Are Men Success Objects?

[CDMA ENG]

[quote=UCGal]My husband is convinced he’s the sex object in our relationship. I don’t dissuade him of this notion. LOL.[/quote]

Typical Pisan…

😛

CE

[UCGal]

[quote=CDMA ENG][quote=UCGal]My husband is convinced he’s the sex object in our relationship. I don’t dissuade him of this notion. LOL.[/quote]

Typical Pisan…

😛

CE[/quote]
Mio marito è molto maschilismo. Lui è molto bello… nella sua testa.

(Can you tell I’m acing my Italian 101 class? – I can use present tense verbs, adjectives, prepositions – and possessive pronouns.)

[NotCranky]

CaRenter, You will just say any darn thing with complete disrespect of balance and objectivity and most of all men’s side of things. To me that’s anti-child and anti-family.

You can see here for instance that Warren Farrell a real Pariah.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/rahimkanani/2011/09/05/the-need-to-create-a-white-house-council-on-boys-to-men/

[CA renter]

[quote=Blogstar]CaRenter, You will just say any darn thing with complete disrespect of balance and objectivity and most of all men’s side of things. To me that’s anti-child and anti-family.

You can see here for instance that Warren Farrell a real Pariah.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/rahimkanani/2011/09/05/the-need-to-create-a-white-house-council-on-boys-to-men/%5B/quote%5D

You’ve shown nothing but disrespect for the work that women have traditionally done throughout history. Your post doesn’t dispute anything that I’ve brought up. The need for a “White House Council on Boys and Men” is no different from the need for a “White House Council on White People.” Both white people and men, in general, have been the oppressors of others for most of human history (men have almost always had power over women, across cultures, geography, and time).

I’m sure you’d like to pretend that men and women (or white people and people of color) have always had equal power and opportunity for all of human history history, but that reality only exists in your own mind.

Answer this: Why is it that the work that has traditionally been done for the benefit white people (or men) by people of color (or women) always been paid less, if it was to be paid at all, than the “work” done by white people (and men)? Why is it that people of color and women have traditionally been owned by (white) men? Why is it that people of color and women have had to fight just to have the right to own property of any kind…or vote…or control their own bodies? Please answer that honestly.

[flyer]

If either men or women have been “success objects” in prior generations, from what I’m reading, that might not hold for future generations by virtue of pure economics.

Since such a huge percentage of young people are so far “behind the curve” financially, with regard to establishing themselves in careers, buying their own homes, etc., etc.–perhaps we’ll find that, for the majority of the population going forward, the concept of choosing someone because of what they can provide you with in life may simply disappear because that option no longer exists.

[CA renter]

[quote=flyer]If either men or women have been “success objects” in prior generations, from what I’m reading, that might not hold for future generations by virtue of pure economics.

Since such a huge percentage of young people are so far “behind the curve” financially, with regard to establishing themselves in careers, buying their own homes, etc., etc.–perhaps we’ll find that, for the majority of the population going forward, the concept of choosing someone because of what they can provide you with in life may simply disappear because that option no longer exists.[/quote]

IMHO, it will become even more important, as more and more people realize that connections (including connections to wealthy spouses) matter more than hard work.

[FlyerInHi]

CAr, like I said before women have the power they can use if they wish.

But you will never enlighten men to come around to your point of view.

Just think of it as a trade in the free market.
Men have manhood and virility. Women have reproduction and eggs. The reality now in the power dynamics now is that women want men more (they want to marry men and they want their company more). Flip it around and women will have the power.

Maybe it’s different in your household, but generally speaking, a women can’t simply want to marry a man and have kids with him and then want him to get enlightened. Make him beg for it and he’ll give the woman what she wants. She could wait a long time… But, in the mean time, she could form a union and get all the women together and, in the long run, it could work.

Society has changed. The laws have changed. Men can’t force women anymore.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=flyer]If either men or women have been “success objects” in prior generations, from what I’m reading, that might not hold for future generations by virtue of pure economics.

Since such a huge percentage of young people are so far “behind the curve” financially, with regard to establishing themselves in careers, buying their own homes, etc., etc.–perhaps we’ll find that, for the majority of the population going forward, the concept of choosing someone because of what they can provide you with in life may simply disappear because that option no longer exists.[/quote]

I think you’re on to something. The millennials are becoming more like Scandinavia where people don’t really think of marriage and family in the traditional sense. They delay marriage and household formation. They like to live in urban enclaves, rent and just chill. The relationships are more egalitarian.

Of course, middle America and immigrants will continue to have kids in the more traditional sense.

[CA renter]

[quote=FlyerInHi]CAr, like I said before women have the power they can use if they wish.

But you will never enlighten men to come around to your point of view.

Just think of it as a trade in the free market.
Men have manhood and virility. Women have reproduction and eggs. The reality now in the power dynamics now is that women want men more (they want to marry men and they want their company more). Flip it around and women will have the power.

Maybe it’s different in your household, but generally speaking, a women can’t simply want to marry a man and have kids with him and then want him to get enlightened. Make him beg for it and he’ll give the woman what she wants. She could wait a long time… But, in the mean time, she could form a union and get all the women together and, in the long run, it could work.

Society has changed. The laws have changed. Men can’t force women anymore.[/quote]

I fully concur with what you are saying regarding the potential power that women have, and are often totally unaware of, and have mentioned before that we might start to move more in that direction as a society. Europe has been traveling down that path ahead of us.

It’s the same reason that I’ve brought up naming rights in other threads; why in the world do we continue with the patriarchal traditions of naming children after men if those men aren’t any more powerful or important than women? If marriage confers no real benefit to women (or men), then why even go there? We can all just buy sperm or contract with surrogates to make our own children; totally unencumbered by the wants, needs, or desires of another person who isn’t obligated, and/or doesn’t desire, to do anything for us?

Some feminists, possibly even BG, would argue that this IS the direction we should take, as it would pretty much eliminate the need for men at all. But is that what we really want for society? Is that really going to put us — all of us — in a better position than we’re in now? I just don’t think so.

[FlyerInHi]

CAr, you can’t have traditional housewife-husband relationships and more power for women.

If you demand power, men can just throw it back at you and demand to be house-husbands. That’s what the younger generations are thinking.

Workers are also wondering why parents get more slack at work than non-parents. Just not fair.

Society is changing.. now there’s have porn galore on the Net in 3D. Soon we’ll have virtual sex I’m sure.

Women desire the traditional family more. Men care a lot less about it and/or can delay it longer. I don’t think that women have a lot of bargaining power, unless they band together and form a union to restrict to supply of willing women.

It’s just a question of supply and demand.

BTW, the Spanish way of hyphenating last names is very good and fair to both sexes.

[flyer]

Good observations, FIH, and CAR, I agree connections rule.

This, as my wife reminds me that Romance novels are now the #1 genre in the world, with billions in sales.

Interesting dichotomies to be sure.

[CA renter]

[quote=FlyerInHi]CAr, you can’t have traditional housewife-husband relationships and more power for women.

If you demand power, men can just throw it back at you and demand to be house-husbands. That’s what the younger generations are thinking.

Workers are also wondering why parents get more slack at work than non-parents. Just not fair.

Society is changing.. now there’s have porn galore on the Net in 3D. Soon we’ll have virtual sex I’m sure.

Women desire the traditional family more. Men care a lot less about it and/or can delay it longer. I don’t think that women have a lot of bargaining power, unless they band together and form a union to restrict to supply of willing woman.

It’s just a question of supply and demand.[/quote]

I’ve never advocated for only allowing women to be SAHPs. We’ve know a few couples where the dad was the primary caretaker/SAHP and we even know some homeschooling families where the dads are the SAH/teachers. I think it’s awesome.

There are many, many women out there would want no part of being a SAHP, and there are some incredibly nurturing dads who would love nothing more than to stay home with the kids. There are families where the woman earns more than the man, so it totally makes sense, all else being equal, for her to continue working while he stays home.

But there is the reality of biology, too. Men don’t get pregnant, don’t have to go on bedrest if there are complications, don’t nurse (while UCGal was able to successfully pull off breastfeeding while working, most of the working women I know stopped BFing because it was just too much work/inconvenience), etc. Men aren’t as hormonally/physically/emotionally attached to their offspring as women are, in general. It’s just different.

As for parents being treated differently at work, I also agree. While working in the corporate world, I really resented having to do other people’s work because they had to leave at 4:45 p.m. to pick up their kids, or when they would often leave early for dr’s appointments, plays, etc. And some of these people were men, including those other managers who were making *more* than I was “because they had families to support.” And then there’s the issue of medical insurance, etc. No, it’s not fair, but I’m not sure there’s much we can do about it.

[CA renter]

[quote=flyer]Good observations, FIH, and CAR, I agree connections rule.

This, as my wife reminds me that Romance novels are now the #1 genre in the world, with billions in sales.

Interesting dichotomies to be sure.[/quote]

Interesting about romance novels. Other than Gone With the Wind, I’ve never read them. Does your wife happen to know if this trend been changing over time?

[FlyerInHi]

Who you think are buying the romance novels.

I share an Amazon Prime account with a good friend. His teenage girl buys all the romance novels on kindle. The boy doesn’t read novels.

Like I said, supply and demand. Women are romantics and want to traditional family. Men are less interested. And there’s no societal pressure for men to be the providers anymore.

CAr, I’m afraid you want your cake and eat it too. Sounds like you have that already in your family, but I’m afraid that women in general can’t have what you have.

[CDMA ENG]

[quote=UCGal][quote=CDMA ENG][quote=UCGal]My husband is convinced he’s the sex object in our relationship. I don’t dissuade him of this notion. LOL.[/quote]

Typical Pisan…

😛

CE[/quote]
Mio marito è molto maschilismo. Lui è molto bello… nella sua testa.

(Can you tell I’m acing my Italian 101 class? – I can use present tense verbs, adjectives, prepositions – and possessive pronouns.)[/quote]

Oh man… You are challenging my limited Italian…

Right now my phrase of choice is…

“CHE PUTZ BAMBINO! Oh Ma’ron!”

😛

CE

[Author]

Posts