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  • July 29, 2014 at 8:31 AM #21203
    scaredyclassic
    Participant

    I’m Jewish but in general not very biased toward israel, if at all. Philosophically I think I align with the 19th c. Jewish anti Zionists who don’t see a Jewish state as compatible with certain religious principles. But then again, I’m kind of a dope. I’m not really sure what the hell is going on over there. I’ve been reading a lot of Internet screeds over the last few days regarding history , fault, problems…still not sure.

    It sounds like major real estate problems with Jews buying up land at good prices for years in the early 1900s under turk ish rule , leading to Palestinians who felt dispossessed, but who were actually victims of a kind of early gentrification program, losing leaseholds in land sales, and culminating in a war for independence in 1948 started by all the Arabs in the area who didnt go for the western drawn peace boundaries, were favored to win by numbers and arms , but unexpectedly got their asses kicked by non western backed no-fucking around israeli fighters who were able to buy shitloads of weaponry from (oddly) Czechoslovokia with their own cash. THE arabs ended up with way less land than if the deal had been accepted by the palestinians. The Palestinian refugees from that war are the dispossessed group in trouble in Gaza today?

    My sympathies ever since I was young were always with the Palestinians since I always emotionally align with the underdog and the oppressed. On the other hand i remember being impressed with tales of seriously badass israeli military dudes who seemed so different from the weak jews i knew at home. Occasionally I would meet one and they seemed…strong. and a little wired… It’s difficult for me to see how this would not have somehow worked out over a period of 70 years…it all seems shameful yet perhaps i am naive and pampered. Perhaps I understand nothing about survival.

    July 29, 2014 at 5:00 PM #777104
    CA renter
    Participant

    Tough situation for everyone involved.

    The Israelis I used to work for were the badass type, as were the Israeli-owned security firms they worked/contracted with. All were high-ranking officers in the Israeli military. They took me under their wings as a sort of hybrid Jew (1/4 ancestry, not religious) and wanted me to study Israeli/Jewish history, etc.

    Prior to that, I was staunchly pro-Israel, courtesy of my strict Southern Baptist education (very, very pro-Israel). When I started reading about it, I couldn’t find the part where the Jews were done wrong WRT Palestine. It turned my whole understanding of Israel on its head. Funny how doing actual research will do that to you, as opposed to just believing the popular rhetoric and propaganda.

    July 29, 2014 at 7:45 PM #777105
    XBoxBoy
    Participant

    The situation is pretty complex, and full of people trying to right wrongs with more wrongs. An interesting book that looks at this from the point of view of a Palestinian man who was dispossessed from his home and an Israeli woman who grew up in the home after the Palestinians were driven out is, The Lemon Tree by Sandy Tolen. From what I can make of the situation, there is no good side or bad side, just multiple sides that can’t work out a peace between themselves.

    July 29, 2014 at 8:11 PM #777106
    paramount
    Participant

    This is happening largely because the US is less able to project leadership around the world.

    Also, AIPAC has WAY to much influence in the US.

    July 29, 2014 at 8:13 PM #777107
    moneymaker
    Participant

    I learned a long time ago that we gave nukes to Israel back in the 60’s, now that is scary. Does it detour the Palestinians? Guess not. But a recipe for eventual disaster in my opinion. It’s never good to have nukes where turmoil exists!

    July 29, 2014 at 10:04 PM #777109
    scaredyclassic
    Participant

    i guess the israeli thinking is in 1948, they were willing to do a fair split, including a big independent arab state, but the arab nations expected an easy victory, so why not start a war, and they ganged up and rolled in with more troops and better arms. lots of palestinians left their homes as the conventional wisdom was the arabs were going to go in and kick ass and all the palestnians would d just go home shortly and get the spoils. when that didn’t work out, either because the jewish fighters were fiercer, smarter, or just plain crazier, or some combination thereof, and the palestinans were dispossessed by the war that they were on the losing side of, the Jewish position was, fuck them, we won the war. at the time, that probably seemed reasonable.

    the arabs didn’t particularly want to absorb the losing palestinaians, although many were absorbed by neighboring countries, inclduing a bunch in Jordan and Kuwait, where they were mistreated, but keeping a good solid chunk of Palestinan people wanting Israel gone was a way to keep conflict alive.

    it all just doesn’t feel kosher … there can be no real Christian or jewish state.

    it just doesn’t jibe with the text.

    i just wonder if there isn’t some PR advantage to Israel at the point to maybe turning the other cheek and taking a loss. build up a little goodwill…

    July 29, 2014 at 10:13 PM #777111
    paramount
    Participant

    No one wins
    It’s a war of man,
    No one wins
    It’s a war of man.

    July 29, 2014 at 10:18 PM #777113
    scaredyclassic
    Participant

    [quote=paramount]No one wins
    It’s a war of man,
    No one wins
    It’s a war of man.[/quote]

    well, actually, body count wise, israel is kinda winning.

    July 29, 2014 at 10:20 PM #777114
    paramount
    Participant

    [quote=scaredyclassic][quote=paramount]No one wins
    It’s a war of man,
    No one wins
    It’s a war of man.[/quote]

    well, actually, body count wise, israel is kinda winning.[/quote]

    True, and more specifically children body count wise.

    July 29, 2014 at 10:21 PM #777112
    scaredyclassic
    Participant

    interestingly, israel has a significantly higher life exectancy than the USA even though theyre at war and generally stressed out a little. even though im not crazy about Israel, i think i want to be more like Israel. Fuck others and their unenforceable claims; im signing up for Krav Maga class. i want to walk around ina general state of readiness to kill you with my bare hands and whatever shit is lying around. and live longer, on my feet, not on my knees, lik e an ISraeli soldier, not some cretin whining about Obamacare. i believe just sheer badass Israeliesque mentality extends your life five years. being a whiny scared piece of crap like me is deadly.

    the USA life expecancy is down there with Cuba, some fucked up, depressed, crappy beatdown country. maaybe we dont need health care. maybe we need a better attitude.

    althoug health care is pretty good in Israel, and I think free…

    July 29, 2014 at 10:23 PM #777115
    scaredyclassic
    Participant

    i think the plan is like bombing Dresden, you just make war so unpalatable that people give in.

    but i t seems more like the early Americans running roughshod over the natives. not a fair fight. just grinding them down mercilessly…

    July 29, 2014 at 10:34 PM #777116
    Hatfield
    Participant

    It’s unfortunate that AIPAC has made it impossible for any US politician to take any kind of remotely balanced approach to the region.

    The situation is a total, intractable mess. At the same time, when you carve yourself a country out of somebody else’s land, you gotta expect there’s gonna be trouble. It would be like Texas gaining its independence by seceding from the union, only to have France come and claim it because parts of Texas were once French.

    July 29, 2014 at 11:20 PM #777117
    CDMA ENG
    Participant

    [quote=paramount]No one wins
    It’s a war of man,
    No one wins
    It’s a war of man.[/quote]

    You’re so far right is ridiculous and now your quoting a lefty?

    CE

    July 29, 2014 at 11:55 PM #777118
    paramount
    Participant

    [quote=CDMA ENG][quote=paramount]No one wins
    It’s a war of man,
    No one wins
    It’s a war of man.[/quote]

    You’re so far right is ridiculous and now your quoting a lefty?

    CE[/quote]

    I would only seem far right to a far left liberal.

    And no we won’t be meeting in the middle.

    July 29, 2014 at 11:56 PM #777119
    paramount
    Participant

    Interesting take on the ‘conflict’:

    Obliterating Gaza

    http://youtu.be/8ILrM7yh1v8

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