Backdoor to socialized medicine?

[briansd1]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
You may argue that universal care is a universal right, but the reality is far more sanguine: We need to spend on only those things we need. Period. We need to cut defense and entitlement spending and recognize that we’re now saddled with an aging populace and a dwindling tax base. The government is not responsible for everything, and we need to rein in spending and do so now.[/quote]

I actually agree.

I’ll be honest here and admit that my support for health care reform is two fold.

1/ I’m an Obama fan and I want my team to win. I don’t want him to lose because that would undermine his presidency.

Surely, as a sport fan, you can understand that. 😉

2/ I think that health care is a universal right and everybody should have it. As Kennedy said, it’s the unfinished business of our society.

As far a entitlement is concerned, I’m all for extending the retirement age, cutting farm subsidies, cutting government pensions (even forcing government employees to a 401k type retirement) etc…

I do agree with Tom Friedman that our government is broken. It’ll take time to fix it. But the solution is not to obstruct what is right.

My definition of broken is simple. It is a system in which Republicans will be voted out for doing the right thing (raising taxes when needed) and Democrats will be voted out for doing the right thing (cutting services when needed). When your political system punishes lawmakers for the doing the right things, it is broken. That is why we need political innovation that takes America’s disempowered radical center and enables it to act in proportion to its true size, unconstrained by the two parties, interest groups and orthodoxies that have tied our politics in knots.

The radical center is “radical” in its desire for a radical departure from politics as usual. It advocates: raising taxes to close our budgetary shortfalls, but doing so with a spirit of equity and social justice; guaranteeing that every American is covered by health insurance, but with market reforms to really bring down costs; legally expanding immigration to attract more job-creators to America’s shores; increasing corporate tax credits for research and lowering corporate taxes if companies will move more manufacturing jobs back onshore; investing more in our public schools, while insisting on rising national education standards and greater accountability for teachers, principals and parents; massively investing in clean energy, including nuclear, while allowing more offshore drilling in the transition. You get the idea.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Brian: The problem here is you want to eat your cake and have it, too. When JFK (and, later, LBJ) pushed for a wider social safety net, the world and the US were very different places. The period from 1945 (WWII’s end) to about 1972, was an American Golden Age. We won’t ever see its like again. We had emerged virtually unscathed from WWII (when compared to Europe, England and Japan) and were dominant militarily, economically and politically. We had the ability to fund “guns and butter” programs (i.e. Vietnam AND the Great Society).

No more. We cannot argue about universal rights and expansion of programs when we can’t afford them. Its nuts. Yeah, I get you’re an Obama guy and I also get wanting your team to win (I coach football, remember?), but we’re pushing these programs when we have no real means to fund them and are getting way too close to the edge of the cliff for my liking, which was my point about many of the Tea Partyers having a valid point.

We need to get back on track with education, and infrastructure and REAL renewable energy programs. We need to cut defense, entitlements and the bailouts.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Brian: The problem here is you want to eat your cake and have it, too. When JFK (and, later, LBJ) pushed for a wider social safety net, the world and the US were very different places. The period from 1945 (WWII’s end) to about 1972, was an American Golden Age. We won’t ever see its like again. We had emerged virtually unscathed from WWII (when compared to Europe, England and Japan) and were dominant militarily, economically and politically. We had the ability to fund “guns and butter” programs (i.e. Vietnam AND the Great Society).

No more. We cannot argue about universal rights and expansion of programs when we can’t afford them. Its nuts. Yeah, I get you’re an Obama guy and I also get wanting your team to win (I coach football, remember?), but we’re pushing these programs when we have no real means to fund them and are getting way too close to the edge of the cliff for my liking, which was my point about many of the Tea Partyers having a valid point.

We need to get back on track with education, and infrastructure and REAL renewable energy programs. We need to cut defense, entitlements and the bailouts.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Brian: The problem here is you want to eat your cake and have it, too. When JFK (and, later, LBJ) pushed for a wider social safety net, the world and the US were very different places. The period from 1945 (WWII’s end) to about 1972, was an American Golden Age. We won’t ever see its like again. We had emerged virtually unscathed from WWII (when compared to Europe, England and Japan) and were dominant militarily, economically and politically. We had the ability to fund “guns and butter” programs (i.e. Vietnam AND the Great Society).

No more. We cannot argue about universal rights and expansion of programs when we can’t afford them. Its nuts. Yeah, I get you’re an Obama guy and I also get wanting your team to win (I coach football, remember?), but we’re pushing these programs when we have no real means to fund them and are getting way too close to the edge of the cliff for my liking, which was my point about many of the Tea Partyers having a valid point.

We need to get back on track with education, and infrastructure and REAL renewable energy programs. We need to cut defense, entitlements and the bailouts.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Brian: The problem here is you want to eat your cake and have it, too. When JFK (and, later, LBJ) pushed for a wider social safety net, the world and the US were very different places. The period from 1945 (WWII’s end) to about 1972, was an American Golden Age. We won’t ever see its like again. We had emerged virtually unscathed from WWII (when compared to Europe, England and Japan) and were dominant militarily, economically and politically. We had the ability to fund “guns and butter” programs (i.e. Vietnam AND the Great Society).

No more. We cannot argue about universal rights and expansion of programs when we can’t afford them. Its nuts. Yeah, I get you’re an Obama guy and I also get wanting your team to win (I coach football, remember?), but we’re pushing these programs when we have no real means to fund them and are getting way too close to the edge of the cliff for my liking, which was my point about many of the Tea Partyers having a valid point.

We need to get back on track with education, and infrastructure and REAL renewable energy programs. We need to cut defense, entitlements and the bailouts.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Brian: The problem here is you want to eat your cake and have it, too. When JFK (and, later, LBJ) pushed for a wider social safety net, the world and the US were very different places. The period from 1945 (WWII’s end) to about 1972, was an American Golden Age. We won’t ever see its like again. We had emerged virtually unscathed from WWII (when compared to Europe, England and Japan) and were dominant militarily, economically and politically. We had the ability to fund “guns and butter” programs (i.e. Vietnam AND the Great Society).

No more. We cannot argue about universal rights and expansion of programs when we can’t afford them. Its nuts. Yeah, I get you’re an Obama guy and I also get wanting your team to win (I coach football, remember?), but we’re pushing these programs when we have no real means to fund them and are getting way too close to the edge of the cliff for my liking, which was my point about many of the Tea Partyers having a valid point.

We need to get back on track with education, and infrastructure and REAL renewable energy programs. We need to cut defense, entitlements and the bailouts.

[SDEngineer]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Brian: The problem here is you want to eat your cake and have it, too. When JFK (and, later, LBJ) pushed for a wider social safety net, the world and the US were very different places. The period from 1945 (WWII’s end) to about 1972, was an American Golden Age. We won’t ever see its like again. We had emerged virtually unscathed from WWII (when compared to Europe, England and Japan) and were dominant militarily, economically and politically. We had the ability to fund “guns and butter” programs (i.e. Vietnam AND the Great Society).

No more. We cannot argue about universal rights and expansion of programs when we can’t afford them. Its nuts. Yeah, I get you’re an Obama guy and I also get wanting your team to win (I coach football, remember?), but we’re pushing these programs when we have no real means to fund them and are getting way too close to the edge of the cliff for my liking, which was my point about many of the Tea Partyers having a valid point.

We need to get back on track with education, and infrastructure and REAL renewable energy programs. We need to cut defense, entitlements and the bailouts.[/quote]

Or, of course, we could restore some of the massive tax cuts given to the top 2-5% over the past 30 years.

Part of the reason why we had the ability to fund those “Guns and Butter” programs and don’t any more (in fact, an enormous part of the reason) is the simple fact that over the past 30 years we’ve cut taxes on the middle class just a little bit, while cutting taxes on the incredibly wealthy by an enormous amount (in the 50’s, as an example, a corporate titan’s top income tax bracket would have been more than double his bracket today, and his capital gains would’ve been taxed much higher than todays rates as well).

[SDEngineer]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Brian: The problem here is you want to eat your cake and have it, too. When JFK (and, later, LBJ) pushed for a wider social safety net, the world and the US were very different places. The period from 1945 (WWII’s end) to about 1972, was an American Golden Age. We won’t ever see its like again. We had emerged virtually unscathed from WWII (when compared to Europe, England and Japan) and were dominant militarily, economically and politically. We had the ability to fund “guns and butter” programs (i.e. Vietnam AND the Great Society).

No more. We cannot argue about universal rights and expansion of programs when we can’t afford them. Its nuts. Yeah, I get you’re an Obama guy and I also get wanting your team to win (I coach football, remember?), but we’re pushing these programs when we have no real means to fund them and are getting way too close to the edge of the cliff for my liking, which was my point about many of the Tea Partyers having a valid point.

We need to get back on track with education, and infrastructure and REAL renewable energy programs. We need to cut defense, entitlements and the bailouts.[/quote]

Or, of course, we could restore some of the massive tax cuts given to the top 2-5% over the past 30 years.

Part of the reason why we had the ability to fund those “Guns and Butter” programs and don’t any more (in fact, an enormous part of the reason) is the simple fact that over the past 30 years we’ve cut taxes on the middle class just a little bit, while cutting taxes on the incredibly wealthy by an enormous amount (in the 50’s, as an example, a corporate titan’s top income tax bracket would have been more than double his bracket today, and his capital gains would’ve been taxed much higher than todays rates as well).

[SDEngineer]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Brian: The problem here is you want to eat your cake and have it, too. When JFK (and, later, LBJ) pushed for a wider social safety net, the world and the US were very different places. The period from 1945 (WWII’s end) to about 1972, was an American Golden Age. We won’t ever see its like again. We had emerged virtually unscathed from WWII (when compared to Europe, England and Japan) and were dominant militarily, economically and politically. We had the ability to fund “guns and butter” programs (i.e. Vietnam AND the Great Society).

No more. We cannot argue about universal rights and expansion of programs when we can’t afford them. Its nuts. Yeah, I get you’re an Obama guy and I also get wanting your team to win (I coach football, remember?), but we’re pushing these programs when we have no real means to fund them and are getting way too close to the edge of the cliff for my liking, which was my point about many of the Tea Partyers having a valid point.

We need to get back on track with education, and infrastructure and REAL renewable energy programs. We need to cut defense, entitlements and the bailouts.[/quote]

Or, of course, we could restore some of the massive tax cuts given to the top 2-5% over the past 30 years.

Part of the reason why we had the ability to fund those “Guns and Butter” programs and don’t any more (in fact, an enormous part of the reason) is the simple fact that over the past 30 years we’ve cut taxes on the middle class just a little bit, while cutting taxes on the incredibly wealthy by an enormous amount (in the 50’s, as an example, a corporate titan’s top income tax bracket would have been more than double his bracket today, and his capital gains would’ve been taxed much higher than todays rates as well).

[SDEngineer]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Brian: The problem here is you want to eat your cake and have it, too. When JFK (and, later, LBJ) pushed for a wider social safety net, the world and the US were very different places. The period from 1945 (WWII’s end) to about 1972, was an American Golden Age. We won’t ever see its like again. We had emerged virtually unscathed from WWII (when compared to Europe, England and Japan) and were dominant militarily, economically and politically. We had the ability to fund “guns and butter” programs (i.e. Vietnam AND the Great Society).

No more. We cannot argue about universal rights and expansion of programs when we can’t afford them. Its nuts. Yeah, I get you’re an Obama guy and I also get wanting your team to win (I coach football, remember?), but we’re pushing these programs when we have no real means to fund them and are getting way too close to the edge of the cliff for my liking, which was my point about many of the Tea Partyers having a valid point.

We need to get back on track with education, and infrastructure and REAL renewable energy programs. We need to cut defense, entitlements and the bailouts.[/quote]

Or, of course, we could restore some of the massive tax cuts given to the top 2-5% over the past 30 years.

Part of the reason why we had the ability to fund those “Guns and Butter” programs and don’t any more (in fact, an enormous part of the reason) is the simple fact that over the past 30 years we’ve cut taxes on the middle class just a little bit, while cutting taxes on the incredibly wealthy by an enormous amount (in the 50’s, as an example, a corporate titan’s top income tax bracket would have been more than double his bracket today, and his capital gains would’ve been taxed much higher than todays rates as well).

[SDEngineer]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Brian: The problem here is you want to eat your cake and have it, too. When JFK (and, later, LBJ) pushed for a wider social safety net, the world and the US were very different places. The period from 1945 (WWII’s end) to about 1972, was an American Golden Age. We won’t ever see its like again. We had emerged virtually unscathed from WWII (when compared to Europe, England and Japan) and were dominant militarily, economically and politically. We had the ability to fund “guns and butter” programs (i.e. Vietnam AND the Great Society).

No more. We cannot argue about universal rights and expansion of programs when we can’t afford them. Its nuts. Yeah, I get you’re an Obama guy and I also get wanting your team to win (I coach football, remember?), but we’re pushing these programs when we have no real means to fund them and are getting way too close to the edge of the cliff for my liking, which was my point about many of the Tea Partyers having a valid point.

We need to get back on track with education, and infrastructure and REAL renewable energy programs. We need to cut defense, entitlements and the bailouts.[/quote]

Or, of course, we could restore some of the massive tax cuts given to the top 2-5% over the past 30 years.

Part of the reason why we had the ability to fund those “Guns and Butter” programs and don’t any more (in fact, an enormous part of the reason) is the simple fact that over the past 30 years we’ve cut taxes on the middle class just a little bit, while cutting taxes on the incredibly wealthy by an enormous amount (in the 50’s, as an example, a corporate titan’s top income tax bracket would have been more than double his bracket today, and his capital gains would’ve been taxed much higher than todays rates as well).

[briansd1]

I agree with SDEngineer.

One reason we have all the financial speculation and innovation of late is because of those who can try to convert ordinary income to capital gains in order to lower their taxes.

That work has no economic value as it’s only arbitraging the tax rates.

The 50s and 60s were the “golden age” of modern America not because of the low tax rates on the wealthy.

We could also implement new taxes. Like an annual tax on TV like they do in parts of Europe. That would start a revolution as the couch potatoes get off their lazy asses and take up the pitchforks. That would be fun to watch. (just kidding).

[briansd1]

I agree with SDEngineer.

One reason we have all the financial speculation and innovation of late is because of those who can try to convert ordinary income to capital gains in order to lower their taxes.

That work has no economic value as it’s only arbitraging the tax rates.

The 50s and 60s were the “golden age” of modern America not because of the low tax rates on the wealthy.

We could also implement new taxes. Like an annual tax on TV like they do in parts of Europe. That would start a revolution as the couch potatoes get off their lazy asses and take up the pitchforks. That would be fun to watch. (just kidding).

[briansd1]

I agree with SDEngineer.

One reason we have all the financial speculation and innovation of late is because of those who can try to convert ordinary income to capital gains in order to lower their taxes.

That work has no economic value as it’s only arbitraging the tax rates.

The 50s and 60s were the “golden age” of modern America not because of the low tax rates on the wealthy.

We could also implement new taxes. Like an annual tax on TV like they do in parts of Europe. That would start a revolution as the couch potatoes get off their lazy asses and take up the pitchforks. That would be fun to watch. (just kidding).

[briansd1]

I agree with SDEngineer.

One reason we have all the financial speculation and innovation of late is because of those who can try to convert ordinary income to capital gains in order to lower their taxes.

That work has no economic value as it’s only arbitraging the tax rates.

The 50s and 60s were the “golden age” of modern America not because of the low tax rates on the wealthy.

We could also implement new taxes. Like an annual tax on TV like they do in parts of Europe. That would start a revolution as the couch potatoes get off their lazy asses and take up the pitchforks. That would be fun to watch. (just kidding).

[Author]

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