Be careful what you say on here…

[svelte]

Yet the argument I think that FLU and others were making to Core Client, was that … the base instinct that drove the purchases was one of being able to take advantage of a speculative housing market.

Ahhhh, but here’s the rub that nobody seems to bring up around here.

If buying a home in 03 to 05 to capture speculative home price increases was “taking advantage of” the market, then selling a home in 05 to 06 and renting for a few years to permanently capture those speculative home price increases is also “taking advantage of” the market and is just as wrong!!

Think about it.

(my opinion: neither is wrong in a free market economy. But if you think one is wrong, you’re pretty much backed into thinking the other is wrong too!)

[Coronita]

Ahhhh, but here's the rub that nobody seems to bring up around here.

If buying a home in 03 to 05 to capture speculative home price increases was "taking advantage of" the market, then selling a home in 05 to 06 and renting for a few years to permanently capture those speculative home price increases is also "taking advantage of" the market and is just as wrong!!

Think about it.

(my opinion: neither is wrong in a free market economy. But if you think one is wrong, you're pretty much backed into thinking the other is wrong too!)

 

Talking just strictly about speculation (not fraud). There is nothing wrong with speculation. And I would even argue greed isn't good if it's a motivation. THE point was as with everything….speculation has risks. If you're going to speculate on returns that seem above normal, there's got to be some risk, otherwise other people would be doing it….The issue that you hear time and time again is that people who took risk are now having a difficult time coming to terms when this go south. It's really no different from all those people who lose put all their money in the company's stock for which they work for. Yes, there is speculation if a CEO tells you that we're going to kick butt in the future. BUT you're really taking a huge risk by putting all your 401k into your company stock, buying additional shares with after tax dollars, etc. Just look what happened to those enron folks or those people at countrywide. Greed…No one was complaining when the stock was going through the roof. But when the crap hit the fan, and the stock tanks, everyone wants blood. People can't have it both ways.

FACT: SAFE investments give crappy returns. RISKY INVESTMENTS can yield high returns OR huge losses. As far as fraud. Yes it sucks. And no you can't completely prevent it. That's why if you're not sure about something, you can always say no. Why you would give a complete stranger power of attorney to move money to and from any of your accounts would be beyond me. If money needs to be moved, you do the moving.

As far as identity theft…We live in a society for which media constantly talk about identity theft, and ways to prevent it. There are plenty of vehicles to guard against id theft, and most of them are at no cost or low cost. I really hope those who have been subject to such crimes at least have learned now what you need to do to safeguard your identity. You know the common sense things such as you don't leave your door wide open in the middle of the night unlocked. and you don't leave your wallet outside in public view when you're not there.Your personal information is just as important. The fact the identity crime is growing faster than traditional bank robbing should give you a hit. It's far easier and more cost effective to steal people's identity than to physically rob a bank.

That's why I always recommend people getting a credit freeze. Costs $10 per credit agency, and well worth it. It's just far too easy for someone else to have your SSN.

 

BTW: if my memory serves me right. Whenever you sell a home, your SSN is on all the paperwork. And if I remember, that information was available to agents AND the person on the other side of the transaction (IE the buyer). When you rent, you're landlord will most likely require a credit check. Who's to say you should trust your ll?

 

I've attended quite a few "financial seminars"..And none of them have had any merits beyond them trying to sell you books,crap, spend on seminars, etc. They all start out about the same. It's a "free" training. Then they quickly tell you about their products/seminars/etc.

It even happens at the financial "management" firm. There was one company in Claremont that I attended. They entire premise was to get people to sell financial instruments to friends and relatives, similiar to a pyramid scheme. You bring in so many people/friends, and have them pay a fee to sell insurance, you get money from the fee and the insurance to sell. You had people who couldn't do basic math trying to sell variable annuities or worse buying variable annuities without really understanding what they are? I'm no genius, but considering I'm somewhat analytical, I couldn't even figure out some of the variable annuities terms and condition- so complicated. I'm sure they make sense for some people (IE rich people), but with the costs being so high, I couldn't figure out why technicians/assembly workers in that meeting who was having trouble making ends meet would buy a VAR. 

 

[img_assist|nid=5962|title=selfportrait|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=100|height=80]

—– Sour grapes for everyone!

[Coronita]

Ahhhh, but here's the rub that nobody seems to bring up around here.

If buying a home in 03 to 05 to capture speculative home price increases was "taking advantage of" the market, then selling a home in 05 to 06 and renting for a few years to permanently capture those speculative home price increases is also "taking advantage of" the market and is just as wrong!!

Think about it.

(my opinion: neither is wrong in a free market economy. But if you think one is wrong, you're pretty much backed into thinking the other is wrong too!)

 

Talking just strictly about speculation (not fraud). There is nothing wrong with speculation. And I would even argue greed isn't good if it's a motivation. THE point was as with everything….speculation has risks. If you're going to speculate on returns that seem above normal, there's got to be some risk, otherwise other people would be doing it….The issue that you hear time and time again is that people who took risk are now having a difficult time coming to terms when this go south. It's really no different from all those people who lose put all their money in the company's stock for which they work for. Yes, there is speculation if a CEO tells you that we're going to kick butt in the future. BUT you're really taking a huge risk by putting all your 401k into your company stock, buying additional shares with after tax dollars, etc. Just look what happened to those enron folks or those people at countrywide. Greed…No one was complaining when the stock was going through the roof. But when the crap hit the fan, and the stock tanks, everyone wants blood. People can't have it both ways.

FACT: SAFE investments give crappy returns. RISKY INVESTMENTS can yield high returns OR huge losses. As far as fraud. Yes it sucks. And no you can't completely prevent it. That's why if you're not sure about something, you can always say no. Why you would give a complete stranger power of attorney to move money to and from any of your accounts would be beyond me. If money needs to be moved, you do the moving.

As far as identity theft…We live in a society for which media constantly talk about identity theft, and ways to prevent it. There are plenty of vehicles to guard against id theft, and most of them are at no cost or low cost. I really hope those who have been subject to such crimes at least have learned now what you need to do to safeguard your identity. You know the common sense things such as you don't leave your door wide open in the middle of the night unlocked. and you don't leave your wallet outside in public view when you're not there.Your personal information is just as important. The fact the identity crime is growing faster than traditional bank robbing should give you a hit. It's far easier and more cost effective to steal people's identity than to physically rob a bank.

That's why I always recommend people getting a credit freeze. Costs $10 per credit agency, and well worth it. It's just far too easy for someone else to have your SSN.

 

BTW: if my memory serves me right. Whenever you sell a home, your SSN is on all the paperwork. And if I remember, that information was available to agents AND the person on the other side of the transaction (IE the buyer). When you rent, you're landlord will most likely require a credit check. Who's to say you should trust your ll?

 

I've attended quite a few "financial seminars"..And none of them have had any merits beyond them trying to sell you books,crap, spend on seminars, etc. They all start out about the same. It's a "free" training. Then they quickly tell you about their products/seminars/etc.

It even happens at the financial "management" firm. There was one company in Claremont that I attended. They entire premise was to get people to sell financial instruments to friends and relatives, similiar to a pyramid scheme. You bring in so many people/friends, and have them pay a fee to sell insurance, you get money from the fee and the insurance to sell. You had people who couldn't do basic math trying to sell variable annuities or worse buying variable annuities without really understanding what they are? I'm no genius, but considering I'm somewhat analytical, I couldn't even figure out some of the variable annuities terms and condition- so complicated. I'm sure they make sense for some people (IE rich people), but with the costs being so high, I couldn't figure out why technicians/assembly workers in that meeting who was having trouble making ends meet would buy a VAR. 

 

[img_assist|nid=5962|title=selfportrait|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=100|height=80]

—– Sour grapes for everyone!

[Coronita]

Ahhhh, but here's the rub that nobody seems to bring up around here.

If buying a home in 03 to 05 to capture speculative home price increases was "taking advantage of" the market, then selling a home in 05 to 06 and renting for a few years to permanently capture those speculative home price increases is also "taking advantage of" the market and is just as wrong!!

Think about it.

(my opinion: neither is wrong in a free market economy. But if you think one is wrong, you're pretty much backed into thinking the other is wrong too!)

 

Talking just strictly about speculation (not fraud). There is nothing wrong with speculation. And I would even argue greed isn't good if it's a motivation. THE point was as with everything….speculation has risks. If you're going to speculate on returns that seem above normal, there's got to be some risk, otherwise other people would be doing it….The issue that you hear time and time again is that people who took risk are now having a difficult time coming to terms when this go south. It's really no different from all those people who lose put all their money in the company's stock for which they work for. Yes, there is speculation if a CEO tells you that we're going to kick butt in the future. BUT you're really taking a huge risk by putting all your 401k into your company stock, buying additional shares with after tax dollars, etc. Just look what happened to those enron folks or those people at countrywide. Greed…No one was complaining when the stock was going through the roof. But when the crap hit the fan, and the stock tanks, everyone wants blood. People can't have it both ways.

FACT: SAFE investments give crappy returns. RISKY INVESTMENTS can yield high returns OR huge losses. As far as fraud. Yes it sucks. And no you can't completely prevent it. That's why if you're not sure about something, you can always say no. Why you would give a complete stranger power of attorney to move money to and from any of your accounts would be beyond me. If money needs to be moved, you do the moving.

As far as identity theft…We live in a society for which media constantly talk about identity theft, and ways to prevent it. There are plenty of vehicles to guard against id theft, and most of them are at no cost or low cost. I really hope those who have been subject to such crimes at least have learned now what you need to do to safeguard your identity. You know the common sense things such as you don't leave your door wide open in the middle of the night unlocked. and you don't leave your wallet outside in public view when you're not there.Your personal information is just as important. The fact the identity crime is growing faster than traditional bank robbing should give you a hit. It's far easier and more cost effective to steal people's identity than to physically rob a bank.

That's why I always recommend people getting a credit freeze. Costs $10 per credit agency, and well worth it. It's just far too easy for someone else to have your SSN.

 

BTW: if my memory serves me right. Whenever you sell a home, your SSN is on all the paperwork. And if I remember, that information was available to agents AND the person on the other side of the transaction (IE the buyer). When you rent, you're landlord will most likely require a credit check. Who's to say you should trust your ll?

 

I've attended quite a few "financial seminars"..And none of them have had any merits beyond them trying to sell you books,crap, spend on seminars, etc. They all start out about the same. It's a "free" training. Then they quickly tell you about their products/seminars/etc.

It even happens at the financial "management" firm. There was one company in Claremont that I attended. They entire premise was to get people to sell financial instruments to friends and relatives, similiar to a pyramid scheme. You bring in so many people/friends, and have them pay a fee to sell insurance, you get money from the fee and the insurance to sell. You had people who couldn't do basic math trying to sell variable annuities or worse buying variable annuities without really understanding what they are? I'm no genius, but considering I'm somewhat analytical, I couldn't even figure out some of the variable annuities terms and condition- so complicated. I'm sure they make sense for some people (IE rich people), but with the costs being so high, I couldn't figure out why technicians/assembly workers in that meeting who was having trouble making ends meet would buy a VAR. 

 

[img_assist|nid=5962|title=selfportrait|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=100|height=80]

—– Sour grapes for everyone!

[Coronita]

Ahhhh, but here's the rub that nobody seems to bring up around here.

If buying a home in 03 to 05 to capture speculative home price increases was "taking advantage of" the market, then selling a home in 05 to 06 and renting for a few years to permanently capture those speculative home price increases is also "taking advantage of" the market and is just as wrong!!

Think about it.

(my opinion: neither is wrong in a free market economy. But if you think one is wrong, you're pretty much backed into thinking the other is wrong too!)

 

Talking just strictly about speculation (not fraud). There is nothing wrong with speculation. And I would even argue greed isn't good if it's a motivation. THE point was as with everything….speculation has risks. If you're going to speculate on returns that seem above normal, there's got to be some risk, otherwise other people would be doing it….The issue that you hear time and time again is that people who took risk are now having a difficult time coming to terms when this go south. It's really no different from all those people who lose put all their money in the company's stock for which they work for. Yes, there is speculation if a CEO tells you that we're going to kick butt in the future. BUT you're really taking a huge risk by putting all your 401k into your company stock, buying additional shares with after tax dollars, etc. Just look what happened to those enron folks or those people at countrywide. Greed…No one was complaining when the stock was going through the roof. But when the crap hit the fan, and the stock tanks, everyone wants blood. People can't have it both ways.

FACT: SAFE investments give crappy returns. RISKY INVESTMENTS can yield high returns OR huge losses. As far as fraud. Yes it sucks. And no you can't completely prevent it. That's why if you're not sure about something, you can always say no. Why you would give a complete stranger power of attorney to move money to and from any of your accounts would be beyond me. If money needs to be moved, you do the moving.

As far as identity theft…We live in a society for which media constantly talk about identity theft, and ways to prevent it. There are plenty of vehicles to guard against id theft, and most of them are at no cost or low cost. I really hope those who have been subject to such crimes at least have learned now what you need to do to safeguard your identity. You know the common sense things such as you don't leave your door wide open in the middle of the night unlocked. and you don't leave your wallet outside in public view when you're not there.Your personal information is just as important. The fact the identity crime is growing faster than traditional bank robbing should give you a hit. It's far easier and more cost effective to steal people's identity than to physically rob a bank.

That's why I always recommend people getting a credit freeze. Costs $10 per credit agency, and well worth it. It's just far too easy for someone else to have your SSN.

 

BTW: if my memory serves me right. Whenever you sell a home, your SSN is on all the paperwork. And if I remember, that information was available to agents AND the person on the other side of the transaction (IE the buyer). When you rent, you're landlord will most likely require a credit check. Who's to say you should trust your ll?

 

I've attended quite a few "financial seminars"..And none of them have had any merits beyond them trying to sell you books,crap, spend on seminars, etc. They all start out about the same. It's a "free" training. Then they quickly tell you about their products/seminars/etc.

It even happens at the financial "management" firm. There was one company in Claremont that I attended. They entire premise was to get people to sell financial instruments to friends and relatives, similiar to a pyramid scheme. You bring in so many people/friends, and have them pay a fee to sell insurance, you get money from the fee and the insurance to sell. You had people who couldn't do basic math trying to sell variable annuities or worse buying variable annuities without really understanding what they are? I'm no genius, but considering I'm somewhat analytical, I couldn't even figure out some of the variable annuities terms and condition- so complicated. I'm sure they make sense for some people (IE rich people), but with the costs being so high, I couldn't figure out why technicians/assembly workers in that meeting who was having trouble making ends meet would buy a VAR. 

 

[img_assist|nid=5962|title=selfportrait|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=100|height=80]

—– Sour grapes for everyone!

[Coronita]

Ahhhh, but here's the rub that nobody seems to bring up around here.

If buying a home in 03 to 05 to capture speculative home price increases was "taking advantage of" the market, then selling a home in 05 to 06 and renting for a few years to permanently capture those speculative home price increases is also "taking advantage of" the market and is just as wrong!!

Think about it.

(my opinion: neither is wrong in a free market economy. But if you think one is wrong, you're pretty much backed into thinking the other is wrong too!)

 

Talking just strictly about speculation (not fraud). There is nothing wrong with speculation. And I would even argue greed isn't good if it's a motivation. THE point was as with everything….speculation has risks. If you're going to speculate on returns that seem above normal, there's got to be some risk, otherwise other people would be doing it….The issue that you hear time and time again is that people who took risk are now having a difficult time coming to terms when this go south. It's really no different from all those people who lose put all their money in the company's stock for which they work for. Yes, there is speculation if a CEO tells you that we're going to kick butt in the future. BUT you're really taking a huge risk by putting all your 401k into your company stock, buying additional shares with after tax dollars, etc. Just look what happened to those enron folks or those people at countrywide. Greed…No one was complaining when the stock was going through the roof. But when the crap hit the fan, and the stock tanks, everyone wants blood. People can't have it both ways.

FACT: SAFE investments give crappy returns. RISKY INVESTMENTS can yield high returns OR huge losses. As far as fraud. Yes it sucks. And no you can't completely prevent it. That's why if you're not sure about something, you can always say no. Why you would give a complete stranger power of attorney to move money to and from any of your accounts would be beyond me. If money needs to be moved, you do the moving.

As far as identity theft…We live in a society for which media constantly talk about identity theft, and ways to prevent it. There are plenty of vehicles to guard against id theft, and most of them are at no cost or low cost. I really hope those who have been subject to such crimes at least have learned now what you need to do to safeguard your identity. You know the common sense things such as you don't leave your door wide open in the middle of the night unlocked. and you don't leave your wallet outside in public view when you're not there.Your personal information is just as important. The fact the identity crime is growing faster than traditional bank robbing should give you a hit. It's far easier and more cost effective to steal people's identity than to physically rob a bank.

That's why I always recommend people getting a credit freeze. Costs $10 per credit agency, and well worth it. It's just far too easy for someone else to have your SSN.

 

BTW: if my memory serves me right. Whenever you sell a home, your SSN is on all the paperwork. And if I remember, that information was available to agents AND the person on the other side of the transaction (IE the buyer). When you rent, you're landlord will most likely require a credit check. Who's to say you should trust your ll?

 

I've attended quite a few "financial seminars"..And none of them have had any merits beyond them trying to sell you books,crap, spend on seminars, etc. They all start out about the same. It's a "free" training. Then they quickly tell you about their products/seminars/etc.

It even happens at the financial "management" firm. There was one company in Claremont that I attended. They entire premise was to get people to sell financial instruments to friends and relatives, similiar to a pyramid scheme. You bring in so many people/friends, and have them pay a fee to sell insurance, you get money from the fee and the insurance to sell. You had people who couldn't do basic math trying to sell variable annuities or worse buying variable annuities without really understanding what they are? I'm no genius, but considering I'm somewhat analytical, I couldn't even figure out some of the variable annuities terms and condition- so complicated. I'm sure they make sense for some people (IE rich people), but with the costs being so high, I couldn't figure out why technicians/assembly workers in that meeting who was having trouble making ends meet would buy a VAR. 

 

[img_assist|nid=5962|title=selfportrait|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=100|height=80]

—– Sour grapes for everyone!

[Anonymous]

Here’s a link to the filed Complaint….it should answer many questions.
http://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2008/comp20469.pdf

[Anonymous]

Here’s a link to the filed Complaint….it should answer many questions.
http://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2008/comp20469.pdf

[Anonymous]

Here’s a link to the filed Complaint….it should answer many questions.
http://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2008/comp20469.pdf

[Anonymous]

Here’s a link to the filed Complaint….it should answer many questions.
http://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2008/comp20469.pdf

[Anonymous]

Here’s a link to the filed Complaint….it should answer many questions.
http://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2008/comp20469.pdf

[nostradamus]

I looked at the complaint. Oh my goodness.

Oh page 10,

To invest with PWM, prospective investors had to adhere to PWM's "three rules," which required investors to (1) commit to a three year investment; (2) turn over all of their financial affairs to PWM; and (3) ask no questions of PWM management regarding the use of their funds or credit.

(2) Turn over all of their financial affairs with (3) no questions asked???

Did somebody bully you into doing this???

On page 13,

During the summer of 2006, PWM began applying for credit cards
and opening new lines of credit in the names of individual investors. Investors Were then contacted by a PWM representative, who directed the investor to draw down the maximum amount on all of the credit cards and to wire the funds to TRF or one of the Duncan Companies as an additional investment. Investors who questioned the wisdom of this strategy were told by, among others, McLeod, that PWM would stop making mortgage payments if they refused to cooperate.

Did you ask questions at that point? If not, at what point did you begin to ask questions? When the media broke the story? When did you realize you were duped?

I can understand lazy portfolio investors not asking a fund manager too many questions then finding out their 401(k) was raided. There is SEC protection for that though. I can't understand letting someone handle all your financial affairs (1) NO QUESTIONS ASKED and (2) BY DRAWING DOWN FUNDS FROM A CREDIT CARD.

Seriously, I'm sorry it happened but the world is not always a friendly place and you have learned a valuable lesson. Perhaps church/military/other were not the best places to learn about the realities of mankind.

 

[nostradamus]

I looked at the complaint. Oh my goodness.

Oh page 10,

To invest with PWM, prospective investors had to adhere to PWM's "three rules," which required investors to (1) commit to a three year investment; (2) turn over all of their financial affairs to PWM; and (3) ask no questions of PWM management regarding the use of their funds or credit.

(2) Turn over all of their financial affairs with (3) no questions asked???

Did somebody bully you into doing this???

On page 13,

During the summer of 2006, PWM began applying for credit cards
and opening new lines of credit in the names of individual investors. Investors Were then contacted by a PWM representative, who directed the investor to draw down the maximum amount on all of the credit cards and to wire the funds to TRF or one of the Duncan Companies as an additional investment. Investors who questioned the wisdom of this strategy were told by, among others, McLeod, that PWM would stop making mortgage payments if they refused to cooperate.

Did you ask questions at that point? If not, at what point did you begin to ask questions? When the media broke the story? When did you realize you were duped?

I can understand lazy portfolio investors not asking a fund manager too many questions then finding out their 401(k) was raided. There is SEC protection for that though. I can't understand letting someone handle all your financial affairs (1) NO QUESTIONS ASKED and (2) BY DRAWING DOWN FUNDS FROM A CREDIT CARD.

Seriously, I'm sorry it happened but the world is not always a friendly place and you have learned a valuable lesson. Perhaps church/military/other were not the best places to learn about the realities of mankind.

 

[nostradamus]

I looked at the complaint. Oh my goodness.

Oh page 10,

To invest with PWM, prospective investors had to adhere to PWM's "three rules," which required investors to (1) commit to a three year investment; (2) turn over all of their financial affairs to PWM; and (3) ask no questions of PWM management regarding the use of their funds or credit.

(2) Turn over all of their financial affairs with (3) no questions asked???

Did somebody bully you into doing this???

On page 13,

During the summer of 2006, PWM began applying for credit cards
and opening new lines of credit in the names of individual investors. Investors Were then contacted by a PWM representative, who directed the investor to draw down the maximum amount on all of the credit cards and to wire the funds to TRF or one of the Duncan Companies as an additional investment. Investors who questioned the wisdom of this strategy were told by, among others, McLeod, that PWM would stop making mortgage payments if they refused to cooperate.

Did you ask questions at that point? If not, at what point did you begin to ask questions? When the media broke the story? When did you realize you were duped?

I can understand lazy portfolio investors not asking a fund manager too many questions then finding out their 401(k) was raided. There is SEC protection for that though. I can't understand letting someone handle all your financial affairs (1) NO QUESTIONS ASKED and (2) BY DRAWING DOWN FUNDS FROM A CREDIT CARD.

Seriously, I'm sorry it happened but the world is not always a friendly place and you have learned a valuable lesson. Perhaps church/military/other were not the best places to learn about the realities of mankind.

 

[nostradamus]

I looked at the complaint. Oh my goodness.

Oh page 10,

To invest with PWM, prospective investors had to adhere to PWM's "three rules," which required investors to (1) commit to a three year investment; (2) turn over all of their financial affairs to PWM; and (3) ask no questions of PWM management regarding the use of their funds or credit.

(2) Turn over all of their financial affairs with (3) no questions asked???

Did somebody bully you into doing this???

On page 13,

During the summer of 2006, PWM began applying for credit cards
and opening new lines of credit in the names of individual investors. Investors Were then contacted by a PWM representative, who directed the investor to draw down the maximum amount on all of the credit cards and to wire the funds to TRF or one of the Duncan Companies as an additional investment. Investors who questioned the wisdom of this strategy were told by, among others, McLeod, that PWM would stop making mortgage payments if they refused to cooperate.

Did you ask questions at that point? If not, at what point did you begin to ask questions? When the media broke the story? When did you realize you were duped?

I can understand lazy portfolio investors not asking a fund manager too many questions then finding out their 401(k) was raided. There is SEC protection for that though. I can't understand letting someone handle all your financial affairs (1) NO QUESTIONS ASKED and (2) BY DRAWING DOWN FUNDS FROM A CREDIT CARD.

Seriously, I'm sorry it happened but the world is not always a friendly place and you have learned a valuable lesson. Perhaps church/military/other were not the best places to learn about the realities of mankind.

 

[Author]

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