You’ve stated and/or implied that anyone who believes in a god/higher power is delusional,
[/quote]
What I said was that people have delusions all the time. I said that in response to this:
“ There are many people who would swear on their firstborns’ lives that they have seen evidence of reincarnation or some sort of miracle that justifies their beliefs, too. Some things cannot be explained by science as we know it.”
You seem to think that somebody’s “vision,” or whatever they’ve seen, is evidence of god. I’m saying that it was a delusion. I’m saying that if there’s real evidence, it won’t just apply inside one person’s head.
What I think of religious people is that they are unable to see reality as the evidence presents it rather than how they want to see it.
Delusions is how I describe the things you say people have seen, but which there is apparently no evidence of other than their “vision.”
[quote=CA renter]
that they don’t live in “reality” because if their experiences and opinions don’t jive with yours.
[/quote]
Because their experiences and opinions don’t jive with mine? That’s not why I think they’re having trouble accepting reality. I think they’re having trouble accepting reality because they believe in something that there’s no evidence of other than what’s in their head.
CA renter, do you think the guy whose god is Goldie is living in reality?
[quote=CA renter]
You’ve said that they are intellectually inferior,
[/quote]
You are exasperating. We’ve had this discussion already.
I challenge you to show me where I said that.
[quote=CA renter]
suffer delusions, see hallucinations,
[/quote]
See above about delusions
[quote=CA renter]
and can’t accept scientific proof of something…whatever that’s supposed to be, I’m not sure.
[/quote]
I haven’t used the word proof. In this entire thread. So I’m not sure what you’re talking about.
[quote=CA renter]
I’m not making anything up. You’re implying these things in your posts, if not stating them directly. See here, too…
[/quote]
Ok.
You said or implied that I said that people who believe in god are intellectually inferior. Show me where I said or implied that.
You said or implied that I was insisting that there is absolutely no god. Show me where I said or implied that.
If you can’t show me where I said or implied those things, you’re making stuff up.
[quote=CA renter]
If this is not what you’re trying to say, then what, exactly, are you trying to say or imply?
[/quote]
I’ll summarize:
There is basically no evidence for god. Anybody who believes in god believes in god because they (very much) want to. This desire to believe in god is strong enough that, because of a flaw they have (not necessarily an intellectual flaw – more of an emotional one), they are unable to see that reality, as it presents itself with evidence, does not support more than the tiniest likelihood of there actually being a god.
[quote=CA renter]
Evidence of what, exactly? Evolution?
[/quote]
Evidence about how the universe is. If there’s no evidence that the stuff in your hand that looks like dirt is gold, but you believe that it’s gold, then you’re not believing what the evidence tells you. If you believe that there’s a god despite a lack of any evidence, then you’re not believing what the evidence tells you.
[quote=CA renter]
Do you honestly believe that all spiritual/religious/spiritual-agnostic people think that the earth was created in six earth days?
[/quote]
No. Of course not. Why would you think I think that?
[quote=CA renter]
Specifically, what evidence are you referring to that would make spiritual people delusional or unwilling to accept scientific facts? I hope you realize that spiritualism includes ideas and beliefs that go far beyond theories about the origin of the universe.
[/quote]
I’m not talking about evidence for something. I talking about lack of evidence for something. If there’s no evidence for something, but you believe in it anyway because you want to, then that’s not basing your estimation of reality on evidence. That’s basing your estimation of reality on what you want it to be.
[quote=CA renter]
Perhaps you and I don’t have the same ideas about what spiritualism/religion/belief in a higher power means. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you appear to be claiming that God/a higher power doesn’t exist, and that anyone who believes in a god/higher power can’t accept that science somehow contradicts their beliefs (please explain how it contradicts a person’s belief in a higher power/god, as I have yet to read about any scientific studies that would claim to do so).
[/quote]
You’re wrong. I’m not claiming a god doesn’t exist. I’m saying there’s no evidence for one.
[quote=CA renter]
And when I talk about people’s experiences and knowledge, I’m talking about very REAL, physical experiences, often with multiple witnesses. They are not delusional, nor are they experiencing hallucinations.
[/quote]
Virtually every claim of witnessing a “miracle” can be easily debunked. Unless you want to believe it so bad that you look askew at the evidence. Add up all the “miracles” that have held up to scientific scrutiny, if you can find any, and the evidence for an omnipotent being comes up next to nothing.
[quote=CA renter]
It’s sad that you think that people who don’t believe as you do have something wrong with them, or that they are intellectually inferior (you made a similar statement on the vaccination thread which appeared to be aimed at me, too, which is why I had to mention the IQ thing in response to your ridiculous assertion — something I do not like to do). [/quote]
For someone who claims to have such a high IQ, you sure don’t read very well. I did not call you or anyone else intellectually inferior. In this thread or that one.
[quote=CA renter]
Many people who are far, far more intelligent than you (not claiming to be one of those people, though that’s entirely possible, too) will have different opinions than you do. It’s neither good nor bad; just a fact. It doesn’t make them any less intelligent or accepting of facts than you.
[/quote]
What about the guy who’s god is Goldie? Is he less accepting of the facts than you, CA renter?
[quote=CA renter]
I’m not making anything up,
[/quote]
Then show me where I called anyone intellectually inferior. And show me where I said there’s absolutely no god.
[quote=CA renter]
and I would never have to do anything of the sort to “help me keep up with you.” I do just fine as it is.
[/quote]
We’ll just have to agree do disagree on that.
[quote=CA renter]
Perhaps you’re not making yourself clear enough regarding your assertion that religious/spiritual people are delusional and ignorant when it comes to science. You’ve used no facts, evidence, or logic to back up your claims, just name-called. You’re not making a compelling argument.
[/quote]
Perhaps I hadn’t been clear enough for you. As I said above, I claim no evidence that there’s no god. Such evidence wouldn’t even be possible. I’m saying that there is basically no evidence that there is a god, and I’m saying that to believe it would require both a strong desire to believe it and an emotional flaw which results in a person believing what he wants to believe rather than what the evidence shows.
[quote=CA renter]
Instead of trying to make personal attacks,
[/quote]
If you don’t make stuff up, I won’t attack you.
[quote=CA renter]
why not specify and define the differences of opinions and use evidence (not just claiming that people are foolish or delusional…that’s no more scientific or factual than claiming that the earth was created in six days) to support your position(s) and/or refute the other debater’s position(s). That would be more productive.[/quote]
As I said, evidence that there’s no god is impossible. There is basically no evidence for god. If a person claims to believe something outrageous for which there is no evidence, we view him as though there’s something wrong with him. Unless that belief involves god. In which case we say, “oh, yeah. He believes in a supernatural, universe-encompassing, omnipotent, magical being in the sky for which there’s no evidence. Ok, that’s fine. He’s ok. Nothing to see here.”
