pay. The big reputable schools can draw from students from around the world.

Plus compared to other states, california is still a bargain[/quote]

All of your reasoning for why bubble won’t pop are moot. When student loan debt bubble pops, the entire industry will be hit. Just like the housing bubble, the main reason tuition is going through the roof is on account of easy financing.

Will it happen soon? Who knows. I don’t care, I have at least 15 years so I can wait it out. If it never pops (although it is a mathematical certainty that it will pop), there will always be relatively affordable education options, if that is what my kid wants to do.

[an]

Look at the curve of the historical data:
http://www.inflationdata.com/inflation/inflation_articles/Education_Inflation.asp

This cannot be sustainable. I think the original assumption of 4% inflation might be too low. It went up 2.5x between 2000-2011. So, if you take that same trajectory, then Ivy tuition would be around $157k/year. So, 4 year would cost ~$628k instead of $400k. Maybe it will flatten out from here. Who knows…

The number looks even worse when you go further back as your starting point: http://www.economist.com/node/16960438

[bearishgurl]

I wouldn’t have said this 4-5 years ago, because the CSU wasn’t faring too well, then. It was a mess, plain and simple … especially for juniors and seniors who played by the rules and expected to complete their upper-division coursework in a timely manner.

But it’s better now, and less campuses are “impacted” for fall 2015 than last year (for both freshmen and CC transfers):

http://www.calstate.edu/sas/impaction-campus-info.shtml

I did a few spot checks from the links on the chart (above) and noticed that, except for a handful of campuses (incl SDSU), I found less impacted programs than last year. Not sure if there were less applications submitted for fall 2015 or more matriculating freshmen/sophs weeded out (or soon to be weeded out) of popular programs this year but it looks pretty good.

And yes, FIH, the CSU is still a bargain, compared to tuition and fees for residents of out-of-state public universities. The UC has competitive tuition and fees with most other states. Overall, I think a CA public university diploma (in an occupational field) is still a good buy.

I just really believe an 18-year old is best served by leaving “home,” where they learn for themselves when their sheets and towels need washing and how to manage their money thru trial and error, etc. It’s part of the growing they do by leaving the nest and staying motivated to succeed in their studies w/o heli-parents dictating their every move. It’s also good for them to keep their own resumes updated and work a PT job with their classes (under 15 hrs wk).

So far, so good. I’m happy with the opportunities the CSU has provided my kids so far and happy with the level of self-sufficiency they acquired for being out on their own.

Staying in mom’s back bdrm while going to local CC, working PT at Pep Boys with their K-12 buds and showing up at all hours after partying all night is not the same thing as being on your own in another county …. even with parents’ support.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=FlyerInHi]The education bubble won’t bust anytime soon.
Universities are like independent governments and they will find sources of revenue. In a global economy there will be customers willing to pay. The big reputable schools can draw from students from around the world.

Plus compared to other states, california is still a bargain[/quote]

All true, FIH. I visited a few websites of both well-known private and public universities, all out of state. Most have current endowments (periodic and promised) of Billions of dollars (most of which is likely used to offer scholarships) – I saw between $2 and $9 billion and I only looked at about a dozen institutions. It’s astounding!!

It makes a ~$70M annual bequest from ONE donor for a CSU campus look puny by comparison.

Compared to a large public university, I think a private (Ivy?) student likely gets far more individual attention for the higher tuition and fees they are charged. That translates into higher rates of student success by catching the student in a net before they fail a class and having a much lower student-to-teacher and student-to-advisor ratio … among other perks and amenities.

You pay for what you get in this life. If you can afford it and your kid can get in, why not?

[bearishgurl]

[quote=deadzone]If both kids and parents actually want to live in Austin it makes sense. Not sure about this case.

I am fortunate my kid is only three so I don’t have to deal with this non-sense for a long time. Also, I fully expect that within the next 15 years this “Higher Education Bubble” will have burst.[/quote]

deadzone, if your kid is only 3, just put away the $ you can right now and chill. He/she will be able to get into a CA public university if they apply to several. You’ve got awhile before all his/her A-G requirements in HS become an issue as well as your student trying to raise their GPA and “look better” on college apps by taking AP classes. It’s a stressful jungle out there for CA public HS juniors and seniors but the schools do an AMAZING job of herding these kids through the system! The only advice I can give you and your kid is to stay flexible and apply for multiple campuses on the same common app. Also, if your kid shows an interest in UC by the time they’re 13-14, you might consider enrolling him/her in a HS where they have a good chance of qualifying for the ELC …. that is, where your kid will qualify for “guaranteed admission” to a UC (the applicant can’t choose the campus on their offer of admission) based upon scoring in the top 9% of his/her senior HS class. Considering the high percentage of OOS and OOC applicants the UC routinely accepts in lieu of in-state applicants (as Gata pointed out here), admission by ELC is very valuable! If offered admission by ELC, don’t ask questions, take it and don’t disappoint! Endeavor to do as well as you possibly can when you get there 🙂

[bearishgurl]

It takes a village to raise a college student.

[Author]

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