[quote=harvey][quote=CA renter]Well, since the same subject was brought up again — by someone who appears to be a new poster — it would be logical to link to threads where the topic was already discussed, no?
————–
Have you not said that public employees should be converted from defined benefit plans to defined contribution plans? And have you not suggested that the up-front contribution amounts should remain the same? Are you actually claiming that the two are of equal value?
The only liar around here is you, pri. Crawl back into your hole, troll.[/quote]
Your “proof” of something that I said is an article from a public sector lobby?
FAIL
Although everyone here but you gets this, let me spell it out:
– Given the same initial investment, defined benefit and defined contribution plans have the same value. Any (objective) accountant will tell you that.
– The only reason defined contribution could be “worth” more is because there is stupidity or outright shenanigans at play.
– The only difference between the two plans is that one comes with a promise to pay. In the case of public sector pensions, the entire burden of this promise is on the public. Any additional “value” in the plan will be taken from the taxpayer when the bill is due.
The fact that you insist that the same amount of money invested can somehow be magically more valuable because of the “promise” of a guaranteed return betrays your ignorance and your agenda.
Read the title of this thread. The pensions are UNFUNDED. The “additional value” you reference does not exist.
Promises are so much easier to make when someone else has to keep them.
Nevertheless, you have failed to provide any of my posts where I claim that public sector compensation should be lower. Until you do so, it as established fact that you are a liar.
Your credibility is shot (it was years ago) but on keep cutting and pasting…[/quote]
That’s correct, a DC plan is far less valuable than a DB plan. You’ve clearly advocated for reduced compensation for public sector workers. Anyone with at least two brain cells to rub together will tell you this. One of the biggest arguments (including yours) on this site is: “I don’t get a DB pension, why should they?” IOW, it is well known that a DB pension plan is more valuable than a DC plan. Of course, most people seem to forget the fact that they DO have a defined benefit plan…it’s called Social Security. Funny how so many people don’t grasp that fact.
As for the claim that the pension funds are “unfunded,” if you can find a pension fund that is unfunded, I’d like to see it. Pension funds can be over-funded, under-funded, or fully-funded. While there might be some anomaly in a red state where the Privatization Movement is trying to make a point by siphoning all the money out of a pension fund, I’m unaware of any “unfunded” pension funds in the real world.
You’re also clearly ignorant about the differences between DB and DC pensions. DC plans have higher administrative costs and lower returns; DC plans have access to fewer investment options; DC plans don’t pool longevity risk; DC plans have lower contribution limits than DB plans (for employer and employee); and DB plans can remain in higher-yielding and more diversified investments and can better manage the ups and downs of the market over time because they are continuously funded by the contributions of current employees and their employers, and benefits are staggered well into the future (pooled investment risks over time and number of people).
You’re also wrong about who bears the risks. As I’ve already mentioned on the first page of this thread, public employees are *already* taking the hit for the additional contributions to pension funds, not only because of the items I’ve mentioned there, but because they are taking pay cuts/pay freezes, and losing other benefits because of the additional costs of their pensions. As we speak, they are working on ways to share the costs of the “unfunded liabilities” (the difference between actuarially assumed rates of return and actual returns) with employees if return rates don’t make up the difference. Additionally, we can reduce the waste, fraud, and abuse that goes on in the public sector…like building a road or bridge to a well-connected “friend” of a politician. Note the stories posted by phaster to see how the corruption was specifically concentrated around entities in the PRIVATE SECTOR. No unions or boots-on-the-ground public employees were mentioned in the story where millions were diverted to various parties.
But I’d like to hear more about how my credibility was shot. Shot by whom? By you???? By the person who has absolutely no knowledge about, or experience with, the public sector? The person to whom I had to explain how pension formulas worked? The person to whom I had to explain how the benefits were paid, and by which entities? The person who makes personal attacks rather than addressing the actual issues in an intelligent and informed manner? The person who describes cited facts, statistics, studies, etc. as “cut and paste”? That’s the person who’s “discredited” me? You’re a quaint troll.
